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Where Did Naruto's Storytelling Decline?


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#21 Wyle23

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Posted 24 November 2017 - 02:49 AM

Right after the Pain arc.

#22 RulesofNature

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 10:25 PM

The Chunin exams is often where I point to. Not to say that this is where the writing went bad, but this is where the problems first took root. This is where the cast started to rapidly balloon out, taking the focus away from Team 7 in order to give side characters a time to shine (with appropriate flashbacks to flesh them out as well as the world). This is where Naruto is given not one but two opponents who act as dark reflections of himself and he befriends them through his words. This is where some serious jumps in power start to happen, as Naruto eventually learns to summon the Frog Boss to fight another Tailed Beast, Sasuke is given a deadly assassination technique, and Gaara can crush people to death in Sand. This is where Sasuke starts going down the path of darkness. And you can't really help but feel it's happening too soon for them to be at this stage like this should have been later on as Team 7 learned more techniques, completely more missions and held firmer bonds than they had at this stage.

 

As time went on, these elements became more problematic. It was like the series kept trying to repeat what it did to get popular in the first place, which caused the story to deteriorate over time. It reminds me a lot of Gundam SEED and it's sequel for this reason. The over-use of flashbacks became a running joke among fans, talk no jutsu became reviled as most adversaries ended up boiling down to "what if Naruto went bad?" as well as expecting the audience to just forget whatever atrocities they did afterwards, during the war they begin adding new characters and expanding the worldbuilding to pad out the time, and fights became more DBZ-like making early opponents like Zabuza look weak in retrospect.

 

The state Naruto ended in was something a long-time coming.


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#23 Azor Ahai

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 03:14 AM

For me, it was right after the Pain Arc, where the story started to loose its main focus. It changed the main antagonist of the story from someone with an interesting background, to just another Uchiha man child.

 

The war arc that followed soon after was just a nail in the coffin. The main character became overshadowed by a secondary character who I am now convinced was a self insert.

 

It is also at this moment where most of us should have seen it all coming. Kishimoto himself admitted he made Madara too powerful and thus had no idea on how to deal with him. At this moment we should all have been thinking that the writer was just pulling things out of his behind, and had lost all coherence.


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#24 rikakim94

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Posted 14 December 2017 - 07:40 PM

The Chunin exams is often where I point to. Not to say that this is where the writing went bad, but this is where the problems first took root. This is where the cast started to rapidly balloon out, taking the focus away from Team 7 in order to give side characters a time to shine (with appropriate flashbacks to flesh them out as well as the world). This is where Naruto is given not one but two opponents who act as dark reflections of himself and he befriends them through his words. This is where some serious jumps in power start to happen, as Naruto eventually learns to summon the Frog Boss to fight another Tailed Beast, Sasuke is given a deadly assassination technique, and Gaara can crush people to death in Sand. This is where Sasuke starts going down the path of darkness. And you can't really help but feel it's happening too soon for them to be at this stage like this should have been later on as Team 7 learned more techniques, completely more missions and held firmer bonds than they had at this stage.

 

As time went on, these elements became more problematic. It was like the series kept trying to repeat what it did to get popular in the first place, which caused the story to deteriorate over time. It reminds me a lot of Gundam SEED and it's sequel for this reason. The over-use of flashbacks became a running joke among fans, talk no jutsu became reviled as most adversaries ended up boiling down to "what if Naruto went bad?" as well as expecting the audience to just forget whatever atrocities they did afterwards, during the war they begin adding new characters and expanding the worldbuilding to pad out the time, and fights became more DBZ-like making early opponents like Zabuza look weak in retrospect.

 

The state Naruto ended in was something a long-time coming.

 

Kishi said in a tv interview that he wanted team 7 to travel to other villages to do missions then grauduality going into the chunin exams but his editor at the time told him to go into tourdement arc because it would boast the rank of the naruto manga faster. Maybe team 7 relationship would have benefited more if he did that. But i dont 100 percent trust kishi soooo its a maybe.  :ermm:



#25 Gravenimage

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Posted 14 December 2017 - 08:00 PM

I think the story declined after the Sasuke retrieval Arc when Naruto decided to continue with wanting to save Sasuke. I think that scene in the hospital where Naruto tells Sakura that he will fulfill his promise. To me, instead he should have given up hope on him. He should have stop chasing after him after getting the idea that Sasuke almost killed him but chose to spare him. Serious it's one of the things I couldn't stand about Naruto, his crazy obsession for him. The second thing I can't stand about him is being too selfless when it came to Sakura. He should have at least think for himself for once and just tell her how he feels for her. 

 

But anyway yeah Naruto should have stop chasing after Sasuke ending up having a hole almost in his heart. If have told Sakura he has given up on him I'm sure she would have understand. Maybe she will have the idea of bringing him back to the village but not in the same obsession like Naruto. Though in my personal Naruto should have kill Sasuke at the Valley of the End. Without him the story could go smoothly with Naruto going on his training trip with Jiraiya while fighting the Akatsuki. 

 

The series would have been a whole lot better without Sasuke...Oh and Hinata.


