25 replies to this topic

[James S Cassidy]

Chatte and Slextrem wanted me to do this so we can save it for record. Also got other request to put this here so I am going to put this here for the record.

And to add as a joke

Wall of Jericho. --Click here to view--

I am about to go deep here. I have no real hard evidence to support my claim, but it is more like me reanalyzing Naruto.

I've meditated on this manga a lot; tried to get inside Naruto's head as a character and the psychological reasoning about him. Even though he is the product of a writer, I tried to imagine myself through him. If it were me in the same situation how would I behave? Most of the time I would have done exactly as he would. Other times I would do something completely different.

I even went back and read the manga in a different mind-set thinking and I find a lot of stuff to be different than I had originally thought. The facts change constantly and some might not be as true as some think. I then question the writer himself. Why did he do this, why didn't he do that? What is he trying to convey?

Naruto does sometimes act out of character and does things that normally he would not do. You all know these scenes and can feel it in the writing style. I don't need to explain them. I've always wondered why. So I dig deeper. Why? Is it Kishimoto's bad writing? Is it a mistake? It is rushed? Maybe it is everything. Maybe there is some underlying purpose. Theories abound yet nothing definitive.

So I go back to Naruto. Look at him as a character. As a person.

Naruto is not a perfect character. He has his flaws. He has his moments. He also has is own way of dealing with the truth or hiding away from pain and you wonder if he purposely pushes people away from him after a while. Sure, in the beginning he wanted attention, but now he just seems to push people away. He can't let people get inside his own heart and soul. He builds up defenses to his own heart because he is afraid of not getting what he desires. Sometimes I even feel like he is afraid to be happy thinking he doesn't deserve it yet.

He may even build up walls. Walls that are meant to be broken down. Not an easy thing to do. Who can break down Naruto's walls? I took off my shipping glasses and really wanted to think about this. Sai? I find that friends, as much as they care, cannot break the walls. It's not their fault just how things are. Sasuke? I actually believe he is the one that made Naruto build the walls. Sure he gave him a rival and first to see him as equal, but Sasuke is cold and believes that emotion is a flaw that people can exploit. At least how I see it. Naruto sees that and sub-consciously builds a wall so he does not suffer the same fate. Sasuke loved his brother and trusted him. Itachi, for the reason we already know, had to betray that trust to keep him safe. Whether you like him or not, he had to do that to save his brother. Naruto understands this and he builds this wall around himself so he isn't corrupted the same way Sasuke is.

Pain, as demonstrated by many villains, have been the number one cause of these villains turning to the dark side of the force. It's also shown that many of the pain inducers were caused by people who the person trusted and loved. This is why Naruto distances himself from others. He doesn't really talk about himself does he? Sure he talks about his goals and his nindo and such, but he never really talked about himself. He didn't want them to see him as weak and take advantage of that. So again, he builds that wall. It doesn't change him, just makes him distant so he doesn't change.

Can Hinata break down the walls? Trying to be as none bias as I can be I'd say no simply because she enforces the behavior. She rather instead coddle to Naruto and tell him that she rather have him safe than push his luck. This doesn't encourage growth. This doesn't encourage him to push out of his shell and see the sun. She is not trying to keep him in there, but instead says "Take your time. I'll be here." She doesn't make him realize what he is missing by not letting out of his shell. This is still why he feels that everything relies on him. This is why he feels compelled to think that his problems are only his alone to bear. I have seen people say that 615 shows Hinata pushing Naruto out of the hopelessness, but it doesn't break down the wall. Like I said, the goals and nindo are the wall itself. Stuff he hides behind to mask what he really desires. Acceptance is a part of it, but it's funny how he thought being a Hokage would make everyone appreciate him. As we know leaders can be admired, but that doesn't mean they are loved. Some do it out of fear. I don't think Naruto realized this.

I thought about Hinata’s confession and asked if this was breaking down the walls of his. If I really had to tell the truth, it would be no. It’s close, don’t get me wrong, but she didn’t push it. She didn’t push herself or explained herself and because of this it slipped Naruto’s mind. I am not talking about pushing as in trying to push herself into Naruto’s life like she has been. I mean pushing as in talking about it, which again Naruto has not done and won’t do on his own merit because of those walls. Shame on Naruto, yes, but Naruto’s feelings for Sakura also plays a part in it. If Hinata talked to Naruto about the confession, then I would say that NaruHina would get a real growth in chance. Still not a guarantee it would happen, but it would give Naruto something to think about. The last thing he would need is to find the answers first to the questions he is asking. This did not happen though and that’s why the confession was never again brought up.

So we come to the all important question: Can Sakura break down the walls? Again, in a non-bias view…Yes. The advantage that Sakura has is she has seen Naruto at his weakest and at his strongest and, thanks to Sai, she sort of knows what lies behind the wall. She is still in the dark about a few things, but she is a lot closer to seeing who Naruto really is than Hinata or Sai. Sai only knows half the information and while he has figured out what makes Naruto tick, he has not seen Naruto without the walls given that he has no idea about Sasuke and his role.

The all important Sakura confession: I have covered this before, but now I am going to look at this from a different angle. With Hinata’s confession we have no conversation. With this one, they had a bad argument that nearly drove them apart. You know why? I do. Could it be that Sakura put a crack in Naruto’s wall? I think so. Still not broken down, but it did crack it to make Naruto see a truth through the hole. Kishimoto said in an interview that Sakura was being a truthful, but stubborn woman. That is why she can break down his walls because she refuses to give in and let him hide. She doesn’t want him to hide. She doesn’t want him to be afraid of his feelings. She doesn’t want him to hide behind the wall like Sasuke did otherwise Naruto might one day be just like him.

Sakura does have her own problems to work out, but I’ve already covered this. Instead I am looked at the mere fact that this fight took place. No relationship is perfect. I like Maroon 5’s song “She will be loved” and why I like this song as a NS theme song. In the song there is a line “It’s not always rainbows and butterflies, its compromise that moves us along.” It means we may fight from time to time, but that’s how we communicate. That’s how we convey what we want and want we feel. Compromising is what they do afterwards to end the fights.

Naruto then said she was lying to herself. I think I have another reason why he said this. It goes along with how Naruto still thinks Sakura loves Sasuke. The walls of his own insecurities are what push Sakura away. Sakura fought back with him claiming that he doesn’t understand. He doesn’t realize. I wonder is this here more or less saying “If you don’t come out of your shell and admit what you feel, then you are going to miss out on the things that make you happy.” Sakura even asked Naruto “If you don’t like me, then tell me.” Paraphrase of course and I realized Naruto didn’t answer this with a straight answer. If he didn’t love her, why not just tell her there? Boom, Over, Done, but he didn’t. Instead he tells her about Sasuke and that he understands him; hiding behind the wall. Naruto doesn’t disagree with Sasuke does he? Not really. More like he understands why he did it.

Sasuke is both the thing that ties Naruto and Sakura together and keeps them apart; Sakura with her emotions about Sasuke and Naruto with his feelings on Sasuke. Sakura is trying to come to terms with her own conflictions, but overall she rather stay with Naruto. Even in her last thought “No matter what, we will be together.” She is pushing Naruto to open his shell and to tear down the walls to see the truth of it. Hinata just cannot do this. She cannot get to Naruto because she has no clue how to reach Naruto on that level. Sakura can. This is why Sakura is going to be the heroine. She is not saving Naruto from Sasuke or Obito. She is going to save Naruto from himself. With that being said, I strongly believe that Naruto is more insecure than Sakura is. Naruto doesn’t believe he can win in the end and is not strong enough to do so.

The mere idea of this has caused me to see this manga in a different way or at least have one more view of it. We like to see this manga from a different angle. Try this one. At least for fun, try it.

Now there is one last topic I wish to convey and I feel it needs to be elaborated on. That is “MinatoxKushina = NarutoxSakura.”
The parallels are there, but there are a few things that make them different. I first want to talk about Naruto to this. Naruto is said to have his father’s look, but his mother’s personality. Kushina was insecure about herself and she also built up walls. Minato broke them down. One thing that differs is that while Naruto and Kushina both were host, Kushina did not have the horrible life Naruto had growing up. Sure, they picked on Kushina, but she wasn’t hated by the adults as Naruto was and neglected. In fact, her flashbacks seem to tell a different story where she was well liked when she grew up. No one knew she was the host and it made it a lot easier for her to fit in. Naruto on the other hand it was a different story.

