71 replies to this topic

[Derock]

?

Its a bot. Move along.

[Nate River]

SS is nothing like that, though. 

 

A few problems with some positions I've found at a glance: 

 

Inquiry: If Sakura was a plot device to introduce a next gen character, why was she introduced so early?

 

Answer: She is not a plot device to support a next gen character. This is because while Sasuke is a part of her character, she functions deeper in the narrative flow than merely making Sarada for generation two, serving as a friend and companion to the hero, a heroine in her own right, with her own development and struggles from part one through the rest of the manga. A plot device wouldn't click so late if this was it's purpose. 

 

Inquiry: If Sasuke was allowed to live on without accountability or responsilbity for his actions, why was he imprisoned, and left on a journey for his sins?

 

Answer: Because Sasuke was still accountable and responsible for the things he did, so he was imprisoned. Were it not for him saving the world, and Naruto and Kakashi advocating for him, he would probably still be imprisoned. 

 

Premature release because of your connections doesn't sound like being held responsible. Yes, Sasuke helped them, but it was because the enemy was in the way to his own likely totalitarian plans (after all what was his plan to make everyone hate him so much that they'd ignore all other conflicts. They want to reward what amounted to the Stalin version of the alliance. Fine, but the series shouldn't pretend that it something other than what it is. He didn't help them because it was the right thing to do.

 

Probably the worst part of the series is how poorly concepts like accountability were handled. This kind of issue along with general ideas about justice can often be at odds with redemption. Naruto gets past the natural conflict largely by ignoring its existence.

[Bail o' Lies]

 

Premature release because of your connections doesn't sound like being held responsible. Yes, Sasuke helped them, but it was because the enemy was in the way to his own likely totalitarian plans (after all what was his plan to make everyone hate him so much that they'd ignore all other conflicts. They want to reward what amounted to the Stalin version of the alliance. Fine, but the series shouldn't pretend that it something other than what it is. He didn't help them because it was the right thing to do.

 

Probably the worst part of the series is how poorly concepts like accountability were handled. This kind of issue along with general ideas about justice can often be at odds with redemption. Naruto gets past the natural conflict largely by ignoring its existence.

Kishimoto really shot himself in the foot in order to keep Sasuke as an antagonist for the final battle.

 

Not counting the crimes against his home country Sasuke has: assaulted and kidnapped a high ranking member of a foreign countries military, attacked a summit of world leaders, join a terrorist organization bent on taking over the world... actually ending the world by turning everyone into plant food, and tried to taking over the world himself (granted Team 7 clearly covered that one up.)

 

It says something that Sakura who "never doubted Sasuke for a second because of her deep unending unquestioning love for him." Thought it was absolutely absurd along with everyone else (except hinata, because she wasn't involved in the classmates reunion during the war) that he would try to become hokage after all he had done.

 

As for Sasuke's side of things, "why should he remain loyal or feel the need to atone to a village that committed democide on his clan?"

[TheFirstEvil100]

 

Premature release because of your connections doesn't sound like being held responsible. Yes, Sasuke helped them, but it was because the enemy was in the way to his own likely totalitarian plans (after all what was his plan to make everyone hate him so much that they'd ignore all other conflicts. They want to reward what amounted to the Stalin version of the alliance. Fine, but the series shouldn't pretend that it something other than what it is. He didn't help them because it was the right thing to do.

 

Probably the worst part of the series is how poorly concepts like accountability were handled. This kind of issue along with general ideas about justice can often be at odds with redemption. Naruto gets past the natural conflict largely by ignoring its existence.

Its why Darth Vader death was handled so very well he did bad killed many many people and in the end he stilled died cause that was what is needed. And I know he is not the only one either as I am sure there are many many more that have a better fate as well cause the writer knew all too well there was no coming back or life that they could have, since they have done far too much to get a damn free pass.

 

Sasuke just got a free pass cause he had a hard life, no he should have either died or pent the rest of his days is jail.

 

Kishimoto really shot himself in the foot in order to keep Sasuke as an antagonist for the final battle.

