397 replies to this topic

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

I strongly disagree there as well... From the very beginning, Sakura was investigating him, if you look at it. Sasuke even says "What are you trying to pull" and she says "I have no ulterior motive".
This is the part where Sasuke discovers her "secret" as well as, he knew the Sakura who begged him in Part 1 not to leave, and the Sakura from part 2, way different.
As they continue to speak, she's just like i'll do this and this and this, I'll be your puppy. Something like that. Bad acting. And Sasuke knew it. He had just seen the difference with her and Karin. Karin was there for him, but if there would've been something she wouldn't like about him, she would've smacked him. Well, not literally, but you get the idea.
That's why he said to her he wanted to crush Konoha, to see her reaction, and Sakura got shocked at this news and kept insisting "if that's what you want me to do..." Sasuke knew this was all a bluff.
That's why, in order to prove him, he asked to kill Karin. Sakura's reaction... she starts all sweating, etc. She tries to pull the time by asking who she is, so on and so forth, while inside her she keeps analyzing him.
By her body language Sasuke knew that she will not going to do it, betray Konoha and go with him. Sasuke is not stupid.
He knew she was trying to pull something. Meaning, getting him killed with that Poisoned Kunai.
So no, there wasn't any reason to think she would leave Konoha and Sasuke knows this.
"She doesn't matter... If I... If I... If I stab Sasuke-kun right now, all this will end"
That was the full extent of her thoughts.
She was always thinkig to turn and stab Sasuke, not Karin. So once again, I strongly disagree.
Sorry.

As for the rest, Gaara thing, she didn't knew it was him that saved her because she was uncounscious.
And making mistakes from which she has to learn was part of Sakura's character in part 1.

You cant tell someome to change his mind, she was all about Sasuke on part 1 and there's lot of proof if Naruto was important to her she would not try to leave him behind to go with Sasuke.

Sasuke didnt knew it was a bluff he just wanted to kill her after he saw her reluctant, he even say "what's wrong you cant do this?"

Her fate was death there if wasnt Naruto.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 10 January 2013 - 12:44 AM.

[Chatte]

You cant tell someome to change his mind, she was all about Sasuke on part 1 and there's lot of proof if Naruto was important to her she would not try to leave him behind to go with Sasuke.

Sasuke didnt knew it was a bluff he just wanted to kill her after he saw her reluctant, he even say "what's wrong you cant do this?"

Her fate was death there if wasnt Naruto.

Well, then, agree to disagree, then.

LE: About the Hinata vs. Sakura thing... I found the original Japanese words and I asked a friend of mine. So her eit is, in case for further reference:

周りからヒロインらしくないとかヒナタのほうがヒロインだとか言われているがやはりサクラは自分の中でヒロインなんで、これからヒロインっぽい所見せる」

I have been told by other people that Sakura isn't acting like a heroine, or that Hinata is more of a heroine than her, but if I think of it Sakura really has the strength of a heroine inside her, and from here on out she's ready to show it, too.

Edited by Chatte, 10 January 2013 - 02:21 AM.

[Phantom_999]

Forget combat focus, Sakura's not getting focus period. If Kishimoto at least gave her positive emotional development that would be an improvement as well.

NOT ENOUGH positive emotional development? Wanting to help others, fighting bravely;evenly in the face of death against Sasori, and losing her single dimensional character of Sasuke fan-girling is not enough positive emotional development? Learning to have faith in Naruto and truly understanding him to the brink of almost crying to ACTUALLY crying over his hardships and heartbreaking childhood is not enough positive emotional development? becoming a mature and calm young woman even under the most stressful situations is not enough positive emotional development? I don't see how you are saying that truthfully.

That is what I want, not just mere combat focus. Sakura's entire character arc basically halted after her attempt to kill Sasuke.

