Yeah when it's at the point where you're pushing narrative boundaries way beyond its limits and create new villains just for the sake of challenging the main cast then that is where things will go down hill. That obviously will happen if they try to make anything past the Evangelist
Phantom_999Member Since 15 Apr 2011
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Posted by Phantom_999 on 24 May 2020 - 04:24 PM
Not only by working hard but also showing compassion and friendship towards them even if they were not giving the same to you. And besides NaruHina's relationship is bland, dull and unexciting. Why? Because there was no foundation for their relationship. One had to be FORCED in through a movie and there was no established close emotional intimacy between them before hand. So what did they want?
Posted by Phantom_999 on 24 May 2020 - 04:07 PM
Oh. Well then. Another beloved series for me is ending Well will be ending in the near future. Shinra X Tamaki better happen though
But hey if a crack pairing MUST happen, Tamaki X Assault, Right Derock?
Posted by Phantom_999 on 23 May 2020 - 02:18 PM
"But it is ALL A RED HERRING!" Says Kishi. all Naruto really wanted in life is a super model bodied shy girl that loves him with out end, bends her back over for him and lets him plunge into her, no questions asked!
Posted by Phantom_999 on 23 May 2020 - 01:57 PM
you mean Tamaki? The cat girl, right? Maki is another girl. The muscular and strong one lol
Well yeah pretty strong shipping going for them in the manga, for a non-romance shonen series anyway. didn't hear anything about it ending. Although I saw a forneverworld video saying that the creator is calling quits on the series but give it is forneverworld I didn't bother looking at it
Yeah the story is a bit confusing at first but it gets better I promise you
Posted by Phantom_999 on 21 May 2020 - 06:06 PM
The Spiderman 2017 show did it so well too, in regards to Peter and Octavius' relationship.
I Really enjoy the Insomniac Games Spider-man's relationship with Doc Ock Great game if I've never said it before
Posted by Phantom_999 on 18 May 2020 - 05:15 PM
Oh I know you're not and you definitely have a point that Sakura is obviously a more well written character ultimately with how she was already made. I agree with that, and i definitely agree with everything you posted. But obviously, those that hated Sakura do not view her as we do, and they take their frustrations on her character by vicariously wishing Naruto would have a perfect trophy wife that would love him unconditionally and wait on him hand and foot because he is entitled to it. Ironic, because that is JUST as shallow of a reason for Naruto and Hinata to get together as it was for hating Sakura and thinking her crush on Sasuke was disgusting and petty. Again, My suggestion was only to stamp out the cause of Sakura's hatred and to give explanation for it because of the double standards fans have with her compared to other characters like her. Iv'e experienced, and I'm sure so have you worse tsunderes than Sakura and she is also quite a mild example when you think about it. Yet many fans that don't truly follow the story appreciate what she does for the plot or even accept her because of her lack of feelings for Naruto at first despite being the love interest. Like you said Sakura is a well diverse and complex character that evolves form a immature love struck pre-teen to a genuine kind and caring woman that can show compassion unconditionally and protect others from harm, even strangers. But again fans seem to like tsunderes like Noelle more where their main personality trait is being kind of a "kitten" with a hidden soft spot because they are insecure about their feelings, especially towards their love interest.
So while I admit I am fond of my idea of Sakura being Naruto's childhood friend, it is true Sakura would lose some of her appeal and vast amount of development for those that actually can love her as a character already. So Ultimately Sakura doesn't really need to change, what does is the suspension of disbelief that what she felt for Sasuke was love and that she could continue to love him despite seeing what a terrible person he ended up as. that is probably what so many take issue with after all these years.
side note* Mimosa can definitely be defined more than just a princess with a crush on Asta, I just don't see it yet, and the story has not changed that dynamic thus far. Again, Ironic that Hinata also had that potential too with the back story and the character motivation potentially being there, but wasted opportunity, right?
Posted by Phantom_999 on 18 May 2020 - 04:38 PM
If Kishimoto ever did a reboot and NaruSaku ended up canon, I'd have to say; I'd at least expect him to confess that NH/SS wasn't the intended pairing in the original story. He'd have to yuck up the truth and apologize for it.
Though, frankly, I'd just prefer he did a reboot of the ending. For all I know, an entire reboot of Naruto would still have the horny boys for Hinata interfering and they would straight up make Hinata the heroine and push Sakura to the side. I can't trust them NOT to. In fact, I'd expect it.
And I am not waiting or wasting another 10 years of my life to see how that goes. How Naruto ended forever turned me off of ongoing series. If horny editors/studios have THAT MUCH say in how a series ends, I can't trust it to not happen again. I'm pretty much disillusioned with the anime industry and am now extremely selective about what I watch/read.
