Miss Soupy

Despair, you say?

Sorry but I can't really tell what the point of all that is. H&E always goes through cycles of activity. The ending was obviously a big thing to talk about here, and now people are calming down from that. That happens anytime something big in Naruto has happened. Some people stay, some people leave, new people join, etc. etc.

Sounds like a premature announcement of the death of a fandom...that probably isn't anywhere near dying. Currently there just is a lack of material to talk about until the next Naruto projects begin.

Psycho Pass, it's called? Sounds interesting. I'll have to check it out sometime.

I will now administer justice.

There was no way NH was planned since the beginning. No way. Everything about part 1 was favorable to NS as a pairing.

Part 2 around the Pain Arc is my guess; that's when Kishi started altering some of the major themes and things stopped making a lot of sense as powerlevels got out of control. I think that's when Naruto as a character changed into this Destined relation of the ninja god rather than the hardworking orphan. Maybe that's why he had to end up with perfect waifu Hinata-hime-sama.

Destinee.

How about that Kishimoto needed to kill off Neji in order to make NH happen? Rather than developing his (supposed) real pairing, he spent all his time on the red-herring 

A lot can really be said about how the characters were turned into something else just for the sake of NH/SS to happen. So many characters were ruined for two pairings to produce offspring to continue the series.

Kishimoto's version of Sasuke...I can't see him actually getting much of a degrade in powers or really have to pay anything back for his redemption. It didn't seem like Kishi was interested in the redemption part of Sasuke's story, almost like we were simply supposed to accept from one action that Sasuke was sorry and wouldn't do it again. Really? The only time Sasuke did something for someone else was saving Naruto at the beginning of the manga. Every other action since then was a selfish one, and Kishi was fine leaving Sasuke just as selfish. He chose to wander, to be absent.

If there's anything I'd like to see for Sasuke, it'd be him actually learning how to live for others rather than forever living only for himself. I also think it would be interesting to see him lose his eye powers and have to work his butt off making a difference in the world without his hand-given god powers. He could become a disciple of hard work himself and maybe actually learn some humility. Basically, make it believable that Sasuke actually did change. After all, the entire story revolved around the fact that he needed to for Naruto to move on with his life as well. Kishi failed to show us that and instead expected us to just accept that it happened off screen somehow.

Since there was once a part of Sasuke that was willing to die for someone else (Naruto), somehow building off of that I think would help with his character.

I feel like Rod isn't telling the whole story. Something fishy about that guy

 

Really, that soon? I really don't know, if he had really decided to go with NH at the time of the nocfession, he would've had more than enough time to do some development between the two, but all they got was basically a hand-hold. I'm talking about mutual interactions here, not Hinata's Naruto-kunning with no sense or purpose. And some pretty big NS-teases came after that so it's so hard to believe.

He had more than enough time to develop NH, that's true. I mean, Kishi's been saying he's known 'for a long time' or 'since the beginning' he planned NH. He always had time to develop them, he just didn't. I'm just not sure I buy he planned NH from the beginning...so when looking at when things fell apart (to me), the false confession stands out as something very odd to add at that point. Right after that Sakura started thinking about Sasuke again - revamping her pining towards him. Plus Neji died for NH XD Possibly Kishi thought, since the movie was in works, that would suffice for NH development.

Just seems like things started going wonky with the characters around that time and onward. Nothing really new happened for NS, as in, after Sai commented that Naruto loved her, that point seemed to have been dropped. Yes, NS continued to be teased, but by the end I was hoping for something more substantial. It just never happened.

But yeah, that's just my own speculation. It's hard to make sense of Kishi's thought process when he's saying a bunch of different things, some of which seem extremely rude towards his own fans.

@shishui

Your arguments seem to be done in favor of the author and the assumption that Kishi would/wouldn't write a certain thing. Yet for most people, their trust in Kishi is non-existent, since they feel he failed as a writer. Saying 'Kishi wouldn't write Sakura just a housewife' led to the assumption for you that she must not be just a housewife. The problem is that...it's the final chapter. It's Kishi's chance to send a message about how the main team ended up. The message he sent was largely that ninja weren't needed anymore. Since this thread is about Hinata vs Sakura...Sakura is specifically brought up as a disappointment. I don't think that most people reading Naruto believed that the ending would mean the extinction of ninja. Thus...it's a disappointment to see the ninjas we followed...not being ninjas anymore.

Sakura and Hinata were both pairing fodder, given what we actually saw of their future. Kishi certainly had every opportunity to show Sasuke attentive to his daughter, his wife, but he never showed us that. Believing he is a family man is therefore an assumption. Kishi, as the writer, held the responsibility to show us - not to leave it up for a (hopefully) positive assumption by readers. You can debate whether or not Sakura was still a ninja in the ending - and that's entirely the problem. We don't know. All we know is there isn't much for ninja to do, and Kishi chose for her final scene to be dusting. I don't blame people for being disappointed about that. There isn't anything inspiring about that final scene with her.

 

Then again, that was then. The times, they are a changing.

 

While I can't imagine the gals of "One Piece" or "Bleach" all settling down to raise kids and set aside their abilities, there is something I was hoping to discuss in this thread. That is the change from tsundere characters being the leading ladies of shonen series--like Sakura--to moe characters like Hinata taking that role. This can be seen in series like "Blue Exorcist," where the tsundere character is a minor secondary character and the main gal is moe. Of course, these days, one of each like they had back in the day doesn't seem to be enough, because you also seem to need a harem in shonen--a prepubescent girl, an older woman, etc.

