43 replies to this topic

[Sakura Blossoms]

Because Harry Potter talk invariably always seems to find a way to leak into Naruto topic discussions, usually as a way to compare and contrast different elements in both series, let's just have a thread dedicated to all things and discussions Harry Potter. From pairings, to character dissections, and everything else in between. As with all topics on this forum bashing is not allowed. We can disagree with something someone says strongly, but let's keep things polite and civil. And to start things off, I'll just port a quoted reply by ciardha from the 'Hinata' thread to reply to here

I guess it because I've read so much fiction, but I knew it would be Ron/Hermoine from the start. I was surprised that Rowling made Ron so unlikeable in the later books though- he cheats on their budding relationship more than once, he acts like a complete ass when they (Harry, Hermoine, Ron) have to go on the run, and he even abandons them for several months.... Rowling keeps undermining what she should have been building up....

I also knew from the moment fangirl Ginny was introduced she was an author insert (the dreaded Mary-Sue) and would end up with Harry. Rowling's major romantic couples are pretty unappealing all around, look at who Lilly ends up with, even though Rowling herself said Lilly would have chosen Snape if he hadn't joined the Death Eaters, but Lilly changing over to fawning over the ring leader of Snape's bullies is what drove him into the deatheaters.

It comes through pretty obviously too that Snape loved Lilly far more than that jock bully James did. Rowling writes as if the Marauders were heroic, but they were just the popular jock bully boys- especially James and Sirus. There's been some interesting psychological examinations of Rowlings books, about what it reveals about Rowling, etc...

I would love to see those psychological reports. Fans of Rowling will call her the greatest fantasy writer since Tolkien. They are of course, and no insult intended, delusional. Tolkien was a master at his writing craft. The fact that Rowling encourages and endorses the 'bad boy/bully/jerk character' to always get the girl, is just a terrible and horrible message to send. And young girl readers eat it up.

[ciardha]

I'll see if I can track them down, it's been a couple of years or so since I read them. My younger sister and I have had conversations about the books where we were both irritated about the very issue you bring up, Shauna. (My sister is also a major Snape/Lilly shipper, and got me into that ship too- especially with how Rowling keeps dropping hints about the "if onlies" with those two when questioned in post series interviews... We're both waiting to see if Snape's backstory will finally actually play the significant role in the last movie that it did in the last three books before we bother to go see it in the theator.

[Derock]

...and I just finished watching Book 7: Part 1...

But yeah, I remembered that Ron X Herimone was on the works since Book 2. It wasn't get into full force until Book 6. But then again, Harry Potter shipping weren't near my mind as heavy as Naruto shipping because I was only focusing on the plot and where was the story heading. I didn't even care about who's going to end up with whom (Although I was like, "huh, LilySnape? How did that get in there?! And why they felt more developed than JamesLily?!") in Book 7. Although, I do agree about Ron's radical change in later books. I mean, damn, he had done some things that made me saying, "The f-ing hell are you doing and thinking, Ron?!" Book 7 was the tip of the iceberg because of his jealousy which made him left the group for a couple of months. But, he's a character that has many flaws to begin with.

Harry and Ginny, on the other hand, was a bit forced. And that started around Book 5, and began to increase. I mean how did Harry began to love her that soon... I didn't remember hearing him started to like Ginny in Book 2 and then all of a sudden, they started to hook up in Book 6.

But here something I just saw today:

For HarryHerimone fans --Click here to view--

When Ron saw that horrible vision from the locket, the illusion shown Harry and Herimone saying that they don't want him in the group and then show them getting it on like crazy and even naked... I was like, "Wow, what a way to please the HarryHerimone fans with THAT scene."

[Anguyen92]

I'm gonna have to agree with you Derock, that I was interested in Harry Potter for plot and story as oppose to pairings, thought that there might be some weird love triangle. And as for that spoiler, hehehe.

[CloudMountainJuror]

You know, I never noticed that the pairings tended to be pro-badboys. That just damaged the series severely for me.
Although, I don't see why people are hating on Ron... he wasn't a complete jerk. He would die for both of them, truly cares about them, and yes, is immature at times, but not a complete a**hole. As for him leaving in Book 7...it's already been established that it was the locket's influence that made him do it.