Minato, if the flashbacks are anything to go by, wasn’t picked on or hated either. So again, they had an easier childhood to deal with because they were not seen as true outcasts. I know someone will argue about this with Kushina, but children picking on each other are something that happens to everyone. It has happened to me, but I was not an outcast. I also don’t recall Minato having other crushes after him, but that is not to say he didn’t have any. Imagine if Kishi did a true Minato Gaiden and there is a Hinata like character that had a crush on Minato? (I smell fanfiction.)

Fast forward to Naruto and Sakura and their childhoods were different. Naruto was seen as an outcast and Sakura was picked on for her forehead. (However, the outcast stuff seems to only build the walls, not affect why Naruto and Sakura are not together.) Unlike Kushina, Sakura had a crush on someone else, but they did see the Naruto/Minato the same way: as a goof ball. Minato proved he cared about her by complimenting on her hair and saving her, that’s when she first had feelings for him. Naruto has saved Sakura many times and has complimented on Sakura’s forehead. The difference is Naruto was posed as Sasuke.
Funny how the one thing that keeps Naruto and Sakura apart is Sasuke: an element that MinatoxKushina did not have to face as far as it has been told. This major difference is the reason why it has not been as easy for NaruSaku to happen as it was MinatoxKushina. So what needs to happen is that Sasuke needs to be dealt with.

This is another reason why NaruSaku is canon in my eyes. If Sasuke never existed, NaruSaku would have been canon a long time ago. Just think about this. How easy would it have been for Sakura to notice Naruto if Sasuke never existed? Sasuke is a rival bear in mind and rivals are not just in rivals of power and accomplishments. Sometimes they could be rivals in love. We also know that Sasuke was put in because one of Kishi’s editors suggested it. So he was not part of the original plan and Hinata was just a village girl. So, why the changes? It makes the story more interesting.

That’s all. Sorry I don’t have anything to put down to be more inspiring, but this is me looking at the manga in a different view.

I was blindfolded, but now I'm seeing
My mind was closing, now I'm believing
I finally know just what it means to let someone in
To see the side of me that no one does or ever will
So if you're ever lost and find yourself all alone
I'd search forever just to bring you home,
Here and now this I vow.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 20 January 2013 - 04:34 AM.

[Chatte]

Oh, James, I love you for this!!! ♥♥♥
Thanks once again!

[Slextrem]

I love this post! I actually saved it in Microsoft Word because it's so awesome! Thanks for posting it here.

[Tsubaki]

Awesome post as always James!!

[candycane-chan]

Great post!
Thank you for sharing your wonderfull thoughts here

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Chatte and Slextrem wanted me to do this so we can save it for record. Also got other request to put this here so I am going to put this here for the record.

And to add as a joke

Wall of Jericho. --Click here to view--

I am about to go deep here. I have no real hard evidence to support my claim, but it is more like me reanalyzing Naruto.

I've meditated on this manga a lot; tried to get inside Naruto's head as a character and the psychological reasoning about him. Even though he is the product of a writer, I tried to imagine myself through him. If it were me in the same situation how would I behave? Most of the time I would have done exactly as he would. Other times I would do something completely different.

I even went back and read the manga in a different mind-set thinking and I find a lot of stuff to be different than I had originally thought. The facts change constantly and some might not be as true as some think. I then question the writer himself. Why did he do this, why didn't he do that? What is he trying to convey?

Naruto does sometimes act out of character and does things that normally he would not do. You all know these scenes and can feel it in the writing style. I don't need to explain them. I've always wondered why. So I dig deeper. Why? Is it Kishimoto's bad writing? Is it a mistake? It is rushed? Maybe it is everything. Maybe there is some underlying purpose. Theories abound yet nothing definitive.

So I go back to Naruto. Look at him as a character. As a person.

Naruto is not a perfect character. He has his flaws. He has his moments. He also has is own way of dealing with the truth or hiding away from pain and you wonder if he purposely pushes people away from him after a while. Sure, in the beginning he wanted attention, but now he just seems to push people away. He can't let people get inside his own heart and soul. He builds up defenses to his own heart because he afraid of not getting what he desires. Sometimes I even feel like he is afraid to be happy thinking he doesn't deserve it yet.

He may even build up walls. Walls that are meant to be broken down. Not an easy thing to do. Who can break down Naruto's walls? I took off my shipping glasses and really wanted to think about this. Sai? I find that friends, as much as they care, cannot break the walls. It's not their fault just how things are. Sasuke? I actually believe he is the one that made Naruto build the wall. Sure he gave him a rival and first to see him as equal, but Sasuke is cold and believes that emotion is a flaw that people can exploit. At least how I see it. Naruto sees that and sub-consciously builds a wall so he does not suffer the same fate. Sasuke loved his brother and trusted him. Itachi, for the reason we already know, had to betray that trust to keep him safe. Whether you like him or not, he had to do that to save his brother. Naruto understands this and he builds this wall around himself so he isn't corrupted the same way Sasuke is.

Pain, as demonstrated by many villains, have been the number one cause of these villains turning to the dark side of the force. It's also shown that many of the pain inducers were caused by people who the person trusted and loved. This is why Naruto distances himself from others. He doesn't really talk about himself does he? Sure he talks about his goals and his nindo and such, but he never really talked about himself. He didn't want them to see him as weak and take advantage of that. So again, he builds that wall. It doesn't change him, just makes him distant so he doesn't change.

Can Hinata break down the walls? Trying to be as none bias as I can be I'd say no simply because she enforces the behavior. She rather instead coddle to Naruto and tell him that she rather have him safe than push his luck. This doesn't encourage growth. This doesn't encourage him to push out of his shell and see the sun. She is not trying to keep him in there, but instead says "Take your time. I'll be here." She does make him realize what he is missing by letting out of his shell. This is still why he feels that everything relies on him. This is why he feels compelled to think that his problems are only his alone to bear. I have seen people say that 615 shows Hinata pushing Naruto out of the hopelessness, but it doesn't break own the wall. Like I said, the goals and nindo are the wall itself. Stuff he hides behind to mask what he really desires. Acceptance is a part of it, but it's funny how he thought being a Hokage would make everyone appreciate him. As we know leaders can be admired, but that doesn't mean they are loved. Some do it out of fear. I don't think Naruto realized this.

I thought about Hinata’s confession and asked if this was breaking down the walls of his. If I really had to tell the truth, it would be no. It’s close, don’t get me wrong, but she didn’t push it. She didn’t push herself or explained herself and because of this it slipped Naruto’s mind. I am not talking about pushing as in trying to push herself into Naruto’s life like she has been. I mean pushing as in talking about it which again Naruto has not done and won’t do on his own merit because of those walls. Shame on Naruto, yes, but Naruto’s feelings for Sakura also plays a part in it. If Hinata talked to Naruto about the confession, then I would say that NaruHina would get a real growth in chance. Still not a guarantee it would happen, but it would give Naruto something to think about. The last thing he would need is to find the answers first to the questions he is asking. This did not happen though and that’s why the confession was never again brought up.

So we come to the all important question: Can Sakura break down the walls? Again, in a non-bias view…Yes. The advantage that Sakura has is she has seen Naruto at his weakest and at his strongest and, thanks to Sai, she sort of knows what lies behind the wall. She is still in the dark about a few things, but she is a lot closer to seeing who Naruto really is than Hinata or Sai. Sai only knows half the information and while he has figured out what make Naruto tick, he has not seen Naruto without the walls given that he has no idea about Sasuke and his role.

The all important Sakura confession: I have covered this before, but now I am going to look at this from a different angle. With Hinata’s confession we have no conversation. With this one, they had a bad argument that nearly drove them apart. You know why? I do. Could it be that Sakura put a crack in Naruto’s wall? I think so. Still not broken down, but it did crack it to make Naruto see a truth through the hole. Kishimoto said in an interview that Sakura was being a truthful, but stubborn woman. That is why she can break down his walls because she refuses to give in and let him hide. She doesn’t want him to hide. She doesn’t want him to be afraid of his feelings. She doesn’t want him to hide behind the wall like Sasuke did otherwise Naruto might one day be just like him.

Sakura does have her own problems to work out, but I’ve already covered this. Instead I am looked at the mere fact that this fight took place. No relationship is perfect. I like Maroon 5’s song “She will be loved” and why I like this song as a NS theme song. In the song there is a line “It’s not always rainbows and butterflies, its compromise that moves us along.” It means we may fight from time to time, but that’s how we communicate. That’s how we convey what we want and want we feel. Compromising is what they do afterwards to end the fights.

