21 replies to this topic

[ThroughWithLove]

#1. Teleport to Naruto location when he is a child, capture him personally and immediately extract the Kyuubi.

 

#2.  Don't announce the 4th Great Shinobi War. Don't bother fooling with the kages. They are obviously never going to agree to the infinite tsukiyomi plan. Give them no notice of your plans. Activate the Juubi in secret, storm the leaf village and capture Naruto directly. Once that's done, proceed to do the same to the Lightning village. Hell, under this route, Naruto doesn't have incentive to go train with Killer Bee, thus all the more assuring Obito's victory.

 

Why he didn't do either of these things, I have no idea. Oh wait, yes I do. Plot hole! 

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 05 September 2017 - 07:35 PM.

[T XD]

Are we talking if they were real people or fictional ?

 

Cause my first thought would be that we wouldn't get Naruto winning at the end of the war. We would get Naruto killed at some point.  That's not what Kishimoto wants from the story.

Edited by T XD, 05 September 2017 - 07:40 PM.

[ThroughWithLove]

Are we talking if they were real people or fictional ?

 

Cause my first thought would be that we wouldn't get Naruto winning at the end of the war. We would get Naruto killed at some point.  That's not what Kishimoto wants from the story.

 

Real people. I mean yeah, Kishimoto does not want that to happen, but I don't really think he thought out Obito and Madara's schemes that well in hindsight.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Because it was too smart to use those plans.

[ThroughWithLove]

When we have a simpler avenue not taken or even addressed to solve a goal or obstacle in the plot, we have a plot hole. 

 

Classic example: Not using the eagles in the Lord of the Rings to fly the ring to mount doom. 

 

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 05 September 2017 - 08:03 PM.

[Qia]

Playing Devil's Advocate: The Eagles were prohibited by Manwe from acting directly. They're not truly eagles anyway. 

 

I.E...not a plot hole.

 

Besides, they don't have the Eagles on beck and call, so it's not really much of a plan you can put on a table. 

 

Further, The Eagles are more of a Deus Ex Machina thing, as much as I hate labels, specifically their use in the Hobbit. The story would be -worse- if they were used that way to end the Lord of the Rings, and unsatisfying. 

I think you're missing his point lol. If his question of why Obito couldn't have gone on with his plan when Naruto would be more vulnerable cannot be logically answered based on what we know from the story, then it results in a plot hole as the story, at least this aspect of it, no longer makes sense within its own rules and consistency. 

 

For instance:

"Naruto is said to have failed the final exams three times (and the exam at the start of the series is his fourth), but is in the same age group as others from his class (who are presumably taking it for the first time). This would mean he must have advanced through the earlier classes much faster than others (notably Sasuke and even Neji) and yet he is called a failure and a dropout."

 

Example and definition provided by tv tropes. 

Edited by Qia, 05 September 2017 - 08:47 PM.

[ThroughWithLove]

I think you're missing his point lol. If his question of why Obito couldn't have gone on with his plan when Naruto would be more vulnerable cannot be logically answered based on what we know from the story, then it results in a plot hole as the story, at least this aspect of it, no longer makes sense within its own rules and consistency. 

 

For instance:

"Naruto is said to have failed the final exams three times (and the exam at the start of the series is his fourth), but is in the same age group as others from his class (who are presumably taking it for the first time). This would mean he must have advanced through the earlier classes much faster than others (notably Sasuke and even Neji) and yet he is called a failure and a dropout."

 

Example and definition provided by tv tropes. 

 

That and plot holes cannot be invalidated with headcanon and fan theory (i.e. "The Eagles were prohibited"). Truth is, Tolkien simply didn't think of it at the time he wrote it. An oversight if you will. In Naruto's case, Kishimoto was making it up as he went along and was getting increasingly lazy.  

 

 

Who says Obito even had this plan during that time? That's the flaw, really. 

 

Who says he didn't? What is stopping him from exercising these obvious solutions to his only obstacles in bringing his plans to fruition? Plot hole.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 05 September 2017 - 09:20 PM.