NO. Any involvement with SASUKE was halted. She has stopped viewing him n a shallow and single minded matter and has learned since that dealing with him is out of her hands, so she should stop obsessing over him whether in terms of love or dealing with his darkness . Doesn't mean she has stopped developing, we just are not seeing much focus on her at the moment. I don't mention character development because she doesn't need much more, because she is a strong and determined enough person. I emphasize combat focus because I'm against the portrayal that is shown thus far; she mainly provides emotional support and doesn't actively participate in fights. She's not Hinata that needs rescuing every time and has no problem cracking heads so I want to see that more.

Edited by Phantom_999, 10 January 2013 - 04:13 AM.

[kirabook]

I got that impression that he planned to kill her anyway as soon as she turned her back. He already nearly killed Karin, he killed Danzo, and he nearly killed Sakura before Naruto jumped in. Sasuke obviously did not care to have a team at that point, just look at what he did to Karin already.

Sasuke's insane expression not too soon after is further proof of this, he wasn't sane at all at that time. He was going to kill everyone who showed up until he went fist to fist with Naruto and seemingly called down at least a wee bit.

Sasuke was planning to kill Sakura then. I don't know if he knew it was a bluff or not, but he was going to kill her anyway.

[Chatte]

I got that impression that he planned to kill her anyway as soon as she turned her back. He already nearly killed Karin, he killed Danzo, and he nearly killed Sakura before Naruto jumped in. Sasuke obviously did not care to have a team at that point, just look at what he did to Karin already.

Sasuke's insane expression not too soon after is further proof of this, he wasn't sane at all at that time. He was going to kill everyone who showed up until he went fist to fist with Naruto and seemingly called down at least a wee bit.

Sasuke was planning to kill Sakura then. I don't know if he knew it was a bluff or not, but he was going to kill her anyway.

Well, we know about Sasuke.
The discussion there was Sakura's actions.

[T XD]

Sakura clearly wasn't in thought to go with Sasuke in the reuniting arc. She was trying to bluff him to have a way to kill him without him noticing, but it didn't work out well. Sasuke wasn't even considering her help or her joining with him, he was going to kill her anyway.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Sakura clearly wasn't in thought to go with Sasuke in the reuniting arc. She was trying to bluff him to have a way to kill him without him noticing, but it didn't work out well. Sasuke wasn't even considering her help or her joining with him, he was going to kill her anyway.

I doubt it, i doubt that she really wanted to kill him, the "if if i kill him it all ends" she was deciding to kill him, my bet is she didnt knew that Sasuke was evil, she went there alone to convince him, and if it fail she would try to kill him, the fact is she had the thought but she wanted to end her suffering, her feelings for Sasuke had a limit she would not go too far for Sasuke, like she tried on part 1, Sasuke tried to kill her because she could not kill Karin and moreover nad he didnt care about her.

She didnt had a plan, and it was obvious when she said " i know i could not do it" her mission was "convince Sasuke and if it fails she die" for me it was a suicidal mission, she knew she could not harm Sasuke, she did the poison(even with it she could not even make a scratch) but it was useless.
It was a mission with 100% certain death, her luck is because Naruto saved her.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 10 January 2013 - 02:16 PM.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

One thing with Sakura I respect a lot with her wanting to plan to kill Sasuke is she at least had resolve to do something about him, unlike Naruto who had no way to be able to figure out what to do with him until seeing how far he'd gone since what he learned about the Uchiha and all. Sakura also just wanted to ease the burden she put on Naruto, yes, but she did it also because she cares a lot for Naruto, and knew if he kept pursuing Sasuke that he'd end up dead, something she didn't want to happen.

In my honest opinion, even if Naruto said he was going after Sasuke for himself and not just Sakura's promise, I like to think he still was doing it for her, thinking of others before himself like he usually does and not thinking about the consequences to his actions at times. It's one thing I hope Naruto will come to grips to at some point so that he can realize he's hurting Sakura worse than he realizes by not noticing how his actions are affecting her, and not realizing she does love him, and his whole thinking her confession was just a lie thing to get him to stop going after Sasuke.

