54175 replies to this topic

[jak123]

That is what I thought as well. Obito and Rin was another parallel people tend to forget about and again this helped point towards an NS ending. You can tell Rin realized something after Obito's supposed death that maybe she had someone special all along next to her but it was too late. Naruto and Sakura were supposed to be the successful pairing compared to Obito and Rin.

Yeah one thing that pissed me off was that there were so many groups of 3 similar to Naruto/Sakura/Sasuke and if they had done it right, then it would have broken a cycle. In the end though, they just continued it.

[griff142]

Yeah one thing that pissed me off was that there were so many groups of 3 similar to Naruto/Sakura/Sasuke and if they had done it right, then it would have broken a cycle. In the end though, they just continued it.

Yeah another big one was Tsunade and Jirayia becuase Jirayia loved Tsunade but always put herself first which is alot like Naruto's feelings for Sakura. You can tell that Tsunade loved Jirayia back but never got a chance to tell him.

It does make me mad too because at the end the parallels were pointless and the cycle would continue. That makes the ending for everybody that much more sad.

[KClaws_2]

Jiraiya and Tsunade alone was the parallel that should have sealed the deal on what was going to happen between Naruto and Sakura. Jiraiya and Tsunade were from an actual Japanese tall tale called "The Gallant Tales of Jiraiya" where they were a married couple. That gave me the impression in the Naruto world they were SUPPOSED to have hooked up, but didn't, and NS would succeed where they would fail. 

And pro-enders would go "Oh, Kishimoto is more original than that..." Original? Maybe. Clever? No.

[jak123]

Jiraiya and Tsunade alone was the parallel that should have sealed the deal on what was going to happen between Naruto and Sakura. Jiraiya and Tsunade were from an actual Japanese tall tale called "The Gallant Tales of Jiraiya" where they were a married couple. That gave me the impression in the Naruto world they were SUPPOSED to have hooked up, but didn't, and NS would succeed where they would fail. 

And pro-enders would go "Oh, Kishimoto is more original than that..." Original? Maybe. Clever? No.

Yeah that moment they had before he went off to fight Pain showed it was pretty obvious that Tsunade had feelings for him as well. 

 

It's not about originality or whatever, if done well even the most "cliche" (hate that word) can be good. Kishimoto made all of these parallels that ended in tragedy. Naruto and Sakura getting together should have ended that cycle. That would have clever.

Edited by jak123, 17 March 2018 - 05:21 PM.

[DrK]

Sakura also had a weird connection to Obito. She has this kind of rapport with him that I found kind of odd. But if Obito is supposed to be like Naruto it makes a lot of sense. Also it's kinda funny that Sakura can't assert herself around Sasuke at all, but she can joke around with Obito.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Sakura also had a weird connection to Obito. She has this kind of rapport with him that I found kind of odd. But if Obito is supposed to be like Naruto it makes a lot of sense. Also it's kinda funny that Sakura can't assert herself around Sasuke at all, but she can joke around with Obito.

 

It just goes to show how Sakura can be her REAL SELF around Naruto or others like him.

[DrK]

 

It just goes to show how Sakura can be her REAL SELF around Naruto or others like him.

But isn't Obito much scarier than Sasuke? We saw what he did to Konan, Naruto's parents, and everyone else. Sakura can joke around with someone like that, but she can't handle the fact that Sasuke doesn't care for her? It's just nonsensical. Konan would have backhanded Sasuke if he did any of the things to her that he did to Sakura. It goes back to what I was talking about in that thread I made about Sakura's decisions regarding Sasuke making no sense. They gave her all this development to tell us that she is this kind of character now, and then suddenly, she isn't.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

But isn't Obito much scarier than Sasuke? We saw what he did to Konan, Naruto's parents, and everyone else. Sakura can joke around with someone like that, but she can't handle the fact that Sasuke doesn't care for her? It's just nonsensical. Konan would have backhanded Sasuke if he did any of the things to her that he did to Sakura. It goes back to what I was talking about in that thread I made about Sakura's decisions regarding Sasuke making no sense. They gave her all this development to tell us that she is this kind of character now, and then suddenly, she isn't.

