74 replies to this topic

[tricksie]

Theunburnt posted a great comment in the movie thread about Hayao Miyazaki's problems with the anime industry and how it connects to the ending of Naruto. Since this issue reaches far beyond just the movie topic, I thought I'd repost it as its own thread, so we could discuss Naruto and its place among other manga/anime. Will Naruto be remembered as a standout manga? Or is the ending/movie/spin-off bending to pressure from Japan's otaku culture, as Miyazaki puts it, with the anime becoming more important than the manga?

 

 

 

Miyazaki-sensei's words were truth

greenkaorichan:

Early this year, Hayao Miyazaki-sensei talked about the problem with anime industry, and his words basically were this:

According to Miyazaki the quality of anime is suffering because industry staff is made up of “otaku,” or people who obsessively love anime.

The term “otaku” has a rather negative connotation in Japan and is used more to classify fans who obsess over something (this need not be anime). Miyazaki’s specific concerns are over the lack of attention paid to people in real life. He said people in the industry “don’t spend time watching real people” and can be characterized as “humans who can’t stand looking at other humans.” He then called the industry “full of otaku.”

Link

Little we knew we were going to live this with the Naruto ending and specifically Naruto The Last.

You may be asking, what has to do Miyazaki’s statement against otaku ruling anime industry with Naruto’s ending?

Simply: Is a reflection of what happened.

As I said in a previous post of mine, Naruto the Last is basically Studio Pierrot’s self fulfilling fantasies with Hinata. They destroyed the conclusion of a story, and destroyed the personalities of the three main characters because their favoritism towards a secondary character. A secondary character who also happens to be part of the “moe” archetype as well is voiced by a very famous seiyuu/J-POP idol. 

It’s not a problem if the mangaka or the studio has a favorite character, the problem is when they ruin a story because their favoritism towards that character. And Studio Pierrot/Shonen Jump editors apparently didn’t thought that a better way to conclude Hinata’s character would be her overcoming her crush towards Naruto, becoming strong and a wise young leader for her clan. Instead, the best way for them to make her shine is reducing her as a damsel in distress who also has to lose her memory so Naruto can fall in love with her. Because apparently she without Naruto is nothing. Because it seems that the only way to exploit her character is giving her her “trophy” while overshadowing the protagonists.

Based on what I have said above, it seems that they don’t really care about Hinata as a character, but instead see her as a “kawaii” archetype that sells and that’s why they have to make a rushed, bad ending that in turn goes against the three protagonist’s character journeys to match their projected fantasies with Hinata, or at least how they see Hinata. To satisfy the desires of those fanboys that obsess over Hinata for what she represents (ie-moe) instead of what she is (her character).

Their obsession with Hinata destroyed Naruto.

That’s an otaku.

Sadly, Miyazaki-sensei is right. We got the proof in front our noses.

Money and otaku killed Naruto.

 

 

[Tiller]

The canon ending will be remembered as a lost opportunity.

 

NS fandom will be remembered as the fandom that could, and will eventually be fairly respected underground, because we will not surrender, and we will rebuild.

 

 

Kishimoto and his ilk can't destroy this fandom,and can't make us give up! Well NH/SS will slowly fall because they got their badly created "canon" ending, and will have little else to contribute. Those of us who loved this story for what it was, and still should be, will continue to create works of art or it. We will continue to defend it, and we will stand our ground the same way that the title character of this story used to stand.

 

Edited by Tiller, 02 December 2014 - 05:46 AM.

[ahmadaziz]

That was a very apt description of what happened and I couldn't have put it better myself. Hayao Miyazaki is correct in his diagnosis and the indsutry is indeed full of 'otaku'. It causes the anime/manga to only cater to a niche. Thus creating this self serving cycle where otaku create otaku art for other otaku. That is why I've not been able to really take up any manga/anime as I always feel them to be very disconnected from real life. Naruto, I only cared for because of NS, and look how that turned out.

 

All this sudden display of obsession with Hinata is actually making it very hard for me not to dislike her because of the way she is being forced upon other characters' development. I used to know her as the weird little girl with an obsession/crush on Naruto but now I can only describe her as the reason Naruto flopped for me. Which is really sad because all the characters had such huge potential and it was never utilized in a realistic and meaningful way.

 

I do hope that this changes soon as all this will do is keep the whole industry stagnant and closed to new ideas and how to execute them in more realisitc fashions.

 

@Tiller Amen to that. They should 'give up, on making us give up'

Edited by ahmadaziz, 02 December 2014 - 07:15 AM.