Naruto then said she was lying to herself. I think I have another reason why he said this. It goes along with how Naruto still thinks Sakura loves Sasuke. The walls of his own insecurities are what push Sakura away. Sakura fought back with him claiming that he doesn’t understand. He doesn’t realize. I wonder is this here more or less saying “If you don’t come out of your shell and admit what you feel, then you are going to miss out on the things that make you happy.” Sakura even asked Naruto “If you don’t like me, then tell me.” Paraphrase of course and I realized Naruto didn’t answer this with a straight answer. If he didn’t love her, why not just tell her there? Boom, Over, Done, but he didn’t. Instead he tells her about Sasuke and that he understands him; hiding behind the wall. Naruto doesn’t disagree with Sasuke does he? Not really. More like he understands why he did it.

Sasuke is both the thing that ties Naruto and Sakura together and keeps them apart; Sakura with her emotions about Sasuke and Naruto with his feelings on Sasuke. Sakura is trying to come to terms with her own conflictions, but overall she rather stay with Naruto. Even in her last thought “No matter what, we will be together.” She is pushing Naruto to open his shell and to tear down the walls to see the truth of it. Hinata just cannot do this. She cannot get to Naruto because she has no clue how to reach Naruto on that level. Sakura can. This is why Sakura is going to be the heroine. She is not saving Naruto from Sasuke or Obito. She is going to save Naruto from himself. With that being said, I strongly believe that Naruto is more insecure than Sakura is. Naruto doesn’t believe he can win in the end and is not strong enough to do so.
The mere idea of this has caused me to see this manga in a different way or at least have one more view of it. We like to see this manga from a different angle. Then try this one. At least for fun, try it.
Now there is one last topic I wish to convey and I feel it needs to be elaborated on. That is “MinatoxKushina = NarutoxSakura.”
The parallels are there, but there are a few things that make them different. I first want to talk about Naruto to this. Naruto is said to have his father’s look, but his mother’s personality. Kushina was insecure about herself and she also built up walls. Minato broke them down. One thing that differs is that while Naruto and Kushina both was host, Kushina did not have the horrible life Naruto had growing up. Sure, they picked on Kushina, but she wasn’t hated by the adults as Naruto was and neglected. In fact, her flashbacks seem to tell a different story where she was well liked when she grew up. No one knew she was the host and it made it a lot easier for her to fit in. Naruto on the other hand it was a different story.

Minato, if the flashbacks are anything to go by, wasn’t picked on or hated either. So again, they had an easier childhood to deal with because they were not seen as true outcasts. I know someone will argue about this with Kushina, but children picking on each other are something that happens to everyone. It has happened to me, but I was not an outcast. I also don’t recall Minato having other crushes after him, but that is not to say he didn’t have any. Imagine if Kishi did a true Minato Gaiden and there is a Hinat like character that had a crush on Minato? (I smell fanfiction.)
Fast forward to Naruto and Sakura and their childhoods were different. Naruto was seen as an outcast and Sakura was picked on for her forehead. (However, the outcast stuff seems to only build the walls, not affect why Naruto and Sakura are not together.) Unlike Kushina, Sakura had a crush on someone else, but they did see the Naruto/Minato the same way: as a goof ball. Minato proved he cared about her by complimenting on her hair and saving her, that’s when she first had feelings for him. Naruto has saved Sakura many times and has complimented on Sakura’s forehead. The difference is Naruto was posed as Sasuke.
Funny how the one thing that keeps Naruto and Sakura a part is Sasuke: an element that MinatoxKushina did not have to face as far as it has been told. This major difference is the reason why it has not been as easy for NaruSaku to happen as it was MinatoxKushina. So what needs to happen is that Sasuke needs to be dealt with.

This is another reason why NaruSaku is canon in my eyes. If Sasuke never existed, NaruSaku would have been canon a long time ago. Just think about this. How easy would it have been for Sakura to notice Naruto if Sasuke never existed? Sasuke is a rival bear in mind and rivals are not just in rivals of power and accomplishments. Sometimes they could be rivals in love. We also know that Sasuke was put in because one of Kishi’s editors suggested it. So he was not part of the original plan and Hinata was just a village girl. So, why the changes? It makes the story more interesting.

That’s all. Sorry I don’t have anything to put down to be more inspiring, but this is me looking at the manga in a different view.

I was blindfolded, but now I'm seeing
My mind was closing, now I'm believing
I finally know just what it means to let someone in
To see the side of me that no one does or ever will
So if you're ever lost and find yourself all alone
I'd search forever just to bring you home,
Here and now this I vow.

1st bolded -> Naruto is dull compared to a lot of heroes, i say this because he does not have a purpose other than "protect his friends" or "save Sasuke.
His life is totally "protect your friends" motto.
About the rest, Naruto likes to resolver other's people problems but he does let anyone to try to help him on his problems he just does not acknowledge his friends strenght, he may say "you're strong" but when the thing gets real it's another story.

2rd bolded -> She loves Sasuke and think it was pretty clear, Naruto was right ( but he should not have said that she was lying he was dumb and immature), Sakura did not believe on the reports of the ninjas she wanted to see Sasuke by herself and then made a decision to kill him if it were true.
She was desperate and wanted to do something for him and come with the confession, she was honest because she knew she was capable of loving him someday because of the great man he is, but she simply does not love him now, and the result of this comes to 540.
Those memories come back when he said about "Sakura loves Sasuke", he witnessed all those moments and made him think again, that Sasuke was hurting Sakura and he had to do something about it, time was passing and he was still struck on trying to resolve all the things by himself, until Gaara came and did the final speech.
Sai even say we cant just rely on you all the time, Sai told to Naruto that it's unfair he trying to make Sakura rely on him when it comes to Sasuke.

What Hinata is unable to reach that level is because Naruto loves Sakura, he simply does not have any romantic interest on her or (sexually), i challenge you to bring me a panel of Naruto talking about Hinata's physical attributes but about Sakura we have a lot.

3rd bolded -> Sasuke is not the reason to make then together or ties them, Naruto said "i'll only confess to her when i bring Sasuke back" but it's his mentally, i doubt that he would confess someday, he was close minded that Sakura loves Sasuke and she cant love him, every time that Sakura express affection for him he gets surprised, that Sakura's confession "broke" his mentalilty of a Sakura that only thinks about Sasuke and nothing else, and this made him realize that for her, he is more important than Sasuke.

4rd bolded -> Here we go again before 615 we all were saying NaruSaku is 99% only to get depressed on one chapter.

"NaruSaku would have been canon a long time ago."
RTN proves the contrary.
Looking at his parents speech Naruto was having a bad time to proving himself to "Sakura".

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 19 January 2013 - 07:17 PM.

[FoolishYoungling]

Wow, never looked at the confession that way. Good job James!

[xxRomanceGirlxx]

I absolutely love the analysis you did on Naruto's character. It's funny. For the longest time, I viewed Naruto as a sort of simplistic character. His ideals and goals are straightforward, he was blindly optmistic and idealistic. It's easy to see him as a character that was easy to understand and pretty open. Surprisingly, he's not. I didn't realize fully the complexities of Naruto (despite him being my favorite character) until you covered it all through your massive wall of text. I know it's just your opinion but it's sound and makes a lot of sense. I really want other Naruto fans to see this but I don't think it'd get very far because the pairing-biased wouldn't really like hearing it. NaruHina fans would flip with this post.

I think I already realized to an extent Naruto's walls. You just elaborated much more deeply and covered most of the stuff I hadn't really thought over yet until I read this post. Great job, I have to say! When I first started to realize Naruto put up walls, it was after watching/reading Sakura's confession to Naruto. Coupled with the promise, of course. My line of thinking was pretty much that Naruto had some form of mental wall around himself since the promise regarding Sakura. It was that he just can't allow himself to believe even for a second that she loves him because he's so insecure. Naruto's afraid of taking the chance and being wrong. It would hurt him far too much, like it did during the Promise. I think that was when I realized Naruto's "wall". It's truly his defense mechanism. I feel so bad for him ever since. That can't be easy and it's such a sad way of thinking. Sakura really does need to "break" that wall. I crave for Kishi to do another argument between Naruto and Sakura just so that wall can finally crack. So Naruto can actually stop being so defensive and closed off. Let himself be happy. Seeing him always hiding his own emotional vulnerability behind a cheerful mask makes me so upset. Now that I know why it's there.

I also realized this when re-watching Sakura's confession to Sasuke. She was crying and expressed her distress that Sasuke never told her anything or opened up like she always want him to so she could help/be closer with him. Naruto does the exact same thing Sasuke does. They're vastly different in motivations and what default they fall under but it's still true. Naruto uses his mask and mental wall because he doesn't want to worry Sakura or worry others for that matter. That's the selfless side talking. The other is that because of his terrible childhood, it's hard for him to open up because he's afraid of rejection. I can see how terribly upset Sakura would be with this. She constantly tries to get him to open up and talk to her about his real feelings but he shuts her out. Basically, she's trying to help him and get closer just like she did with Sasuke. After her failure with Sasuke, there's no way Sakura could deal with failing with Naruto too. That's the last thing she wants. And Sakura's a stubborn girl, too. Funny how Naruto continues to be entirely unaware of how he doesn't open up and how upset it makes Sakura in the process.

