216 replies to this topic

[Darth Krypt]

Darth Krypt, don't patronize me. I think we both know that you had formed your opinion on me quite a while ago. So let's save ourselves the trouble and end our replies to one another here, shall we?

I'll tell you what, I will address your post. But not on the topic of Sakura versus Hinata, because I would say that moment has passed. Both approaches, appeal to authority and fan speculation, have a purpose. But you cannot mix and match, otherwise it's pointless. You cannot ask "Who do you think is strongest," expecting a discussion based on opinion, and then run to the data books to put an end to it. It defeats the entire purpose. So pick a path and stick to it, or don't bother. Kishimoto says Hinata is the weaker of the two. What difference do my opinions make now?

Oh I didn't use the databooks as my reference. I've already shown you my reference, the manga events which is actually catering to your beliefs as what is proof. Now I want you to show ME your support for saying Hinata can defeat Sakura. That's ALL I ask for Pachuco. Seems like you're always trying to skirt your way around this.

[PachucoDesigns]

Oh I didn't use the databooks as my reference. I've already shown you my reference, the manga events which is actually catering to your beliefs as what is proof. Now I want you to show ME your support for saying Hinata can defeat Sakura. That's ALL I ask for Pachuco. Seems like you're always trying to skirt your way around this.

Ok, then. Are you only taking manga as reference? Because if that's the case, there's little if nothing to go by. She's been in very few fights, and has had almost no chance to showcase her abilities.

[Greed-Sama]

Ok, then. Are you only taking manga as reference? Because if that's the case, there's little if nothing to go by. She's been in very few fights, and has had almost no chance to showcase her abilities.

The manga is the only thing that can be referred to as canon and therefore is the only applicable evidence. Unless we're counting databook statistics then Hinata loses anyway.

[PachucoDesigns]

The manga is the only thing that can be referred to as canon and therefore is the only applicable evidence. Unless we're counting databook statistics then Hinata loses anyway.

Then the discussion ends here. Because the evidence does not exist in the manga, as there are no fights in which to find it. And if the data book is the final word, then it doesn't matter.

[Darth Krypt]

Ok, then. Are you only taking manga as reference? Because if that's the case, there's little if nothing to go by. She's been in very few fights, and has had almost no chance to showcase her abilities.

There you go. Now you know why we said Sakura can defeat Hinata? Just like how Neji is the strongest? Because Neji has proven himself in a lot of fights how strong he is just like how Sakura proves herself in a fight against Sasori. And don't give me the Kishi is the writer so he can do anything he wants. That's not the point. If it is, it is as you say, discussing is pointless. This is just fan speculating so you really can't say anything against that. If you can't support your claim, then your speculation is just random and holds no real value.

[PachucoDesigns]

There you go. Now you know why we said Sakura can defeat Hinata? Just like how Neji is the strongest? Because Neji has proven himself in a lot of fights how strong he is just like how Sakura proves herself in a fight against Sasori. And don't give me the Kishi is the writer so he can do anything he wants. That's not the point. If it is, it is as you say, discussing is pointless. This is just fan speculating so you really can't say anything against that. If you can't support your claim, then your speculation is just random and holds no real value.

And that is exactly where your argument falls through the floor. Because until Hinata is given just as much chance to demonstrate her own abilities, then you have no basis for your comparison. I joined a chess club a long time ago. One of my first opponents was a six year old kid. I assumed, without seeing his game, that just about anyone in the room could have taken him on experience alone. And I made that reasoning because I had seen most of them play. So, I played this kid. It was one of the most crushing defeats I've ever suffered, and I am no slouch. Turns out, this kid was a prodigy. Who knew?

Edited by PachucoDesigns, 30 March 2012 - 05:05 AM.

[Greed-Sama]

And that is exactly where your argument falls through the floor. Because until Hinata is given just as much chance to demonstrate her own abilities, then you have no basis for your comparison. I joined a chess club a long time ago. One of my first opponents was a six year old kid. I assumed, without seeing his game, that just about anyone in the room could have taken him on experience alone. And I made that reasoning because I had seen most of them play. So, I played this kid. It was one of the most crushing defeats I've ever suffered, and I am no slouch. Turns out, this kid was a prodigy. Who knew?

