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Ending with SS in a good way

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#1 DrK

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 10:23 AM

I wrote a joke post about this, but how could Kishi actually have made SS look good? I think you'd only need to change a couple things for the bare minimum.

 

The first thing that is necessary is that Sasuke shouldn't have tried to kill Sakura, inflict unnecessary pain on her, or treat her overly harshly. This would be better if the reason for it was because she was an important person to him, but it could be something as minor as him just acknowledging that she's significantly weaker than him, that she has a thing for him and really struggles to fight him for that reason, or that she's just not a real threat to him for whatever reason. He can be dismissive of her, but he shouldn't have been outright cruel to her. He certainly should not have acted like he didn't care whether or not she died. I talked about this in the other thread so I'll leave it there.

 

The second thing would be removing or toning down certain scenes that hint NS too heavily. Probably just the hug, Minato's interaction with her and the CPR scene should have been done differently, done with different characters or not done at all. I find these scenes especially objectionable with an SS ending for reasons that would take too long to elaborate on. Changing or removing them is necessary because it would help readers to accept the next thing I am going to mention.

 

Finally, NS needs an actual parting scene. Where Naruto accepts that Sakura still loves Sasuke and that she always will. But he's actually not hurt by it, because it means that Sakura is still the girl he fell in love with. He would get an actual resolution to his feelings for her that he could feel good about, because he loved the Sakura who loved Sasuke. Naruto wouldn't want her to change for him. He would actually be happy that she was still the same girl instead of turning into the desperate crazy person that we see in Gaiden. Hopefully, she wouldn't ever change into that. She could leave with Sasuke, who would truly accept her feelings instead of doing so super ambiguously, and Naruto could move on with a smile on his face. Attributing his feelings to rivalry murders everything about who Naruto is.

 

The fact that Sasuke would not let her go with him was not great because he's asking her to wait for him an indeterminate amount of time with no guarantees of anything. This reinforces the very natural assumption that Sasuke still doesn't care very much about Sakura. And he would need to for the collapse of NS to come off as something good. You would at least need to be presented with the idea that Sasuke could love Sakura, even if he doesn't say it, for this to work.

 

There's still the issue of the parallels, but Naruto would still be parallel with Jiraiya in this case, I suppose. The possibilities are infinite when Sasuke isn't a douchebag.

 

You can say that this would still be bad, because the main character's dreams are not being met. But in a way they still are. Naruto loved Sakura for who she was and wanted her to be happy. If you present it like this, there isn't this sense of something terribly wrong. It would seem like things are how they are supposed to be. As long as you depict Sakura as actually happy with Sasuke instead of whatever the hell Kishimoto did. I don't know how you work with him leaving the village. Maybe try to give the sense that he's around at least a significant amount of the time. The fact that he was gone for 12 straight years was basically game over.


Edited by DrK, 18 November 2017 - 02:11 PM.


#2 Phantom_999

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 02:22 PM

It would have been believable if Sasuke was an actual tsundere,but no. He was displaying blatant sociopathic behaviour at his worst.


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#3 NaruSaku fan in Kentucky

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 02:52 PM

He's makes Cartman look nice.

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#4 NarutoUzumaki01

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 03:01 PM

The only possible way of ending with SS in a good way is it never happening, period.  :hehehe:


Edited by NarutoUzumaki01, 18 November 2017 - 03:01 PM.


#5 DrK

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 04:00 PM

Yeah, I knew this one would be easier for you. It's much more subjective. If you want to believe that Naruto was always a crappy person, then you can. It's fine. Reading comprehension still needs work. I said that Naruto _would_ parallel Jiraiya with this hypothetical enduring love for Sakura, not that he does. Reference to a hypothetical parting scene that was discussed in only nebulous terms as ham-fisted was rather pretentious on your part. I wasn't specific enough that you could possibly make that determination. Hospital scene isn't a parting scene because he holds onto a wish to be with Sakura. The other scene was not very good either because his desire to be with Sakura was presumably already abandoned since he was more concerned about Hinata than the fact that Sakura was in a bad state. It was a means of ending NS for the viewers, not Naruto the character, so it doesn't do the same thing as what I suggested. There are other things you missed, but this is getting old.