Point is: Naruto and Sakura really need to talk about all of this. It's almost urgent.

[James S Cassidy]

Thanks everyone

Indeed, RomanG.

Naruto's nindo and goals are straight forward, but his own person is very complex. It's almost like he is hiding behind his nindo. I always find it so weird, and I mentioned this in the 616 thread, how everyone always pays attention to Hinata and Sakura, but never want to look at Naruto as well. Some tend to think that it is Hinata and Sakura that have to make a move on Naruto for a pairing to be canon. While it is true in the beginning, now it is not. They have already made their move and decided what they wanted. Now I am just looking at Naruto.

I know I keep bringing it up, but 573 was still such a great impact on me because it shows their inner thoughts of what they want with Naruto. Even Sakura gave her two cents and I think it plays very significant. She made her choice. Now all that is left is for Naruto to accept the opportunity of life and pick the route to which I have no doubt he will pick Sakura.

All Sakura really needs to do is push him out of that shell he puts himself in.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 20 January 2013 - 04:35 AM.

[xxRomanceGirlxx]

Thanks everyone

Indeed, RomanG.

Naruto's nindo and goals are straight forward, but his own person is very complex. It's almost like he is hiding behind his nindo. I always find it so weird, and I mentioned this in the 616 thread, how everyone always pays attention to Hinata and Sakura, but never want to look at Naruto as well. Some tend to think that it is Hinata and Sakura that have to make a move on Naruto for a pairing to be canon. While it is true in the beginning, now it is not. They have already made their move and decided what they wanted. Now I am just looking at Naruto.

I know I keep bringing it up, but 573 was still such a great impact on me because it shows their inner thoughts of what they want with Naruto. Even Sakura gave her two cents and I think it plays very significant. She made her choice. Now all that is left is for Naruto to accept the opportunity of life and pick the route to which I have no doubt he will pick Sakura.

All Sakura really needs to do is push him out of that shell he puts himself in.

I've often wondered myself lately if Naruto is really as confident as he makes himself out to be. I know he's confident in his own abilities and he's confident in becoming Hokage. But I don't know if he's confident in winning Sakura's heart or saving Sasuke. Actually, I dare to argue he isn't but it's his determination and refusal to give up that keeps him going. It's like "I know the odds are against me, but I won't know unless I try" type of thing. Oddly, like Sakura is with her emotions, Naruto's an uneven form of insecurity/confidence. Weird. I think Sakura to some extent is a factor. She needs to be sure that she's in love with Naruto so she can be with him. During her confession, she wasn't but she did make it clear Naruto's more important than Sasuke so technically she did chose. All that's left to her is to realize she fell in love with him.

573 was very significant. I know some think I'm looking too much into what was an entirely platonic thought from Sakura (Which it was. She's not like Hinata who thinks about love during a war. Maybe 12-year old Sakura), but I can't help always finding her wording very intriguing. "Next time, no matter what you say, we will be together." It might be possible foreshadowing that she will be in a relationship with Naruto soon, literally. Not just she won't let him do this alone or shut her and everyone out (which was obviously what she meant). The "We will be together" part always jumps out at me. Why not "We're doing this together?" What are you trying to say with this, Kishi?

No doubt, the ball is in Naruto's court. Hinata's now open with her affection, she's very easy to get with. But with Sakura, he's loved her forever. Not even her feelings for Sasuke has changed it. Maybe I'm weird, but I so want to see another NS argument about Naruto always trying to do things on his own and hiding his true feelings. He'd probably get pissed with her again like he did during the confession, but only because she keeps trying to get him out of his element. To be honest, Naruto needs that. Sakura's tired of him always thinking of everyone but himself and protecting his own emotions from her (Which, by it's merit, is probably what is upsetting Sakura. She doesn't want him hiding himself from her. Just like Sasuke does with everyone). Guess to put it bluntly, Sakura's getting sick of his kitten.

Edited by xxRomanceGirlxx, 20 January 2013 - 06:28 AM.

[James S Cassidy]

I've often wondered myself lately if Naruto is really as confident as he makes himself out to be. I know he's confident in his own abilities and he's confident in becoming Hokage. But I don't know if he's confident in winning Sakura's heart or saving Sasuke. Actually, I dare to argue he isn't but it's his determination and refusal to give up that keeps him going. It's like "I know the odds are against me, but I won't know unless I try" type of thing. Oddly, like Sakura is with her emotions, Naruto's an uneven form of insecurity/confidence. Weird. I think Sakura to some extent is a factor. She needs to be sure that she's in love with Naruto so she can be with him. During her confession, she wasn't but she did make it clear Naruto's more important than Sasuke so technically she did chose. All that's left to her is to realize she fell in love with him.

I find Naruto's confidence iffy by this point. I believe he even said so himself that he wasn't strong enough to save him, but I am not sure if he means physical strength wise or emotion-wise. If you think in terms of emotion, then yes he can't bring Sasuke back. Not as he is now. The fact that Naruto can still be broken so easily is deterring. The problem is Naruto has no confidence in his own abilities of understanding. Yeah he never gives up, but hasn't tackled his own fears.

At the waterfall, he conquered his hatred. Sasuke, to him, is a new test to conquer his fears of self destruction. The more you think about the more complex it gets. The fact that he always compares himself to Sasuke, even as far to say that they could have switched places, is a good hint to this. So facing is not just about facing down his friend and rival, but facing himself and his own fears. Even for Sakura, I think. That's how I truly see this. Sasuke could still die in the end, but saving his soul from darkness means that Naruto can conquer even the most darkest and most corrupted hearts. (Arguably since Obito's will)

I am always reminded of Superman when I think of it. When his adopted father died, Superman went into a depression thinking that he couldn't save everyone...even with all his powers. He soon learned that failure is how we grow and how we judge ourselves. If we fail, we get back up and learn from it. Naruto shares a similar concept except I think Naruto has yet to realize what true failure is. Neji's death could have been good, but...I don't know. Something doesn't feel like it has clicked yet.

This goes along with several posts made that Naruto has not really...failed yet on that grand of a scale. He has felt the pain of lose, but never the pain of failing. That's why I think Sasuke needs to die. Can he face failure and still be the hero he needs to be? I know he has a never give up attitude, but can he keep this idealism when he loses? That is the true test to life. Able to to face failure and keep going.

573 was very significant. I know some think I'm looking too much into what was an entirely platonic thought from Sakura (Which it was. She's not like Hinata who thinks about love during a war. Maybe 12-year old Sakura), but I can't help always finding her wording very intriguing. "Next time, no matter what you say, we will be together." It might be possible foreshadowing that she will be in a relationship with Naruto soon, literally. Not just she won't let him do this alone or shut her and everyone out (which was obviously what she meant). The "We will be together" part always jumps out at me. Why not "We're doing this together?" What are you trying to say with this, Kishi?

I didn't see it as platonic, but this is a matter of opinion. (From personal opinion, many people express love in different ways.)

However, I will say that out of the many things Kishi could have made Sakura say, he has her make that kind of statement. The simple act of having Kishi do that puts questions forward and wonder intent. I think it is a lot more significant than it was really taken for and possibly a little taste of what is to come.

Going back to personal gripes, I am a little tired of some fans brushing off everything Sakura says as platonic, but everything Hinata says is general romance. I don't see why something Hinata says couldn't be also platonic or what Sakura says is romantic. I guess I want to believe there is something more there. That IMHO, Sakura is actually being romantic in her own way and not in the "childish gushy lovey-dovey" that Hinata portrays. It's just not Sakura's style.

No doubt, the ball is in Naruto's court. Hinata's now open with her affection, she's very easy to get with. But with Sakura, he's loved her forever. Not even her feelings for Sasuke has changed it. Maybe I'm weird, but I so want to see another NS argument about Naruto always trying to do things on his own and hiding his true feelings. He'd probably get pissed with her again like he did during the confession, but only because she keeps trying to get him out of his element. To be honest, Naruto needs that. Sakura's tired of him always thinking of everyone but himself and protecting his own emotions from her (Which, by it's merit, is probably what is upsetting Sakura. She doesn't want him hiding himself from her. Just like Sasuke does with everyone). Guess to put it bluntly, Sakura's getting sick of his kitten.