 

It just makes no sense to me in the long run, man. =/

[griff142]

It just makes no sense to me in the long run, man. =/

It's call the magic hand waving. It's popular in Hollywood.
Kishi:"Hey man do you know why that makes sense?"
Us:"Why does that makes sense? Why did you change everything that you wrote?"
Kishi: " I will tell you why. * hand waving engage* that's why."

[DrK]

 

It just makes no sense to me in the long run, man. =/

I forgot that the only reason why she was even willing to work with Obito is because he saved Naruto's life. That meant so much to her that she was willing to team up with him and even f***ing smile at him. But nope, she only cares for Sasuke. Sasuke is who she's all about. Asinine.

Edited by DrK, 18 March 2018 - 05:54 AM.

[KClaws_2]

Yeah that moment they had before he went off to fight Pain showed it was pretty obvious that Tsunade had feelings for him as well. 

 

It's not about originality or whatever, if done well even the most "cliche" (hate that word) can be good. Kishimoto made all of these parallels that ended in tragedy. Naruto and Sakura getting together should have ended that cycle. That would have clever.

Edited by KClaws_2, 18 March 2018 - 05:49 AM.

[Phantom_999]

Again if cliches were so "horrible" why do the masses still keep it popular? it's an never ending loop. fictional story telling is full of cliches, the audience complain and make rage/troll comments on it, the cliches still pop up left, right, up, down, and centre. I was discussing this on another thread actually  

 

Mm here's the thing. WHY is "crap" popular? Why do people complain about how much something sucks kitten but watch/read/view it (in any shape or form) anyway? Is it because they are masochists? is it that they enjoy taking a dump on something popular to differentiate themselves from others? I can't say I know, but I know for a fact that if I were to actually dislike something I wouldn't follow it anymore. So why can't others? could it be that despite the complaining and stating it is crap, there is something that makes them come back to watch/read/view the publication or serialization week after week month after month, and year after year? here is a better question. if there is so many opinions on how something is crap why do creators keep making it? is it because that underneath all that "nay saying" it actually still garners a lot attention? 

 

Here is another thing to consider. what is "CRAP" in fictional story telling? To my experience it has always been that it is either cliché, or something that is inconsistent. Sometimes it is both even. But let me address clichés. Why is something cliché? is it something that is done so many times that the audience gets sick of it? if so, here is the paradoxical question? HOW did clichés exist in the first place? apparently they must have been done enough times FOR an audience to get sick of them, which again goes back to why creators create the clichés in the first place if audiences didn't enjoy them? Sure there is the argument that that good original ideas are always getting shafted because it lacks popularity or it is feared to never be popular, but here is another paradoxical question. IF there is so much demand for some originality and not to see clichés why don't we see more original ideas, or better yet, why aren't those original ideas MUCH MORE POPULAR since there is such a demand for them? Why is it that at the end of the day, it is clichés that win popularity and viewership/readership? Also are original ideas truly so original, with the billions of years that human beings have been making fictional/artistic content? Just something to think about, in my opinion. In regards to inconsistency, that is just bad storytelling if it actually IS the same person that is starting and finishing the work, nothing to say about that.

Edited by Phantom_999, 18 March 2018 - 10:30 AM.

[KClaws_2]

Again if cliches were so "horrible" why do the masses still keep it popular? it's an never ending loop. fictional story telling is full of cliches, the audience complain and make rage/troll comments on it, the cliches still pop up left, right, up, down, and centre. I was discussing this on another thread actually  

 

There's a narrative that cliches must be avoided at all costs, but I'd say avoiding a said cliche without setting your story to back it up is even worse. Don't like the idea of main hero hooking up with main heroine? Okay. Main hero hooking up with some other character that had little to no screentime despite heavy hints of mutual feelings between the two main characters? Sorry, but no. You can put all the twists in your story that you want, but it has to add up in the end.

 

Game of Thrones has a bunch of twists and turns that makes it very hard to predict where it's going. But most of what I've seen still adds up to this point. I can say I wasn't expecting something, but I can't say it came out of nowhere. 

 

Compared to other shonen manga, I'd say Naruto and Sakura are not that cliche. Most manga has the heroine more or less liking the protagonist from the beginning but refusing to admit it, and it's generally fairly predictable they will end up together. NaruSaku started out with a heroine who didn't like him at first, had the main hero put aside his own feelings for her, time taken to show their personalities mesh well together, and use previous generations to set up what should have been. 