#6 Kasimir38

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 06:00 PM

Sakura is very powerful. In a sense, she is a good match for Sasuke. They are the power - couple. Their love story was miserable. But I guess that's okay. You don't always need that Hollywood romance sequence where they both admit their feelings for each other. Sasuke is not that type of guy who would possibly talk about his feelings. I don't think he is a tsundere, I always thought he is asexual. (Or aromantic or however you call that)

 

Sakura is a strong woman so she can handle her life without a man. Of course, I don't like their relationship as much as NS, so what I would have changed would be all those NS - scenes! Sakura should never blush around Naruto, never show any sign of interest in him, never be jealous of Hinata and never pretend to care about him more than a friend. Then, SasuSaku would have made sense. He tried to kill her, but he tried to kill everyone, he had a rebellious, creepy, murderous phase. TBH, I never liked Sasuke as a character, but he is okay in Gaiden. Even likable.

 

That love - triangle didn't really work out. It felt like it was never resolved. Naruto somehow "unloved" Sakura and Sasuke kind of developed feelings for her which he always had? Yeah sure.  :ohmy:

I am not taking the Last in consideration, I don't think it counts. I needed a scene in Shippuuden, in which Sakura would tell Naruto why she loved Sasuke and with which he would approve. Like: thumbs up, Sakura-chan! I am always rooting for your happiness! But if he makes you unhappy, I will beat him up! (please correct me if there was a scene like that)

 

Ah, another point: ending SS in a good way would work out if Sakura would stop being such a fangirl. I think I would've enjoyed it if she would be very mean and cold to Sasuke at a certain point. That would show that she is actually realistic and not chasing after a dream. But because she forgave him that easily ... I had a strange feeling when they ended up together. It was too easy for him to win her over.


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#7 DrK

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 06:03 PM

Sakura is very powerful. In a sense, she is a good match for Sasuke. They are the power - couple. Their love story was miserable. But I guess that's okay. You don't always need that Hollywood romance sequence where they both admit their feelings for each other. Sasuke is not that type of guy who would possibly talk about his feelings. I don't think he is a tsundere, I always thought he is asexual. (Or aromantic or however you call that)

I thought the same. And yeah, the transformation of Sakura into a completely different person around Sasuke is also a problem. That would have been worth mentioning in the original post.


Edited by DrK, 18 November 2017 - 06:05 PM.


#8 Khaleesi

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 02:48 AM

When I first got into Naruto, I liked SS. But, tbh, to this ship to work, besides of what you said, I would need Sakura grew apart from the image she has on "cool guy" Sasuke. They spent time together but what is special about them? There was never a solid reason for Sakura to be fixated on Sasuke, the only things we read said/depicted by Kishimoto about it is that Sakura part 1 thought he was the cool talented guy and Sakura part 2 wants to save him. When you fall for someone there is always something more sustancial about it, unless is a mere superficial crush. I wouldnt change the agsnt nature of their relationship, but giving it substance and subtle reciprocation would make it less abusive.

 

Tho, reading part two probably would make me fall for NS again, most likely, who knows.


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#9 Khaleesi

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 02:50 AM

Oh, and yeah, the way Sasuke was constructed, I imaginated him as a asexual and aromantic, besides from being a sociopath.


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#10 Nate River

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 03:53 AM

A few issues in the OP's suggestions before I address the rather subjective subject, given I don't believe SS ended in a "bad way". 

 

NS getting a parting scene has nothing to do with SS happening, mind. NS also gets two scenes that function like this, the Hospital scene I would point out as one, and the scene in the Last as a second. The scene does not need to be blatant or ham-fisted as the OP suggests. In both Naruto realizes that, in the first, Sakura loves Sasuke, and in the second, understands that he and Sakura do not have romantic feelings for eachother, and what he feels now for another is love. It was always about rivalry though, the Last is merely confirming what the manga also always showed.

 

Naruto doesn't really parallel Jirayai in the way suggested either, given he moves on and finds love in someone who always believed in him, while Jirayai holds out a torch for the same person for the remainder of his life.

 

Getting Sakura was never a truly serious goal as we got into part two. It was not something to really reward them with. It could have been, the groundwork of the trope is there, but we got the subversion of it instead, and that's just as fine.

 

I don't think any "NS" scenes needs to be toned down. I don't count the hug as one, personally, or CPR (Because CPR is just CPR). If you don't like the Red Herring or the teasing of different pairings, then you would probably just be better off removing the crush to Sakura altogether or let it go away quickly, which is not a good move, as that supplies useful early tension and is a point of reader interest of the question Who will Naruto end up with, given it is a question that hangs until the end.

 

Lastly, I disagree that Sasuke shouldn't have tried to kill Sakura, given Sakura was going to kill him out of love, and we're showing how far he's fallen. It's a dramatic trope and if you remove all of the high drama you get less out of it.

 

Now, let me start my points of "Ending with SS in a good way", in that, SS did end in a good way. But if we want to make SS better in terms of development:

 

1: More time to develop Team 7 (And thus SS) by another arch or two before the Chuunin Exams.