Hey, if you're weird I am even weirder, but you know what? I am proud to be weird. Makes me different. Makes me special.

Naruto needs that kind of pushing, you're right. Everyone tells me that is is okay to go after things that make me happy and I think that is what Sakura is trying to do as well. Sakura is trying to show Naruto what he taught her in Part 1. Don't be afraid to follow your dreams and be happy. Yeah life doesn't always go the way you plan, but sometimes you can get something even better out of it.

This is even a good lesson for being a great Hokage. How can you take are of a village if you can't even take care of yourself first?

Another Sakura = Kushina parallel? I think so.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 20 January 2013 - 11:21 AM.

[Codus N]

I am always reminded of Superman when I think of it. When his adopted father died, Superman went into a depression thinking that he couldn't save everyone...even with all his powers. He soon learned that failure is how we grow and how we judge ourselves. If we fail, we get back up and learn from it. Naruto shares a similar concept except I think Naruto has yet to realize what true failure is. Neji's death could have been good, but...I don't know. Something doesn't feel like it has clicked yet.

This goes along with several posts made that Naruto has not really...failed yet on that grand of a scale. He has felt the pain of lose, but never the pain of failing. That's why I think Sasuke needs to die. Can he face failure and still be the hero he needs to be? I know he has a never give up attitude, but can he keep this idealism when he loses? That is the true test to life. Able to to face failure and keep going.

This is also something I posted a while back. But sadly it got buried deep somewhere in this forum . You're very much right about this, James. Some people have debated whether or not Naruto is ready to become Hokage now. Honestly, I think he's close to it. But definitely not ready yet. Being a leader is more than knowing about how to lead, it's also about knowing how to rise from failures. Naruto has learned the weight of a Hokage (sort of) as of recently. But like you, I don't think he quite gets it yet. He hasn't truly learned what it feels like to have failed.

I think, that if I had to put it, Naruto doesn't have any responsibility. Naruto needs to be given some sort of responsibility to an extent and fail (or nearly fail). Only then, will he learn the weight of a Hokage. If you consider this, then Shikamaru is more than ready to be Hokage. Shikamaru has been given various important responsibilities over the course of the series. The Sasuke Retrieval mission was his first failure, not to mention he almost lost his subordinates in the course of it. That mission finally gave Shikamaru the lesson what it means to bear the weight of a leader. I'm sure that Shikamaru has already lost several men under his command (his division's half). But thanks to that Sasuke mission, he's learned that there will be failures. But the most important thing is how to improve himself.

This is what I think Naruto seriously lacks.

Also, remember that it was Temari who also chewed him out about it. It was thanks to her and Shikaku's words that Shikamaru learned the most valuable lesson he could ever get. Aside from learning what the "King"is.

I'm actually hoping the above gets a reprise with NS.

P.S.: Regarding your Superman post, I think this is the reason why Supes is considered the leader of the Justice League. Batman is also quite similar, but unlike Supes, he chooses to bury his failures in the past.

[James S Cassidy]

This is also something I posted a while back. But sadly it got buried deep somewhere in this forum . You're very much right about this, James. Some people have debated whether or not Naruto is ready to become Hokage now. Honestly, I think he's close to it. But definitely not ready yet. Being a leader is more than knowing about how to lead, it's also about knowing how to rise from failures. Naruto has learned the weight of a Hokage (sort of) as of recently. But like you, I don't think he quite gets it yet. He hasn't truly learned what it feels like to have failed.

I think, that if I had to put it, Naruto doesn't have any responsibility. Naruto needs to be given some sort of responsibility to an extent and fail (or nearly fail). Only then, will he learn the weight of a Hokage. If you consider this, then Shikamaru is more than ready to be Hokage. Shikamaru has been given various important responsibilities over the course of the series. The Sasuke Retrieval mission was his first failure, not to mention he almost lost his subordinates in the course of it. That mission finally gave Shikamaru the lesson what it means to bear the weight of a leader. I'm sure that Shikamaru has already lost several men under his command (his division's half). But thanks to that Sasuke mission, he's learned that there will be failures. But the most important thing is how to improve himself.

This is what I think Naruto seriously lacks.

Also, remember that it was Temari who also chewed him out about it. It was thanks to her and Shikaku's words that Shikamaru learned the most valuable lesson he could ever get. Aside from learning what the "King"is.

Yeah. Naruto...It is so hard to describe. He keeps wanting to face the world on his own, but then drops everything when even one bad thing happens, then it take someone else to snap him out of it. It is has become a bad habit for Naruto to constantly be this bi-polar depressant who says he won't give up, yet nearly almost does when some thing bad happens that he couldn't control. Chapter 615 is basically a clear cut example and as stated many of times, probably the worst written side-plot. It makes Naruto look whiny. "My friend Neji died, I can't take it." Well how many other people have died in this war? How many others sacrificed themselves for your sake and the sake of others and you felt nothing? Naruto gives this notion of like everyone is important, but when no names die, he disregards it.

Superman would mostly put everything else above himself, but even when some died that didn't make him give up. It just made him realize how important his dream really was.

I understand Naruto is fallible and it's great that he is. Even the best heroes can have the worst moments, but some scenes are just...so far out there that sometimes it makes me question Naruto as the hero. I don't know if I want to blame Naruto's character choice or the writer's/editor's decision to weaken his resolve in order to give another character spotlight. It's like Superman giving up on hope just so Booster Gold could be better than Superman for one moment. That's great, but no one really cares about Booster Gold and you end up demeaning Superman who is supposed to be that kind of hero that never quits.

I think this is why the Pain Arc was so good in our eyes. It was a moment where Naruto, despite many dying, still was able to stand up to Pein and not lose hope being that Superman character.

615 is like...a poor version of it with instead Neji died in front of him.

P.S.: Regarding your Superman post, I think this is the reason why Supes is considered the leader of the Justice League. Batman is also quite similar, but unlike Supes, he chooses to bury his failures in the past.

I don't think it is about burying your past so much as "accepting it." Superman can't change who he is or what he is, but he learns to accept it and become the hero he needs to be. The hero people eventually look up to.

Even when times are tough, he still goes for it head on. Some one here has a Superman sig of him saying "We have no powers, there is about a million of them, and a little boy in there wants us to save the day....Let's go." That is what I want to see from Naruto. That moments of badassness where he doesn't are whether he has powers or not. He is going to fight till he can save the day.

That's what I love about Superman myself. No matter what problem occurs or what bad happens, it doesn't stop him from being hat hero.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 20 January 2013 - 02:54 PM.

[Chatte]

Btw, Jake, the best explanation for your quote and actually a thing that enforces your theory, it's this quote, Naruto about Sakura:
"I stayed away from sadness and pain ... I wanted to protect that smiling face".

I find it very relevant, to be honest.

[xxRomanceGirlxx]

I find Naruto's confidence iffy by this point. I believe he even said so himself that he wasn't strong enough to save him, but I am not sure if he means physical strength wise or emotion-wise. If you think in terms of emotion, then yes he can't bring Sasuke back. Not as he is now. The fact that Naruto can still be broken so easily is deterring. The problem is Naruto has no confidence in his own abilities of understanding. Yeah he never gives up, but hasn't tackled his own fears.

At the waterfall, he conquered his hatred. Sasuke, to him, is a new test to conquer his fears of self destruction. The more you think about the more complex it gets. The fact that he always compares himself to Sasuke, even as far to say that they could have switched places, is a good hint to this. So facing is not just about facing down his friend and rival, but facing himself and his own fears. Even for Sakura, I think. That's how I truly see this. Sasuke could still die in the end, but saving his soul from darkness means that Naruto can conquer even the most darkest and most corrupted hearts. (Arguably since Obito's will)

I am always reminded of Superman when I think of it. When his adopted father died, Superman went into a depression thinking that he couldn't save everyone...even with all his powers. He soon learned that failure is how we grow and how we judge ourselves. If we fail, we get back up and learn from it. Naruto shares a similar concept except I think Naruto has yet to realize what true failure is. Neji's death could have been good, but...I don't know. Something doesn't feel like it has clicked yet.

This goes along with several posts made that Naruto has not really...failed yet on that grand of a scale. He has felt the pain of lose, but never the pain of failing. That's why I think Sasuke needs to die. Can he face failure and still be the hero he needs to be? I know he has a never give up attitude, but can he keep this idealism when he loses? That is the true test to life. Able to to face failure and keep going.