 

And just because something's different doesn't mean it's a good idea. You could end a story where the bad guys win, but I doubt many people would gravitate towards that. You could have a story about realistic martial arts and near the conclusion hint at what we see in video games. I could probably think of other things, but there's a reason so many formulas are repeated: when done right, THEY WORK. 

[Phantom_999]

Exactly, Cliches are not the problem. It is how they are handled that makes or breaks a work. and I've stated before original ideas may not be that original due to how long humans have been making stories.  Anything at seems original be have been done before by someone else but it is otherwise not acknowledged or publicly known. And original ideas may not be a good idea if it is not handled right

[rikakim94]

There's a narrative that cliches must be avoided at all costs, but I'd say avoiding a said cliche without setting your story to back it up is even worse. Don't like the idea of main hero hooking up with main heroine? Okay. Main hero hooking up with some other character that had little to no screentime despite heavy hints of mutual feelings between the two main characters? Sorry, but no. You can put all the twists in your story that you want, but it has to add up in the end.

 

Game of Thrones has a bunch of twists and turns that makes it very hard to predict where it's going. But most of what I've seen still adds up to this point. I can say I wasn't expecting something, but I can't say it came out of nowhere. 

 

Compared to other shonen manga, I'd say Naruto and Sakura are not that cliche. Most manga has the heroine more or less liking the protagonist from the beginning but refusing to admit it, and it's generally fairly predictable they will end up together. NaruSaku started out with a heroine who didn't like him at first, had the main hero put aside his own feelings for her, time taken to show their personalities mesh well together, and use previous generations to set up what should have been. 

 

And just because something's different doesn't mean it's a good idea. You could end a story where the bad guys win, but I doubt many people would gravitate towards that. You could have a story about realistic martial arts and near the conclusion hint at what we see in video games. I could probably think of other things, but there's a reason so many formulas are repeated: when done right, THEY WORK. 

 

Well i saw a disney movie called hunch back or notredame, in that movie the herione made it clear she did not love the main character in a romantic way and loved someone else. The main herione esmalrada and her lover had plently of development of there relationship till the point its believable. The main character queismoto learn how to move on from his one sided attraction from the herione and be happy for esmalrada and her lover.

 

Same thing kinda happened with star wars except luke and leia became siblings at the last minute. 

 

If kishi wanted to subvert the main hero gets the main herione cilche he should have put more effort into it. In which he didn't which leads me to believe that he wanted the hero getting the girl cliche. 

[griff142]

Well i saw a disney movie called hunch back or notredame, in that movie the herione made it clear she did not love the main character in a romantic way and loved someone else. The main herione esmalrada and her lover had plently of development of there relationship till the point its believable. The main character queismoto learn how to move on from his one sided attraction from the herione and be happy for esmalrada and her lover.
 
Same thing kinda happened with star wars except luke and leia became siblings at the last minute. 
 
If kishi wanted to subvert the main hero gets the main herione cilche he should have put more effort into it. In which he didn't which leads me to believe that he wanted the hero getting the girl cliche.

Yeah, I will repeat myself again. Naruto and Sakura had 15 years of development together and the writing on the wall was clearly NS. We enjoyed Naruto not just
for that pairing but because we liked the story which should have been the forefront of it all and not the pairings. We all knew how the formula worked so we just enjoyed NS gradually while it was morphing, along with the plot.

[LuckyChi7]

Last month there was an issue of Spider-Man: Renew Your Vows, but I couldn't really find much of a comparison to do with Boruto, but this issues #17  I was able to find something.

 

 

 

 

 

 

As you guys know The Boruto movie was essentially about Boruto and Naruto something I thought could've worked had the third act of the movie didn't brush it off for the action against Momoshiki. Anyway we have this moment after Boruto passes the  second part of the chunin exams, and prior we had Naruto send an email to Boruto, and now he shows up to congratulate him on his victory. The scene itself isn't bad necessarily, but prior this scene we've only had the scene wherre Naruto sends Boruto the email, I think had we have seen a scene or two of Boruto and Naruto being spending time face to face instead of Boruto being pissed about not getting attention  and of course hiding the fact that he's cheating in the chunin exams (in context of the movie since it came before the anime) it could've worked. 