[Jio Freed]

Naruto.....the DBGT of the anime industry

[CloudMountainJuror]

It would be nice if Naruto were to be remembered for the manga, which is of better quality, but in all likelihood it'll be remembered through the anime. And, by extension, HInata. She and what she represents is what's arguably done the most damage to the story in the end, and she's going to be the last focus of the franchise. Not Team 7. Not even a different supporting character with more relevance and depth. Nope. kittening Hinata Hyuga. She's going to be Naruto's legacy.

Edited by CloudMountainJuror, 02 December 2014 - 10:13 AM.

[Jenskott]

I think both Miyazaki's words and the analysis are spot-on.

 

That phenomenon is not new. Otaku complaining about being ostracized (Have you watched Gundam ZZ opening? It has nothing to do with the show, it is only a long "Why can not you understand because I do not like anime?" sobbing rant. And Otaku no Video, one of the first Gainax's success is the embodiment of this) and still determined to fit the negative stereotype (Did you know what Rei Ayanami was intended to be nothing but an uncanny, creepy girl and a deconstruction of what male otakus think that their ideal wife should be like? Hideaki Anno was telling "THIS is what your ideal woman would be like if she was real. Do you still want this?" to otakus when he created that character. You know what the answer was). And the anime industry exclusively caters to them.

 

It is not a new phenomenon. Usually changes do not happen overnight. They happen gradually. And I would tell that you could spot the first signs of the current situation twenty years ago.

 

Anyway, the anime adaptation is usually best known that the manga version, even if it is often -albeit not always- superior. However the Naruto anime has got so bad due to tons of bad, stupid decissions that I am not sure of how popular it will be compared with the manga.

 

Anyway mark my words: several years from now, most Naruto fans that you find online -INCLUDING NH/SS fans- will declare that the ending is garbage. I have seen this maaaany times.

[rocci]

@jenskott
Are you sure they would do that?
I really hope justice will happen.

[Jenskott]

Well I am not certain (where I live people uses to tell that there are only two sure things in life: death and taxes). But I am reasonably sure.

 

I tell this basing on my experience with several fandoms, including the Ranma 1/2 fandom. Of course I may be wrong. However, after the end of a series, fandoms usually devolve into apatethic or angry messes. And often the leftovers of the fandom hate the canon. So do not be surprised if people eventually starts hating NH and SS BECAUSE they are canon.

[harry4e]

Well you know what they say, you are remembered by your final deeds or something like that.

 

Naruto will for many be remembered as the person who doesn't have time for his kids, the guy who went after a girl for almost  a decade because he wanted to win over his rival.

 

The anime is largely to blame for the perception, I don't know the exact times, but I would not be at all surprised that the part one fillers that concentrated so heavily on Hinata took place around the same time, Magical girl Nanoha had aired and became a cult classic, the Charactor of Fate (voiced by Nana Mizuki) was hugely popular, so we would have had on our hands not only Otaku's who were fans of the charactors taking their fantasies out by focusing on Hinata, we would hald have had suits capitalising on the popularity and milking it for all it's worth, add to that the massive gap they had to fill up between the end of part one and start of part two, we have a deadly combination.

 

Some people will just watch the anime, including every single filler episodes, they've pretty much been brainwashed to accept the crap SP spew out, so many probably don't even see the issue with the movie because as far as they are concerned everything in the fillers happened, and no matter how often you tell them otherwise they won't accept it.

[TouKen4Life3g]

For anime/manga, it will be remembered on what is like to be over popular and become the work of the people, not of a person. This series has many examples of what happened when the work becomes too much for one man, to the point where the people do the talking. By that, I mean not just the fans, but the editors, assistants, and so on. Keep in mind that this is the series that actually went through 2 and a half year of fillers and still continue without any regrets. No series come before this and when they do, they often end it and wait until the series goes any further.

There were many stories upon interviews and behind the scenes that sound like it was once promised but either fail to deliver because of plans change or because of poor executions. Essentially, this series became fans' series. By that, I mean fans can create their own take of the world and change the way to make themselves satisfied. That being said the work of a fan has become more than filling in the blank, rather something that should have happen or something that should have covered, as to say a "missed opportunity" become reality. This series provided too many of them and granted, other series grant the same; however, this one seems to be all over the place and cover all grounds, such as forgiving Cloud nins for Hyuuga incident, development to unused characters, and so on. Basically, it's a series where you have characters and a premise, and there you go.