Naruto's confidence has been up and down. Ever since Part 1 ended, the eternally over-confident smart ass is not nearly as frequent as it once was. Kinda makes me sad, actually. Part Two, as his obstacles continue to grow, you see Naruto begin to doubt himself more and more. While realistic, it's bothers me a little. I'm at the point where I sometimes feel like Naruto's boastful confidence is usually overcompensating for his lack of confidence. To some extent, it has always been this way but now ... it's just getting more obvious and frequent. I guess this is just proof that Naruto's growing up. Naruto is certainly no Hinata. He's much more determined and confident than she ever will be. But still, he seems to consistently protect his emotions by boastfulness, almost like he's afraid of showing weakness. It reflects heavily in his actions and thoughts lately. Again, it really does make me sad. That's very true. Naruto hates giving up and it's always the last thing he ever wants to do. As 615 proved to us, this truly is is way of overcompensation for insecurity.

I remember when I first saw the waterfall scene, I was disappointed. It was great confrontation and seeing Dark Naruto's hatred for the village made a lot of sense, but I couldn't help feeling somewhat upset. I was just thinking, "Naruto's overcome his hatred? That's great. But that means he's like a perfect character now. He's less flawed." I really like flawed characters so you could understand my way of thinking. However, my assumption eventually disappeared as I saw his reaction to the war. Naruto was trying to solve absolutely everything on his own, unrealistically promising himself he won't let anyone else die. It was then I saw that he did still have problems. His flaws still aren't resolved. 615 even made it shockingly more obvious to me. Sasuke & Obito are both written by Kishi as "The Road not Taken." Naruto acknowledges Sasuke's path, but has no idea about Obito. No idea how close he actually is to his greatest enemy. Obito knows. I actually want to see Obito tell Naruto his story, including Rin, Kakashi, his struggles ... just to see how Naruto would react to it. Imagining his shocked, disturbed expression is such good drama. To think something like "No way ... There's no way I could become something like this monster ..." No doubt, Naruto would by horrifed and scared by this revelation. Sasuke & Obito really are his largest obstacles right now. It's pretty much overcoming his own insecurities and fears in physical form. Maybe that's actually the whole purpose of both their characters to begin with.

I don't often compare Naruto to Superman, honestly. I guess it's because their default personalities are so different (Superman: "mild-mannered, quiet, serious, modest." Naruto: "cheerful, talkative, hot-headed, flippant."). However, I had recognized three very surprising characteristics they share. They both have such blind optimism/idealism and always seem to want to see the best in people. It's actually one of their fatal flaws. Clark's initial relationship with Lex Luther always vividly reminded me of Naruto's relationship with Sasuke. Both tried so hard to see if Lex and Sasuke to have some shred of good still in them so they could change, almost purposely ignoring their dark and twisted qualities. The difference is: Clark gave up, but never stopped wondering if he had done things differently, Lex wouldn't have fell off the deep end. He still blamed himself for his failure with his former best friend. Naruto hasn't give up yet and seems to have no intention to. Both of them also always seem to hide their true feelings by lying and masking them with their defaults (Clark: serious. Naruto: over-cheerful). Naruto hasn't truly discovered the impact of failure or true despair. 615 showed some example of it but I have a sneaking suspicion it's not that last we'll see of it.

615 was really shocking, I can't even cover it in that one word. Did any of us honestly expect Naruto to fall in despair and hopelesness that easily? No. We expected him to be furious and tell Obito to shut up, he won't let it happen again. That's the Naruto we know. That's the Naruto we saw in the Pain Arc. Instead, we see his determination and optimism faltering. So much so that Hinata (the character with the lowest amount of confidence and weakest resolve) was the one to bring it back. None of us up until this point were fully aware of how fragile and doubtful Naruto's ego really was. None. Naruto's emotional wall masked his true feelings so well, he fooled everyone, even the audience. Whatever 615 is, I will say this. Out of all the chapters Kishi had put out for us, this was one of the most unexpected turn of events I had ever seen. As for what you said about Sasuke, I admit I don't want Sasuke to die. I like Sasuke for some god-forsaken reason (I really have no idea why he's one of my favorite characters. So really, don't even ask) and I love the Team 7 bond even more. Naruto would definitely grow from Sasuke dying, but the problem is ... I'm worried about him eternally feeling like a failure because he couldn't save his friend enough so he could live. Look at how he reacted to Neji! Sasuke dying ... I'm just so ridiculously worried by Naruto's frame of mind afterwards, it's not even funny.

I didn't see it as platonic, but this is a matter of opinion. (From personal opinion, many people express love in different ways.)

However, I will say that out of the many things Kishi could have made Sakura say, he has her make that kind of statement. The simple act of having Kishi do that puts questions forward and wonder intent. I think it is a lot more significant than it was really taken for and possibly a little taste of what is to come.

Going back to personal gripes, I am a little tired of some fans brushing off everything Sakura says as platonic, but everything Hinata says is general romance. I don't see why something Hinata says couldn't be also platonic or what Sakura says is romantic. I guess I want to believe there is something more there. That IMHO, Sakura is actually being romantic in her own way and not in the "childish gushy lovey-dovey" that Hinata portrays. It's just not Sakura's style.

My line of thinking is pretty much that it implies foreshadowing of romantic intent. It's wording was, no matter how you slice it, definitely implying something. I just don't believe Sakura's figured out she loves Naruto yet so the main meaning behind it was that she wasn't going to let him do stuff alone and shut her and everyone else out of his problems. It's platonic dedication with foreshadowing of romance. That's what I meant.

Agreed. That wording was very unique indeed. I remember I was surprised at the "We will be together!" quote because it seemed to mean romance. Until Sakura added the platonic words "Not just me ... but ... everyone." However, I sense subtle romantic undertones in it, leading me to the "romance foreshadowing" conclusion. It doesn't seem like much at all to most of the fanbase. Some even saw it as the final stake in NaruSaku, apparently confirming Sakura's feelings for Naruto truly are platonic.

Ugh, you have no idea how much I agree on that. To show an example, let's look at a Naruto fan: " Y'know ... if you compare Sakura's words to Hinata, doesn't it seem ... platonic?" --Sawyer7mage, YT review Ch. 573. Funny 'cause he's a NaruHina fan. It's very annoying with this biasness in the fandom. Sakura's love for Sasuke was confirmed rather negatively in 540 and so many automatically assume this confirmed Naruto's feelings for Sakura are not returned. One-sided, apparently. Yet if you say differently ... "Naruto loves Sakura and Hinata's feelings are one-sided", you get NaruHina fans jumping at your throat claiming "Naruto's feelings for Hinata aren't confirmed! And he has't reaffirmed his love for Sakura in over 100 chapters! You can't say that." Truthfully, it's the same for Sakura's feelings for Naruto. It was never confirmed she didn't love Naruto too. It's such a double standard in the fandom and the only reason it happens is because they hate Sakura or support Hinata or both. Why is it suddenly different if we're taking about Hinata and saying he doesn't love her? The root of this is nine times out of ten always because of Hinata's popularity. It's nothing more, nothing less. You have no idea how many times I almost wish Hinata never existed in the manga. Her fanbase never wants to allows themselves to possibily even consider that Hinata is not the heroine, her feelings are going nowhere, and Naruto will never love her. I feel like bashing my head against a wall sometimes.

Hey, if you're weird I am even weirder, but you know what? I am proud to be weird. Makes me different. Makes me special.

Naruto needs that kind of pushing, you're right. Everyone tells me that is is okay to go after things that make me happy and I think that is what Sakura is trying to do as well. Sakura is trying to show Naruto what he taught her in Part 1. Don't be afraid to follow your dreams and be happy. Yeah life doesn't always go the way you plan, but sometimes you can get something even better out of it.

This is even a good lesson for being a great Hokage. How can you take are of a village if you can't even take care of yourself first?

Another Sakura = Kushina parallel? I think so.

It's okay to be weird. We'll be weird together!

Someone needs to do it soon. Hinata clearly won't be able to do it. She cares far too much about Naruto's feelings and upsetting him. As you once said yourself, Hinata would only encourage the habit and coddle him. Basically, he would never learn and actually be "out of his shell." Sakura on the other hand, is very much the "tough love" approach. She would force him to open up and talk with her because that's the stubborn, direct person she is. Waiting for him to "come around" isn't an option to her. 'Cause she knows it would never happen. Sakura truly needs to be the only to teach him happiness. Naruto's matyr complex is a terrible strain on anyone to have, even him.