 

Not counting the crimes against his home country Sasuke has: assaulted and kidnapped a high ranking member of a foreign countries military, attacked a summit of world leaders, join a terrorist organization bent on taking over the world... actually ending the world by turning everyone into plant food, and tried to taking over the world himself (granted Team 7 clearly covered that one up.)

 

It says something that Sakura who "never doubted Sasuke for a second because of her deep unending unquestioning love for him." Thought it was absolutely absurd along with everyone else (except hinata, because she wasn't involved in the classmates reunion during the war) that he would try to become hokage after all he had done.

 

As for Sasuke's side of things, "why should he remain loyal or feel the need to atone to a village that committed democide on his clan?"

Thinking about it man I think that your right Team 7 did cover up what Sasuke wanted to do, I even think the new Gen have no idea what Sasuke did in the past either that Naruto made a law that no one and I mean no one was allowed to say what Sasuke did which show how bad Naruto is when he tries to cover up all the kitten things that Sasuke has done.

[Bail o' Lies]

Thinking about it man I think that your right Team 7 did cover up what Sasuke wanted to do, I even think the new Gen have no idea what Sasuke did in the past either that Naruto made a law that no one and I mean no one was allowed to say what Sasuke did which show how bad Naruto is when he tries to cover up all the kitten things that Sasuke has done.

It's pretty clear they covered it up by chapter 699, and I'm pretty sure that also happened in the episode where he was in Jail (that's also where Naruto agreed they should hide the truth of the Uchiha Massacre). As for Naruto covering everything up? Of course! Salad knows nothing of her father or her clan.

[TheFirstEvil100]

It's pretty clear they covered it up by chapter 699, and I'm pretty sure that also happened in the episode where he was in Jail (that's also where Naruto agreed they should hide the truth of the Uchiha Massacre). As for Naruto covering everything up? Of course! Salad knows nothing of her father or her clan.

Yeah makes sense man I wish someone would find out and just tell them how great their hero is and that he is covering up for a killer and what he was going to do. As that is all it seems that Naruto can do is cover for Sasuke, and that Sasuke can do no wrong either which I hate now about Naruto, he is quick to demonize others for what they do.

 

But when it comes to Sasuke somehow that SOB gets a free damn pass cause Naruto thinks the are brothers, please Anakin and Obi-won were brothers nnot Sasuke and Naruto.

[Nate River]

Kishimoto really shot himself in the foot in order to keep Sasuke as an antagonist for the final battle.

 

Not counting the crimes against his home country Sasuke has: assaulted and kidnapped a high ranking member of a foreign countries military, attacked a summit of world leaders, join a terrorist organization bent on taking over the world... actually ending the world by turning everyone into plant food, and tried to taking over the world himself (granted Team 7 clearly covered that one up.)

 

It says something that Sakura who "never doubted Sasuke for a second because of her deep unending unquestioning love for him." Thought it was absolutely absurd along with everyone else (except hinata, because she wasn't involved in the classmates reunion during the war) that he would try to become hokage after all he had done.

 

As for Sasuke's side of things, "why should he remain loyal or feel the need to atone to a village that committed democide on his clan?"

 I don't know that Sasuke is the issue specifically. I'm not sure an easy way out of this for his without actually turning this into Sasuke the manga as he would be driving the plot even further than he did. I would have tolerated something like what was done if the series had a better track record dealing with the issue. Or at least pretended it was an issue. However, it ignored or dodged it over and over and openly protected characters (especially Naruto) from this. Characters who do reprehensible things are actually rewarded in this series. Kid Obito and Kabuto are probably the two worst examples. Maybe Gedo Mazo, too.

 

The trouble with save the world stories where the villain is redeemed is that they do heinous things that would normally result in life sentences or execution. This is why I think characters like Darth Vader often die as often as they do. That in and of itself a dodge. It's not uncommon to kinda wade through this, but I've never seen it ignored as thoroughly as it was in Naruto. I can't stand that Kabuto runs an orphanage as if people just forgot how Edo Tensei works.

