217 replies to this topic

[Zatheko]

If Sasuke stabbing Karin is horrible, then don't make excuses for it.

 

If it isn't so horrible that it can be forgiven, then SasuSaku can also recover from that, are you ready to accept that? That was my point with the reply I made.

You don't have to be ready to accept Sasuke and Sakura being together just because you like SasuKarin.

 

Sakura and Karin are two different people. I can like Karin with Sasuke but at the same time hate Sakura with Sasuke and that is because Sakura is NOT Karin.

 

I dislike SasuSaku but I ship SasuKarin you don't have to hate both or like both. You can like one and hate the other, nothing hypocritical about that, it's opinions nothing more.

[tricksie]

I think people can ship different pairings for reasons other than the original media or character presentation.

 

For instance, I've not ever thought much of an SS pairing from what was in the manga, but then I read an awesome SS fanfic, where Sasuke was a little more involved and Naruto is a little more of a goof. The interaction between SS was pretty steamy. And I liked Sasuke's character more than I ever did in the manga. (He wasn't more likeable, there was just more reason/justification for his actions.) So in that environment, SS worked and worked well. After that I could see why people liked the idea of it. (Of course, I don't think it will be the end pairing. And I never have.)

 

Same thing with Zutara. Read a great fanfic and came to appreciate the characters more. Especially Zuko. Again, not ever going to be the main ship. But it's like a guilty pleasure I guess.

 

Anyway SK is different than these two examples because it doesn't take away from the main NS pairing, in fact it complements it in a way. The same way that Hinata pairing up with say Kiba would. It takes the competition away from the main pairing in the manga.

 

If Sasuke was ever going to turn good/redeemable, Karin would be the most likely ship. 

[alexander]

I used to like it to an extent because as the story progressed, Sasuke started to show some genuine care for Karin, even as going as far as to risk himself to save her from the amaterasu flames. I actually found that pretty amazing, because for the first time Sasuke started to care for someone other then himself. Yeah, he helped his team back in the day, but I aways got the impression that he simply did it because of an sense of duty, rather then genuine care. And when I was finally about to like him as an character... BANG! Kishimoto totally pulls an 180º on him and make him an psychotic douch that betrays and kills his own conmarades out of convenience. And the worst of all, is that after all this nonsense, Kishimoto makes Karin return to her brainless fangirl self completely ignoring all the horrible things done to her. To me this is an insulting development.

[Phantom_999]

SasuXKarin. Hmm. Well I won't deny that from what I've seen It is plausible and definitely could be done. My only problem? That I hold the exact standards of it as SS so as to not make a contradictions of my beliefs and look like a hypocrite. While Sasuke does seem to treat Karin more decently than he does with other females, the fact remains that he tried to kill her, and regardless of his apology, we must remember that that we consider SS to not work out because Sasuke tried to kill Sakura too, and that would not lead to a healthy relationship. Therefore I hold SK with the same notion. Sasuke tried to kill Karin and that would not reflect well, if they were together. Also remember that Karin is like how Sakura was in Part I. She is fan girling Sasuke and to date has not shown and any emotional maturity or mutual understanding of him as a person. If we use these arguments against SS, we must hold it to SK as well. But on the bright side If Sasuke wasn't such an ass to everyone I could see it though. They do have screen time together and Sasuke showed protectiveness of her before the the summit arc.   

Edited by Phantom_999, 16 July 2013 - 04:56 PM.

[catsi563]

Sclass you seem to have not read kanaes tumblr post. You're holding that one incident as over all OMG that's it proof. if that was the case then we might as well lump sasuke as forever tainted and Naruto should rasenshuriken him at earliest opportunity.

 

Kanae very clearly and succinctly explains why it is not the same, not the same relationship, not the same reactions.

 

and for both you and Alexander have drasticly mis read Karins character if you think shes the same as Sakura part 1. She couldn't be more different.

 

Also he did not revert her, as Kanae clearly shows she never changed and in the moment when he apologizes to her and she says allright it is sown that she was angry.

 

And Sasuke was worried.

 

this is one of the few moments where Sasuke got the Tsundere treatment.

 

I strongly urge you to re read Kanaes Tumblr post, and her Amazing Manifesto which is as good in its own way as heronites NaruSaku manifesto.