[ThroughWithLove]

 

1: It's neither head canon or fan theory, it's actually part of the lore.

 

2: This is a non-argument then. If you do not know if he even desired it at this time, how could it be a feasible plan? 

 

1. Book, page number and quotes please.

 

2. I repeat: "When we have a simpler avenue not taken or even addressed to solve a goal or obstacle in the plot, we have a plot hole." 

 

Also . . .

 

We do know he desired to destroy Konoha, but he was not collecting tailed beasts at this time. 

 

Um . . . he extracted Kurama out of Kushina.

 

And none of that explains why he simply doesn't refrain from bothering with Kage summit, activates the Juubi and capture Naruto himself with the leaf village be completely unprepared.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 05 September 2017 - 09:52 PM.

[Qia]

Even if we were to assume it was extracted for the Ten-Tails even then, one can easily assume that he couldn't when Naruto was young because the seal wasn't weak at the time. I mean, it was specifically stated that he knew that the seal would be weak during childbirth and he specifically waited till that time for his own reasons (whatever they are I forget if they were ever stated). But it's not really much of plot hole as the example I gave before IMO. 

[ThroughWithLove]

Even if we were to assume it was extracted for the Ten-Tails even then, one can easily assume that he couldn't when Naruto was young because the seal wasn't weak at the time. I mean, it was specifically stated that he knew that the seal would be weak during childbirth and he specifically waited till that time for his own reasons (whatever they are I forget if they were ever stated). But it's not really much of plot hole as the example I gave before IMO. 

 

The seal being weakened appears to be what enabled him to instantly remove Kurama from Kushina as opposed to having to undergo the whole multi-day ritual we saw with Gaara. For our purposes, I really don't see what was stopping Obito from capturing academy Naruto via teleporation, hauling him off to Nagato and acquiring the kyuubi no different than they had with Gaara's tailed beast.

 

 

 

1: They are detailed in both the Similarrion and Morgoth's Ring. The latter has a specific passage on it in the chapter Annal's of Aman.

 

Granted these were written -after- the Lord of the Rings, so I will give it that much. It's still more of a Deus Ex Machina, they're literally employed in the Hobbit to fix an unsolvable problem, probably why Tolkein recommended they not be relied upon as a plot device, because they're a bit faulty.

 

2: What is there to address if it wasn't a plan at the time? This is really the problem with what if's, and why this isn't a plot hole. He extracted Kurama out of Kushina to destroy Konoha, not to get things towards Ten Tails. Ten Tails was not begun until later. 

 

1.  I've read Tolkien's books and there is positively no explanation put forward on the subject (which is why the issue is debated to this very day), which is why I asked for a quote; I know that none exist and that any efforts to find one would be futile. What we do have is a lot of fan theory and headcanon. Your "they weren't allowed to interfere" is one of several popular attempts to explain the issue, but the truth is that Tolkien simply didn't think about it. And deus ex machina and plot hole are not mutually exclusive. In our case, it's both.

 

2. You saying "it wasn't a plan at the time" is something you completely made up. That's something that ought to have been established by the story. It's not the reader's job to make stuff up in order to make the story make sense. Otherwise, the author should be paying us to do his job. If we can use fan theory and headcanon to say a story is good, what is stopping us from using fan theory and headcanon to say it's bad? And we know that extracting all of the tailed beast to revive the Juubi and achieve the infinite Tsukiyomi was Madara's plan from the beginning, so I really have no idea what you're even trying to argue here. 

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 05 September 2017 - 10:42 PM.

[sushi.]

I think Obito extracted Kurama as part of the plan, because it was revealed that the brain behind him was really Madara. And I think he had it in his mind all along to create the 10 tails but was waiting for the right moment.

[ThroughWithLove]

1: I gave you sources, I even gave you a chapter to look through. They are servants of Manwe, and they answer to him. They are literally metaphorical arch angels that serve the Valar Deux Ex Machina, as I said. It is your choice not to read the provided information. That is fine. But I provided it. I don't have this on hand to just throw out a direct quote, instead I have summaries that point to these sources, and not just my own. Sure, a quote would be better. But you can re-read it for yourself and find it.