On top of all that, I now I have a strong resistance/dislike for moeblobs who have nothing going for them suddenly becoming a mary-sue and are only defined by their feelings for a guy. But everyone loves them because "AWWW KAWAIIIIII <3333 SO CUTE. U GO GURL. UR A GODDESS. GET UR MAN". Forget about actually having a personality. Forget character development. Moeblobs nearly need to steal oxygen from everyone else to become a fan favorite. Happened to Naruto. Happened to another series I love. Burn all the moeblob trash. Literally a cancer in story telling of any kind.
Thanks for turning me into this bitter of a person when it comes to anime and manga, Kishimoto and Studio Pierrot.
Which is why I've moved on from Naruto. And I'm never going back to it, unless there is genuine effort put into the story and there is also no signs of swaying the structure of the plot, just to please a group of idiotic fans that never supported it in the first place nor are they ever satisfied with the outcome either way.
On the other hand I've seen some series that I've totally invested my time in and I won't say that I have half a mind that they may end up in the same kitten circumstances. But I've tried to balance being optimistic with being realistic ,in that I will wait and see where it gores and hope for the best but expect the worst. And trust me the feeling of Naruto never goes away for me either because I get the same unease when I see the same scenario in another series that I following right now. I won't delve into it , but it's there
Now the real problem, if you ask me, with these over simplified, trashy moe characters is that fans obsess over them for no other reason other than satisfy their own deluded fantasies. And because of that, no one can ever look at these characters objectively and give a genuine opinion of them except their own head canon, plus take offence to the slightest criticism of that character like it is a verbal assault on their own ego and beliefs. Which is why I never try to have civilized conversations with these fans because I already know there's no point in trying. Just saying. I can understand liking a moe character, but I will NEVER understand worshiping them like a religion, threatening to set anyone on fire that does not view them like you do or making up in your head facts and and personality traits they simply do not have, and can not see except what you want to see in that character
You and me both. Hinata Hyuga and her fandom have given me such a shellshock in anime that I become extremely anxious every time I see a character that even remotely resembles Hinata and her moe-gunk. I am like "Oh here we go again. How is this kitten going to do nothing and get all the rewards now?"
Naruto...has really stressed me as of late and I am having a hard time pulling away from it.
Worse still when I see these "Naruto fans" say how great Hinata is ALL they f-n remember is the damn Pein Arc scene. 15 years, 13,728 pages, and that is ALL they remember?
It is insulting. It is just so insulting.
Insulting AND HILARIOUS if you ask me. THEY are the ones that proved what genuine fans are not. THEY are the ones that got rewarded in the end for all of their obsession for a crack pairing. AND NOW, THEY ARE THE ONES reaping the consequences for their own hubris. Their divine couple is not having the happily ever after marriage and perfect family life that all these nut cases were dreaming of and now they even MORE salty than when there was the threat of their crack pairing losing. Those that STILL BOTHER to defend Boruto, use such flimsy and pathetic excuses that you would genuinely believe they are trying to convince themselves that they have not wasted their time on it for nothing. OH? Naruto and Boruto's dynamic adds meaningful drama to the series? Yeah tell me that when Boruto stops showing wangst about his father's neglect and Nardo stops showing his hypocrisy on loneliness, isolation and not even having any parents for his whole god damned life. And if they get heated and start bashing us for criticizing Boruto? "Calm down, It's just a story!" Isn't that what you were telling us when your crack pairing became canon?
Honestly I am RELISHING in their hypocrisy and salt right now. Because they can't accept that the series went into the gutter right now and is basically milking the skeleton of a cash cow because it died years ago. Now they know how we feel. They WASTED their time. The couple that they wanted to happen so badly that they threatened violence and the notion to to not support the series anymore does not have their fairy tale married life that these "fans" were hoping for and the divine couple's kids are "dysfunctional brats" that have to be remade to purity-sues to not have more fans leaving the series. They can't accept that for their crack pairing to happen, the MC had to throw all of his character development, personality and emotional intelligence out the window for their "moe princess" to even get a shot with him. And they can't accept Boruto exists now because
Naruto NARDO became a hypocrite to his beliefs and goals of bringing world peace and ending conflict so there are no more orphans suffering that can turn into megalomaniacs. So once again THIS IS my only reaction........................................
Posted by Phantom_999 on 10 May 2020 - 03:18 AM
don't know why people are surprised, they also seem to think that Naruto and Sasuke can take on New-52 Superman... Supes could blink and destroy the whole Narutoverse, let alone Naruto and Sasuke alone.