[Phantom_999]

Hello Catsi, good to see you again.  That aside I think you misread me. Did I say that SK is all over or that it is a ship sinking? I do not think I did. I was pointing out the facts of the pairing. Sasuke treated Karin decently showed concern over her pre Summit Arc. Plus they had more screen time than most couples in the manga. That's good. BUT, again I am saying that he did try to kill her and besides that fact that she not Sakura in terms of appearance, fan girling is fan girling. Let me address both points, and make it clear I am not against the pairing but am saying that it should be handled as logically as we handle NS. First, Sasuke tried to kill Karin, and we attribute that fact that we say He tried to kill Sakura. We say that Sasuke trying to kill Sakura is detrimental in the development in their relationship should it be pursued. So with this in mind We could say the same about Karin. Sasuke trying to kill her does not leave a good imprint of their bond does it? The only difference is she was acting like it was all water under the bridge, Sakura not so much, reason being that Karin still thinks that Sasuke is a cool looking, handsome and genius guy.  *Note* Sakura liked Sasuke for these reasons as well, but She became aware of his obsession for revenge and did not want him to leave, and at the same time she was aware of Naruto's hardships, and insecurities, and became more protective and caring towards him. Karin still adores Sasuke for his appearance but does she know him on the inside? Does she know of  the pain of losing his family? Does she know of the revenge that has taken hold in his being, or the heartbreak of knowing Itachi's true motives? Well maybe but she has yet to express them on panel if that is the case. Point is NS is like that. We like them because of that, so if we support NS based on those reasons, then I say we should see SK the same way. Otherwise, we might as well accept NH and SS for no reason other than the fact that they exist. Am I saying I don't like SK and am dogging on it? No. I am only reasoning it out the same way I would reason out NS because I like SK and would regard it like NS. talking out the pros and cons For instance I would say NS' main problem is that they try to keep each other from being hurt a little too much they may lie and keep the truth from each other because they do not want to see each other sad. Cute and Considerate, but It still does not change the problem and it is better to face the problem together. But that is my stance on it because Japanese culture dictates dignity and not troubling others with you problems, man or woman, but I believe that it helps to be more open about it. So I'm not saying I don't want SK, I'm am saying the facts that I hold to NS.    

Edited by Phantom_999, 16 July 2013 - 08:14 PM.

[sushi.]

I don't think we should ignore the murder attempts, but ask yourself "who hasn't Sasuke tried to kill?"

 

If you don't like SS/SK, you shouldn't want Sasuke to be friends with Naruto either. Remember who actually got a chidori through his chest.

 

If you want Naruto and Sasuke to be friends, but dislike SS/SK because of the murder attempts, that's hypocritical. Not saying everyone is like this, I've just seen so many. The only difference is that one bond is brotherly love and the others are romantic love.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Again, I never brought up murder attempt to put a hate on any pairings that get this. I have my reasons to dislike a pairing. Murder attempt is valid reason, but you got to be careful of shipping others that also received this treatment. Manga wise, you got to be careful. Fan fiction wise, you can create an alternative, so no real harm.

[alexander]

I don't think we should ignore the murder attempts, but ask yourself "who hasn't Sasuke tried to kill?"

 

If you don't like SS/SK, you shouldn't want Sasuke to be friends with Naruto either. Remember who actually got a chidori through his chest.

 

If you want Naruto and Sasuke to be friends, but dislike SS/SK because of the murder attempts, that's hypocritical. Not saying everyone is like this, I've just seen so many. The only difference is that one bond is brotherly love and the others are romantic love.

 

I don't think it's appropriate to call it hypocrisy (don't get me wrong, I don't like Sasuke one bit by now) but you gotta keep in mind that Naruto and Karin situations are different. Sasuke was fleeing, and Naruto came looking for trouble, while Karin was there following and helping him before being betrayed, and that's why Karin case is much more unaceptable.

[Phantom_999]

I don't think we should ignore the murder attempts, but ask yourself "who hasn't Sasuke tried to kill?"

 

If you don't like SS/SK, you shouldn't want Sasuke to be friends with Naruto either. Remember who actually got a chidori through his chest.

 

If you want Naruto and Sasuke to be friends, but dislike SS/SK because of the murder attempts, that's hypocritical. Not saying everyone is like this, I've just seen so many. The only difference is that one bond is brotherly love and the others are romantic love.