 

2: Reversing this: How do you know it was a plan at the time? Further, a Plot Hole is not "What if's", it is what options are available at the time of the presentation? I.E., we are being shown this plan from Akatsuki now, and they are working on it now. You say: Why didn't he do so earlier, and it's the same reason why they chose to act in the moment they did: Now is the moment they decided they were ready.

 

I.E., The Obito one is not a plot hole. At the very least, the LOTR one is one you can debate back to forth on. 

 

1. I asked for a quote. Telling me to "go read the material yourself" is a waste of time if I've already read it. Show me the exact quote from the source material where it is established that the eagles are prohibited from acting in the fashion they did in the parody video I provided. Don't give me head canon, don't give me theory and don't give me glorified fanfiction either. Give me hard solid quotes. And each book should be available online via pdf, so don't bother hiding behind that excuse.

 

2. Again, I have no idea what or why you are even arguing about since Madara (and Kaguya as a result) planned the entire scheme from the beginning. But even if that weren't the case, it wouldn't matter. We have an obvious solution to Obito's problem. If there is a reason as to why he doesn't exercise this solution, it needs to be addressed by the story. Saying "he might have been planning something else at the time" is an explanation you made up and not one based on the source material. This is bad logic as you can basically make stuff up to excuse any fault or plot hole in any story. And if it's my job, not the author's job, to write the story, I need to be given a paycheck first and foremost.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 05 September 2017 - 11:11 PM.

[ThroughWithLove]

1: Happy to, though I've yet to find any online pdfs after quite a bit of searching.
 
2:It's not even made up. :/ In the years prior, Obito forms the Akatsuki, gathers man power and resources, and then sets off on gathering each of the Jinchuuriki. You're also ignoring that the Third Hokage works to keep the events secret, so Minato's enemies would not come after him, I.E, Obito. So it is there, you're just missing it.

1. Type Lord of the rings PDF into google.

2. It's made up and the fact that you've changed your argument from "well maybe Obito wasn't interested in tailed beast" to "he didn't go after Naruto because he was in the process of getting the akatsuki together" is proof. Neither explanation is offered in the manga; you are making stuff up as you go. Prove me wrong and provide the chapter and page where this stuff is addressed. Don't just pull stuff out of thin air.

You are ignoring the fact that the Akatsuki was fully aware that Naruto was the Kurama's host as we see from the encounter with Itachi and Kisame, so there's zero reason for Obito not to teleport to young Naruto's house while he is asleep and abduct him himself. This is an obvious solution to his problems, but there is no explanation in the narrative to address it. Plot hole. One amongst many.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 06 September 2017 - 04:51 AM.

[ThroughWithLove]

 

First off, I don't pull things out of nowhere. At the very least, if I'm not finding the time to go through the source material, I use the wiki and substantiate it with many other sources, and then state it, particularly if the material is not readily available, as in 1.

 

Second off, that's Obito's move. What does everyone else do? First, we're assuming first, that he can just move undetected, ignoring the existence of the Konoha barrier team, second that he would just know where he lives. Instead, he sent Itachi and Kisame after them, and chose to keep himself veiled. There are in-universe explanations. 

 

It's not a plot hole. 

 

There -are- plot holes, but this isn't one of them. 

 

1. Any explanation you can't attribute to the source material is made up out of thin air. And of course you're not finding the time to go through the source material. Because there isn't anything in the source material that clarifies on why the eagles could not be used to subvert the entire plot of Lord of the Rings. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. The wiki substantiates nada and even clarifies that your fan theory and others are speculation.  We also see your fan theory and others refuted in other places (see point number 8). Lord of the Rings, like many other tremendously great works, is not perfect. That's really all there is to it.