 

Optional 2: Have Sakura actually go with Sasuke. Later part two could have had Sakura be the light of sorts that keeps Sasuke from falling too far. This also removes the need to introduce Taka, who, while great characters, have really minor roles. This gives SS more time to develop.

 

Optional 3: Or postpone it and have Sakura go with Sasuke during the Kage Summit Arc.

 

One would be the most effective and would have the advantage of developing Team 7 overall (including Naruto-Sasuke). You can infer why Naruto would hold tight no matter what Sasuke did the manga is (although that particular reason can come off kind of twisted)), but I also felt the manga just assumed the "rightness" of this without really explaining why he puts up with crap he does. I think Kishimoto recognized the gap later on and that is why we got some of the flashbacks we did. In Sakura's case there is nothing, but beyond her crush (which is superficial for much of the first half) it's not obvious why Sakura puts up with it and that why never gets defined. It's downside is it ends the "who does naruto end up with" much earlier.



#11 DrK

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 05:18 AM

When I first got into Naruto, I liked SS. But, tbh, to this ship to work, besides of what you said, I would need Sakura grew apart from the image she has on "cool guy" Sasuke. They spent time together but what is special about them? There was never a solid reason for Sakura to be fixated on Sasuke, the only things we read said/depicted by Kishimoto about it is that Sakura part 1 thought he was the cool talented guy and Sakura part 2 wants to save him. When you fall for someone there is always something more sustancial about it, unless is a mere superficial crush. I wouldnt change the agsnt nature of their relationship, but giving it substance and subtle reciprocation would make it less abusive.

 

Tho, reading part two probably would make me fall for NS again, most likely, who knows.

Well, Kishimoto said he was reluctant to say why she fell for him because he knew it would sound contrived. But a contrived reason would have been better than no reason. Like the flashback with Karin getting saved from the bear. That was nothing amazing or deep. But it worked well. It even told us more about Sasuke at the same time.

 

Sakura's flashbacks of these incredibly generic moments with him glancing at her with disinterest or her staring at him in a starry-eyed way didn't really have any impact. It doesn't work as a reason for not being able to stab him. They needed to have some kind of actual connection.


Edited by DrK, 19 November 2017 - 05:23 AM.


#12 James S Cassidy

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 05:53 AM

I don't like these posts, i'll be honest about that.

The reason is is because you're asking way too much of something to depend on for something that doesn't seem to work in the first place. I can't even see why Sasuke and Sakura work in the first place or how anyone can find appeal in it. Mostly because it is all so totally fake. Not in that they are fictonal characters, but the type of love people expect out of Sasuke and Sakura is a fake love in the first place. It is idealized imaginary love, not real love. If you see a similar relationship like this in real life it just doesn't work in the long run. Sasuke is too closeted and Sakura is too attention seeking. They don't see anything with each other other than their initial and top layer impressions. Sasuke is a self-serving man that sees love as more of a hinderance than an asset. He sees no joy, no reason, and no positive gains when being in a relationship. To him it is too much work. As for Sakura, well...girls like her just don't live too long in that lifestyle. I have seen girls like her exist in the beginning especially high school where they think "He is the popular guy, so I want to be with him to also be popular" which was Sakura's intention in the first place. This caused rivalry with Ino and so many of the other girls in their class. After High School, the girl kind of grows up. She learns that he isn't the guy she expects and moves on...usually finding someone who actually completes her.

Look at a anime called "Okami-san and her seven companions." She was a girl who fell in love with the popular guy only for the popular guy to betray her for his own games. Everyone picks on her and calls her names because he makes claims about her that were untrue, but noone would believe her. "He is too cool, why would he do that to you?" She ends up being an introvert and and being secluded, not trusting anyone ever again. Then you have the other guy...quiet, shy, fear of people looking at him, and he sees her and the strength she has and he says "I love her. I love her strength and I wish I could be strong too." This ends up with him being strong for her and he gains so much more. She begins to trust him and he gains the strength he has been looking for. When that old popular guy came back, she was afraid of him. So much so that she broke down until she conquered that fear of him. This usually how it plays out...maybe not as dramatic or overblown, but a very similar concept. She has a crush, the crush hurts her, she gets upset and moves on. She meets another guy that truly loves her, but she is untrusting until he shows her that trusting him would not be a bad thing. They overcome together. You see this in many romance stories especially comedies. People like Sasuke...they don't see people, they see possessions.

This is how Sakura should have turned out. Instead she still holds onto the popular guy until he gives in and just takes her.

