171 replies to this topic

[KClaws_2]

 

It's not even a red herring. The end of Gaiden spells it out. I hate that subplot is even included Gaiden because it defeats the purpose of its core point (and completely mucks it up).

I know. That's why I put it in quotes.

 

In fact, it feels like Kishimoto doesn't understand what a red herring is. He lays out clues that head a certain direction, and then gives us an answer that contradicts all of them thinking that's it. No. You can surprise us with the answer, but the clues STILL must hold up.

 

Anyone who argues otherwise needs to watch the "Who Shot Mr. Burns?" episodes from the Simpsons. They did a good job of laying out clues, give us an unexpected answer but still consistent with the clues. 

[griff142]

I know. That's why I put it in quotes.
 
In fact, it feels like Kishimoto doesn't understand what a red herring is. He lays out clues that head a certain direction, and then gives us an answer that contradicts all of them thinking that's it. No. You can surprise us with the answer, but the clues STILL must hold up.
 
Anyone who argues otherwise needs to watch the "Who Shot Mr. Burns?" episodes from the Simpsons. They did a good job of laying out clues, give us an unexpected answer but still consistent with the clues.

Exactly, if you pull a red herring or surprise us with a different outcome then you have to have the evidence to support it. If you pull stuff out of nowhere it makes the story inconsistent and creates huge, glaring plot holes that makes it hard to enjoy certain things in the story.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

 

It's not even a red herring. The end of Gaiden spells it out. I hate that subplot is even included Gaiden because it defeats the purpose of its core point (and completely mucks it up).

One of the most stupid things they did with Gaiden is that they immediately expose the fact that Naruto FAILED. After all his preaching, all his talk, all his promises, he completely FAILED, which is only much more compounded by the VERY FIRST PAGES of the Boruto manga. And that's on top of just not giving any info on Shin "Uchiha" either; who he was, how he got those Sharingan, and so on. He was pretty much nothing but just more Sharingan wanking because they gave it so many abilities and crap that they just had NO idea on just what could possibly challenge Boruto's dad and/or Sasuke (aside from more Rinnegan stuff like the movie does), even though the story was supposed to introduce people to the "new generation".

 

I know. That's why I put it in quotes.

 

In fact, it feels like Kishimoto doesn't understand what a red herring is. He lays out clues that head a certain direction, and then gives us an answer that contradicts all of them thinking that's it. No. You can surprise us with the answer, but the clues STILL must hold up.

 

Anyone who argues otherwise needs to watch the "Who Shot Mr. Burns?" episodes from the Simpsons. They did a good job of laying out clues, give us an unexpected answer but still consistent with the clues. 

And each potential destination needs to be believable. It's why the "NS was only a red herring and NH was 'the plan' all along!" excuse is BS, because NH was never a believable end point based on the narrative, so you can't expect (logical) people to question NS and think, "Maybe NH COULD possibly happen..." like a good red herring could.

[DrK]

One of the most stupid things they did with Gaiden is that they immediately expose the fact that Naruto FAILED. After all his preaching, all his talk, all his promises, he completely FAILED, which is only much more compounded by the VERY FIRST PAGES of the Boruto manga. And that's on top of just not giving any info on Shin "Uchiha" either; who he was, how he got those Sharingan, and so on. He was pretty much nothing but just more Sharingan wanking

I read a summary that wasn't very well written, so I assumed that the guy was going to be like Danzo except with the Sharingans all over his body, not just his arm. Like his skin was just made out of Sharingans.

 

I was very disappointed.

[Yyubie]

One think i'm very sure of , when the enemy / villain have sharingan or related to the uchiha clan that means it's Kishimoto idea or at least he is in control of the story. But when the villain have byakugan or related to the hyuga clan that means SP in control of the story that means Kishi no longer control the story. Bottom line is Kishi love uchiha and sharingan , he adore them , he glorified them , they are his golden boy. While SP love byakugan and Hinata.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

One think i'm very sure of , when the enemy / villain have sharingan or related to the uchiha clan that means it's Kishimoto idea or at least he is in control of the story. But when the villain have byakugan or related to the hyuga clan that means SP in control of the story that means Kishi no longer control the story. Bottom line is Kishi love uchiha and sharingan , he adore them , he glorified them , they are his golden boy. While SP love byakugan and Hinata.