It may impossible to see what Kishi truly wanted to create because his earlier works and such has been claim to be a failure until he hit a jackpot with Naruto...that is with huge changes. The series was going to be short since he only had a student and a teacher, but then suggestions after suggestions kept on coming and new ideas kept on coming. It was a sign when he said he doesn't know how to reach to those points. While people can have problems within their writing, the fact that he has this shows that not everyone such as him has a pre-plan idea and that can be where things can get rocky. He claimed that his work can always expand more and more but he called it off for reasons, though many speculated that his father's death took a huge toll because around that time, it was during the moment of Madara rises and Naruto was in dying breath. Quality seems to lost when the new powerups kick in and many of aspects, such as Madara being finale, seem to drop completely in favor to bring a new aspect that later said to be useless since nothing comes out of it. A fine example of change of plans and missed opportunity. Like I said, it's hard to know if this is what he truly wanted, especially how many aspects kept rewriting history (Hamura? Why wasn't he mentioned?). Because of this, the whole result went to a complete mess.

So in the end, what does it mean? Many of us would have a different take on remembering the series in a long run. Personally, I see it as a fun journey that ultimately led to a disappointing conclusion that doesn't hold the once key of the series: morals. It's not disappointing because of your preference didn't happen, such as pairing and missed opportunity like Sakura being developed further in power and mentality, it's disappointing because the work that sucked you in to their universe ended up so differently and lost its value of worth living there. It's equivalent to seeing your childhood friend becoming a shell of his/her former self, it's difficult to accept the way things are.

To answer the theme, I would remember this series that brought us to its world and ran by a roulette where it decides which world to explore in favor, and only few would be satisfied without thoughts or reasons. If anything, it's a lesson of dedication to your own passion of work and do what you always believe in and never let that go. Sometimes, we learn the mistakes down the road, but that doesn't mean others would be the one to know the solution. It's your work and you can overcome that mistake, or else, there's no reason to put more effort if it isn't yours anymore. The world may never know what was Kishimoto's mind throughout the years. Perhaps it was always editors' ideas and not his, as pointed out numerous of times. Perhaps this is his decision because he felt that he can't do it, he can't write it well, or gave up trying. Who knows who made this absolute decision making. Who knows if he is aware of his work that fans see it as a lore. If anything, learn his path and see what you could do better or differently. Sure enough, your work in fiction can be your own success.

Edited by NaruSaku4Life3g, 02 December 2014 - 02:10 PM.

[tricksie]

Changed the title from "How will Naruto be remembered? Manga or anime?" to "Did the Naruto ending bend to outside pressure?"

 

I realized the question didn't best fit with the OP.  But still answer all of the above, as they all tie in together!

[Narufan85]

I have to believe there was some outside pressure shaping Naruto's ending. If there wasn't, I'm not sure I can wrap my head around the internal logic Kishi used to determine the ending. If there was no outside pressure, I can't comprehend why SS and NH happened, when so much of the manga pointed us in a different direction. If there was no outside pressure, I can't comprehend why 699 features no interaction between Naruto and Sakura; no resolution to their mutual struggle to grow, mature, and stand together in returning Sasuke. If there was no outside pressure, I can't comprehend why 700 reads like an advertisement, filled with odd pairings, bland children, and inconsistent art.

All of this is a shame. Perhaps my own views are skewed by the fact that I made a point to stop watching the anime and only read the manga because I was so unhappy with all the filler. But in the end, I think time will not be kind to Naruto. When the hardcore NH/SS fans get over "winning" the pairing wars, they will realize the blatant retcon and poor logic were bad decisions by KIshi.

[NaruSaku fan in Kentucky]

Mizaki would spit on the ending.

[ahmadaziz]

Why are people still believing that Naruto can end up with Sakura in canon? They have already given their epilogue and it has clearly stated what happened. I don't see any reason they will change it now. Can you imagine the fallout that will occur after they change canon pairings now? The amount of flak all the staff will get from the NH and SS fanbase. They will literally set fire to the studio if their pairings are withdrawn after being made canon.

 

They can't tell you about the story because they will get penalized for breaking confidentiality. Even if it is something as obvious as the end pairing.

 

Not to mention that they have pretty much destroyed NS in these two chapters as much as they destroyed the other pairings in the whole series. That's why every body lost in the end except for the producers and those pairing fans who just wanted the bragging rights.

Edited by ahmadaziz, 02 December 2014 - 05:05 PM.