In order for SS to even beging to work, you have to tear down both characters on a dynamic level since chapter 1. Sasuke would need a major overhaul to the point that he wouldn't be the Sasuke you know of in the story today. Would you even like that kind of Sasuke? The kind of Sasuke that is not a angry, revengefilled, dark character, but rather a character who is shy and introverted because he is hurting inside? He pushes people away not because he hates them, but because he just has problem with trust and people. He was betrayed one too many times by his own family and maybe even abused so he is scared all the time. He is not the confident looking man that strolls into the building acting cool. He is more jittery pushing people away and sleeking into the corner because he feels safer there. Is that the Sasuke you want? In fact, having Sasuke like this, he wouldn;t even beging the road of revenge in the first place. That part wouldn't even exist at all. He wouldn't even be confident...just reserved.

Naruto would have no need to start a rivalry with him because Sasuke wouldn;t want such a rivalry. He would avoid confrontations and challenges like that. Naruto would be seen as bully rather than the reject in that case. So now Naruto's dynamic would have to change just so Naruto isn't seen as the bad guy that picks on poor Sasuke. I can't even begin to list everything that would change. There would be no revenge plot, no Sasuke retreival arc, no Sasuke trying to take over the world, none of that. The story of Naruto would be VERY different.

You can't have Sasuke be both ways. This is the whole problem in the first place. You can't have him be so confident he believes he can kill anyone, but also is afraid to even come in contact with anyone and pushes himself away because he is afraid to be hurt again. This is exactly what the pro-enders want us to believe, but how much do you guys actually believe that? Do you see Sasuke as a scared little boy who the whole time that is afraid to love Sakura because "He doesn't want anyone close to him?" It doesn't sound right. As some of you said, he seems more like an apathetic asexual.

But, Kishimoto never made Sasuke this way. He didn't make any of the story this way and honestly, threads like this seem pointless even if you guys can have great ideas.
 

 

 

The scene in the Last was for the NS viewers. I think you're requesting it to be more ham-fisted?

Why not? Everything else was ham-fisted into us with the Naruto the Last scarf that represents the "red string of fate", genjutsu that just so happened to put Naruto in the memories of Hinata and not say anyone else's who was also in the pool too. Wouldn't Sakura get all of Naruto's memories of Naruto loving her and showing her stuff?

Heck, even the villain is an obvious ham-fisted with the fact that the first thing this guy does is proclaim his love for Hinata and how she needs to be his princess. That was his one and only purpose. He didn't want to take over the world, he didn't want to destroy it, he just wante HInata's hand in marriage because he said he loved her. No reason on why he loved her, no reason on how he knew of her, or any kind of character backstory that lead up to that point. Where was he when Kaguya came down? Where was he when he could have come down from the moon much sooner? Why did he wait two years after everything unfolded to come down and proclaim his love?

Nothing was explained about Toneri at all. We actually know more about Kaguya than we do about Toneri...and we didn't know anything about her. As well, what happens after Naruto the Last, where did he go? Why doesn't he make a return? Are they friends? Why doesn't Toneri come down and help Naruto fight some of the villains that pop up? Especially when the villains are of his own clan. Because his only purpose was to make Naruto jealous that he was taking Hinata way. His whole purpose was push NH to the limelight. That's it. After NH became canon, don't need him anymore. Wouldn't you like to see him come back and be something other than forced shipping matchmaker? You could make him more interesting.

Everything in Naruto the Last was one big ham-kittening for NH. Even the director of the film stated the whole film centered around them and this "NH bubble dream" as he described it and the "Scarf that tied them together."

I don't get why you don't accept this, Analyzer. Frankly, you just live in denial. Kishimoto says SS is miserable, you say they aren't, but then tell me I am not respecting Kishimoto inent. Well, his intent was they are miserable. Kishimoto says that Naruto the Last is one big NH ham-kittening, you say it isn't, and then again say we don't understand intent. I am not sure why you are so adamant to say we don't pay attention when you keep ignoring even the most obvious things.

You're like thesereading teachers than think they know more about the story than the author does at times.
Author: "The curtains are blue."
You: "Well obviously the curtains represent his inner child of sadness and regret"
Author: "No, I just made them blue because I like the color blue."
You to the author: "You don't know what you are talking about."
 

 

A few issues in the OP's suggestions before I address the rather subjective subject, given I don't believe SS ended in a "bad way".

 

You don't believe in anything that is Pro-NS in any way so it is not a surprise that you would find fault in this as well, but you keep forgetting one little detail that even most pro-enders say all the time...

If SS didn't end in a "bad way," then why does everyone hate Sakura because she is obsessed with Sasuke? They specifically say that this makes her useless because she is such a fangirl and childish for Sasuke. Also, if it is not bad, why does Kishimoto say it is bad? Why does he say he has no reason why Sasuke and Sakura should be together?