Everytime I think about Sakura breaking his "wall", I remember her confession to him. "Give up on rescuing Sasuke! Stop risking your life to bring him back! I'm tired of you putting yourself in danger like that! Think about yourself for a change!" -Sakura Haruno. Easily one of my favorite quotes she has ever said before. I loved how forward and blunt she was to him right there. No matter what people say about the confession, her anger was real. Her words right there were honest. She truly felt that way. And what upsets me the most is how Naruto reacted to it. You could see him be surprised and briefly think over what she was saying, looking guilty. Then immediately he got angry and stubborn again, saying "That sounds like an excuse to me." Everytime I see that now, I feel like slapping him for implying she didn't mean that. She did. How could Naruto know her so well yet not know her at all? He was being so rude and immature then, it's terrible. So what if she was pushing him out of his comfort zone? So what if she was getting dangerously close to his love for her and actually forcing him to take that chance and admit how he feels? So what if she was saying he was risking too much and believing Sasuke couldn't be saved? Sakura did it for him. Naruto realized that to some extent thanks to Sai, but not completely. There is no way Sakura is gonna drop this subject. Another NS argument seems very possible because of Naruto's stubbornness.

I see the Sakura/Kushina parallel too. Especially since Itachi said that it was because Minato had Kushina that helped him become Hokage. Well, Naruto has Sakura. She just needs to push him the right way.

Edited by xxRomanceGirlxx, 21 January 2013 - 05:54 AM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Wonderful posts I see here. Just excellent.

Anyone notices that Hinata never brought up the idea of him being a Hokage. Only the will of never giving up. They are different.

[James S Cassidy]

Wow, you're good, RomanG XD

Naruto's confidence has been up and down. Ever since Part 1 ended, the eternally over-confident smart ass is not nearly as frequent as it once was. Kinda makes me sad, actually. Part Two, as his obstacles continue to grow, you see Naruto begin to doubt himself more and more. While realistic, it's bothers me a little. I'm at the point where I sometimes feel like Naruto's boastful confidence is usually overcompensating for his lack of confidence. To some extent, it has always been this way but now ... it's just getting more obvious and frequent. I guess this is just proof that Naruto's growing up. Naruto is certainly no Hinata. He's much more determined and confident than she ever will be. But still, he seems to consistently protect his emotions by boastfulness, almost like he's afraid of showing weakness. It reflects heavily in his actions and thoughts lately. Again, it really does make me sad. That's very true. Naruto hates giving up and it's always the last thing he ever wants to do. As 615 proved to us, this truly is is way of overcompensation for insecurity.

Me too. I want to see Naruto as this hero everyone looks up to. I want him to be this person who shows everyone that there is hope no matter what the cost. Unfortunately, he keeps thinking that the only way to live is to die for you beliefs. As I said, it is so easy to die for what you believe. Not so easily to live for them.

....Maybe that's actually the whole purpose of both their characters to begin with.

Maybe. I wouldn't put it past Kishi to do it.

I don't often compare Naruto to Superman, honestly. I guess it's because their default personalities are so different (Superman: "mild-mannered, quiet, serious, modest." Naruto: "cheerful, talkative, hot-headed, flippant."). However, I had recognized three very surprising characteristics they share. They both have such blind optimism/idealism and always seem to want to see the best in people. It's actually one of their fatal flaws. Clark's initial relationship with Lex Luther always vividly reminded me of Naruto's relationship with Sasuke. Both tried so hard to see if Lex and Sasuke to have some shred of good still in them so they could change, almost purposely ignoring their dark and twisted qualities. The difference is: Clark gave up, but never stopped wondering if he had done things differently, Lex wouldn't have fell off the deep end. He still blamed himself for his failure with his former best friend. Naruto hasn't give up yet and seems to have no intention to. Both of them also always seem to hide their true feelings by lying and masking them with their defaults (Clark: serious. Naruto: over-cheerful). Naruto hasn't truly discovered the impact of failure or true despair. 615 showed some example of it but I have a sneaking suspicion it's not that last we'll see of it.

True, Superman and Naruto are different in there personalities, but I was just showing this to compare how different heroes behave. I have expected Naruto to be like Superman in times of problems with him staying strong and facing problems head on. Superman did have problems of not accepting things and because of this it made him weaker with mental blocks. Sort of like how Naruto is now. Superman went on a long journey to find himself. I expected Naruto to be something similar, but he is still unable to accept himself. He is still unable to accept that he is fallible and he won't succeed every time.

Naruto would definitely grow from Sasuke dying, but the problem is ... I'm worried about him eternally feeling like a failure because he couldn't save his friend enough so he could live. Look at how he reacted to Neji! Sasuke dying ... I'm just so ridiculously worried by Naruto's frame of mind afterwards, it's not even funny.

I think that is where Sakura comes in. We all want her to be heroine. Well, what is the best way to save a hero? From himself.

My line of thinking is pretty much that it implies foreshadowing of romantic intent. It's wording was, no matter how you slice it, definitely implying something. I just don't believe Sakura's figured out she loves Naruto yet so the main meaning behind it was that she wasn't going to let him do stuff alone and shut her and everyone else out of his problems. It's platonic dedication with foreshadowing of romance. That's what I meant.

Agreed. That wording was very unique indeed. I remember I was surprised at the "We will be together!" quote because it seemed to mean romance. Until Sakura added the platonic words "Not just me ... but ... everyone." However, I sense subtle romantic undertones in it, leading me to the "romance foreshadowing" conclusion. It doesn't seem like much at all to most of the fanbase. Some even saw it as the final stake in NaruSaku, apparently confirming Sakura's feelings for Naruto truly are platonic.

*smiles and hands a piece of paper that says:*

Kishimoto:
On the contrary.... I felt like depicting an honest girl, with a surprisingly stubborn impression.
So... she became such a character, but... well... from here on, maybe I should draw her showing a bit more spirit.
I figured I had placed her in a heroin-like situation
But from the readers I was told harshly that she wasn't heroin-ish at all
Perhaps I should show depict her a bit more like a heroin
Because you say 'Hinata Hinata,' I say 'She's not Hinata'

Let's see if what I am seeing is something that plays an importance later on.

Someone needs to do it soon. Hinata clearly won't be able to do it. She cares far too much about Naruto's feelings and upsetting him. As you once said yourself, Hinata would only encourage the habit and coddle him. Basically, he would never learn and actually be "out of his shell." Sakura on the other hand, is very much the "tough love" approach. She would force him to open up and talk with her because that's the stubborn, direct person she is. Waiting for him to "come around" isn't an option to her. 'Cause she knows it would never happen. Sakura truly needs to be the only to teach him happiness. Naruto's matyr complex is a terrible strain on anyone to have, even him.

Exactly. Hinata just enforces Naruto behavior and keeps saying to him "Remember your nindo" meanwhile Sakura come off as "Naruto, your nindo is what is killing you. It's not perfect and if you keep following those ideals you're going to wind up hurt or worse."

Everytime I think about Sakura breaking his "wall", I remember her confession to him. "Give up on rescuing Sasuke! Stop risking your life to bring him back! I'm tired of you putting yourself in danger like that! Think about yourself for a change!" -Sakura Haruno. Easily one of my favorite quotes she has ever said before. I loved how forward and blunt she was to him right there. No matter what people say about the confession, her anger was real. Her words right there were honest. She truly felt that way. And what upsets me the most is how Naruto reacted to it. You could see him be surprised and briefly think over what she was saying, looking guilty. Then immediately he got angry and stubborn again, saying "That sounds like an excuse to me." Everytime I see that now, I feel like slapping him for implying she didn't mean that. She did. How could Naruto know her so well yet not know her at all? He was being so rude and immature then, it's terrible. So what if she was pushing him out of his comfort zone? So what if she was getting dangerously close to his love for her and actually forcing him to take that chance and admit how he feels? So what if she was saying he was risking too much and believing Sasuke couldn't be saved? Sakura did it for him. Naruto realized that to some extent thanks to Sai, but not completely. There is no way Sakura is gonna drop this subject. Another NS argument seems very possible because of Naruto's stubbornness.

Sometimes you have to push people for them to see the truth. It's not always pretty, but it is sometimes necessary and Yes I agree that I have also been disappointed in Naruto from that point on. He seems to always fall back on his nindo as his excuse to keep doing what he is doing. Naruto is stupid. Not because he doesn't get with Sakura or Hinata, but because he refuses to see any thing beyond what he wants to see. He refuses to accept the outcomes he cannot control and claim he can change them. While it is great to not give up, there are just some things you cannot control. The moment you accept that is the moment you an be open to the world.

Obito couldn't accept Rin dying and look what is happening now?
Orochimaro couldn't accept death
Sasuke can't accept that his brother wanted him to rebuild the clan in a better light, not lead it to darkness.

I see the Sakura/Kushina parallel too. Especially since Itachi said that it was because Minato had Kushina that helped him become Hokage. Well, Naruto has Sakura. She just needs to push him the right way.