I'm going to weigh in with my personal belief. I think Hinata's Gentle Palm Technique could be able to take on Sakura's ability to place chakra into her muscles. Just because Hinata isn't Neji, doesn't make her ninjutsu any less powerful. I personally believe that Hinata would win based solely on techniques; however, on that note, I think Sakura's experience wins out in the end. Sakura has faced down one of the Akatsuki, and Sasori was no slouch.

[PachucoDesigns]

I'm going to weigh in with my personal belief. I think Hinata's Gentle Palm Technique could be able to take on Sakura's ability to place chakra into her muscles. Just because Hinata isn't Neji, doesn't make her ninjutsu any less powerful. I personally believe that Hinata would win based solely on techniques; however, on that note, I think Sakura's experience wins out in the end. Sakura has faced down one of the Akatsuki, and Sasori was no slouch.

Which is a reasonable observation. Now, I don't think we can say for sure which would be more potent, nor who would really win. All we can go by is the abilities we know they have. In a fight against puppets, the ability of earth-shattering punches is far more useful than any gently fist. But if you're fighting someone of flesh and bone, that's where things get interesting. If Sakura catches Hinata, then it's over, and she'll be a pile of broken bones. If Hinata catches Sakura, then it's over, as her organs will be turned into a puree and she'll be bleeding from every orafice. So, it all boils down to who is faster, and who can land the first blow.

Now, I don't know if you watch boxing or not, but there's something important here. Power means more energy expended, hits harder but not as efficient, and costs you dearly when you miss. Sakura "throws bombs," as boxers like to say. Every time you miss, you get closer to exhausting yourself. The gentle fist is very subtle and efficient, she doesn't need to take a bigger swing to make you hurt more. That is what can prove to be deadly in the long run. And that is likely why they called Jyuuken the most powerful taijutsu in the Hidden Leaf.

[Greed-Sama]

Now, I don't know if you watch boxing or not, but there's something important here. Power means more energy expended, hits harder but not as efficient, and costs you dearly when you miss. Sakura "throws bombs," as boxers like to say. Every time you miss, you get closer to exhausting yourself. The gentle fist is very subtle and efficient, she doesn't need to take a bigger swing to make you hurt more. That is what can prove to be deadly in the long run. And that is likely why they called Jyuuken the most powerful taijutsu in the Hidden Leaf.

I was a martial artist. I'm quite aware of the power vs. speed argument, which is why I give Hinata credit where credit is due.

I'm also of the opinion that Neji isn't as "strong" as Shikamaru. I personally believe the man's intellect is enough to be able to sufficiently deal with Neji, even though if the two were caught in a taijutsu match, Shikamaru would be destroyed.

[PachucoDesigns]

I was a martial artist. I'm quite aware of the power vs. speed argument, which is why I give Hinata credit where credit is due.

I'm also of the opinion that Neji isn't as "strong" as Shikamaru. I personally believe the man's intellect is enough to be able to sufficiently deal with Neji, even though if the two were caught in a taijutsu match, Shikamaru would be destroyed.

Exactly, and that's the point. Shikamaru would not allow himself to be put in that position if he doesn't have to. That is his true strength.

If people would start thinking along these terms instead of "well, Sakura has grown, and she was trained by Tsunade!," or "but Kishi said this!!!," then this might make for a more interesting discussion. When asked who would win between Shikamaru or Neji, most people would throw Neji's name out on the floor like it's no contest.

I swear, I saw a comment that said "if it weren't for her Byakugan, Hinata would have been dead by now." That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. You cannot take a core part of someone's skills away and then say they'd be dead without it, like they're weak to rely on it. The same could be said for Neji. Every one of his skills works in tandem with the Byakugan. It's like saying Naruto would be dead by now if it weren't for the Nine Tails, or that Sasuke would be dead by now if it weren't for the Sharingan. It's ridiculous.

Edited by PachucoDesigns, 30 March 2012 - 05:29 AM.