You keep ignoring all of this and tell us "You don't understand." You're right, I don't understand. I don't understand why you think the way you do and why you keep ignoring some of the biggest elephants in the room. I think one of the biggest elephants I have seen from you is how when you first came here you said that this story was poorly written and now you are saying that "It ended perfectly as it should have."

You say you are a NS fan and yet you have said nothing positive about NS since you got here.
You say you think the story could have been written better, but then say everything was written as it should have and was perfect and not written bad what so ever. That it is US who doesn't see it as perfect because we didn't get what we want. Yeah, we didn't get what we wanted. We wanted a coherient well meaningful story and all we got was shipping bait. Are you going to say that we don't know what we are talking about to ourselves?

You know what, I think you are just trying to cause trouble now. You take every argument and purposely go against everything in that argument just to go against it. You can't help yourself to play this opposite opinion especially when later down the line when you completely contradict yourself just because someone points out a fallacy in your argument.

Anything negative about NH and SS and you just want to go right against it even if your argument makes no sense.

There is no reason why SS is together in the first place. Kishimoto says this straightforward. You say there is a perfect reason why Sakura and Sasuke are together and just also say that Kishimoto is bad at romance so that is why there is not a good explanation. Well, which is it? You say that NS doesn;t need ham-fisted moments, but it is perfectly okay for NH to have a ham-fisted movie.

I want to ask everyone here...right now...How many of my fellow posters on here believe that Naruto the Last was a ham-fisted NH movie? How many of those same people think that such a concept was necessary or do you think it should have been resolved in the manga? How of my posters here believe Naruto the Last was shipping bait and should have been more about Naruto and Team 7?

 


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#13 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 05:54 AM

How to end SS in a good way: Sasuke, after fighting Naruto for the last time bleeds to death slowly and Sakura,without Chakra left  to save him weeps over not having been able to help him with anything ever since she's known him. To which Sasuke says "You always tried you're best, Thank You." Cue black panel, cut to no sequels. 

The end. 

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Edited by Tsuki Hoshino, 19 November 2017 - 05:57 AM.

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#14 DrK

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 05:57 AM

I don't like these posts, i'll be honest about that.

The reason is is because you're asking way too much of something to depend on for something that doesn't seem to work in the first place. I can't even see why Sasuke and Sakura work in the first place or how anyone can find appeal in it. Mostly because it is all so totally fake. Not in that they are fictonal characters, but the type of love people expect out of Sasuke and Sakura is a fake love in the first place. It is idealized imaginary love, not real love. If you see a similar relationship like this in real life it just doesn't work in the long run. Sasuke is too closeted and Sakura is too attention seeking. They don't see anything with each other other than their initial and top layer impressions. Sasuke is a self-serving man that sees love as more of a hinderance than an asset. He sees no joy, no reason, and no positive gains when being in a relationship. To him it is too much work. As for Sakura, well...girls like her just don't live too long in that lifestyle. I have seen girls like her exist in the beginning especially high school where they think "He is the popular guy, so I want to be with him to also be popular" which was Sakura's intention in the first place. This caused rivalry with Ino and so many of the other girls in their class. After High School, the girl kind of grows up. She learns that he isn't the guy she expects and moves on...usually finding someone who actually completes her.

Look at a anime called "Okami-san and her seven companions." She was a girl who fell in love with the popular guy only for the popular guy to betray her for his own games. Everyone picks on her and calls her names because he makes claims about her that were untrue, but noone would believe her. "He is too cool, why would he do that to you?" She ends up being an introvert and and being secluded, not trusting anyone ever again. Then you have the other guy...quiet, shy, fear of people looking at him, and he sees her and the strength she has and he says "I love her. I love her strength and I wish I could be strong too." This ends up with him being strong for her and he gains so much more. She begins to trust him and he gains the strength he has been looking for. When that old popular guy came back, she was afraid of him. So much so that she broke down until she conquered that fear of him. This usually how it plays out...maybe not as dramatic or overblown, but a very similar concept. She has a crush, the crush hurts her, she gets upset and moves on. She meets another guy that truly loves her, but she is untrusting until he shows her that trusting him would not be a bad thing. They overcome together. You see this in many romance stories especially comedies. People like Sasuke...they don't see people, they see possessions.

This is how Sakura should have turned out. Instead she still holds onto the popular guy until he gives in and just takes her.

In order for SS to even beging to work, you have to tear down both characters on a dynamic level since chapter 1. 

Honestly, this is all valid and I agree with it. All I was thinking was "How could he have ended with SS without it being disgusting?" basically.