[ciardha]

I would love to see those psychological reports. Fans of Rowling will call her the greatest fantasy writer since Tolkien. They are of course, and no insult intended, delusional. Tolkien was a master at his writing craft. The fact that Rowling encourages and endorses the 'bad boy/bully/jerk character' to always get the girl, is just a terrible and horrible message to send. And young girl readers eat it up.

Found one online already and it has a nice long bibliography of other articles:


http://www.sosyalara...n_krunoslav.pdf

and here's another, more critical of Rowling's writing

http://www.gregoryde...rry_Potter.html

Hey, there's even a book, you can buy on Amazon

http://www.amazon.co..._pr_product_top

Edited by ciardha, 11 June 2011 - 03:44 AM.

[Miss Soupy]

I would love to see those psychological reports. Fans of Rowling will call her the greatest fantasy writer since Tolkien. They are of course, and no insult intended, delusional. Tolkien was a master at his writing craft. The fact that Rowling encourages and endorses the 'bad boy/bully/jerk character' to always get the girl, is just a terrible and horrible message to send. And young girl readers eat it up.

I think that is a bit overboard about Ron. He is no more of a bad boy than Harry at disobeying the rules. He does say insensitive things, but at the same time it isn't because he enjoys the pain of others. Rather, his own insecurities causes him to speak without thinking. Ron simply doesn't feel proud of his own life in comparison to the greatness that is Harry. We know he shouldn't feel insecure or jealous, but how many times do we, as imperfect people, feel exactly what we shouldn't? This is Ron's cross to bear. If he did these things for the pure purpose of making people hurt, if he didn't regret the things he said, I would agree with you. But this isn't the case, at all. The character that better portrays what you are calling the bully/bad boy/jerk is always shown as Draco.

Ron's culmination of growth was when he destroyed the locket. He was, invariably, destroying that jealous voice deep down. From then on, from what I recall, he was steadfast and supportive for Hermione and therefore no reason why his relationship with her would be unhealthy and a 'horrible message to send'.

[Sakura Blossoms]

I think that is a bit overboard about Ron. He is no more of a bad boy than Harry at disobeying the rules. He does say insensitive things, but at the same time it isn't because he enjoys the pain of others. Rather, his own insecurities causes him to speak without thinking. Ron simply doesn't feel proud of his own life in comparison to the greatness that is Harry. We know he shouldn't feel insecure or jealous, but how many times do we, as imperfect people, feel exactly what we shouldn't? This is Ron's cross to bear. If he did these things for the pure purpose of making people hurt, if he didn't regret the things he said, I would agree with you. But this isn't the case, at all. The character that better portrays what you are calling the bully/bad boy/jerk is always shown as Draco.

Ron's culmination of growth was when he destroyed the locket. He was, invariably, destroying that jealous voice deep down. From then on, from what I recall, he was steadfast and supportive for Hermione and therefore no reason why his relationship with her would be unhealthy and a 'horrible message to send'.

I'm wasn't calling 'Ron' a bully/bad boy/jerk. I was quoting from ciardha's post where she was talking about James and Sirus being jerks towards Snape, yet Lilly still ending up with the 'bad boy' character.

You just HAD to make this thread just when I posted my own contribution to the Hinata Popularity thread.

Hehe, yeah

Found one online already and it has a nice long bibliography of other articles:


http://www.sosyalara...n_krunoslav.pdf

and here's another, more critical of Rowling's writing

http://www.gregoryde...rry_Potter.html

Hey, there's even a book, you can buy on Amazon

http://www.amazon.co..._pr_product_top

Thanks for the links ^^

[Saku-chan]

I agree with Soupy about Ron. Hermione dated Krum and such before, so I don't see why Ron shouldn't have been able to mess around with Lavender. I mean at least he got to see that a relationship like that wasn't what he wanted.

As for the links Ciardha posted, holy crap. This is the most intellectual thing that I've ever read regarding Harry Potter. XD

I do want to weigh in on a couple of things from them though.

