Hello been a member for a while now. Took a break and coming back. Can I change my name to Sunora pls?

Sorry for the delay, but you login/display name have been changed to Sunora.

Hello been a member for a while now. Took a break and coming back. Can I change my name to Sunora pls?

 Sorry for the delay, I will take care of it when I get home today.

To be frank, Sakura’s character is fine as it is. It was never a problem. It is when there is biased double standards comparing her to Hinata is my issue with the whole thing. Would I like to see Sakura in action more? Sure but I never expected too much out of it and what we got is fine.

If I had an issue with her, it's on her use. Kishimoto seemed to really struggle finding ways to keep her involved in the plot. Naruto and Sasuke were Part of Team 7, but the core conflict of Part 2 wasn't about Team 7, it was about Naruto and Sasuke and Team 7 one aspect of their lives. I  She cared about them too, but she wasn't part of the metaphysical aspect of their conflict. Kakashi's experience and mentor-type status as well as Obito being one of the final villains kept Kakashi involved, but she really didn't have anything like that either. From a strategic standpoint, having her as a medic was a good idea because in their like a work having medical assistance on site would be invaluable, but it didn't integrate well into a series were combat prowess is often a currency to relevance, especially in Part 2 where be able to fling the biggest jutsu became more and more important. It also didn't help that rather than focused missions that might has multiple fights scattered over the course a mission (like the wave arc), it became more like DBZ in nature.

As far as Kakashi training her, I can't recall what I may have through in the past, but now its far more a writing issue than a Kakashi issue. You can make an argument that he sucked, but its clear that Kishimoto was not meaning to convey or even imply it as there is nothing from Sakura that suggest she saw it the way many fans did and as Bail said, its clear off screen training occurred and Kishimoto just never really followed up on it. 

It also clear, that by this point he had decided on them having them having individual mentors. People have criticized Kakashi for his treatment of Naruto, but I think Kishimoto just wanted him get set up Jiriaya. The point wasn't supposed to be Kakashi sucks, it was how do I get him to meet Jiriaya. In the process he makes a classic show don't tell mistake. I think in universe Ebisu is supposed to be a legitimately good instructor who is a poor fit for Naruto, but his treatment as a joke character while on screen undercuts this and got Kakashi accused of blowing Naruto off. We only know Ebisu is good because the series says so, the only two people who work with him on screen chafe under him. I've also come to appreciate why Kakashi would focus on Sasuke. He was facing a murderous sociopath who had tried to kill an incapacitated opponent. As awful as Neji was to Hinata, Gaara was worse and Sasuke possessed no method of getting past his shield without Chidori. From Kakashi's POV, what move did Sasuke (at the time) possess that would allow him to even damage Gaara? He didn't have Lee's speed. Without Chidori, Sasuke really didn't have the skill set to take out someone as tanky as Gaara was. I think he should have done more to make sure Naruto was more prepped, but Sakura had no upcoming matches and I think it works both ways. If she really wanted additional training during that time period, she could asked for it. 

Its more "I'll follow Jiraiya's wishes and try to find the answer." While also reminding Nagato that Jiraiya believed in him, renewing his hope in peace, and placing his trust in Naruto. I don't have a problem with Pein's talk no jutsu. Since finding the answer to world peace or ending the cycle of hatred is difficult.

 

But, I don't think the excuse works in the final battle with Sasuke. Since that was suppose to be a clash of plans that were made from the paths they walked to reach that point. Sasuke gave his stupid Shadow-Hokage terrorize the world straight plan while Naruto had no plan, despite the fact the it was the last battle before the end. Which then led to the problems of Boruto as Naruto's failure to have a plan or even an idea meant the next generation has to repeat the same conflict.

This was one reason I’ve been critical of the NaruSasu conflict as a micro version of the world ninja system. It just doesn’t work. Naruto’s lack of plan v. Sasuke’s nonsensical one. As a method of formally burying the Senju-Uchiha (especially since most of them were dead and much of what drove Sasuke at a fundamental level originated from that) it could work with the aspirational idea of taking lessons learned to apply on a larger scale. The struggle to do so would have been an obvious plot line for a sequel that wouldn’t undermine his victory  or goals. 