#15 James S Cassidy

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 06:10 AM

Honestly, this is all valid and I agree with it. All I was thinking was "How could he have ended with SS without it being disgusting?" basically.

Well...you can't...plain and simple. There is no way without altering the entire story since page 1. I mean, the only reason why SS is seen as disgusting is because of how it is now. We see Sasuke's character, we see Sakura's character, and we see how incompatible they are. It's not just what happened in the last few pages, but rather what has been going on in the entire manga.

You can change the last ten pages and it would still seem disgusting and forced retconning which is why I said you would have to go all the way back to square one. In order to really make SS truly believable and really liked as a pairing I'd say you would have to make Sasuke and Sakura have a similar dynamic like Squall and Rinoa in Final Fantasy 8.

The SS we know of as now would be like....well, imagine Final Fantasy 8 with Squall and Rinoa, but right in the end, even after all those wonderful good scenes,  Rinoa decides that she still loves and wants to be with Seifer and Squall is forced to go with Quistis.
That's all I am saying.


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#16 Tiller

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 06:48 AM

Redo the entire story. Give Sasuke a different personality, not make excuses for his actions. Set up the dynamic differently. Basically write a completely different story.



 


#17 Phantom_999

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 02:18 PM

I don't like these posts, i'll be honest about that.

The reason is is because you're asking way too much of something to depend on for something that doesn't seem to work in the first place. I can't even see why Sasuke and Sakura work in the first place or how anyone can find appeal in it. Mostly because it is all so totally fake. Not in that they are fictonal characters, but the type of love people expect out of Sasuke and Sakura is a fake love in the first place. It is idealized imaginary love, not real love. If you see a similar relationship like this in real life it just doesn't work in the long run. Sasuke is too closeted and Sakura is too attention seeking. They don't see anything with each other other than their initial and top layer impressions. Sasuke is a self-serving man that sees love as more of a hinderance than an asset. He sees no joy, no reason, and no positive gains when being in a relationship. To him it is too much work. As for Sakura, well...girls like her just don't live too long in that lifestyle. I have seen girls like her exist in the beginning especially high school where they think "He is the popular guy, so I want to be with him to also be popular" which was Sakura's intention in the first place. This caused rivalry with Ino and so many of the other girls in their class. After High School, the girl kind of grows up. She learns that he isn't the guy she expects and moves on...usually finding someone who actually completes her.

Look at a anime called "Okami-san and her seven companions." She was a girl who fell in love with the popular guy only for the popular guy to betray her for his own games. Everyone picks on her and calls her names because he makes claims about her that were untrue, but noone would believe her. "He is too cool, why would he do that to you?" She ends up being an introvert and and being secluded, not trusting anyone ever again. Then you have the other guy...quiet, shy, fear of people looking at him, and he sees her and the strength she has and he says "I love her. I love her strength and I wish I could be strong too." This ends up with him being strong for her and he gains so much more. She begins to trust him and he gains the strength he has been looking for. When that old popular guy came back, she was afraid of him. So much so that she broke down until she conquered that fear of him. This usually how it plays out...maybe not as dramatic or overblown, but a very similar concept. She has a crush, the crush hurts her, she gets upset and moves on. She meets another guy that truly loves her, but she is untrusting until he shows her that trusting him would not be a bad thing. They overcome together. You see this in many romance stories especially comedies. People like Sasuke...they don't see people, they see possessions.

This is how Sakura should have turned out. Instead she still holds onto the popular guy until he gives in and just takes her.

In order for SS to even beging to work, you have to tear down both characters on a dynamic level since chapter 1. Sasuke would need a major overhaul to the point that he wouldn't be the Sasuke you know of in the story today. Would you even like that kind of Sasuke? The kind of Sasuke that is not a angry, revengefilled, dark character, but rather a character who is shy and introverted because he is hurting inside? He pushes people away not because he hates them, but because he just has problem with trust and people. He was betrayed one too many times by his own family and maybe even abused so he is scared all the time. He is not the confident looking man that strolls into the building acting cool. He is more jittery pushing people away and sleeking into the corner because he feels safer there. Is that the Sasuke you want? In fact, having Sasuke like this, he wouldn;t even beging the road of revenge in the first place. That part wouldn't even exist at all. He wouldn't even be confident...just reserved.

Naruto would have no need to start a rivalry with him because Sasuke wouldn;t want such a rivalry. He would avoid confrontations and challenges like that. Naruto would be seen as bully rather than the reject in that case. So now Naruto's dynamic would have to change just so Naruto isn't seen as the bad guy that picks on poor Sasuke. I can't even begin to list everything that would change. There would be no revenge plot, no Sasuke retreival arc, no Sasuke trying to take over the world, none of that. The story of Naruto would be VERY different.