 

No kidding, and it's a shame really how things are, when really, there can be so much else that's cool that you could do outside of spamming the Uchiha and the Hyuga and such. Find something new to do, don't just do "What's old is new again." and all that lazy crap.

[griff142]

No kidding, and it's a shame really how things are, when really, there can be so much else that's cool that you could do outside of spamming the Uchiha and the Hyuga and such. Find something new to do, don't just do "What's old is new again." and all that lazy crap.

.
I don't know why they made the eye techniques so OP. I know they are cool and all but they shouldn't be the only power you should rely on. Unfortunatley, Kishi portrayed those eyes as the only tool you need in a fight more especially the Uchiha's Susanno which is ridiculous when you think about it. Take their eyes away and you have useless ninja because they can't fight without them.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

.
I don't know why they made the eye techniques so OP. I know they are cool and all but they shouldn't be the only power you should rely on. Unfortunatley, Kishi portrayed those eyes as the only tool you need in a fight more especially the Uchiha's Susanno which is ridiculous when you think about it. Take their eyes away and you have useless ninja because they can't fight without them.

And that's actually the case with pretty much every clan with a kekkei genkai, or almost anyone with a special/unique power - they tend to base EVERYTHING about their fighting style around it rather than using it to support a bunch of other things. If they ever come up against an opponent who can stand up to, counter, and/or negate said kekkei genkai, yeah, the one(s) in question instantly lose most of their power and ones like Naruto (with Kurama's chakra), the Hyuga, and Uchiha are chief among them.

[RulesofNature]

One of the things that just feels wrong about the ending is how it pushes conformity. Sure, traditional Japanese values. But shonen is meant to be an escape from that, with it's protagonists following their dreams, defying authority, and fixing broken systems. It's rooted in the Japanese generational gap. The older people want the younger to follow them obediently, while the younger generations have seen the failings of the older ways.

 

With Naruto, it's about enduring suffering to continue those systems, submitting to tradition, and turning having Naruto achieving his dreams turned into a joke. It's taking the side of the adults, especially in Boruto, and then the people making it wonder why it isn't as popular as Naruto was back when it was emblematic of what shonen is meant to be.

[KClaws_2]

One of the things that just feels wrong about the ending is how it pushes conformity. Sure, traditional Japanese values. But shonen is meant to be an escape from that, with it's protagonists following their dreams, defying authority, and fixing broken systems. It's rooted in the Japanese generational gap. The older people want the younger to follow them obediently, while the younger generations have seen the failings of the older ways.

 

With Naruto, it's about enduring suffering to continue those systems, submitting to tradition, and turning having Naruto achieving his dreams turned into a joke. It's taking the side of the adults, especially in Boruto, and then the people making it wonder why it isn't as popular as Naruto was back when it was emblematic of what shonen is meant to be.

Exactly. Look at other shonen series.

 

Yu Yu Hakusho ended with Yusuke travelling to the Demon World, and when he got there, instead of allowing the realm to fall into war, he set up a kind of "violent democracy" for the demons. In addition, he and Koenma had discovered Enma had secretly been allowing powerful demons to slip through the barrier to justify it's existence (today, this sounds ERRILY familiar)

 

Rurouni Kenshin was very critical of the Meji government, and while it did not advocate for outright rebellion, it did emphasize the shades of gray a government can have and how the next generation has to change the world (the right way).

 

With current shonen, Bleach had an entire arc about Ichigo and friends going against Soul Society, just to save one person. One Piece is about Pirates, so...yeah. Fullmetal Alchemist also showed the brothers going up against a conspiracy millennia in the making within their own government.

 

Heck, you can look at what's going on with Shokugeki no Soma right now. I guess this one's more complicated, since Azami's plan is "technically" the revolution, but it's one that's eliminating individual freedom and thought. Despite how cutthroat the original Tootsuki could be, Soma and friends loved that they were able to challenge and express themselves. So Azami's revolution is arguably quite Japanese.

 

Though it is Seinen, Akame ga Kill also dealt with corrupt governments, though the antagonists are so evil that realistically they wouldn't last long without erupting into civil war.

[Bail o' Lies]

One of the things that just feels wrong about the ending is how it pushes conformity. Sure, traditional Japanese values. But shonen is meant to be an escape from that, with it's protagonists following their dreams, defying authority, and fixing broken systems. It's rooted in the Japanese generational gap. The older people want the younger to follow them obediently, while the younger generations have seen the failings of the older ways.