Get ready for a wall of text. XD

About the International Social Research Article:

I respect everyone's ability to weigh in on any art however they like because that's what it's for. Whatever a piece means to you is what it means. Rowling wrote a pretty believable portrayal of a CURRENT fictional universe. Yes, there's marginalization for females in the book, but there is in real life, too. Hermione, Luna, Professor McGonagall, the Gryffindor Quidditch girls, Bellatrix, and others defy gender stereotypes in spite of marginalization.

Had JK Rowling not been a woman, I think the book would have unintentionally become even more marginalized. (I don't agree that McGonagall isn't wise. She is plenty wise in my opinion and shows a lot of foresight about Umbridge and the progression of events. She wouldn't be the Deputy Headmistress without being wise imho.)

For me, the books are a great story. Of course I wouldn't object to more BAMF women, but the series takes place within the last 20 years where, I'm sorry, but there is not rampant gender equality no matter how bad I'd like there to be.

Feminists can find faults in the representation of females all they want, but I find this article to be a bit offensive. They call crying or sobbing feminine and saying that it is bad that Hermione was associated with these adjectives. Is a girl NOT allowed to genuinely do those things? Everyone should be allowed to cry when they want, play sports when they want, strive to succeed in any field the want, etc.

As for the fact that the main character was male and that Dumbledore and Voldemort were males, yeah that's pretty dominated, but should we marginalize successful and powerful men because they aren't women? I think that there is enough room for there to be women in that category as well as enough room for men to be able to take up traditionally "female" positions. Just because there weren't main roles in this series doesn't mean that they can never be.

Of course I recognize that most of this feminist objection is happening because these are children's books. The little boys and girls who read this without knowing about the progression towards gender equality may feel obligated to fulfill traditional roles when they don't want to.

In any case, if people want to argue about the book from this perspective, I will gladly argue back. I am glad that this topic came up for scrutiny, though. It shows that we're getting somewhere with people caring about gender equality.

About the Deconstructing Harry Potter article:

I personally like the accessibility of Rowling's writing. Not every book has to be a Jane Eyre, House of Spirits, or Vanity Fair. Back in the day, Jane Austen was decried as a "Pedestrian Author." Even Shakespeare can't dodge crit about some free verse stuff that's pretty vulgar. No one FORCED you to read the book. I bet in a century's time or more, this will be considered a classic.

As for Pairings, I'm kind of Asexual about Harry Potter. I don't like how either of the two main pairings came about. There could have been a lot more build up, but perhaps it was not included because Rowling felt that the adventure-liking fanbase would object. I don't know her motives, but it's her story. She can write it however she likes.

As far as Snape goes, what we've seen of James as a Bully was certainy shocking, but we have NO idea of many other things that the Marauder's or Snape had done. To join the Death Eaters, you have to at least agree with the surface philosophy that some people are inherently better than others and therefore deserve to treat 'lower' people however they want. James and Sirius were not right to bully, but I doubt Snape is Innocent.

[Cloud]

Fans of Rowling will call her the greatest fantasy writer since Tolkien.

BLASPHEMY!

[Miss Soupy]

I'm wasn't calling 'Ron' a bully/bad boy/jerk. I was quoting from ciardha's post where she was talking about James and Sirus being jerks towards Snape, yet Lilly still ending up with the 'bad boy' character.

I see. Though you did say basically the same thing in the other thread about Hermione ending up with Ron even though he was insulting, verbally abusive, etc. And then went on to say it disgusted you Rowling would send such a terrible message to young women...

Seems you fit this pairing in the same category, though perhaps you don't consider Ron a bully the same way Sirius and James were. You described all these pairings as being harmful to girls, at any case.

As far as James goes, the books did say Lily got with him only after he had matured. Who's to say he didn't regret what he did to Snape but was unable to change it because of his death? Snape, on the other hand, joined the Death Eaters. He was cruel to Lily, and only later regretted it after it was too late. It's not like these boys were meant to look perfect in their high school years.