[shadow_Uzumaki]

In my honest opinion, even if Naruto said he was going after Sasuke for himself and not just Sakura's promise, I like to think he still was doing it for her, thinking of others before himself like he usually does and not thinking about the consequences to his actions at times. It's one thing I hope Naruto will come to grips to at some point so that he can realize he's hurting Sakura worse than he realizes by not noticing how his actions are affecting her, and not realizing she does love him, and his whole thinking her confession was just a lie thing to get him to stop going after Sasuke.

Yeah, it mostly feels like a combination of doing it for Sakura, some weird need to validate himself and his nindo, and just his general determination. It didn't help that Jiraiya and Minato were all, "Break the cycle of Hatred/Revenge!" at him.

Sometimes, fictional people just need to die, especially with the power that Sasuke yields. Filial piety, be damned.

[tricksie]

One thing with Sakura I respect a lot with her wanting to plan to kill Sasuke is she at least had resolve to do something about him, unlike Naruto who had no way to be able to figure out what to do with him until seeing how far he'd gone since what he learned about the Uchiha and all. Sakura also just wanted to ease the burden she put on Naruto, yes, but she did it also because she cares a lot for Naruto, and knew if he kept pursuing Sasuke that he'd end up dead, something she didn't want to happen.

In my honest opinion, even if Naruto said he was going after Sasuke for himself and not just Sakura's promise, I like to think he still was doing it for her, thinking of others before himself like he usually does and not thinking about the consequences to his actions at times. It's one thing I hope Naruto will come to grips to at some point so that he can realize he's hurting Sakura worse than he realizes by not noticing how his actions are affecting her, and not realizing she does love him, and his whole thinking her confession was just a lie thing to get him to stop going after Sasuke.

Yeah, I have to say, Naruto was pretty crappy to Sakura in that confession. She says she loves him and what does he come back with? The only time in the manga he says he hates something. I don't care what he thought, he could have said "thanks," "oh how nice for you," "lolwut" anything but an "I hate..." statement.

I wonder if Sakura's character development won't take a turn in the end and the audience is shown things from her pov where she's always acted for Naruto's sake. Something that builds up sympathy from the general audience, not just for NS supporters.

Because to have NS be an acceptable part of the storyline, Naruto can't just flip a coin and go "heads it's Hinata, tails it's Sakura." Since there is a tension in the two pairings, with an equal amount of rabid fan support, Kishimoto is going to have to do something to make the Naruto's end relationship seem like the logical choice.

Developing Hinata's storyline to a point where she is happy and has achieved what she set out to achieve. And then focus on Sakura and building up support for her character's development.

Anyway, I do wonder how Kishimoto's going to do that. Is he going to make Sakura look like a supreme bada$$ so that Naruto would be crazy to want anyone else. Or will he show some scenes of Sakura accepting that it's not going to work out for her and Naruto, and her wanting him to be happy, just like he wanted her to be happy (so Sakura reverses roles with Naruto)...only to have him come tearing back to her and straightening out all the misunderstandings in the end.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Yeah, I have to say, Naruto was pretty crappy to Sakura in that confession. She says she loves him and what does he come back with? The only time in the manga he says he hates something. I don't care what he thought, he could have said "thanks," "oh how nice for you," "lolwut" anything but an "I hate..." statement.

I wonder if Sakura's character development won't take a turn in the end and the audience is shown things from her pov where she's always acted for Naruto's sake. Something that builds up sympathy from the general audience, not just for NS supporters.

Because to have NS be an acceptable part of the storyline, Naruto can't just flip a coin and go "heads it's Hinata, tails it's Sakura." Since there is a tension in the two pairings, with an equal amount of rabid fan support, Kishimoto is going to have to do something to make the Naruto's end relationship seem like the logical choice.

Developing Hinata's storyline to a point where she is happy and has achieved what she set out to achieve. And then focus on Sakura and building up support for her character's development.