 

I believe Sakura was pushed aside because her character type has fallen out of fashion. Since she was less popular, there was no need to handle her character well...not that any of them really were. (Why show Kurenai if you aren't even going to color her eyes correctly?!) Still, I fully believe the rising popularity of moe characters is a major factor in why things turned out the way they did.

Not gonna argue that moe girls aren't popular. But I'm not sure the examples you are using fit. Hinata type of moe girl is one that is basically absent and not useful when it comes to the plot. You give the example of Shiemi from Blue Exorcist as a Hinata type of girl. Except, Shiemi is not hidden in the background with only 'cute' to her name. She actively supports the hero. I'd compare Shiemi to Orihime from bleach, both bubbly types. I don't find either girl like Hinata as far as their importance in the manga nor their nature.

I'd also add the Rukia is by far the most popular female in bleach, yet she isn't a moe type either. I think Sakura became less popular not because she is tsundere, but because Kishi was all over the place with handling her in the final stretch of the manga. It's not a shifting in popularity type, its just bad portrayal of a character. He dropped her development after the Pain Arc to make her look bad. Or that's what it looks like to me.

He's grasping for straws it seems like. You don't develop your 'red-herring' to the point the actual intended pairing has nothing to stand on in comparison XD

I kind of always expected Naruto to end via some form of talk-no-jutsu. It's sorta his thing, and it's a shounen. But even more than that, the point should've been that Naruto was working his butt off to prove that there were people willing to fight hard till the end to help build a better world.  Yeah he would've had a big speech, but his actions prior to that should've just been fuel for the fire. The biggest problem I had with this final arc was the fact that Naruto didn't have to do anything but be a DBZ level fighter. All of the other countries were already working together. Naruto didn't have to do any talk-no-jutsu. He didn't have to perform any inspiring moves or say any words to change things.

So what did Naruto actually accomplish besides gaining god powers? Since he was revealed to be the Chosen One, that's hardly a shock. None of the final villains were given much thought. Obviously someone wanting to remove free-will from an entire population is wrong. Obviously it solves nothing. Kishi tried to make it sound deeper than it was. A little false hype to make Naruto's win seem bigger. But at the end of the day, the final villain was an alien that didn't make you feel anything. Naruto brushed over everything Obito did simply because, here it comes, he wanted to be Hokage. Didn't Naruto learn anything about what it means to be Hokage?

Kishi was all over the place. I don't think he even knew what themes he wanted Naruto to support. I'll never understand why he changed from hard-working to Chosen One. Ugh. Changing that was a big deal for me. It's what started Naruto down the path of a boring Gary Stu.

Doesn't that kind of contradict the other interview? Either he's saying a bunch of different things about which pairings came first, or this interview isn't real.

Since Hinata is moe perfect waifu material, anyone can easily project their fantasies onto her XD She doesn't have much personality or depth to begin with so it makes her easier to fantasize about    That's what her character amounted to. Isn't it inspiring?

 

What people fail to realize is that subconscious racism is very alive and it affects the deaths of black men in today's society. It is the reason why ever since 2006, at least 2 black bodies are found dead because of police brutality.  

 

You have to realize that it's the way people perceive black people- is why they are treated unfairly in America's justice system. 

 

Racism can and does exist for any race. Bad perceptions of people go beyond the color of your skin, and there can be unfair treatment for many many reasons. It's not just a one-way street where only one race can be affected by it.

And there is nothing racist about considering the fact that there were only three black people on the panel. Why? Because, like I said in my original post, black people do not share the same experiences as white people. 

Either you want the races to receive equal treatment or you don't. As far as I know, the point of the panel is to look at the facts and not decide based on bias. As long as the panel met those qualifications, regardless of the races involved, they were  doing what they were supposed to. Wanting a specific race involved over another is singling out race. That isn't equality.

And our history in America is what made it like that. The fact that people continue to deny history as a reason why things are the way it is today is what causes history to repeat itself. Hence, Trayvon Martin last year, and Mike Brown this year. 

Are people denying history, or choosing not to live in the past?

The honest fact that people will try to turn away from the racism issue no matter how hard they try, or no matter how much evidence is there is what makes America so toxic for people of color. I mean for Christ's sake we call migrant hispanics "illegal aliens". Literally inferring that they're not even human.   

I don't think you understand what the term alien means. Alien means: a resident born in or belonging to another country who has not acquired citizenship by naturalization.
 

 

No matter how much you try to see the situation from both sides (which there's no reason to anyway because he shot at Mike Brown 12 times which is excessive force no matter how much you look at it), you need to understand that denying a race issue is what causes these situations to continue happening. It's there. Deal with it, so now we can start addressing it. 

If you have no reason to see the view from another side, I'm not sure why you are even bothering to argue. Basically you're saying: the problem is we aren't viewing each other correctly. It's a problem. But don't ask me to be fair, because I've decided they're wrong!

People who decide it's a race issue before the facts are even released are no better. It doesn't matter what color you are - if you're making a quick judgment because of skin color, you are promoting racism.

 

He is not yet mature enough, and he is certainly lack in the diplomatic skills and patience necessary to get the job done. But I would have welcomed an arc where Kakashi was the Hokage while Naruto was being groomed for it.

I'd be ok with an arc like that, because at least it'd serve a purpose. But I'd argue that Naruto being able to talk down Pain shows that he did have the maturity and ability to lead. Sure, he doesn't know all of the politics involved, but that isn't a big deal to me since its shounen and doesn't have to be completely realistic (in fact, it shouldn't be).

Naruto was always meant to become Hokage according to the story - where that becomes more interesting is if Naruto achieved that status in a remarkable/legendary way. He could have been the youngest Hokage for the Leaf, for example. Would have had a better story than him achieving god level, then waiting a long time before Kakashi steps down.

Nothing remarkable about that story.