You can't have Sasuke be both ways. This is the whole problem in the first place. You can't have him be so confident he believes he can kill anyone, but also is afraid to even come in contact with anyone and pushes himself away because he is afraid to be hurt again. This is exactly what the pro-enders want us to believe, but how much do you guys actually believe that? Do you see Sasuke as a scared little boy who the whole time that is afraid to love Sakura because "He doesn't want anyone close to him?" It doesn't sound right. As some of you said, he seems more like an apathetic asexual.

But, Kishimoto never made Sasuke this way. He didn't make any of the story this way and honestly, threads like this seem pointless even if you guys can have great ideas.
 

 

Why not? Everything else was ham-fisted into us with the Naruto the Last scarf that represents the "red string of fate", genjutsu that just so happened to put Naruto in the memories of Hinata and not say anyone else's who was also in the pool too. Wouldn't Sakura get all of Naruto's memories of Naruto loving her and showing her stuff?

Heck, even the villain is an obvious ham-fisted with the fact that the first thing this guy does is proclaim his love for Hinata and how she needs to be his princess. That was his one and only purpose. He didn't want to take over the world, he didn't want to destroy it, he just wante HInata's hand in marriage because he said he loved her. No reason on why he loved her, no reason on how he knew of her, or any kind of character backstory that lead up to that point. Where was he when Kaguya came down? Where was he when he could have come down from the moon much sooner? Why did he wait two years after everything unfolded to come down and proclaim his love?

Nothing was explained about Toneri at all. We actually know more about Kaguya than we do about Toneri...and we didn't know anything about her. As well, what happens after Naruto the Last, where did he go? Why doesn't he make a return? Are they friends? Why doesn't Toneri come down and help Naruto fight some of the villains that pop up? Especially when the villains are of his own clan. Because his only purpose was to make Naruto jealous that he was taking Hinata way. His whole purpose was push NH to the limelight. That's it. After NH became canon, don't need him anymore. Wouldn't you like to see him come back and be something other than forced shipping matchmaker? You could make him more interesting.

Everything in Naruto the Last was one big ham-kittening for NH. Even the director of the film stated the whole film centered around them and this "NH bubble dream" as he described it and the "Scarf that tied them together."

I don't get why you don't accept this, Analyzer. Frankly, you just live in denial. Kishimoto says SS is miserable, you say they aren't, but then tell me I am not respecting Kishimoto inent. Well, his intent was they are miserable. Kishimoto says that Naruto the Last is one big NH ham-kittening, you say it isn't, and then again say we don't understand intent. I am not sure why you are so adamant to say we don't pay attention when you keep ignoring even the most obvious things.

You're like thesereading teachers than think they know more about the story than the author does at times.
Author: "The curtains are blue."
You: "Well obviously the curtains represent his inner child of sadness and regret"
Author: "No, I just made them blue because I like the color blue."
You to the author: "You don't know what you are talking about."
 

 

 

You don't believe in anything that is Pro-NS in any way so it is not a surprise that you would find fault in this as well, but you keep forgetting one little detail that even most pro-enders say all the time...

If SS didn't end in a "bad way," then why does everyone hate Sakura because she is obsessed with Sasuke? They specifically say that this makes her useless because she is such a fangirl and childish for Sasuke. Also, if it is not bad, why does Kishimoto say it is bad? Why does he say he has no reason why Sasuke and Sakura should be together?

You keep ignoring all of this and tell us "You don't understand." You're right, I don't understand. I don't understand why you think the way you do and why you keep ignoring some of the biggest elephants in the room. I think one of the biggest elephants I have seen from you is how when you first came here you said that this story was poorly written and now you are saying that "It ended perfectly as it should have."

You say you are a NS fan and yet you have said nothing positive about NS since you got here.
You say you think the story could have been written better, but then say everything was written as it should have and was perfect and not written bad what so ever. That it is US who doesn't see it as perfect because we didn't get what we want. Yeah, we didn't get what we wanted. We wanted a coherient well meaningful story and all we got was shipping bait. Are you going to say that we don't know what we are talking about to ourselves?

You know what, I think you are just trying to cause trouble now. You take every argument and purposely go against everything in that argument just to go against it. You can't help yourself to play this opposite opinion especially when later down the line when you completely contradict yourself just because someone points out a fallacy in your argument.

Anything negative about NH and SS and you just want to go right against it even if your argument makes no sense.