 

Speaking of Naruto, the guy clearly benefited from his relationship with the Hokage (and I mean certain rules weren't followed and people humored his quest). Why were the orders on runaway Sasuke to retrieve and not to kill on sight as had been established earlier in the series, for example? Would random ninja get that kind of benefit. I'm not counting on it. A perfect chance for the series to confront issues of favoritism, the rational for the rule, and maybe why bending it or eliminating it was necessary, which would have been right up this series's ally as Naruto sought to change the system. But nope. It's Naruto. It's Sasuke. Therefore, it is done. Such a waste opportunity. 

[Bail o' Lies]

 I don't know that Sasuke is the issue specifically. I'm not sure an easy way out of this for his without actually turning this into Sasuke the manga as he would be driving the plot even further than he did. I would have tolerated something like what was done if the series had a better track record dealing with the issue. Or at least pretended it was an issue. However, it ignored or dodged it over and over and openly protected characters (especially Naruto) from this. Characters who do reprehensible things are actually rewarded in this series. Kid Obito and Kabuto are probably the two worst examples. Maybe Gedo Mazo, too.

 

The trouble with save the world stories where the villain is redeemed is that they do heinous things that would normally result in life sentences or execution. This is why I think characters like Darth Vader often die as often as they do. That in and of itself a dodge. It's not uncommon to kinda wade through this, but I've never seen it ignored as thoroughly as it was in Naruto. I can't stand that Kabuto runs an orphanage as if people just forgot how Edo Tensei works.

 

Speaking of Naruto, the guy clearly benefited from his relationship with the Hokage (and I mean certain rules weren't followed and people humored his quest). Why were the orders on runaway Sasuke to retrieve and not to kill on sight as had been established earlier in the series, for example? Would random ninja get that kind of benefit. I'm not counting on it. A perfect chance for the series to confront issues of favoritism, the rational for the rule, and maybe why bending it or eliminating it was necessary, which would have been right up this series's ally as Naruto sought to change the system. But nope. It's Naruto. It's Sasuke. Therefore, it is done. Such a waste opportunity. 

When you look at Sasuke's arc before Itachi was "#secretly good guy all along," what would have been Sasuke's arc? He would have realized the pointlessness/emptiness of revenge gone off to find himself. Probably returned during the war to help Naruto. No final battle between Naruto and Sasuke needed. But kishimoto wanted that battle. So he needed to find away that Sasuke could remain the antagonist and needed to be reformed by Naruto. Here comes "it's was the villages fault all along," which was great for keeping Sasuke as an avenger and an antagonist, but problems once he was reformed.

 

That's normally called "redemption equal death." The thing is for Sasuke, he was always going to be Naruto redeems him and he returns to the village. The "it's the villages fault all along," made that incredibly awkward. As for the rest, well everything was dropped for Hinata.

 

It was Tsunade's leniency as a favor to Naruto that Sasuke wasn't labeled a missing-nin at the end of part one; Kakashi mentioned this after Danzo changed it after the Cloud ninjas requested so.

[NarutoUzumaki01]

Here we go again © DMX

[Kagomaru]

Here we go again © DMX

Like clockwork, she is.

[NarutoUzumaki01]

 

What does DMX have to do with this?

It's a person that I quoted?

© - means a sourse of quote.

[NarutoUzumaki01]

 

DMX the rapper then?

Correct.

[Nate River]

I don't know if the reason why matters so much, still saving the entire world is a significant detail. I wouldn't credit Stalin with that, though the metaphor isn't entirely inaccurate. 
 
That said, I think it's a legitimiate criticism. Sasuke being held before going off wasn't really shown in the manga, a badly needed fine detail I think to give it more satisfaction that I'm glad the anime added. A meeting showing the delibration over Sasuke would have been an added bonus, but if time didn't allow it, that's fine. Another chapter could have added another helpful SS moment to wrap it up a bit nicer for 700, and close up some of the finer plot threads without relying on later material if desired.

For purposes of the story it matters in that its a factor in determining release. If his motivation was wholly selfish then it means very little in the way of reformation. How do they know he is not who he was other than his say so? How do they know he won't up and do what he did before? It's always a risk, but the motivation is important when looking at this. However, this is minor.