 

2. A barrier was specifically erected to protect Minato and Kushina when she was giving birth to Naruto, and said barrier specifically had no effect on Obito's teleportation, as noted by Minato. So he can move undetected and he most certainly won't have difficulty in finding out where a ninja as flamboyant and outspoken as Naruto lives. There is no in-universe explanation. What we have is you making stuff up. And if we can do that fill up a plot hole here, we can do that fill up the plot hole anywhere.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 06 September 2017 - 03:02 PM.

[Qia]

So I did a little searching and found that, even as great as the HP series is (and it truly is), even it has its own plot holes similar to the above mentioned one. For instance: Voldemort's timing 

 

"This particular plot ‘hole’ is very clearly a structural element to the books, but we’re including it anyway, because Lord Voldemort is bizarrely predictable with his timing – always attacking at the end of the school year. The Dark Lord attacks Harry Potter directly at the end of Years 1, 2, 4, 5, and 7… and we’re guessing that he’s not just concerned about disruption for the students. Why wouldn’t Voldemort make more than one attempt on the Philosopher’s Stone during the school year? Why did it take exactly a school year for Tom Marvolo’s spirit to taunt students about the Chamber of Secrets? Oh, and (more on this in another entry) why construct such a gloriously convoluted plot to get Harry into the Triwizard Tournament? It often seems as though these nefarious plans are designed specifically to take an entire school year."

 

I got this from screen rant by the way if you're interested in reading more. But this is just my way of emphasizing the above-mentioned point: That even the best works have plot holes that the author may have missed as a story is being constructed and that you won't really notice until the end. Therefore, there really is no need to strongly defend everything Kishi has done by relying on assumptions.   

Edited by Qia, 06 September 2017 - 03:38 PM.

[ThroughWithLove]

 

1: In Universe Explanations are not thin air. I will and have conceded the debatability of it, and will move on. 

 

2: This Barrier is not the same as the other barrier though. We cannot assume the circumstances would be the same. All of that said, it is notable that the Third Hokage made precauations to protect Naruto. That his enemies found him later is notable, and that he was found later and Itachi and Kisame sent notable. But Obito at this time is discreet, else why not send all the Akatsuki? 

 

There is no proof of them being different barriers. What's more, we know that the one Obito bypassed was the most powerful:

 

 

 

You ask why he doesn't send the entire akatsuki and we have the exact same answer: Plot Hole. Had the entire Akatsuki raided villages one by one, they would've succeeded in their plans. Instead, Kishimoto wrote them to attack in pairs, allowing the heroes to barely overcome them each time. Kind of like how we see in movies when the henchmen all decide to chivalrously take on the hero/heroine one at a time as opposed to rushing him/her from all sides at the exact same time. 

 

 

So I did a little searching and found that, even as great as the HP series is (and it truly is), even it has its own plot holes similar to the above mentioned one. For instance: Voldemort's timing 

 

"This particular plot ‘hole’ is very clearly a structural element to the books, but we’re including it anyway, because Lord Voldemort is bizarrely predictable with his timing – always attacking at the end of the school year. The Dark Lord attacks Harry Potter directly at the end of Years 1, 2, 4, 5, and 7… and we’re guessing that he’s not just concerned about disruption for the students. Why wouldn’t Voldemort make more than one attempt on the Philosopher’s Stone during the school year? Why did it take exactly a school year for Tom Marvolo’s spirit to taunt students about the Chamber of Secrets? Oh, and (more on this in another entry) why construct such a gloriously convoluted plot to get Harry into the Triwizard Tournament? It often seems as though these nefarious plans are designed specifically to take an entire school year."

 

I got this from screen rant by the way if you're interested in reading more. But this is just my way of emphasizing the above-mentioned point: That even the best works have plot holes that the author may have missed as a story is being constructed and that you won't really notice until the end. Therefore, there really is no need to strongly defend everything Kishi has done by relying on assumptions.   

 

Exactly. No work is perfect.

 

On the other hand .  . .

 

 

 

Thanks.

 

Yes, I know I don't have to, plot holes don't != bad writing, particularly when as silly as they seem when you look at them, they exist because of narrative flow (See HP above) and that simply, the standard idea is dull. They're even more frequent in film with the necessity of cutting scenes. 