There is no reason why SS is together in the first place. Kishimoto says this straightforward. You say there is a perfect reason why Sakura and Sasuke are together and just also say that Kishimoto is bad at romance so that is why there is not a good explanation. Well, which is it? You say that NS doesn;t need ham-fisted moments, but it is perfectly okay for NH to have a ham-fisted movie.

I want to ask everyone here...right now...How many of my fellow posters on here believe that Naruto the Last was a ham-fisted NH movie? How many of those same people think that such a concept was necessary or do you think it should have been resolved in the manga? How of my posters here believe Naruto the Last was shipping bait and should have been more about Naruto and Team 7?

 

 

Well I repeat. the couple WOULD have worked if Sasuke was a tsundere, which he isn't. I honestly don't have anything positive to say about SS and not because of shipping preference but because such relationships don't work out in my mind. SS was NEVER about emotional bonding, support or equality it is a wish fulfillment fantasy of girls to  change and melt the heart of the cool, stoic bad boy. but guess what Sasuke ends up moving WAY PAST the bad boy phase and straight up goes to  authority defiant, sociopathy. He more or less has little regard for others if at all, wants to murder all Kages which is downright political assassination, and wants to shape the world as HE SEES FIT, so I can add megalomania to that list. Honestly any self respecting and independent woman can see this behaviour as not beneficial to herself and move on. BUT NO, Kishimoto has to have Sakura pine after Sasuke since She must be the parody of the "girls want bad boys trope" and then HE (Kishimoto) wonders why no one looks up to Sakura. so in conclusion, NO. SS can NEVER BE CANON in a positive note, because Sasuke is self-centred and Sakura's so-called "love for him" (I can't even call that love by the way) is self destructive.

 

Also, that whole moving on from Sasuke would make her a "terrible woman" bit. That really takes the cake. Moving on from a violent, emotionally unstable sociopath makes you a "terrible woman"? Finding happiness with someone who appreciates you, is patient with you, understands you, encourages you, and generally makes you fell comforted and happy makes you a TERRIBLE WOMAN? HONESTLY? Naruto is not some sort of conciliation prize he proved TIME AND TIME AGAIN that he cares for Sakura, not as a trophy to be won, but as a person and is quite selfless to the point it boggles my mind how anyone with any basic understanding of Human interaction would even swallow that kitten that Naruto saw Sakura as a medal to be from Sasuke. FIRST OF ALL did Sasuke show ANY attraction to Sakura in the first place? No? Well there you go. Sakura was never a trophy to begin with because Sasuke never wanted her. In fact if a girl "pining for Sasuke" is all it takes for Naruto to see winning that girl's affections from Sasuke as "he beat him in something", why couldn't he have picked another random fan girl like Ino, or any of the other hundreds of girls with crushes on Sasuke? Why would he single out Sakura out of all Sasuke's fan girls if he was not in fact attracted to her for her on some level? Is that not how attraction works?

 

Actually on that note, I have a "opinion" on the NH couple that I will post on the debate thread at a later date


Edited by Phantom_999, 22 November 2020 - 12:03 PM.

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#18 DrK

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Posted 19 November 2017 - 03:08 PM

 

Well I repeat. the couple WOULD have worked if Sasuke was a tsundere, which he isn't. I honestly don't have anything positive to say about SS and not because of shipping preference but because such relationships don't work out in my mind. SS was NEVER about emotional bonding, support or equality it is a wish fulfillment fantasy of girls to  change and melt the heart of the cool, stoic bad boy. but guess what Sasuke ends up moving WAY PAST the bad boy phase and straight up goes to  authority defiant, sociopathy. He more or less has little regard for others if at all, wants to murder all Kages which is downright political assassination, and wants to shape the world as HE SEES FIT, so I can add megalomania to that list. Honestly any self respecting and independent woman can see this behaviour as not beneficial to herself and move on.

Yeah. The way Kishi treated Sakura was absolutely ridiculous and pathetic. She decides to devote her life to the man who hurt her more than anyone else. And she decides to do this for no reason other than a love that has no basis, and that she had two perfectly good alternatives to, Naruto and being alone.


Edited by DrK, 19 November 2017 - 03:17 PM.


#19 T XD

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Posted 20 November 2017 - 03:00 PM

Redo the entire story on their relationship. At first, Sakura's affection for Sasuke is shallow then it got to being clingy and now she's desperate as a single parent.


Edited by T XD, 20 November 2017 - 03:00 PM.


#20 rocci

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Posted 21 November 2017 - 08:45 AM

Ss can be good if sasuke is like/love sakura or if ss already a pairing in the beginning of manga. Or make him a tsundere.

It will make ss argument legitimate.


Too bad it doesn't happen in the manga to the point the author himself can't figure it out.





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