 

 

 

 

 

Now let us look at the Parker Family in Renew Your Vows Issues #17: 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now sure, in terms of how this situation is a good comparison and better than how it was handled in Boruto is pretty self explanatory.  Annie is more or less getting herself involved with a group of kids her age with powers, and the important thing is she's discovering new things about herself. How this moment is better is simple really we've seen the relationship Annie has with her father a very healthy one sure they have some moments of not agreeing with each other, but ultimately they do understand where the other one is coming from. Also, to anyones confusion Peter is a teaching at Annie's school, and of course she's feeling kinda embarrassed about it. Like I said the difference is that Boruto was hiding something for his own personal benefit mainly getting dad's attention, but with Annie she's doing it because to ultimately train them into heroes which is very understandable.   

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Last month there was an issue of Spider-Man: Renew Your Vows, but I couldn't really find much of a comparison to do with Boruto, but this issues #17  I was able to find something.

 

 

 

 

 

 

As you guys know The Boruto movie was essentially about Boruto and Naruto something I thought could've worked had the third act of the movie didn't brush it off for the action against Momoshiki. Anyway we have this moment after Boruto passes the  second part of the chunin exams, and prior we had Naruto send an email to Boruto, and now he shows up to congratulate him on his victory. The scene itself isn't bad necessarily, but prior this scene we've only had the scene wherre Naruto sends Boruto the email, I think had we have seen a scene or two of Boruto and Naruto being spending time face to face instead of Boruto being pissed about not getting attention  and of course hiding the fact that he's cheating in the chunin exams (in context of the movie since it came before the anime) it could've worked. 

 

 

 

 

 

Now let us look at the Parker Family in Renew Your Vows Issues #17: 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now sure, in terms of how this situation is a good comparison and better than how it was handled in Boruto is pretty self explanatory.  Annie is more or less getting herself involved with a group of kids her age with powers, and the important thing is she's discovering new things about herself. How this moment is better is simple really we've seen the relationship Annie has with her father a very healthy one sure they have some moments of not agreeing with each other, but ultimately they do understand where the other one is coming from. Also, to anyones confusion Peter is a teaching at Annie's school, and of course she's feeling kinda embarrassed about it. Like I said the difference is that Boruto was hiding something for his own personal benefit mainly getting dad's attention, but with Annie she's doing it because to ultimately train them into heroes which is very understandable.   

 

As usual, you really have done a great job comparing how much better things are in Amazing Spider-Man: Renew Your Vows with Peter and Annie to the mess things are with Naruto and Boruto as an excuse for "drama" in the supposed canon we got now, Chi. :) It really reminds me that if Kishi had guts and will, he could have done something like this, or even something like Goku with Gohan and Goten in Dragon Ball Z. Or a lot of other parent-child relationships in shonen or comics. Even Superman and his son got a better relationship together, since even if Clark can be tough with Jon, he loves him a lot, and also is willing to listen to him and help him find his place as a half-human, half-Kryptonian young superhero, like Peter with Annie in Renew Your Vows.

[winter-serenade]

All of this wouldn't even be so terrible if it was handled correctly, made sense, and didn't contradict itself and canon. It'd still be bad, but bad is better than worse.

[VanitasDS76491]

As usual, you really have done a great job comparing how much better things are in Amazing Spider-Man: Renew Your Vows with Peter and Annie to the mess things are with Naruto and Boruto as an excuse for "drama" in the supposed canon we got now, Chi. :) It really reminds me that if Kishi had guts and will, he could have done something like this, or even something like Goku with Gohan and Goten in Dragon Ball Z. Or a lot of other parent-child relationships in shonen or comics. Even Superman and his son got a better relationship together, since even if Clark can be tough with Jon, he loves him a lot, and also is willing to listen to him and help him find his place as a half-human, half-Kryptonian young superhero, like Peter with Annie in Renew Your Vows.

Superman is a natural born father given his the symbol of hope. Weird I though he can't have kids, but that might have been say before in different stories it's hard to keep track. I know he can in injustice given that's why superman goes evil. Cause in last son he said he can't have kids with lois.