[ahmadaziz]

Referring to the question, I'll have to agree with Narufan85, there is no logic and sense to the ending we got. Either the writing team was that bad at their jobs or they had to have caved under outside pressure. The second reason seems much more likely because nobody can be that bad and still be made responsible for one of the biggest manga around.

 

But you have to then wonder that if he was forced, why is Kishimoto so excited for the movie? Not to mention the movie hasn't been just created. It would have taken at least an year and a half to make it, and that's without taking into account the whole planning stage.

 

I personally believe that after a certain point they, the whole team, were just leading the NS fanbase on and on by giving NS more and more development to keep the maximum amount of followers and then dumped this ending when at the last moment possible. They had to have NH to ensure that their next gen spin off will sell. None of this can be decided just like that. These are top level decisions that should have been some time in the making.

 

Or, it could just be that they really were that bad and this was a satisfying conclusion in their opinions.

[Shourai]

That was a very apt description of what happened and I couldn't have put it better myself. Hayao Miyazaki is correct in his diagnosis and the indsutry is indeed full of 'otaku'. It causes the anime/manga to only cater to a niche. Thus creating this self serving cycle where otaku create otaku art for other otaku. That is why I've not been able to really take up any manga/anime as I always feel them to be very disconnected from real life. Naruto, I only cared for because of NS, and look how that turned out.

 

All this sudden display of obsession with Hinata is actually making it very hard for me not to dislike her because of the way she is being forced upon other characters' development. I used to know her as the weird little girl with an obsession/crush on Naruto but now I can only describe her as the reason Naruto flopped for me. Which is really sad because all the characters had such huge potential and it was never utilized in a realistic and meaningful way.

 

I do hope that this changes soon as all this will do is keep the whole industry stagnant and closed to new ideas and how to execute them in more realisitc fashions.

 

@Tiller Amen to that. They should 'give up, on making us give up'

 

That's actually why I haven't been reading many manga--they always seem to be chock-full of shy, moe types who all have the same personality and like the same guy. It's all just more of the same.   

There was a time when I thought that Naruto was different, but no.

[Suigetsu]

But you have to then wonder that if he was forced, why is Kishimoto so excited for the movie?

He HAS to look excited, because of marketing reasons.

If he looked all "mehh" then people wouldnt want to watch it.

[harry4e]

Referring to the question, I'll have to agree with Narufan85, there is no logic and sense to the ending we got. Either the writing team was that bad at their jobs or they had to have caved under outside pressure. The second reason seems much more likely because nobody can be that bad and still be made responsible for one of the biggest manga around.

 

But you have to then wonder that if he was forced, why is Kishimoto so excited for the movie? Not to mention the movie hasn't been just created. It would have taken at least an year and a half to make it, and that's without taking into account the whole planning stage.

 

I personally believe that after a certain point they, the whole team, were just leading the NS fanbase on and on by giving NS more and more development to keep the maximum amount of followers and then dumped this ending when at the last moment possible. They had to have NH to ensure that their next gen spin off will sell. None of this can be decided just like that. These are top level decisions that should have been some time in the making.

 

Or, it could just be that they really were that bad and this was a satisfying conclusion in their opinions.

 

I think their plan for part three is to have Sarada and Bolt's relationship being something between Naruto & Sakura and Sasuke & Naruto, that's the angle they are aiming likely to aim for. They probably know that now that NH fanboy and girls have their ending they won't care for the medium and leave the manga anyway. There is literally nothing for them in the sequel, All these guys cared about was them getting together, they didn't even care how just that it happened.

 

They probably thought the neutrals. the NaruSaku, and NaruSasu fans will all stay on to see the next gen get the pairings they hoped to have gotten...not realising that for many of the fans the way they went about getting the parents of the two together has done quite a bit of damage to the manga that it may not be enough to convince any of the other fans to care. Well the Neutrals will probably not care. Though if there is no war will the fan who cared only about the action care either? I'm not sure.

[rocci]

He HAS to look excited, because of marketing reasons.
If he looked all "mehh" then people wouldnt want to watch it.

Or he just love making movie than manga. Even thought I don't think he take many decision in this movie compare to when he in Rtn.

[hinataiscreepy]

I can see why Otakus and SP totally forgot about what Hinata's character s was in part 1.

 

Hmmm I expected her to become more confident, becoming stronger, being acknowledged by her dad, becoming a leader and changing the hyuga traditions. These are messages that are consistent with what the series was about.

 

The film clearly does not give a eff about this and so do the otakus. This explains why female characters like Tashigi that actually try to be more than submissive dolls with boobs are not loved. Female characters with no flaws... that's a scary vision of life.