 

I disagree on the Obito one still, but I've said my part and will let it rest from my side. 

 

Plot holes are bad writing. In the case of Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings, the bad writing is kept to such a minimum that it is hardly noticeable. Whereas with Naruto, particularly throughout the final third of the manga, bad writing is frequent and rampant and a testament to the author's refusal to seriously plan ahead.  And if the author didn't take the time to seriously plan out basic things like Obito's schemes and motivations, it makes you wonder what else he didn't exactly take the time to think about.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 06 September 2017 - 05:13 PM.

[tricksie]

Oh, and (more on this in another entry) why construct such a gloriously convoluted plot to get Harry into the Triwizard Tournament? It often seems as though these nefarious plans are designed specifically to take an entire school year."

Yes - I always thought this way about Itachi's convoluted plot with Sasuke. That slaughtering Sasuke's family, then mentally torturing him for years was all part of Itachi's master plan to protect/improve Sasuke? WTF? Just like the TriWizard tournament - there are literally so many ways that whole 'gloriously convoluted' plan could go wrong. 

 

(But then of course, Itachi's plan was brought to us by Konoha's number one genocidal pacifist. So his thinking's pretty flawed to begin with.)

[Nate River]

Yes - I always thought this way about Itachi's convoluted plot with Sasuke. That slaughtering Sasuke's family, then mentally torturing him for years was all part of Itachi's master plan to protect/improve Sasuke? WTF? Just like the TriWizard tournament - there are literally so many ways that whole 'gloriously convoluted' plan could go wrong. 

 

(But then of course, Itachi's plan was brought to us by Konoha's number one genocidal pacifist. So his thinking's pretty flawed to begin with.)

 

Wasn't Itachi's plan to set Sasuke up to kill I'm so he could die by an Uchicha as penance for the murder?. It's why I always refer to him as "Good" Itachi. What he did to Sasuke was reprehensible. The village forced an impossible choice on him, but his decision to torture his brother was 100% Itachi. I don't think its convulated, but its not thought through.

 

What was Plan B if Sasuke behaved differently? LIke if Sasuke said, I'm not going to be like Itachi. I'm going became an upstanding citizen who saves people and kids. Maybe like an orphanage for kids who lost their parents. Then he could run one instead of the serial killer who currently does. Would he torture Sasuke some more? Or what if Sasuke went through with his threat to destroy Konoha which Itachi murdered his family to protect?

 

I can just see it: Ghost Itachi looking at Konoha as its burns to the ground. "Oh, kitten."

 

Speaking of Itachi and I supposed to consider him redeemed? Naruto's reaction (or lack thereof) to the whole thing really sends a muddy message as to what the manga wants the reader to feel. Sympathy for the hard choice? Revulsion for the selfish and inhuman follow-up? And I'm not even getting to the part where the manga secretly implies Sasuke is the only Uchiha not in on it (besides Shisui and Itachi) and is under 12.

 

Character shield set to maximum!

[tricksie]

 

Wasn't Itachi's plan to set Sasuke up to kill I'm so he could die by an Uchicha as penance for the murder?. It's why I always refer to him as "Good" Itachi. What he did to Sasuke was reprehensible. The village forced an impossible choice on him, but his decision to torture his brother was 100% Itachi. I don't think its convulated, but its not thought through.

 

What was Plan B if Sasuke behaved differently? LIke if Sasuke said, I'm not going to be like Itachi. I'm going became an upstanding citizen who saves people and kids. Maybe like an orphanage for kids who lost their parents. Then he could run one instead of the serial killer who currently does. Would he torture Sasuke some more? Or what if Sasuke went through with his threat to destroy Konoha which Itachi murdered his family to protect?

 

I can just see it: Ghost Itachi looking at Konoha as its burns to the ground. "Oh, kitten."

 

Speaking of Itachi and I supposed to consider him redeemed? Naruto's reaction (or lack thereof) to the whole thing really sends a muddy message as to what the manga wants the reader to feel. Sympathy for the hard choice? Revulsion for the selfish and inhuman follow-up? And I'm not even getting to the part where the manga secretly implies Sasuke is the only Uchiha not in on it (besides Shisui and Itachi) and is under 12.