And Considering Superman recently punched out someone called The “World Destroyer”, he’s definitely gonna crush those two over-hyped weeb “bags of salt”, no contest. Just saying.
Posted by Phantom_999 on 09 May 2020 - 03:16 AM
I will agree that that Sakura is or was a well written character, all things considered. My suggestion for her to be Naruto's childhood friend that liked him from the start was merely to address the double standard that she has compared to other tsunderes. Sakura is definitely not even as bad or annoying of a character when compared to the likes of Naru from Love Hina. But It seems that Sakura is far less tolerable than Takahashi's tsunderes or any incredibly exaggerated example you can think of like Louise from the Familiar of Zero. Like I said those characters have their haters too but for some reason it looks like Sakura is far more hated than any of them and no matter the character development she goes through her haters can never let go of their initial impressions of her, and to my experience even detractors of tsunderes in other series don't seem to have such a fueled vendetta like they do to Sakura. You really have to wonder what's up with that, since I'm sure many of these "vocal haters" of Sakura watch other anime and they probably would be fine with other tsunderes, maybe.
But yes there really nothing wrong with how Sakura was written, in fact I have already made the argument before the only real issue with The Naruto Sakura and Sasuke Dynamic is that the love triangle was dragged out to very unrealistic and unrelatable proportions. That Sakura would still be smitten with Sasuke after all that time is probably what many take issue with even some of us here. The writing itself especially was not giving any reason for her to still hang on to any feelings for him him, romantic or not since it was apparent she did not really see anything past the mysterious "bad boy" Sasuke was and there shows to be no bonding between them because Sasuke would not even let her in "emotionally" so for them to be together despite all of that is nothing short of an "ass pull". Definitely the low point for Sakura in the series was to throw all of her development out the window, but the same can said for Naruto, so whatever.
Ultimately we can all agree here that Sakura' character was not the real issue, but how her character resolution was handled. and that extends to the series as a whole. But again, I was only addressing the issue that the story only turned out they way it did partially because there were too many sympathizers with Hinata for no real reason other than the fact that she liked him when he was an an ostracized social pariah, with nothing else outstanding or even remarkable about her, but she is loved for that fact alone. There was also not nearly as much fan support for Sakura as there should have been for the opposite reason in that she is the object of Naruto's affection, but it was unrequited and she was pining after Sasuke instead. I am merely theorizing that things may not have played out as they did IF Sakura did indeed like Naruto from the beginning or at least was more sympathetic to him, or just drop the crush on Sasuke because their dynamic would maybe have worked out the same even without the drama of a likes b who likes c, but that is an assumption on my part obviously. Who knows?
Posted by Phantom_999 on 05 May 2020 - 05:48 AM
Ah. Well still, too little too late for me even if it were true. Unless he were to actually improve his story tell vastly with NaruSaku as the the “icing in the cake”, then maybe. I will ask for nothing less to have had my time wasted. A great meaningful story with little hypocritical BS at best to justify anything. The Pairing of choice with Naruto And and Sakura will only come second to the story and after the kinks in their relationship are fixed. Such as if The love triangle must exist still Sakura realizes that what she feels for Sasuke is not love and among other things.
Posted by Phantom_999 on 03 May 2020 - 11:37 PM
Like I said if it happens by a miracle the NH/SS fans will be whining and raging" the NH/SS ending is the true ending" all of that bla bla bla.
And that is not a risk I think that anyone involved is willing to take since they still want the support of those shipping fans that still bother with it. Alienating EVERYONE from the series would devastate the already fragile footing the series already has right now. Many of the original fans are gone and even SS fans are disillusioned by the writing put into place in Boruto at the moment. just saying this from an objective standpoint. Besides, I wouldn't start supporting this franchise again after having my value as a fan INSULTED just because I got the pairing I wanted as a consolation prize. If NaruSaku happened as intended in the story back then that would have been the sole saving grace for the entire thing. But no, not only did they slap on the "god forsaken crack pairings" at the very end of Naruto's saga, Kishimoto had the audacity to say NaruSaku was a "red herring" and fans that were vying for them read the entire thing wrong. All the the romantic and tender moments between them, all that heartbreak from Sakura and Naruto being an understanding "shoulder to cry on", all the of the hugs and offer to feed Naruto were a RED HERRING, when instead time would have been better spent focusing on the actual couples that they wanted so badly last second and developing them to genuinely loving and believable relationships instead of coming with that B!&^H @$$ excuse. That very comment is the most insulting and pathetic excuse a writer can ever come up with, BAR NONE.