 

With Naruto, it's about enduring suffering to continue those systems, submitting to tradition, and turning having Naruto achieving his dreams turned into a joke. It's taking the side of the adults, especially in Boruto, and then the people making it wonder why it isn't as popular as Naruto was back when it was emblematic of what shonen is meant to be.

Its less conforming to society, or accepting/enduring suffering (even though I have said that before) as much as it is resigning yourself to it.

 

Boruto is a generic anime that lacks a lot of the edge or meaning other shounen stories have. It doesn't even have good writing or likable characters that can make it stand out. All it has is nostalgia, and they pissed off then bored their domestic fanbase to death.

[griff142]

Its less conforming to society, or accepting/enduring suffering (even though I have said that before) as much as it is resigning yourself to it.
 
Boruto is a generic anime that lacks a lot of the edge or meaning other shounen stories have. It doesn't even have good writing or likable characters that can make it stand out. All it has is nostalgia, and they pissed off then bored their domestic fanbase to death.

Yeah when you are solely using nostalgia to get ratings then you are trouble. I heard they brought back White Zetsu and I laughed. They couldn't afford to bring back one of the more popular ones. I would have preferred Hidan or Tobi over that guy.

[Bail o' Lies]

Yeah when you are solely using nostalgia to get ratings then you are trouble. I heard they brought back White Zetsu and I laughed. They couldn't afford to bring back one of the more popular ones. I would have preferred Hidan or Tobi over that guy.

...sigh. Well, there were a lot of them, figures a few of them may still be alive. Didn't tobi get his quirky personality from one of the zetsu? Kishimoto could never decided if Hidan was alive or not; can't wait for them to use him and Bolt beats him easily.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

...sigh. Well, there were a lot of them, figures a few of them may still be alive. Didn't tobi get his quirky personality from one of the zetsu? Kishimoto could never decided if Hidan was alive or not; can't wait for them to use him and Bolt beats him easily.

First, Hidan gets established as actually immortal through Jashinism...then out of nowhere says that he would die from starvation while his head is trapped...yeah, some "immortality", huh? Can take getting impaled, blown away by jutsu, getting decapitated...but miss a few weeks of food and he's dead...

[griff142]

First, Hidan gets established as actually immortal through Jashinism...then out of nowhere says that he would die from starvation while his head is trapped...yeah, some "immortality", huh? Can take getting impaled, blown away by jutsu, getting decapitated...but miss a few weeks of food and he's dead...

Maybe I can understand if they needed a loophole to actually get rid of him so he is not someone they have to constantly deal with it but they could have come up something way better than starvation when like you said, can handle having his head cut off. In all honesty, I wouldn't have made him immortal in the first place if I didn't have a way to properly kill him.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

First, Hidan gets established as actually immortal through Jashinism...then out of nowhere says that he would die from starvation while his head is trapped...yeah, some "immortality", huh? Can take getting impaled, blown away by jutsu, getting decapitated...but miss a few weeks of food and he's dead...

 

Well, it's about killing in the name of Jashin that sustained Hidan's immortality from what I remember reading, but considering how source stuff can be contradicted in Naruto so easily now to fit its true masters/owners' own narrative, you're probably right.

[DrK]

Why was it necessary to kill him? No one knew what happened other than Shikamaru. No one would ever go there other than the Nara. So he can just suffer sensory deprivation forever. It's not very pleasant to think about, but he certainly deserved it, considering he derived so much pleasure from killing people.

 

Actually, he shouldn't have even been killed. They should have dug him up after they won the war. Because they forgave Sasuke and Orochimaru who were just as bad as he was. You can't pick and choose.

Edited by DrK, 03 April 2018 - 06:48 PM.

[Phantom_999]

Yeah and that is another $#!% theme that is not even consistent in the story. forgiveness is not even universal, they just handpick whoever it is CONVENIENT to forgive 

Edited by Phantom_999, 03 April 2018 - 07:00 PM.

[griff142]

Yeah and that is another $#!% theme that is not even consistent in the story. forgiveness is not even universal, they just handpick whoever it is CONVENIENT to forgive 

Not convenient, just favoritism because Naruto wanted to save his buddy Sasuke and the Team 7 for life nonsense. Even though they spent more time apart than actually being on a team.

[Phantom_999]

Sasuke is favouritism but what about Orochimaru?