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#26 HalfDemonInuyasha

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Posted 14 December 2017 - 10:58 PM

I think the story declined after the Sasuke retrieval Arc when Naruto decided to continue with wanting to save Sasuke. I think that scene in the hospital where Naruto tells Sakura that he will fulfill his promise. To me, instead he should have given up hope on him. He should have stop chasing after him after getting the idea that Sasuke almost killed him but chose to spare him. Serious it's one of the things I couldn't stand about Naruto, his crazy obsession for him. The second thing I can't stand about him is being too selfless when it came to Sakura. He should have at least think for himself for once and just tell her how he feels for her. 

 

But anyway yeah Naruto should have stop chasing after Sasuke ending up having a hole almost in his heart. If have told Sakura he has given up on him I'm sure she would have understand. Maybe she will have the idea of bringing him back to the village but not in the same obsession like Naruto. Though in my personal Naruto should have kill Sasuke at the Valley of the End. Without him the story could go smoothly with Naruto going on his training trip with Jiraiya while fighting the Akatsuki. 

 

The series would have been a whole lot better without Sasuke...Oh and Hinata.

That's actually one of the points where I feel Naruto could have really started to get some actual reality put into his brain.

Jiraiya even tries to due his own experiences with Orochimaru, but gives up after one try just because of Naruto's enthusiasm and crap when he should've taken him around and actually showed him the world and its reality.


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#27 DrK

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 04:05 AM

Naruto was obsessed with both Sasuke and Sakura. But the one he ended up giving up his obsession with was Sakura, in the Kage Summit arc, when it should have been Sasuke, probably before the Kage Summit arc.



#28 rocci

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 04:09 AM

Naruto was obsessed with both Sasuke and Sakura. But the one he ended up giving up his obsession with was Sakura, in the Kage Summit arc, when it should have been Sasuke, probably before the Kage Summit arc.

At kage summit arc, naruto doesn't give up on sakura. The author did.

I think it would be better if naruto and sasuke fight after pain arc and won. It will solve many thing and make naruto stop with his gay bromance and move to the other thing.

Edited by rocci, 15 December 2017 - 04:10 AM.


#29 DrK

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 04:10 AM

At kage summit arc, naruto doesn't give up on sakura. The author did.

IDK, the abandonment of doing the POAL for Sakura is basically the abandonment of the obsession with Sakura's happiness. I don't see any other way to read the scene. He's saying he is doing this for himself, for his own obsession with Sasuke. Maybe he still likes/loves Sakura, but it's no the same anymore.


Edited by DrK, 15 December 2017 - 04:11 AM.


#30 rocci

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 04:14 AM

IDK, the abandonment of doing the POAL for Sakura is basically the abandonment of the obsession with Sakura's happiness. I don't see any other way to read the scene. He's saying he is doing this for himself, for his own obsession with Sasuke.

I personally don't see it that way.
I think with or without poal naruto will save sasuke because he's still a hero in shonen manga.
On top of that I always see poal as naruto and sakura thing with sasuke as the object of the promise. Kishi even brought it up before naruto vs sasuke.

I think it would be better if kishi just make naruto doesn't love sakura right in the kage summit arc rather than drag it off like he did in the manga that only hurt nh.

#31 DrK

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 04:20 AM

I personally don't see it that way.
I think with or without poal naruto will save sasuke because he's still a hero in shonen manga.

His goal doesn't change, but the context does. I'm not saying if he was still obsess with Sakura he would accept the confession or give up on Sasuke because Sakura said so. But the rejection of the POAL constitutes a rejection of Sakura. Because it's not about Sakura anymore. There is no way this can ever be good for NS no matter how you look at it.

 

It would be a little kittened up to have Naruto completely stop after that point, because NS just reached a high point at Pain arc. But what happened was kittened up as well so it would probably have been better than what happened.



#32 rocci

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 07:16 AM

His goal doesn't change, but the context does. I'm not saying if he was still obsess with Sakura he would accept the confession or give up on Sasuke because Sakura said so. But the rejection of the POAL constitutes a rejection of Sakura. Because it's not about Sakura anymore. There is no way this can ever be good for NS no matter how you look at it.
 
It would be a little kittened up to have Naruto completely stop after that point, because NS just reached a high point at Pain arc. But what happened was kittened up as well so it would probably have been better than what happened.

I will not call naruto love for sakura is obsession. He's too selfless for that.

Naruto doesn't reject poal, he reject sakura confession because he think she still love sasuke and suddenly she confess her love which make him suspicious. it doesn't negate poal, it just show that naruto will save sasuke even without poal but then poal is important to the relationship with sakura especially to advance it. Hence why saving sasuke is important to NS to fulfill the promise.

The confession doesn't kill NS, because it doesn't make naruto doesn't love sakura anymore, but it make sakura look bad by making her a manipulative kitten.

#33 DrK

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 03:34 PM

I will not call naruto love for sakura is obsession. He's too selfless for that.

 

Naruto doesn't reject poal, he reject sakura confession because he think she still love sasuke and suddenly she confess her love which make him suspicious. it doesn't negate poal, it just show that naruto will save sasuke even without poal but then poal is important to the relationship with sakura especially to advance it. Hence why saving sasuke is important to NS to fulfill the promise. 
 