And YOU KNOW THAT IS SAYING SOMETHING when even some NH fans are getting their "wake up call" right now. Not that I have any sympathy to give them since they were asking for this to the detriment of the story and everyone's enjoyment of it.¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posted by Phantom_999 on 03 May 2020 - 11:04 PM
EXACTLY. I just didn't bring that up because it wasn't part of my point of debate. I was only saying that Noelle is probably everything Sakura could have been if some more love and care were put into her character, plus if she had maybe liked Naruto from the beginning she probably wouldn't have been the point of contention that she was back in the day among American fans ( at least, I hear it was really only in America where she is so divided). I'm sure of it.
Let me use another example. Rurouni Kenshin. Kaoru is like Sakura as well in that she is a tsundere that is the love interest with the MC and has little to do with the major fights in the series despite being hailed as a great Kendo Master because because of the borderline supernatural fighting styles and physical gifts that Kenshin, Sanosuke and many many of their adversaries had. That is how it is explained but you don't see her getting ANY CRAP for it by fans that hate on Sakura, mostly. Or how about Dragon Ball? All of the women were reduced to mothers and home makers, even Bulma who was was the deuteragonist at the very start of the manga, yet no one is complaining about them either or calling them "useless", to my knowledge at least, again from these same fans that rag on Sakura for no particular reason.
You only see this treatment reserved for Sakura and only for Sakura. And by what I witnessed and hear even now it has to do with the fact that she was the love interest of the MC that was a tsundere to him yet did not have a crush on him like he did on her and instead was was after the popular "bad boy" Sasuke. And yet again I must bring up, no other fans seem to be hating on the girls of their age group squealing and daydreaming about Sasuke, not even Ino. It is only Sakura that gets the heat for that, more or less. Am I wrong?
Posted by Phantom_999 on 03 May 2020 - 09:17 AM
Lol, maybe Phantom, but I still think that it needs to happen, and there are so many ways that you can do it, and I would keep doing it until the NH/Hinata fandom gets it that Hinata is not all they think she's all cracked up to be. I mean, we all know how Hinata's fans are, they too blinded by the girl as they see that Hinata can do nothing wrong.
I know of some that can work showing how selfish Hinata is, and how she also uses Naruto.
1: We see something from the past, mainly Naruto's childhood at Five, and he gets beaten almost to death while Hinata is watching and not doing a thing. But add on to it that others like Choji Shikamaru Sakura hell even Ino see this and want to help, but Hinata sees this and tells her father. Who later tells their parents who tell the kids to stay away from the demon child.
2: Hinata gets a bunch of kids killed because she thinks Naruto was going to die.
That's all I have right now but again so many things you can do.
Oh there's no need to even do any of that. the solution was very simple from the start, if you ask me and it's not hard to do. Make Sakura Naruto's childhood friend that is still a tsundere to him when he does something stupid but have her smiling and blushing when he talks about how he wants to be Hokage, Make Hinata the same but not as Naruto's fan girl and have her shrink away even around him. THEN those fans would not find her so cute anymore. How do I know? Remember, Sakura is not even that bad of a tsundere compared to some other cases but those other cases are far more tolerated than her.
Case in point. I know not all of us here watch Black Clover here but it is a PERFECT EXAMPLE of this dynamic DONE RIGHT (and is one of my very favourite series right now, but besides the point). You have the main character Asta who is exactly like Naruto. (and I am not saying this lightly) He is a idiotic simpleton that wants to the biggest political figure in his home kingdom, the Wizard King, which is the strongest combat magic user in said kingdom and commands all other mages of said category called "magic knights" which all use magic as a military force and law enforcement at the same time. He was bullied and teased since childhood because he HAS NO MAGIC which is completely unheard of but still is determined to be the Wizard King, and has MANY MANY naysayers even now in the series. Spot the similarities RIGHT THERE? I won't delve into HOW He is trying to become wizard king despite having no magic or the setting and premise, but you get the idea.
Now you have the main female lead of the manga/anime, Noelle Silva, who is a princess of that kingdom, and a tsundere completely not unlike Sakura. She was snooty at the start of the manga/anime (still is somewhat now even after character development) and would rub her status in the faces of others, even her friends (she and Asta are assigned to the same magic knight squad), and uses it as a justification of her haughty attitude, BUT "SHOCKER!!", she is in love with Asta. She berates him like a typical tsundere love interest and smacks him with her magic when embarrassed or he does something stupid, but shows to completely fan girl him in silence and inside her head, shows visible concern when there was the time when he lost control of his powers and he looked like a monster similar to Sakura and Naruto, etc etc. and develops into a stronger more confident young woman. How popular is she you ask? She placed third in the Black Clover Popularity polls TWICE.