Don't get me wrong, I love Snape's character. His devotion to Lily after her death is extremely romantic and touching. But it's also extremely sad because he himself realized the irreparable mistakes he made that led to his inability to be with her. He turned his back on the one person who understood him, and that cost him a happy life with that girl.

I don't think Rowling is on the level of Tolkien; that would just be silly to think so. I don't think, however, that Rowling depicted something inaccurate or unhealthy as far as romance or boys/girls attitudes go. It is, after all, largely about growing up.

[Akashi]

@Miss Soupy lol, your Ulqui/Hime set reminded me of Lily/Snape. XD

[Muffins?]

So ummm....Harry/Luna? Anyone else, anyone?

[Grace]

So ummm....Harry/Luna? Anyone else, anyone?

*raises hand* It's cute =3

So um...what're some crackships y'all like? 'Cause my Harry Potter OTP is a crackship that gets me plenty of WTF reactions.

Oh! And just for fun, how long ago did most of you discover HP? For me, I read the first book right after it was released here in the US in 1998--I was 8 yrs old, in second grade, and my school librarian recommended it to me =]

Edited by Kushina, 11 June 2011 - 09:18 PM.

[Sakura Blossoms]

*raises hand* It's cute =3

So um...what're some crackships y'all like? 'Cause my Harry Potter OTP is a crackship that gets me plenty of WTF reactions.

Oh! And just for fun, how long ago did most of you discover HP? For me, I read the first book right after it was released here in the US in 1998--I was 8 yrs old, in second grade, and my school librarian recommended it to me =]

I shipped Draco/Hermoine pretty hard for a while back there :3
So much 'I hate you/but I really love you' pent-up smexual tension between those two ;3

I basically ignored Harry Potter and the general crazy hype that surrounded it until the 4th book came out. Read all 4 books, read the 5th when it came out, and then stopped there. Couldn't really stomach anymore after that >.>

[Grace]

I shipped Draco/Hermoine pretty hard for a while back there :3
So much 'I hate you/but I really love you' pent-up smexual tension between those two ;3

I basically ignored Harry Potter and the general crazy hype that surrounded it until the 4th book came out. Read all 4 books, read the 5th when it came out, and then stopped there. Couldn't really stomach anymore after that >.>

Aaah, Dramione. I never could get myself into it, though I do find Draco/Ginny kind of sweet, even if only in fanon. My crackship love has been and always will be Snape/Hermione. I was introduced to it around the time of the sixth book, and it grew on me through the magic of fanfiction XD

I was in love with the series until the fourth book, when it started to slow down for me. Every time a new book came out, I'd get back into the hype for a few weeks, then forget about it again 'til the next one. I still love the series--huge factor being that I kinda grew up with the series, from 8 to 17--but... *shrug* It's mostly the nostalgic value.

[Sakura Blossoms]

Aaah, Dramione. I never could get myself into it, though I do find Draco/Ginny kind of sweet, even if only in fanon. My crackship love has been and always will be Snape/Hermione. I was introduced to it around the time of the sixth book, and it grew on me through the magic of fanfiction XD

For me Snape/Hermoine just kind of bothers me in the same way that Sakura/Kakashi does ^^;
But everyone is entitled to their ship, so it's cool :3

[Grace]

For me Snape/Hermoine just kind of bothers me in the same way that Sakura/Kakashi does ^^;
But everyone is entitled to their ship, so it's cool :3

>>;;
How awkward--my first pairing for the Narutoverse was Kakashi/Sakura, and I shipped it for about two years before "discovering" NaruSaku XD
In any case, I agree: to each their own; for crack or fanon ships at least. I mean, the same goes for people that choose to like the canon couples, but those ships can at least be discussed without getting too close to discussing anyone's tastes, I think.

[Miss Soupy]

@Miss Soupy lol, your Ulqui/Hime set reminded me of Lily/Snape. XD

I can see what you mean o.o


Oh I love KakaSaku XD Though, I've never read Snape/Hermione. I used to like Twins/Hermione a lot, since the twins were so awesome. Also would read time-turner fics about Hermione meeting the marauders :3 Crack pairings are a lot of fun~