The confession doesn't kill NS, because it doesn't make naruto doesn't love sakura anymore, but it make sakura look bad by making her a manipulative kitten. 

Well, he was obsessed with trying to make her happy. Then in Kage he says basically that it's not about her. Maybe I need to read it again. Sakura did end up looking bad, but Kishi doesn't seem to care about this fact.


Edited by DrK, 15 December 2017 - 03:34 PM.


#34 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 06:32 PM

He DID care because he went on right after she got backlash from the fans for that to call her "an honest girl." regarding the confession.

He retcons himself consistently though :zaru:

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#35 James S Cassidy

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 06:37 PM

There is a lot of word play that doesn't really make sense in the Kage Summit Arc and this is why it seems to be the most hated arc. None of it made any sense. Sasuke goes from anti-hero to evil back to anti-hero in a span of like a few chapters. Sasuke talks about how "Itachi's power flows within him" after he gets Itachi's eyes and it lead to nothing. Kakashi talks about how a "great weight" has been lifted off his shoulders, but it seems like he is still obsessed with saving Sasuke and he is still burdened by him so what was this "great weight?" The fact that he had to fight Sasuke and couldn't just talk to him that was the huge burden? 

Naruto just....I don't know....he is just so...."uninterested" in the safety of others at this point. Yeah he saves Sakura and all, but he takes Sasuke's attempted murder of Sakura so nonchalantly. "Yeah, no big deal. Just Sasuke being Sasuke." Like, it is really hard to explain. It felt like padding rather than story progression or dynamic character build and it was all for nothing anyway. Most of what the characters said or what they supposedly "accepted" was not what they felt later on.

I don't know when or where the actual decline happens, but the Kage Summit Arc was a definitly clear sign of how the story was gonna pan out from here on with useless drama that went nowhere or solved nothing. I mean, Naruto SAW Sasuke attempt to murder Sakura, but then is so surprised when Sasuke leaves Sakura and Kakashi to die. Like, really Naruto? You're surprised Sasuke is a jackass? Have you learned nothing? *sigh*

I will say this. The story may have been butchered sooner, but Naruto's character definitly died in the Kage Summit Arc. Sakura's character...died around chapter 692-693 and Sasuke died around the end of the manga itself.

Kakashi: "Sakura, you still love Sasuke, but it is a different kind of love now."
What the hell does that mean? She is still obsessed with him, so what changed? Kakashi you are so full of it.

Save for some sporadic moments that looked awesome like the NS moments and Minato and the Hokage.....most of the War Arc was just utter garbage.

 


Edited by James S Cassidy, 15 December 2017 - 06:40 PM.

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#36 DrK

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 06:38 PM

He DID care because he went on right after she got backlash from the fans for that to call her "an honest girl." regarding the confession.

I meant she ended up looking bad after the ending, because the confession would have to have been manipulative in that case. I will try to talk about it in the other thread later, but it's bad. The confession could have been fine.

 

Kakashi was a total idiot if he thought there was a bond between himself and Sasuke. Sasuke was just using him to obtain more power in Part 1 and had little interest in Kakashi otherwise and didn't attempt to hide this fact in the least. He couldn't have cared less about Kakashi. He cared a little bit about Sakura. A little.


Edited by DrK, 15 December 2017 - 06:42 PM.


#37 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 06:55 PM

Well yea, in retrospect everyone looks bad in the ending :lmao: but the confession seems to have always Stained Sakura.

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#38 rocci

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 07:54 PM

Well, he was obsessed with trying to make her happy. Then in Kage he says basically that it's not about her. Maybe I need to read it again. Sakura did end up looking bad, but Kishi doesn't seem to care about this fact.

Kishi abandoned her when he said in the interview he will make her more heroine due to the backlash she recieve from her act in kage summit arc. Better be honest by saying that she is not heroine like what he did post ending.

@drk
There's sakura confession Thead.
Sasuke cared for the other team seven members only as teammate and that's the best relationship you can get from sasuke. Sasuke respect kakashi as a teacher and sasuke acknowledge sakura as teammate he never cared about her more than that.

It's naruto who hold special relationship other than his family.

Edited by rocci, 15 December 2017 - 08:01 PM.


#39 DrK

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 08:26 PM

@drk
There's sakura confession Thead.

I read it before. I'll look at the scene again, but I hate Naruto in that scene more than I hate anything Sakura does.



#40 Phantom_999

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 02:52 AM

I WILL say this. We can debate all we want about when the series declined in writing quality, But we can all AGREE that the entire series went to sh----it when it started its Sasuke Kitten stroking (from the title character especially), Uchiha worshiping/ Tragic anti-villain SOB STORIES FOR THE ENTIRE CLAN, (from the creator no-less) and ultimately the HINATA FAN WANKING!!!!!!! :zaru:  :zaru:  :zaru: Am I right? Am I right?  :lmao:  :excited:


Edited by Phantom_999, 17 December 2017 - 11:44 AM.

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