Anyway, I do wonder how Kishimoto's going to do that. Is he going to make Sakura look like a supreme bada$$ so that Naruto would be crazy to want anyone else. Or will he show some scenes of Sakura accepting that it's not going to work out for her and Naruto, and her wanting him to be happy, just like he wanted her to be happy (so Sakura reverses roles with Naruto)...only to have him come tearing back to her and straightening out all the misunderstandings in the end.

You know Naruto is a typical shounen hero actually it was pretty predictable that he could not handle this, i mean Naruto is still a kid, and it was obvious that he would not handle as a man something like i love you.

[Chatte]

You know Naruto is a typical shounen hero actually it was pretty predictable that he could not handle this, i mean Naruto is still a kid, and it was obvious that he would not handle as a man something like i love you.

It is, but he was never like this... I hate people, bla bla. Not to mention we're talking Sakura here.

[PhenixElite]

Because to have NS be an acceptable part of the storyline, Naruto can't just flip a coin and go "heads it's Hinata, tails it's Sakura." Since there is a tension in the two pairings, with an equal amount of rabid fan support, Kishimoto is going to have to do something to make the Naruto's end relationship seem like the logical choice.

Dont you think its already the logical choice if we compare it to SS and NH? I thinks it already the most logical choice and the most acceptable part of the storyline.

[tricksie]

Dont you think its already the logical choice if we compare it to SS and NH? I thinks it already the most logical choice and the most acceptable part of the storyline.

Ah. Sorry, let me rephrase that. I mean an accepted part of the story line by all audiences, not just the ones who ship NS.

Kishimoto has an obligation to all his fans, not just NS ones. So if he goes NS, he will ultimately have to appease the other ships who lost out. by writing believable (in the Narutoverse) storylines for the characters he has built up so much.

So if NS is the end pairing, Kishimoto will have to write something that moves the entire audience to see that this was the most reasonable choice. Hinata will be achieve her goal, and the audience will be (mostly) satisfied with the outcome. And more of Sakura's pov will have to be shown to bring the audience into support of her, after she has been on one side of the shipping equation for so long.

Same goes if NH is the end pairing. Kishimoto would then have to write something that sways the whole audience (including NS supporters) into believing and accepting that NH is the most reasonable choice. Not because someone wants it, but because it would make the most sense within the story. (I really don't believe this can happen. I'm saying this for argument's sake.) And then Sakura would have to be given some storyline that was fulfilling to her goals. Whether it was SS or head of the hospital or something like that.

Anyway, Kishimoto has an obligation to all of his audience, not just the ones who support a particular pairing over another. I'm interested to see how he will resolve the tension of shipping and get audience behind him in the decision.

He has painted Sakura to be rough, dismissive and possibly false to Naruto (the contested confession). Hinata has never been shown to have any flaws (excluding her own self-doubt, which only harms herself). So even though there is a lot of foreshadowing of NS as the final pairing, Kishimoto will have to restore support in Sakura before the general audience accepts it...and is happy about it.

So I guess it's not so much what's acceptable within the storyline, but what will be accepted by the fans and how Kishimoto will get to that point. Will he make people sympathize with Sakura? Or will he give Hinata another love interest? Or both?

Anyway, the more junk Kishimoto puts on Sakura (like the Naruto implying she's a liar) to keep the possibility of NH afloat, the more he will have to undo to make NS the final accepted pairing.

[Chatte]

Ah. Sorry, let me rephrase that. I mean an accepted part of the story line by all audiences, not just the ones who ship NS.

Kishimoto has an obligation to all his fans, not just NS ones. So if he goes NS, he will ultimately have to appease the other ships who lost out. by writing believable (in the Narutoverse) storylines for the characters he has built up so much.

So if NS is the end pairing, Kishimoto will have to write something that moves the entire audience to see that this was the most reasonable choice. Hinata will be achieve her goal, and the audience will be (mostly) satisfied with the outcome. And more of Sakura's pov will have to be shown to bring the audience into support of her, after she has been on one side of the shipping equation for so long.