I hate to bring in Star Wars, but a couple of the things people have said remind me it.

I definitely agree that Part 1 needed an additional filler arc that built on the Land of Waves Arc. For anyone familiar with the Red Letter Media Mr. Plinkett reviews of the prequels, one of his criticisms of them was that they didn’t really show any of the Obi-Wan/Anakin adventures and, at least one screen, didn’t act that way very often. the audience was mostly told about them. The NaruSasu friendship has the same issue. The spend most the series at odds and really only had the Land of Waves. There is some in the Chunnin Exams, but that arc does so many things you don’t get a ton of focus. A arc that spent most of that time would have helped the friendship feel the same way Naruto talked about it

Regarding what phantom said with respect to Naruto, i agree to an extent. I’m a big believer in the idea that the manga was supposed to end much sooner than it did. Naruto’s character stopped developing after Pain because there was nowhere else for it to go other than Sasuke. I think its one reason everything after it is so bad. Naruto had largely achieved his goals. He wasn’t Hokage, but he could have been named it right then and no one would have complained. Well, it did have one place it could go, but Kishimoto wasn’t willing to prod the weaknesses of Naruto’s worldview, so he stalled out and because a rudderless character. 

I actually think the Kage was terrible for the series in that the NaruSasu conflict worked on a micro level but as a solution for al the world’s problems, it doesn’t. If world peace were that simple, we’d have it. For example, the Earth and Water villages had no ties to the main plot and largely did nothing of substance. Brining in Sand and Cloud was fine as Naruto had direct connections with Gaara and Bee. But adding them cut off story threads that could have been used in the sequel without adding anything,

As far as the Uchiha are concerned, I actually have come to like the Senju-Uchiha conflict in that I can understand why people did what they did. It was actually a good way to demonstrate the system’s problems. It could have been really effective had it not been confined to a lore dump by resurrected Kage’s at the end of the series.  Well that, and the “love too much” fiasco. That was so bad and just a last ditch effort to resurrect the Uchiha’s negative potrayal throughout the series  If the conflict had been presented much earlier and in different way it could have worked.

All the "special" Uchiha Jutsu with the Sharingan are if you ask me, Nate! And I mostly refer to Izanagi, Izanami, and Kotoamatsukami because of how stupid busted they are, even if the eye loses all sight.

The ones that came out after Amaterasu were OP (especially Susanoo). Izanagi had the potential to be truly OP because Obito’s house of eyes rendered the cost inconsequential, but it didn’t see much use after the Danzo fight. However, OP did not make them dumb in the the way I’m talking about it. 

Izanami was stupid in the literal sense. It was stupid in concept and stupid in use. It’s only use was as a plot device to break Kabuto’s Edo Tensei and serve as vehicle for his redemption. It’s hyper specific design meant it had no value  or purpose other than this one thing. As an aside, Konoha and Naruto are just not going to ask or think about where he got his “supplies” to make all the Edo Tensei ninja. They just let him run a orphanage as if he hadn’t been a mass murderer who supplied Obito with lots of soldiers and resurrected Madura. No risk there, I’m sure. I mean, if a kid or two goes missing who is going to notice? Crap like this is why the pairing results are, for me, small potatoes. 

Izanami presented the idea that accepting ones fate as a positive when there is no reason it had to be or how ultimately this would solve the problem Izanagi presented once the user was free from it. Hell, given it use as a counter to Izanagi how do you even not when to execute it, since the Sasuke and Konon the Barbarian fights really make it seem like its use can only be detected after the fact. A little late then, I’d imagine. Moreover, against anyone but someone like Danzo (i.e. someone who has multiple eyes on hand or an immediate way to obtain more) will usually mean your opponent typically has very limited uses before they are totally blind (not to mention that suddenly losing an eye would itself be hard to deal with considering how vision and depth perception work).