[The Tax-Man]

Well, thinking along the lines of power vs speed, Sakura was able to fight full power against Sasori for more than half an hour, I'd guess. That tells us she CAN keep punching for a long time and is fast (she needed to dodge, as Piccolo would say). Remember that while Sakura uses blunt force, she is trained to use it for a long time too. So I doubt any would tire out faster or leave any openings, them both trained to do so like everyone else. Personally, their taijutsu styles are matched. BUT, the reason I say Sakura would win is because taijutsu is not all she has. She uses weapons, poisons, heals herself and is quick-witted(Zetsu).

[PachucoDesigns]

Well, thinking along the lines of power vs speed, Sakura was able to fight full power against Sasori for more than half an hour, I'd guess. That tells us she CAN keep punching for a long time and is fast (she needed to dodge, as Piccolo would say). Remember that while Sakura uses blunt force, she is trained to use it for a long time too. So I doubt any would tire out faster or leave any openings, them both trained to do so like everyone else. Personally, their taijutsu styles are matched. BUT, the reason I say Sakura would win is because taijutsu is not all she has. She uses weapons, poisons, heals herself and is quick-witted(Zetsu).

That's a matter of endurance, but it still doesn't matter. Sakura is still using energy at a much higher rate. Unless you're saying that Sakura has a vastly greater energy capacity than Hinata, eventually, Sakura will be the first to wear herself out. Plus, just the motion of a big swing leaves much bigger openings than the quick strikes of the Jyuuken. Hinata can use weapons, as well. And I don't know if we're counting Hinata's 8 tetragrams 64 palms as canon or not. But if we are, that can handle oncoming weapon attacks nicely. Especially when paired with the all-seeing Byakugan.

Edited by PachucoDesigns, 30 March 2012 - 05:49 AM.

[merryGOflava]

That's a matter of endurance, but it still doesn't matter. Sakura is still using energy at a much higher rate. Unless you're saying that Sakura has vastly more energy capacity than Hinata, eventually, Sakura will be the first to wear herself out. Plus, just the motion of a big swing leaves much bigger openings than the quick strikes of the Jyuuken. Hinata can use weapons, as well. And I don't know if we're counting Hinata's 8 tetragrams 64 palms as canon or not. But if we are, that can handle oncoming weapon attacks nicely. Especially when paired with the all-seeing Byakugan.

hinata has never been known to even use kunai!!? anyway.

1)sakura can heal
2)sakura is faster
3)sakura is great at dodging
4)sakura is smarter
5)sakura has super human strength (she just needs ONE punch...not two...ONE!!)
6)sakura is tricky (shes good at fooling people) did it with sasori, sound nin, tried it with sasuke.
7)sakura is strong-willed and determined (hates to lose like naruto) stated by kakashi
8)sakura is good at chakra control which helps her last longer not using all her energy
9)she catches on quick......learns fast (sasori fight)

....sakura is better than hinata. im sorry....its not that hinata isnt good.

sakura is the neji of the girls...or maybe the naruto, she beats all the other konoha 11 girls. her feats are just better.

Edited by merryGOflava, 30 March 2012 - 05:58 AM.

[The Tax-Man]

That's a matter of endurance, but it still doesn't matter. Sakura is still using energy at a much higher rate. Unless you're saying that Sakura has a vastly greater energy capacity than Hinata, eventually, Sakura will be the first to wear herself out. Plus, just the motion of a big swing leaves much bigger openings than the quick strikes of the Jyuuken. Hinata can use weapons, as well. And I don't know if we're counting Hinata's 8 tetragrams 64 palms as canon or not. But if we are, that can handle oncoming weapon attacks nicely. Especially when paired with the all-seeing Byakugan.

Did you even get what I said? o.O

1. I'm saying Tsunade is not stupid. Sakura was obviously trained to overcome these openings she may leave with a) not swinging wide like a toddler; and b) being able to dodge any and all attacks.

2. I meant the specialised tools Sakura uses.

3. You forget that Sakura is extremely efficient with her chakra. She will NOT wear herself out any faster, since her punches only release chakra upon contact (first time she uses it). So if it doesn't hit, more or less no chakra is used. Simple logic. However, the gentle fist releases chakra upon every TRIED hit, as seen in the Chunin exams preliminaries.

4. No, we absolutely disregard anything that's not in the manga.

5. The Byakugan may see all, but it does not help you see any better. It simply increases your field of view and lets you see inside objects and bodies. Unlike the Sharingan, it can't decrease perception time or anything.