Same goes if NH is the end pairing. Kishimoto would then have to write something that sways the whole audience (including NS supporters) into believing and accepting that NH is the most reasonable choice. Not because someone wants it, but because it would make the most sense within the story. (I really don't believe this can happen. I'm saying this for argument's sake.) And then Sakura would have to be given some storyline that was fulfilling to her goals. Whether it was SS or head of the hospital or something like that.

Anyway, Kishimoto has an obligation to all of his audience, not just the ones who support a particular pairing over another. I'm interested to see how he will resolve the tension of shipping and get audience behind him in the decision.

He has painted Sakura to be rough, dismissive and possibly false to Naruto (the contested confession). Hinata has never been shown to have any flaws (excluding her own self-doubt, which only harms herself). So even though there is a lot of foreshadowing of NS as the final pairing, Kishimoto will have to restore support in Sakura before the general audience accepts it...and is happy about it.

So I guess it's not so much what's acceptable within the storyline, but what will be accepted by the fans and how Kishimoto will get to that point. Will he make people sympathize with Sakura? Or will he give Hinata another love interest? Or both?

Anyway, the more junk Kishimoto puts on Sakura (like the Naruto implying she's a liar) to keep the possibility of NH afloat, the more he will have to undo to make NS the final accepted pairing.

You're so right about this tricksie.
Kishi has been going so complicated with Sakura's character that I, sometimes, don't know how he'll make people sympathize with her considering almost every people in the fandom hates her.
From what I've seen, in order to get her back on the good track, he'll have to pull a Sakura a la Kazekage Arc.
That was the Sakura everyone liked. Including the people who disliked her. I've been told this many times in my debates about her.
Only a Sakura like that, in my beliefs, will make the fans accept the outcome of NS.
Because let's be honest, for the other two, people don't care too much. For NH having such a big fanbase, no one will say nothing.
And for SS they'll be like. She's a b*tch, they deserve each other. And Sakura will always remain with this stigma on her. Sadly.

[PhenixElite]

Ah. Sorry, let me rephrase that. I mean an accepted part of the story line by all audiences, not just the ones who ship NS.

Kishimoto has an obligation to all his fans, not just NS ones. So if he goes NS, he will ultimately have to appease the other ships who lost out. by writing believable (in the Narutoverse) storylines for the characters he has built up so much.

So if NS is the end pairing, Kishimoto will have to write something that moves the entire audience to see that this was the most reasonable choice. Hinata will be achieve her goal, and the audience will be (mostly) satisfied with the outcome. And more of Sakura's pov will have to be shown to bring the audience into support of her, after she has been on one side of the shipping equation for so long.

Same goes if NH is the end pairing. Kishimoto would then have to write something that sways the whole audience (including NS supporters) into believing and accepting that NH is the most reasonable choice. Not because someone wants it, but because it would make the most sense within the story. (I really don't believe this can happen. I'm saying this for argument's sake.) And then Sakura would have to be given some storyline that was fulfilling to her goals. Whether it was SS or head of the hospital or something like that.

Anyway, Kishimoto has an obligation to all of his audience, not just the ones who support a particular pairing over another. I'm interested to see how he will resolve the tension of shipping and get audience behind him in the decision.

He has painted Sakura to be rough, dismissive and possibly false to Naruto (the contested confession). Hinata has never been shown to have any flaws (excluding her own self-doubt, which only harms herself). So even though there is a lot of foreshadowing of NS as the final pairing, Kishimoto will have to restore support in Sakura before the general audience accepts it...and is happy about it.

So I guess it's not so much what's acceptable within the storyline, but what will be accepted by the fans and how Kishimoto will get to that point. Will he make people sympathize with Sakura? Or will he give Hinata another love interest? Or both?