 

Point taken. but I was not aware that I said Karin should not like Sasuke or be with him because he tried to kill her I was pointing out the fact that he did. Everyone here said a major blow to the logic of SS was that Sasuke tried to kill Sakura. it is JUST as Hypocritical to disregard the situation with Karin. That is alI am saying.  Other wise we are saying this" Sasuke tried kill Sakura and Karin!!!! But that's okay!!!!! they have every right to love him still!!!!! See? Karin and Sakura were stuck in the same situation. He tried to kill them. You like and support SK without looking at the facts, you're not being any different to those Hardcore NH or SS fans that dog NS  because they try to "justify" their pairings for blatant  nonsensical reasons and do not try to see the other side of things. I too wonder why Naruto wants to redeem Sasuke too because Sasuke tried to kill him. that is the reason why many western fans who do not like Naruto's character blow crap at him. They think he is stupid, obsessive, or what have you. But I acknowledge that Naruto sees Sasuke as more than just a friend; He is kin. He understands him in a way beyond friendship, and his bonds are more precious to him than anything because He grew up with loneliness. I will accept the fact that Sakura And Karin still have attachments To Sasuke and that is their choice eventough he tried to kill them. I do not scorn them for it and would accept it. But it does not change this fact. He tried to kill them. For the last time. I did not say SK should not happen, or that I do not like SK, I am pointing out that if We reason that SS is  in a bad situation due to Sasuke trying to Kill Sakura, the same should be considered for Karin. But If regardless, If you like SK you're free to support them.  You're missing a point here. Pointing out the flaws or negatives in something does not mean that you are automatically agains it. It makes you appreciate the positives more. Not so?

Edited by Phantom_999, 16 July 2013 - 10:13 PM.

[catsi563]

that's never the reason I personaly have said that SS was doomed.

 

I have ALWAYS said that SS was doomed the instant Naruto complimented her forehead.

 

Sasuke was never involved with Sakura after that save as Kanae pointed out in the context of team 7. ALWAYS in the context of team 7.

 

Sasuke and Karin though have a more personal and interpersonal relationship show clearly throughout the manga.

 

Attributed to this relationship are many of the qualities that we attribute to the NaruSaku relationship in turn.

[TouKen4Life3g]

that's never the reason I personaly have said that SS was doomed.

 

I have ALWAYS said that SS was doomed the instant Naruto complimented her forehead.

 

Sasuke was never involved with Sakura after that save as Kanae pointed out in the context of team 7. ALWAYS in the context of team 7.

 

Sasuke and Karin though have a more personal and interpersonal relationship show clearly throughout the manga.

 

Attributed to this relationship are many of the qualities that we attribute to the NaruSaku relationship in turn.

I was shocked that Sasuke actually made Sakura's worries into a Team 7 moment because he combined it with Naruto. Compare to Gaara's fight, Naruto was only focusing on Sakura. Yes, she was in trouble, but Sasuke was there too you know, which he was going to take the bullet earlier. So talk about difference.

[Dkey]

I was shocked that Sasuke actually made Sakura's worries into a Team 7 moment because he combined it with Naruto. Compare to Gaara's fight, Naruto was only focusing on Sakura. Yes, she was in trouble, but Sasuke was there too you know, which he was going to take the bullet earlier. So talk about difference.

 

Yeah but even if he did think about Sasuke's safety during the Gaara fight we still knew about his feelings towards Sakura. As for Sasuke every gesture is over analyzed to see if it's a SS moment or not, because for SS it's all about winning Sasuke's affection.

[TouKen4Life3g]

 

Yeah but even if he did think about Sasuke's safety during the Gaara fight we still knew about his feelings towards Sakura. As for Sasuke every gesture is over analyzed to see if it's a SS moment or not, because for SS it's all about winning Sasuke's affection.

I know, but the point is to address between thinking about a person and thinking about a family. It doesn't help that there was an aftermath moment, which is Sakura learning that Naruto saved her. That moment wasn't needed if it's about Team 7 and only about them. So yeah, Kishi is clearly making NS. Trust me when I say this, when it's confirmed and when we look back (thank you Slextrem), we will realize how much work he put for NS if it's truly the intention he has in mind (which already looks that way anyway).