Beside every good man is a great women. ^^

Why am I reminded of the Queen in the movie 300? "Ask yourself, what should a free man do?"

Edited by James S Cassidy, 21 January 2013 - 08:36 AM.

[Chatte]

James and Romance girl, you guys are so much astonishing me!
James, I loved that part about Hinata and Sakura with the nindo! I wish something like this happens so people can finally open their eyes and see who is actually doing good to Naruto, but not by sugar-coated words, but by taking it out of the comfort zone, even if it needs punching!

[Codus N]

I don't often compare Naruto to Superman, honestly. I guess it's because their default personalities are so different (Superman: "mild-mannered, quiet, serious, modest." Naruto: "cheerful, talkative, hot-headed, flippant."). However, I had recognized three very surprising characteristics they share. They both have such blind optimism/idealism and always seem to want to see the best in people. It's actually one of their fatal flaws. Clark's initial relationship with Lex Luther always vividly reminded me of Naruto's relationship with Sasuke. Both tried so hard to see if Lex and Sasuke to have some shred of good still in them so they could change, almost purposely ignoring their dark and twisted qualities. The difference is: Clark gave up, but never stopped wondering if he had done things differently, Lex wouldn't have fell off the deep end. He still blamed himself for his failure with his former best friend. Naruto hasn't give up yet and seems to have no intention to. Both of them also always seem to hide their true feelings by lying and masking them with their defaults (Clark: serious. Naruto: over-cheerful). Naruto hasn't truly discovered the impact of failure or true despair. 615 showed some example of it but I have a sneaking suspicion it's not that last we'll see of it.

I'm worried about him eternally feeling like a failure because he couldn't save his friend enough so he could live. Look at how he reacted to Neji! Sasuke dying ... I'm just so ridiculously worried by Naruto's frame of mind afterwards, it's not even funny.

Someone needs to do it soon. Hinata clearly won't be able to do it. She cares far too much about Naruto's feelings and upsetting him. As you once said yourself, Hinata would only encourage the habit and coddle him. Basically, he would never learn and actually be "out of his shell." Sakura on the other hand, is very much the "tough love" approach. She would force him to open up and talk with her because that's the stubborn, direct person she is. Waiting for him to "come around" isn't an option to her. 'Cause she knows it would never happen. Sakura truly needs to be the only to teach him happiness. Naruto's matyr complex is a terrible strain on anyone to have, even him.

Everytime I think about Sakura breaking his "wall", I remember her confession to him. "Give up on rescuing Sasuke! Stop risking your life to bring him back! I'm tired of you putting yourself in danger like that! Think about yourself for a change!" -Sakura Haruno. Easily one of my favorite quotes she has ever said before. I loved how forward and blunt she was to him right there. No matter what people say about the confession, her anger was real. Her words right there were honest. She truly felt that way. And what upsets me the most is how Naruto reacted to it. You could see him be surprised and briefly think over what she was saying, looking guilty. Then immediately he got angry and stubborn again, saying "That sounds like an excuse to me." Everytime I see that now, I feel like slapping him for implying she didn't mean that. She did. How could Naruto know her so well yet not know her at all? He was being so rude and immature then, it's terrible. So what if she was pushing him out of his comfort zone? So what if she was getting dangerously close to his love for her and actually forcing him to take that chance and admit how he feels? So what if she was saying he was risking too much and believing Sasuke couldn't be saved? Sakura did it for him. Naruto realized that to some extent thanks to Sai, but not completely. There is no way Sakura is gonna drop this subject. Another NS argument seems very possible because of Naruto's stubbornness.

Lovin' your posts as of recently!!

About your Superman comparison, I very much agree. Also, I believe that Superman is pretty much what Naruto will become into in the manga. Not just in power, but in character as well. He will realize that he is very much fallible just like the rest, but he will keep on moving no matter what. This is where I think Naruto will succeed where Kakashi could not. To be able to move on from his failures and make himself better. Honestly, I'm kind of hoping he'll say something similar Ichigo once said to Ishida. That he's not some kind of superhero who can do anything and that there will be people he probably won't be able to save, but he'll still keep trying to protect as many as he can. It's also one of my favourite quotes in shonen manga history.

That's why, if the above happens, then I don't mind Sasuke dying. He can rot like Hidan, for all I care

BTW, I am absolutely mindblown regarding your opinion on Sakura's confession. Man, if you were around when that came out, I would've had a much better understanding of that chapter. It's like any negative opinions I had about that confession no longer exists thanks to you . Also, if I had to say one other person who could slap some sense into Naruto, it would be Shikamaru. Kishi has so far been building him up as Naruto's right hand-man, so we need to see it.

[xxRomanceGirlxx]

Lovin' your posts as of recently!!

About your Superman comparison, I very much agree. Also, I believe that Superman is pretty much what Naruto will become into in the manga. Not just in power, but in character as well. He will realize that he is very much fallible just like the rest, but he will keep on moving no matter what. This is where I think Naruto will succeed where Kakashi could not. To be able to move on from his failures and make himself better. Honestly, I'm kind of hoping he'll say something similar Ichigo once said to Ishida. That he's not some kind of superhero who can do anything and that there will be people he probably won't be able to save, but he'll still keep trying to protect as many as he can. It's also one of my favourite quotes in shonen manga history.

That's why, if the above happens, then I don't mind Sasuke dying. He can rot like Hidan, for all I care

BTW, I am absolutely mindblown regarding your opinion on Sakura's confession. Man, if you were around when that came out, I would've had a much better understanding of that chapter. It's like any negative opinions I had about that confession no longer exists thanks to you . Also, if I had to say one other person who could slap some sense into Naruto, it would be Shikamaru. Kishi has so far been building him up as Naruto's right hand-man, so we need to see it.

My posts can kick ass. I'm not modest enough to deny it. No matter how much more likely it is to get eye cancer by reading such long-ass paragraph posts.

That's Naruto's weakness. It's not so much he thinks he's perfect, it's actually the opposite. He knows completely he's not, but he doesn't like showing weakness very much. It makes him vulnerable, which leaves him susceptible to rejection. His childhood shaped him to take on that bad habit. However, it's also because he's way too selfless for his own good and doesn't like to burden people with his own problems. Basically, Naruto's masking of his true feelings is both a selfish defense mechanism and a selfless matyr complex, depending on the situation. It's interesting really, if not confusing. It's one of his flaws, definitely. Naruto's seemingly never-ending confidence is not always the case either. In his own abilities and becoming Hokage, yes. Getting Sakura to love him and turning Sasuke to light side of the force? No. It's just his refusal to admit defeat that keeps him going.

Naruto has the same hero complex Superman does, definitely. It was even more obvious when Neji died. I think he's beginning to learn a little from that experience. Just because someone dies, it doesn't mean you give up on everything or shoulder the weight of it by yourself. All it ever ends in is diaster. However, Naruto still needs some more pushes. His character development is not done yet. Here's hoping Sakura helps move him forward.

Alas, I'm not fond of Sasuke dying. I'm still a Sasuke fan. A disappointed and pissed off Sasuke fan who continually loves to bash his selfish treatment of everyone, but a Sasuke fan nonetheless. XD I'm confusing, I know . But if Kishimoto decides Naruto's ultimate growth will be through via Sasuke death, I will quit crying my tears of Sasuke grief and accept it. Naruto's growth matters more to me above all.

You're the third person who's said that to me since I first posted my analysis in one of these threads. XD It's flattering, really. 469-470 seem very complicated and in some sense, it is. The drama and widely varying interpretations prove it right. However, once you really think over it, it doesn't seem that hard to understand. It was never about if Sakura was lying about loving him. The main motivation was Sakura trying to get Naruto to let himself be happy, stop risking his life, and open up to her. With Naruto, he was the easiest to understand. That was the first time I realized Naruto's emotional mental wall. He didn't want to consider the possibility Sakura loves him, get his hopes up, and then be wrong. The promise of a lifetime created that wall. It was severely impactful. It's not just his denseness that prevents him from believing Sakura can love him. It's his insecurity and fear that got in the way. Top all that off with Sakura telling him to give up on rescuing Sasuke. To put it bluntly, it was an emotionally vulnerable situation. Naruto usually retreats in his shell, but in that moment, he couldn't. That's why he got angry and pissed off at her. I'm always disappointed when fans never try to look more deeply in the situation and instead conclude "Sakura was lying, she doesn't love him. Naruto doesn't love her either, that's why he got angry."

Edited by xxRomanceGirlxx, 22 January 2013 - 03:59 AM.