Edited by The Tax-Man, 30 March 2012 - 06:06 AM.

[PachucoDesigns]

hinata has never been known to even use kunai!!? anyway.

1)sakura can heal
2)sakura is faster
3)sakura is great at dodging
4)sakura is smarter
5)sakura has super human strength (she just needs ONE punch...not two...ONE!!)
6)sakura is tricky (shes good at fooling people) did it with sasori, sound nin, tried it with sasuke.
7)sakura is strong-willed and determined (hates to lose like naruto) stated by kakashi
8)sakura is good at chakra control which helps her last longer not using all her energy
9)she catches on quick......learns fast (sasori fight)

....sakura is better than hinata. im sorry....its not that hinata isnt good.

sakura is the neji of the girls...or maybe the naruto, she beats all the other konoha 11 girls. her feats are just better.

Just because she doesn't doesn't mean she can't.

1) The ability to heal isn't going to do you much good if your heart explodes.
2) How do you know?
3) How do you know Hinata isn't?
4) How do you know?
5) And Hinata only needs one punch to destroy your heart and end you. Not two. One.
6) Depends on who you're trying to fool. Did you forget that the byakugan can read people's thoughts based on their minute actions?
7) Hinata seemed pretty strong willed to me when she kept standing up during her fight with Neji.
8) Hinata must be, too. Otherwise she wouldn't be able to use the abilities so unique to her clan.
9) And how do you know Hinata doesn't?

I'm sorry, but you're making a lot of assumptions. I don't see how she is better than Hinata, not based on what you just said.

Did you even get what I said? o.O

1. I'm saying Tsunade is not stupid. Sakura was obviously trained to overcome these openings she may leave with a) not swinging wide like a toddler; and b) being able to dodge any and all attacks.

2. I meant the specialised tools Sakura uses.

3. You forget that Sakura is extremely efficient with her chakra. She will NOT wear herself out any faster, since her punches only release chakra upon contact (first time she uses it). So if it doesn't hit, more or less no chakra is used. Simple logic. However, the gentle fist releases chakra upon every TRIED hit, as seen in the Chunin exams preliminaries.

4. No, we absolutely disregard anything that's not in the manga.

5. The Byakugan may see all, but it does not help you see any better. It simply increases your field of view and lets you see inside objects and bodies. Unlike the Sharingan, it can't decrease perception time or anything.

1. I don't care what you're taught. If you're going for a stronger physical blow, you're going to wind up farther, you're going to throw harder, and you're going to put more burden on your muscles. That's just how it works.

2. And what specialized tools would those be?

3. I'm not talking about chakra. I'm talking about physical stamina. If you throw bombs, and if you keep missing, you wear yourself out and you ruin your line of sight. It's not the energy that's lost on contact that's the problem, it's the energy that's wasted in the swing. Which will be particularly problematic against the Byakugan.

4. Of course.

5. And that's all it takes. If she can see you from wherever you are, and for miles around, no sneaky antics are going to get by. Traps are not going to be effective. And if your fighting style relies more on physical damage, your movements will not be subtle, so it won't take much to see through them. The only exception here is Lee, and only because his speed is far above and beyond anyone else. "It doesn't matter if you can see my attack if you're too slow to counter it."

Edited by PachucoDesigns, 30 March 2012 - 06:25 AM.

[merryGOflava]

Just because she doesn't doesn't mean she can't.

1) The ability to heal isn't going to do you much good if your heart explodes.
2) How do you know?
3) How do you know Hinata isn't?
4) How do you know?
5) And Hinata only needs one punch to destroy your heart and end you. Not two. One.
6) Depends on who you're trying to fool. Did you forget that the byakugan can read people's thoughts based on their minute actions?
7) Hinata seemed pretty strong willed to me when she kept standing up during her fight with Neji.
8) Hinata must be, too. Otherwise she wouldn't be able to use the abilities so unique to her clan.
9) And how do you know Hinata doesn't?