 

Character shield set to maximum!

yes yes yes

 

you're right about Itachi as 'good' and 'bad' - one being the pacifist, and one being the maniacal torturer. But that single thread of him having a good reason or one time being a peace loving child of the village is almost microscopic compared to the crimes he committed over and over again, all in the name of being a pacifist.

 

Because you know, 'bad Itachi' had to have killed more people after he joined Akatsuki. They wouldn't have let him in otherwise. So it's really not just the Itachi was bad to Sasuke for the sake of Sasuke. Itachi would have been all over the place, killing heads of state and other jinchurikis then stripping them of their demons, and for what? All so he could 'protect' Sasuke? (No wonder Sasuke's such a mess - just sayin.)

 

And yes - what would have happened if Sasuke had not gone according to Good/Bad Itachi's diabolical, mustache-twirling plan? What if Sasuke had become the ultimate pacifist - and turned away from being a shinobi and instead became a civilian? What if he blinded himself to foil Itachi? What if he threw away the power that was so desired by Obito, Danzo, etc? 

 

Or what if went the opposite way, and Sasuke became the villain that Obito, Madara and Pain all wished they could be? That when Sasuke found out how he'd been manipulated by so many people, including his own brother, that he just became unhinged? So instead of Itachi creating the ultimate protector for Konoha, what if he ended up creating its ultimate destroyer?

 

Either of those options — A, Sasuke as ultimate pacifist or B, Sasuke as ultimate villain — seem like a more logical fall out from Itachi's murderous meddling. In fact, weighing it like that, it makes it really unlikely that Sasuke just accepted that all those deaths were really for his benefit. That Itachi loved his brother so much he killed all these people just for him. 

 

But that's the way it went for Sasuke - he never looked too deeply at Itachi, what he did or why. Instead he just cried about it. On a rocky cliff. While looking into the sunset. He never felt like a pawn of Itachi's. He never really railed against him or what he did. And he never questioned all the people who died because of Itachi's plan.

 

And you're right about the last - Itachi had to have killed innocent people. Baby Uchihas. Any number of targets for the Akatsuki. Anyone who got in the way of his master plan (that Sasuke was then forced to accept and play his part in). But Sasuke never once looks at what Itachi did or feels remorse for any of the blood spilled on his account. He just accepts that all those people died because his brother loved him. 

 

Itachi, Sasuke, Obito and Madara all have a super better-than-everyone-else complex. Must be an uchiha thing. Because they all have no problem taking, planning or killing anything/anyone that doesn't server their purpose. 

 

On the one hand, we're supposed to understand that they're the 'cursed clan' because they love too much and it makes them crazy (or some weak crap explanation that was just to build in sympathy). But on the other hand, they all act like dictators. Every one of them. 

 

I had always hoped that Sai would turn out to be an orphaned Uchiha, and he would represent the rebuilding of the clan in a gentler nature without the eye powers (like Sasuke's mom clearly was). That way Sasuke's goal of rebuilding the clan might be resolved without the strife of the past generations being passed on. Like Naruto's whole theme of breaking the old cycle. But clearly that didn't happen!!

[Gurmeet]

1. Type Lord of the rings PDF into google.

2. It's made up and the fact that you've changed your argument from "well maybe Obito wasn't interested in tailed beast" to "he didn't go after Naruto because he was in the process of getting the akatsuki together" is proof. Neither explanation is offered in the manga; you are making stuff up as you go. Prove me wrong and provide the chapter and page where this stuff is addressed. Don't just pull stuff out of thin air.

You are ignoring the fact that the Akatsuki was fully aware that Naruto was the Kurama's host as we see from the encounter with Itachi and Kisame, so there's zero reason for Obito not to teleport to young Naruto's house while he is asleep and abduct him himself. This is an obvious solution to his problems, but there is no explanation in the narrative to address it. Plot hole. One amongst many.

every fiction have some kind of plot hole.