And do note, Asta has has a "Hinata" too in this scenario which is Noelle's cousin. Said cousin is a sweet-natured healer, and also falls for Asta soon after she is introduced, and while she does have fans that prefer her over Noelle to get with Asta, Noelle is still far more popular overall. The cousin's name is Mimosa if you're curious, and has the EXACT SAME dynamic as Hinata, in that she is not on the same team as Asta, barely interacts with him, and has a bust size that is noted by other characters and also used as the butt of jokes on occasion. Despite her obvious crush on Asta she is rarely seen with him, does not spend time with him off duty, and is hardly seen at all in the series, plus Asta spends more time with Noelle than even his "best friend/ rival". That's right Asta ALSO has a "Sasuke" that he is life partners with and strives toward the same goal to become wizard king (if you want I'll talk about him later), but Asta spends most of his time with Noelle.
My point on all of this is that you see the difference between Noelle and Sakura in the eyes of the fans here here? Noelle is just like Sakura in her dynamic with Asta, withthe tsundere attitude but she was established incredibly early in the manga to have started liking him in secret but is too embarrassed to show it to him properly, plus she has competition for his affections and it is not just Mimosa, there are a couple of other characters I did not mention that could be called "love interests" for Asta, but these two, Noelle and Mimosa, are the most prominent in the story and again Mimosa is not shown to be with Asta frequently and is off screen a lot of the time just like Hinata. So what is the difference between Noelle and Sakura?
Pretty sure that it is because Noelle has shown to have a very soft spot for the MC despite her reluctance to show it or hell, even admit it to others and herself most of all. And get this, SEVERAL character can see she loves Asta, even character that don't see her often or know her that well. there are several characters in universe that outright WANT to see them as a couple or acknowledge Noelle's feelings. Plus, Noelle progresses a lot as a character in that she has an INSANE amount of magic power, but can't control properly so she started off as a liability early in the manga (just like Sakura again) so her development is learning to actually use her powers and become a stronger person , and she has goals that don't involve Asta at all might I add. It also helps that she is quite the beauty herself, with author admitting she is one of the most physically attractive women in the kingdom. If that is not double standards, I don't know what is.
BUT do you get it now? the problem is not Hinata at all, but to fix all first impressions of Sakura. I've argued this for years. Hinata is NOTHING, there is nothing special about her besides her family name, she is a side character at best and her so called feelings for the MC are her sole defining feature and she' is NOT EVEN PROMINENT AT THAT. All of Sakura's hatred and Hinata worship has nothing to do with Hinata and everything to do with how others viewed Sakura at the start. If Sakura was shown to love Naruto at the start she likely would be more popular than she is now just like Noelle, and not have her tsundere behaviour held in contempt because she did not even secretly like him. And notice, you see A LOT of other Shonen manga/anime heroines that are not physically involved with the plot either. They don't have plot important fights or even fights at all in their series, but do you see them being called weak useless, annoying etc etc. like Sakura has? Often no. Why? because their love for the MC is plot relevant and fans seem to latch on to that and adore it.
But what I'm saying is Hinata is not the problem. And even if she was, the problem is not solved is solved by simply making her a horrible character. That has been done before and those females are still loved for it by these fans, so that is not working. Perfect example. Yuno Gasai from "Future Diary". THAT GIRL is an outright psychotic killer and actually embodies everything you WANT TO paint Hinata as. She casually murders people and with a child like glee in her facial expression, and is physically, emotionally and even socially abusive towards her love interest, the MC of the story. she considers anyone he interacts with in their age group a threat to their relationship, so she kills them or attempts to kill them on regular basis. She even drugged and kidnapped him one time for at least a week. Fans STILL love her and want her with the MC and SHE DOES get with him at the end. So you see, it is not enough to just make Hinata as heinous as possible to get these fans to stop worshiping her, and Yuno Gasai is one of MANY examples that prove this point. Just my two cents.
Posted by Phantom_999 on 02 May 2020 - 10:26 AM
You're right Phantom, but I do have to add she doesn't even have any plot relevance, at best she's a plot device used from time to time for someone else's benefit. She was used to create/introduce a conflict between Naruto and Neji, then she was used for Naruto to meet his dad by her dying in front of him and him unleashing the Kyuubi, you can also say she was used to show that Sakura has confidence in Naruto and knows him better than anyone, but that's just me .
Also apparently no one loves me after my previous post.
Fine you're not my family anymore.
We are family here. Need a hug?