1)??? heart explodes?? why would sakura's heart explode??? O_o?? anyway she could she find a nice hiding spot and heal away, she heals fast and she did it in front of sasori

2) caaaauuuusssssee the databooks say sakura's faster

3) im saying tsunade helped sakura get very good at dodging because shes a medic nin(so shes probably better at it)

4)0__0.....cause shes was the smartest girl and kid (right by shikamaru) in the class....said it several times.....and..once again...the databooks say so!!! XD....

5)???? huh??? since when? i mean sakura's punch can kill...cause it showed it can. but when did hinata's fist do anything like that??

6)..........................the byukugan cant read thoughts??..........all it can do is see in all directions(and i think inside you literally)? the sharingan can do that.

7) yea shes strong-willed also, though sakura is on naruto's level of stubborn. hinata will get back up.....sakura will get back up while yelling at you XDDDD (as shown with sasori) shes just feistier. the databooks say sakura hates to lose

8)..............dude........dont give credit unless its stated....or shown.....kakashi said that sakura's chakra control was awesome....even tsunade said it was good. sakura just has awesome chakra control....its her thing. THATS WHY SHES A GREAT HEALER PRODIGY!!!

9.....>w>.....she didnt catch that neji was nailing her with his chakra blocking abilites before it was too late.......

based on what i said....sakura IS better. come on!! shes the heroine afterall what do you expect?

Edited by merryGOflava, 30 March 2012 - 07:02 AM.

[PachucoDesigns]

1)??? heart explodes?? why would sakura's heart explode??? O_o?? anyway she could she find a nice hiding spot and heal away, she heals fast and she did it in front of sasori

2) caaaauuuusssssee the databooks say sakura's faster

3) im saying tsunade helped sakura get very good at dodging because shes a medic nin(so shes probably better at it)

4)0__0.....cause shes was the smartest girl and kid (right by shikamaru) in the class....said it several times.....and..once again...the databooks say so!!! XD....

5)???? huh??? since when? i mean sakura's punch can kill...cause it showed it can. but when did hinata's fist do anything like that??

6)..........................the byukugan cant read thoughts??..........all it can do is see in all directions(and i think inside you literally)? the sharingan can do that.

7) yea shes strong-willed also, though sakura is on naruto's level of stubborn. hinata will get back up.....sakura will get back up while yelling at you XDDDD (as shown with sasori) shes just feistier. the databooks say sakura hates to lose

8)..............dude........dont give credit unless its stated....or shown.....kakashi said that sakura's chakra control was awesome....even tsunade said it was good. sakura just has awesome chakra control....its her thing. THATS WHY SHES A GREAT HEALER PRODIGY!!!

9.....>w>.....she didnt catch that neji was nailing her with his chakra blocking abilites before it was too late.......

based on what i said....sakura IS better. come on!! shes the heroine afterall what do you expect?

1) Did you forget what the gentle fist does? Did you forget that the entire purpose of the byakugan is to find you where you hide?

2) Of course.

3) Not necessarily. I'm pretty sure dodging is high on the priority for anyone who doesn't wish to get killed.

4) I don't care about the databooks. Stick to reasoning from the story itself if you have an opinion. Unless there is a staggering gap in their intelligence, I doubt it will matter much. It's not like we're comparing her to Naruto.

5) Yeah, you really don't pay attention. That is the entire point of the gentle fist. That is what the Jyuuken is. Every trained Hyuga can do it.

6) Show me the difference. When has Hinata ever retreated to get backup? And when has she ever outright quit?

7) The byakugan can detect the minute movements of the face and body that signal a person's psychological state. That's something Neji demonstrated. It's not an ability unique to him. Even Kakashi said that the Byakugan's ability of perception is superior to the standard Sharingan, and that the Sharingan is most likely a descendant from the doujutsu of the Hyuga.

8) If she does not have good chakra control, then please tell me how she is capable of doing ANYTHING a Hyuga is supposed to do? Learn to use your own reasoning aside from what is spelled out for you directly.

9) Neji's perceptive abilities are far superior to both Hinata and Sakura. Sakura would have suffered the same fate. The only reason Sakura had any idea what was going on was because Kakashi was explaining it to her as it happened.

I do not care that she is the heroine. It means nothing. There are other character archetypes and plot devices that are important. One such thing is the "Threshold Guardian," a character who is deliberately superior to the main character, or in some way represents a barrier which needs to be surpassed before they can realize their true potential. Sometimes it's an enemy, sometime's an ally, and sometimes just a neutral party that the hero/heroine envies or strives to emulate. The protagonist will not always be the strongest, or the best.