It still makes limited sense as to why this was chosen as the method to counter Izanagi and how one would develop given its cost.  It’s so clunky and bizarre in the way its supposed to counter Izanagi, that it borderline useless and probably less effective than what Sasuke did when fighting Danzo (forcing him to burn through most of the eyes).

It was just a bad plot device and felt like it was put in the series because well, we have Izanagi, so I guess we gotta have Izanami too. 

Which is still creepy AF even with Kabuto finding himself again thanks to Itachi's Genjutsu

Izanami was the stupidest jutsu in the series. 

Those are fake subs, but it might as well be true considering Naruto handed out no punishments for Orochimaru and allowed him to continue working as he pleased.

 

It's a thing the fandom likes to ignore since there is no legitimate explanation that can be made why Orochimaru shouldn't be in prison.

Or his former henchman running an orphanage. 

I best knew him as Ferdinand Von Aegir from Fire Emblem Three Houses. Rest in Peace

He was Maruki in P5 Royal. That’s where I knew him from.

Its important to remember that both Dragonball and Naruto have different...perceptions in the US and Japan due to how they were released.

 

For Naruto, part one was the only part shown on primetime so most opinions and views come from part one. For Dragonball, we saw Z first so when talking and thinking about Dragonball or what Dragonball is we are talking often about Dragonball z. The fact fans in the US saw these first or only saw these parts at all makes them raise them as more important than the other parts of the story.

 

The Japanese saw Part One and Two of Naruto and DragonBall then Z. They are regular shows and don't have this weird perception we have in the US.

 

Oh here is a bit of hearsay I heard recently. Dragonball Super actually did have problems attracting Japanese kids attention. Now James an others would say it because they made Goku goofy and Dragon Ball should be serious one-hundred percent of the time. Apparently, it had problem because of lack of teamwork and team battles. They don't like the fact that most of the cast is useless and just stands around. So, to fix that they started having Vegeta and Goku fight together and had the tournament of power be about a team. The reason Japanese kids care about that? They all watched My Hero Academy and similar shows. 

That’s interesting. I could see that being true. It definitely that a issue long running shounen series run into. As from the constants power-up, those power-ups usually are distributed evenly, which results in the supporting cast struggling to remain relevant. 

After I posted, I had wondered the same thing Kagomaru had: If there really was an experiment or if it was the way you intended to explain way or hide the conversion to NH. I think he’s right in that you would have been better served to be straight with everyone from the beginning. I can understand you worrying about people here being upset over the conversion, but if it was that was the case, this shield was going to eventually fall apart one way or another and people were going to find out.

If it is an experiment, i stand by what I said. It rubs me wrong but, ultimately, It won’t offend me. However, you should think about the NH fans you interacting with on Twitter and what they would think if they were to find a video about them that sounded like what you wrote about NS on the 19th. I just don’t see this ending well, especially if you value the relationships with the people you are talking too. Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you’re intending when you say experiment, but I’d hate for two fandoms to pissed at you over it this. 

As for the posts, I thought the first (19th) and second (25th) came across as insincere. The first because of what you were say on twitter the same day and the second because it was just a copy and paste job from twitter. The third (28th) one sounded sincere and I believe you meant what you said in that post. As I said in my last post, we haven’t interacted much, so I don’t know if it’ll mean much coming from me, but I’m neither mad nor offended and I’m about where phantom is. I bear you no ill will. At this point, all you can do is back up your words with actions that are consistent with what you said. 

I also meant what I said before, it does not matter to me if you are a NH fan now. If you like it and it makes you happy, you should enjoy it. You won’t be banned or booted from the forum just for being a NH fan. It’s not a prequisite to being a member. If it were I’d have to ban myself as I fall into the no-shipper category sushi mentioned and even when I still shipped, NS was only 3rd (I still have a big tendency to gravitate to crack ships). 

so, if Naruto didnt understand love then, how did he all of a sudden understand love when it came to Hinata?