Anyway, the more junk Kishimoto puts on Sakura (like the Naruto implying she's a liar) to keep the possibility of NH afloat, the more he will have to undo to make NS the final accepted pairing.

Ahh ok, i understand thank you for clearing that up. I agree with you on that. He will he will have to give sakura some more moments that make her shine and im very confident that this will happen as soon we get over this hinata development phase. I also as you said cant see kishi showing NH the final pairing since its already too late to show it without damaging the story a lot. Of course NH fans wont see any problem with it, but if some neutral fans read the manga they will realize that something went terribly wrong.

[shadow_Uzumaki]

He has painted Sakura to be rough, dismissive and possibly false to Naruto (the contested confession). Hinata has never been shown to have any flaws (excluding her own self-doubt, which only harms herself). So even though there is a lot of foreshadowing of NS as the final pairing, Kishimoto will have to restore support in Sakura before the general audience accepts it...and is happy about it.

So I guess it's not so much what's acceptable within the storyline, but what will be accepted by the fans and how Kishimoto will get to that point. Will he make people sympathize with Sakura? Or will he give Hinata another love interest? Or both?

Anyway, the more junk Kishimoto puts on Sakura (like the Naruto implying she's a liar) to keep the possibility of NH afloat, the more he will have to undo to make NS the final accepted pairing.

It's really just that whole, bolded bit, for me that makes me headbash against the wall. Without that 'confession,' I would've been perfectly content if Kishi had just made NS canon in some manner, whether the writing was good or meh-ish. With the 'confession,' it's a bit of a facepalm.... Making me treat Sakura with a bit of, "Really? Going for that kind of manipulation?" So, I would have to settle for some solid and decisive writing to pair NS up. Now Kishi'll have to prove that Sakura doesn't love Sasuke, that she is seriously in love with Naruto, Naruto has to settle the issue with Hinata.....

Really, the whole events after the collective Kages kicked Sasuke's ass out of Iron is when it all started to go wrong for me....

[PhenixElite]

It's really just that whole, bolded bit, for me that makes me headbash against the wall. Without that 'confession,' I would've been perfectly content if Kishi had just made NS canon in some manner, whether the writing was good or meh-ish. With the 'confession,' it's a bit of a facepalm.... Making me treat Sakura with a bit of, "Really? Going for that kind of manipulation?" So, I would have to settle for some solid and decisive writing to pair NS up. Now Kishi'll have to prove that Sakura doesn't love Sasuke, that she is seriously in love with Naruto, Naruto has to settle the issue with Hinata.....

Really, the whole events after the collective Kages kicked Sasuke's ass out of Iron is when it all started to go wrong for me....

I see the confession as some kind of speedbump. There need to be hurdles on the way, it gives the story drama and tension. Wouldnt you find it boring if it was that easy?

[shadow_Uzumaki]

I see the confession as some kind of speedbump. There need to be hurdles on the way, it gives the story drama and tension. Wouldnt you find it boring if it was that easy?

Not really. I would be glad it's done, over, and out of the way. Besides, even if they did get paired together at that point, they can still experience conflict and tension along the way.

Though, it's still not as bad as Inuyasha and Kagome dancing around each other despite knowing each other's feelings.


Still, I'm sorta over it. I just want this War arc to end. Though, I have a feeling how it ends will be quite...controversial.

[PhenixElite]

Not really. I would be glad it's done, over, and out of the way. Besides, even if they did get paired together at that point, they can still experience conflict and tension along the way.

Though, it's still not as bad as Inuyasha and Kagome dancing around each other despite knowing each other's feelings.


Still, I'm sorta over it. I just want this War arc to end. Though, I have a feeling how it ends will be quite...controversial.

I think it would be really bad to show them together already at that point. I would loose a lot of interest in the manga, there wouldnt be the same excitement during the sasuke and naruto fight. Alslo i think it would make prolblems for the plot in future events. We shouldnt forget that shonen manga dont show how couples act around each other, what is also a reson why the romance is always resolved in the end.