 

The big reason it matters is this story is one that is selling the idea of redemption to its audience. I think the audience would be more accepting of it if it felt like he earned it rather than having it just handed to him and would make the idea that he really was reformed easier to believe. Because we don't see the redemption journey, those actions are really all we have. 

 

For me personally, I think the former matters more than the latter. Sasuke's release feels way to much like favoritism that wouldn't be given to someone who wasn't tied to the Hokage. Sasuke's selfish motivations don't help in that regard. I think they are more believable for his character at the time, but it weakens the idea that he is redeemed.
 
 
 

[TheFirstEvil100]

You know all I do looking back at some points in Naruto is what The Doctor would have done mainly Kagyua that was just brought out of no where as all through out part 2 was building up to him then switched to some rabbit. I like to think that he would say this to her and maybe take Sakura in his TARDIS.

 

The Doctor: Okay then. That's what I'll do; I will tell you a story. Can you hear them? All these people who lived in terror of you and your judgement. All these people who's ancestors devoted themselves, sacrificed themselves to you. Can you hear them singing? Oh, you like to think you're a god. You're not a god, you're just a parasite, eaten out with jealousy and envy and longing for the lives of other. You feed on them, on the memory of love and loss and birth and death and joy and sorrow! So... So... Come on, then. Take mine. Take my memories. But I hope you've got a big appetite because I've lived a long life and I've seen a few things. I walked away from the Last Great Time War. I marked the passing of the Time Lords. I saw the birth of the universe and I watched as time ran out, moment by moment, until nothing remained. No time. No space. Just me. I walked in universes where the laws of physics were devised by the mind of a madman. I've watched universes freeze and creations burn. I have seen things you wouldn't believe. I have lost things you will never understand. And I know things, secrets that must never be told and knowledge that must never be spoken. Knowledge that will make parasite gods blaze. So come on then! Take it! Take it all, baby! Have it! You have it all!

[Bail o' Lies]

For purposes of the story it matters in that its a factor in determining release. If his motivation was wholly selfish then it means very little in the way of reformation. How do they know he is not who he was other than his say so? How do they know he won't up and do what he did before? It's always a risk, but the motivation is important when looking at this. However, this is minor.

 

The big reason it matters is this story is one that is selling the idea of redemption to its audience. I think the audience would be more accepting of it if it felt like he earned it rather than having it just handed to him and would make the idea that he really was reformed easier to believe. Because we don't see the redemption journey, those actions are really all we have. 

 

For me personally, I think the former matters more than the latter. Sasuke's release feels way to much like favoritism of a person who wasn't tied to the Hokage would get. Sasuke's selfish motivations don't help in that regard. I think they are more believable for his character at the time, but it weakens the idea that he is redeemed.

Also if you recall in chapter 699; Kakashi all but stated that he took the position of Hokage to have Sasuke released. The anime had a filler episode that expanded on it(where Sasuke was in Jail) but I have no interest in watching it.

[NarutoUzumaki01]

Also if you recall in chapter 699; Kakashi all but stated that he took the position of Hokage to have Sasuke released. The anime had a filler episode that expanded on it(where Sasuke was in Jail) but I have no interest in watching it.

What a great writing for manga with 15 years history.

[TheFirstEvil100]

What a great writing for manga with 15 years history.

Remember we need to feel sorry for the Uchiha as Sasuke was who this was all based on, and not Naruto.

[Bail o' Lies]

What a great writing for manga with 15 years history.

Remember the love story that was "the core of Naruto"; had to be done in a movie.

[Nate River]

Remember the love story that was "the core of Naruto"; had to be done in a movie.

 

It was?

 

Wasn't Naruto's bond with Sasuke the core?

[TheFirstEvil100]

 

It was?

 

Wasn't Naruto's bond with Sasuke the core?

Nope it was all about Hinata getting her prince Naruto and beating the evil witch Haruno.

 

While also the poor Uchiha  are used cause they love to much.