In canon? When Sakura explained it to him in the Last. Was it believable? I don’t think so, but that’s because earlier writing established that he, at least intuitively, understood that. Having it explained to him in that way and then understanding it isn’t, by itself, terrible. It flops in the Last because of what came before it in the manga. It ignores established character development. I do not know if he if the Goku/Chich marriage scene was being referenced (or what inspired it), but given Kishi’s affinity for DB it wouldn’t shock me if that were the case.

But the tone of DB is different as is the tone of the Goku/ChiChi. In addition, as I said in my last post, there was development, particularly in Part 1, that indicated he does understand romantic love. The chapters that demonstrate this are the other reason why the scene is such an issue because if he doesn’t what exactly is he doing and what is driving them in early chapters? The rivalry comment by Sakura answers that question, but does so in a way that Naruto look pretty crappy. Honestly, no clean resolution between the Last and Part 1 exists. Naruto is a different character than Goku with a different story and those differences are why such a thing worked for one couple and not the other.

This is the one point where I feel a little sympathy for writers (IIRC Kishimoto didn’t; write but oversaw it). They had 90-120 minutes to deal with any lingering feelings for Sakura, established that he liked Hinata romantically, end with a wedding, and deal with the plot involving the villain. That is not a lot of time to do that, let alone do it well.

Kishimoto not doing the doing the first two things before the end really puts the writer in the Last behind the 8-ball. At least with SS, it left off an interaction that hinted Sasuke was starting to return those feelings.NH did not do that. If nothing else, its clear the writers didn’t think the manga effectively did any of that for NH because the scarf retcon and the this scene are not needed if it had. The movie format has its positives as a medium, but it can be extremely constraining in terms of story telling unless you do something like what Marvel did with the Inifinity Saga. Force all those plots threads into a two hours movie and you get something closer to Joss Wheadon’s Justice League. 

And yet we saw that Goku grew to understand love, flaws and all, in spite of trying to make him seem like he doesn't in Super now and then. And the fact The Last was so petty to do that to Naruto, to say he doesn't understand love when his loneliness always made him sympathetic to others...

I dunno, Super absolutely dips into this well at least once to make a joke at Goku’s expense. It was unfortunate too, as that joke was mildly funny and could have been made without completely clubbing him with the idiot ball. 

He didn’t, hence the genjutsu. Again should even Hinata fans be satisfied with that movie? That movie shows anything BUT Naruto loving Hinata as a person, he only felt obligated to return her feelings if he did not actually feel anything until that genjutsu. That is not romance. It was a cheap cop out to ATTEMPT to be romantic. I’m saying this objectively, that movie insults any romantic love Naruto was supposed to have with Hinata. I stand by my word, I am a fan of the story before I am a shipping fan and any agruments I make for Sakura applies to Hinata too, no exceptions. If Naruto and Hinata were actually in love, Hinata would show moments of genuine love like supporting Naruto in his goal of rescuing Sasuke or showing support of his dream to be Hokage, and Naruto would show appreciation for her kindness. Nothing of the sort happened. Hinata being shy is not an excuse, I’ve seen many shy characters in manga and anime do romantic gestures or support their love interests however small it may be. Hinata did nothing. I’ll be be perfectly honest if Hinata fans are so insistent Naruto is not a romance manga to denounce Naruto and Sakura’s relationship, here they are. Naruto is a narcissist that doesn’t know what love is so he was never in love with Hinata either. He was GUILT TRIPPED into marrying her. I hope they are happy with this, because I’m not

I don’t know that I see Naruto as a narcissist. I see him as a broken character whose writings is inconsistent. I think many of the negative connotations that the ending of the manga and Last give are not intentional, but the result of either not thinking certain things through or not caring about internal consistency. Ending Naruto is supposed to look like an idealist who is able to implement those ideas through the force of well, not a shallow and naive dipkitten who appears to gloss over mass murder because Naruto has to redeem everyone even the irredeemable.