 

To go back in topic, SK moments are questionable to actual SK moment. Questionable would be something like the apology moment, because to be honest, while yes, it's rushed, I got to admit that it's still surprising (to me) that Sasuke actually apologize to her. Not only that but Sasuke didn't feel/look like he was in control, rather an "uh oh" expression. That's why that face he had when being touched by Karin was shocking to me. It's something you really don't see everyday. First the smile, now that. So it's only questionable, because well we don't know how far he will go in terms of apologizing. Will he apologize Sakura as an individual or as a Team 7? That's something people are afraid of. I have a question to ask here, but I will be right back. It's a long description.

[Phantom_999]

@Catsi- Right. But others have pointed out Sasuke trying to kill Sakura did affect their relationship if not completely change it. If you are one who said that argument, then you should attribute it to your arguments regarding other pairings. Or it will be used against you. For instance you said Sasuke's interactions with Sakura are based only on Team 7, and I would not disagree. But taking this into account it could be said Naruto is redeeming Sasuke for the sake of Team 7 itself too because he always thinks of Team 7 and being together as Team 7. He does have personal motives, that is true, but his main drive is to be together as a team again. Cause I see him thinking about Team 7 as much as he thinks about his bond With Sasuke or Sakura's happiness. On that point Sasuke could be attributing his relationship with Karin to the fact that she is a member Of Team Hebi/Taka. I can't say for certain , but I can at least acknowledge the possibility, and not have it deter my liking for the ship but use it to argue why I still think that the Pairing can work out, using the facts. That is what I'm trying to say. But I was generalizing for saying everyone, so I apologize for that. I meant to say , alot of members do see Sasuke's attempt to kill Sakura as a negative impact on the pairing even as a lot of members don't and thought the relationship was already down hill or hit rock bottom.  But anyway keeping your arguments to mind when you ship or debate is the point I'm trying to make.

Edited by Phantom_999, 17 July 2013 - 03:15 PM.

[sushi.]

 

I don't think it's appropriate to call it hypocrisy (don't get me wrong, I don't like Sasuke one bit by now) but you gotta keep in mind that Naruto and Karin situations are different. Sasuke was fleeing, and Naruto came looking for trouble, while Karin was there following and helping him before being betrayed, and that's why Karin case is much more unaceptable.

Yeah maybe the hypocrisy part was a bit too much.

 

I think Karin's case is worse too(because he flat out betrayed her), but not to the point where I won't like the pairing. Because of all the murder attempts Sasuke has committed, he has only shown remorse to Karin. It has also been shown that Karin was his turning point to the dark side.

 

The biggest differences is that Karin was a friend at time, and Naruto was an enemy. But Naruto was a friend the day before, so technically he was an enemy, but emotionally Sasuke should've still considered him a friend. But I get your point, that Naruto came looking for trouble and wasn't much of an innocent victim like Karin was.

Edited by sushi., 16 July 2013 - 10:22 PM.

[Phantom_999]

Actually no, Sushi it was a good point. It is hypocrisy to disregard the fact that Naruto was almost killed by Sasuke too. If you are saying Naruto and Sasuke's relationship is a flawless thing and do not point the negative aspects of it then it is being hypocritical or selfcontradictory. Anyways that is not the point of the discussion. 

 

I would like to say that I do enjoy the idea of SasuXKarin. I was never against the pairing but I was pointing out some negative impacts on the relationship. If I did not, why would I bother debating against SS then? I would be actualy supporting SS actually, if I did that. because the situation is pretty similar to SS, Karin is infatuated with Sasuke similar to Sakura but he show's no mutual attraction to either of them. Thing is, we are not shown if Karin has a deeper emotional understanding of Sasuke like Sakura has, so If I like this pairing I'd like to see more of their relationship. There have been some moments but they were one-sided like Sakura so it'd be proper to say I want to see the pairing developed more if anything.

Edited by Phantom_999, 18 July 2013 - 09:17 PM.

[@hellsbecca]

IDK if I like this couple, perhaps bc I think that Sasuke has to pay for his mistakes... however I guess it's great an idea of one Uchiha and one Uzumaki having children
More than that,I think if Sasuke would gonna has a happy ending with someone it is with Karin

[Hopestar]

I suppose that whenever Sasuke isn't behaving like a insane evil bastard then he's avoiding getting rape by Karin

[Darkness]

Sasuke and Karin is possible but a little unlikely. Sasuke did share some feelings for Karin at the Hachibi battle but that's it.

 

He tried to kill her later but whatever, who Sasuke didn't try to kill yet? He's become a huge mess and my best bet right now is that he is going to end alone like a wanderer or maybe dead.