[merryGOflava]

1) Did you forget what the gentle fist does? Did you forget that the entire purpose of the byakugan is to find you where you hide?

2) Of course.

3) Not necessarily. I'm pretty sure dodging is high on the priority for anyone who doesn't wish to get killed.

4) I don't care about the databooks. Stick to reasoning from the story itself if you have an opinion. Unless there is a staggering gap in their intelligence, I doubt it will matter much. It's not like we're comparing her to Naruto.

5) Yeah, you really don't pay attention. That is the entire point of the gentle fist. That is what the Jyuuken is. Every trained Hyuga can do it.

6) Show me the difference. When has Hinata ever retreated to get backup? And when has she ever outright quit?

7) The byakugan can detect the minute movements of the face and body that signal a person's psychological state. That's something Neji demonstrated. It's not an ability unique to him. Even Kakashi said that the Byakugan's ability of perception is superior to the standard Sharingan, and that the Sharingan is most likely a descendant from the doujutsu of the Hyuga.

8) If she does not have good chakra control, then please tell me how she is capable of doing ANYTHING a Hyuga is supposed to do? Learn to use your own reasoning aside from what is spelled out for you directly.

9) Neji's perceptive abilities are far superior to both Hinata and Sakura. Sakura would have suffered the same fate. The only reason Sakura had any idea what was going on was because Kakashi was explaining it to her as it happened.

I do not care that she is the heroine. It means nothing. There are other character archetypes and plot devices that are important. One such thing is the "Threshold Guardian," a character who is deliberately superior to the main character, or in some way represents a barrier which needs to be surpassed before they can realize their true potential. Sometimes it's an enemy, sometime's an ally, and sometimes just a neutral party that the hero/heroine envies or strives to emulate. The protagonist will not always be the strongest, or the best.

1) like i said she did it in front of sasori XD just get some distance and heal.

2) im just stating the facts sorry XD

3) well why did she need a chapter explaining how she trained with tsunade about getting better at dodging since shes a medic and thats a priority?????

4) ......it said several times in the manga sakura was smart!!! just like it said several times shikamaru was smart!! XDDD.........sakura has always been one smart cookie. and databooks should be okay....even if its not in your favor >w>

5).....okay??? well i havent seen any exploding hearts yet?....i havent even seen neji try it...sooo.....XD.........

6)? huh??? i said hinata never gave up, didnt it? but sakura is like naruto when it comes to determination (stated by kakashi)

7)....noo......i think kakshi said it was good at perception...meaning it can see better than sharingan..(literally) not like figuring out a persons moves before they make it....but ACTUALLY seeing.

8)........................im saying sakura is special when it comes to chakra control........okay....let me put it this way...hinata might be good at chakra control....but sakura is PERFECT at it.....its one of her special abilities she was always praised for.

9)uh...huh.....so your saying no one can dodge the gentle fist?

.....shes the heroine....she BECAME better. naruto is the hero he BECAME better than everyone right now.
hinata might have been stronger in part 1 but through struggle and lots of training sakura proved she is the better kounichi.

....im sorry but...im stating facts from the manga. your just assuming hinata is better because she has the byukugan.........

the byukugan doesnt make you the best....look how neji vs naruto's fight turned out. nailed him in the jaw, never saw it coming.

Edited by merryGOflava, 30 March 2012 - 07:43 AM.

[PachucoDesigns]

Yeah, I think I'm done here. This is going absolutely nowhere, and I don't have the patience for it, nor the Advil supply. Later.

[Madz]

Okay, to shorten the debate:

If I was to hire someone from the Konoha 11 for the mission of protecting me (yeah, let's pretend I'm a princess or a some other Big hot-shot, I can dream right? )

I would, hand UP, without the slightest hesitation, take Sakura over ANY other person of Konoha 11.

Why?
Because she would explode the ground under anyone approaching me, would punch the bones to a pulp out of anyone coming near enough to me, and in the last case if I'm in a way wounded, she would heal me back to life.

There. None of the Konoha 11 can do that!!!