He ends up looking like the latter because of the great lengths that the story goes through to protect him. He looks like a stupid and insensitive kitten because the story wants Hinata to be his first love. Realistically, that ship sailed in Part 1. I don’t think that any of that is intended. Other characters sure don’t act like they think those things.

This is why, now, I view him as broken. He’s not supposed to look like crappy person, and in official canon he is not. But poor writing leaves way to many “what the hell” moments that sure leave that impression. 

 
Well all of that was established LOOOONG before the ending. admittedly though Naruto marrying Sakura WOULDN'T have destroyed his character, now would it? I've already admitted that pairings were the least of my problems with the series now, but as I've said before "The Last was" a kittening pathetic excuse for an attempt to try gaslight fans that That Hinata was not only Naruto's one true love but also the person most important to him, period. THAT is what is so insulting. By the the time of the ending all of the writing problems were beyond apparent so you either stuck around to witness its ending or you stopped reading/watching it all together. And let's not forget while we shouldn't make a big deal for romantic pairings in comparison to the world building characters and plot, the entire premise of the series was desecrated for romantic pairngs

I have similar feelings, except for the first true love part. Whether she was his first true love or not doesn’t bother me. It’s what they had to do to get there that does. Aside from the scarf thing (which he I guess he forgot for the entirety of the manga’s duration), it’s now officially canon that he didn’t know what romantic love was and initially viewed it the same as him love for ramen.  That is real hard to reconcile with everything he does in Part 1. What was worse is that his pursuit of her in Part 1 gets rewritten as a component of her rivalry, which makes him look like an ass. Those moments of maturity in Chapter 3, the hospital scene, and the promise of a life time are completely recontextualized because of this.

Those seems need him to have at least a basic understanding of romantic love to work. It doesn’t even matter how the pairing shake out from that, rewriting his pursuit as just another point in his rivalry makes him look like an kitten and suggests he cared more about screwing Sasuke than he did about Sakura’s feelings, which is in direct contrast to how those scenes were written. How can he empathize with Sakura’s own desires and unrequited (at the time) love for Sasuke if he doesn’t understand what romantic love is?

The Last craps on some of his best moments as a character in order to make sure Hinata is the first love. They could have had him be mature like when he was twelve and had him move on. It had been two years with no movement from either Naruto or Sakura. People move on and feelings change. That’s all they had to do.

I share most of Nature’s feelings. I disliked almost everything post-pain and did so to such a degree that I just no longer cared. The pairings didn’t matter. I can’t say I ever hated Hinata. I just find her boring and I’m not a huge fan of her character type in Shounen settings. Her existence as a satellite character who largely marked time didn’t help matters. 

I have no dog in this fight. I think Ive interacted with you even less than kirabook. I don’t really care which team you bat for. If you’ve discovered you like NH and it makes you happy, that’s great. You should do what makes you happy. 

That said, I share some of sushi and kirabooks feelings, but for different reasons. You’ve been less than clear about this social experiment thing, to the point that your friends here thought you were just messing around and you had to come back and say you really meant it. When I say unclear, I meant it sounds like you were intending to tweek either one of the fandom or both them or try to pose as a fan.. That rubs me the wrong way no matter the intent or who it was aimed at. It crappy thing to do and that your using people as content fodder in a way that is guaranteed to breed mistrust.

If you were in fact infiltrating NH to run a social experience on them and they found out, what would they think? Of course, that kind of thing would set bridges on fire and they’d be rightfully pissed and be distrustful. 

Sushi, I believe Kira is talking about tweets on the 18th and 19th on the tweets and replies tab. TBH, between that and the posts here, it’s baffling. You post here about the members like close friends you know you won’t get to see again because life got into the way. On twitter, you treat them like crap, describe the fandom in ways that make it sound you view it’s a collection of pitiable morons, and occasionally sound like you can’t believe you were ever a fan. 

If that’s how you feel, that’s fine. However, its hard to reconcile these posts with your posts on twitter and I can’t blame people for being upset with you.

Originally, with the Cell arc from what I understand. He wanted it to end with Goku's death, and Gohan taking his place as Protector of Earth. When he was convinced to continued with the Buu arc, Gohan was the main character at the start, but actually focusing on Gohan as a character he realized that, Gohan is a scholar not a warrior. He played with Gohan alone for a very short time before bringing Goku back, but didn't put Goku back as the protagonist till around the fight with Super Buu.

 

So, it wasn't that he was forced to change back to Goku while not allowed to explore Gohan. Its that he tried Gohan as the hero didn't think it worked and eventually went back to Goku...with likely some suggestion from his editors.

I was aware that his editors had pushed him to continue with Z, but not with the original Dragon Ball and didn’t know why Super was made. 

I'm positive of one thing... Boruto's biggest flaw isn't actually the pairings, though excuse me when I say I do think they suck. Nah, it's the fact it's trying to, more or less, tell the same tired story Naruto went through while discarding all the characters we grew to like on Naruto's journey. Boruto and company, just by existing, are exponentially more powerful than Naruto, Sasuke, etc. all because, well, they're the "NEW" generation.

 

I'd like to compare it to the far more successful for the time but now seen as a meh series due to the series now having a "true" successor, Dragon Ball GT. At least with GT, when it decided to continue the Dragon Ball storyline, it knew exactly who everyone was rooting for and focused on. Goku, while definitely portrayed as a completely different character and also plot devised into de-aging and maybe given way too much focus, was still the main character. Compare that to how the story treats the title character of it's predecessor, Naruto. Dude literally takes all the L's imaginable despite being god of the ninjaverse. Oh and Kaguya, who was already a plot device used to defeat Madara, she was the weakest, uhh Ōtsutsuki?

 

Seriously, we went from ninja's with the ability to basically do magic... to kittening aliens. And the sales are going down? Who'd a thunk it lol

I generally dislike comparisons to Dragon Ball because its status allows it to get away with things that other series can't. I haven't read Borotu in sometime, but the parts I did convinced me of the same things. That it was just Naruto's journey rehashed with new characters (and the old ones hanging around).

The GT team likely knew that from the experience Toriyama had in Z. Toriyama initially tried to end it with Frieza, tried to tank it with an out of nowhere pairing in the Cell sage, tried to kill off Goku permanently to pass the torch, tried writing an arc initially centered around Gohan, and still brought Goku back. My understanding is that fan backlash was so bad that they felt compelled to bring Goku back in the Buu Saga. So, by GT they knew it was Goku or bust. 

That said, I agree generally. People can and have done successful next gen stuff, but its both hurt and helped by its predecessor. Yeah, you have a built in audience, but that audience is attached to the previous characters. That attachment hangs over your attempts to create new characters. Avatar was very much like that for me. I liked Aang and Co and since they weren't going to be in Korra very much my interest was already low (some unholy fights in the fandom I saw killed off even that mild interest). For me, I'd be watch muching the same show without the characters I liked. 

For Naruto it was the same bit with less likeable characters and worse writing, so I stopped. 

As for the powers: yeah, that problem lies at the heart of the Shounen story structure and Hero's Journey form it uses. Dragon Ball wisely abandoned any concept of objective power level by the time it got to Cell because it couldn't be done without being ridiculous. For the most part, power is now relative between characters. But shounen uses has the arc of hero getting ass kicked, getting powered up, and defeating villain. Do that enough times and it's hard not to lose control of ever increasing power levels. Kishimoto's early attempt to focus on strategy and tactics was a good idea that I like, but was abandoned (especially in Part 2) and he lost control of their powers. It a shame because the initial fights were interesting because those kinds of ideas just got lip service it started to move toward who could fire off the biggest jutsu. 

EDIT: I'm not sure it about them being the new generation per se. If Boruto was facings the same level off stuff 12 year Naruto did, you always have Naruto and Sasuke able to swoop in an take care of it by farting in the enemies general direction. Those two ended stupidly powerful by the end, which meant you needed threats and circumstances sufficient that they couldn't just waltz in and fix everything (or at least leaving the audience wondering why they aren't doing that).