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What if Sasuke had killed Sakura during the Land of Iron arc?


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#41 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 02:52 PM

The problem is that kishimoto would never put Sasuke in a situation here he was beyond redemption. 

 

Oh don't get me wrong. I highly doubt Kishi would ever have the courage to go through with something like this. I'm simply speaking from the standpoint of what Naruto would do, based on the personality he was established to have at around this time and the remainder of the manga. A lot of responses here are attributing to what the old Naruto would do, but I think the Naruto deranged and psychopathically obsessed with Sasuke is a different Naruto entirely.  And frankly, the dude is at bare minimum a sociopath. This is not me being hyperbolic. This is me making a plain observation.

 

 

naruto-1226710.jpg

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His "anger" in regards to what Sasuke just did is practically nonexistent. And rather than lash out at him about it, he immediately tries to rationalize Sasuke's behavior.  Add Sakura's death to the mix and I sincerely don't believe much would change here in the long term. I'm willing to grant that he might, at best, temporarily blow a fuse or behave like he briefly did when Neji died, but the minute he does the little rasengan/chidori clash and they look into each other's minds, you're gonna have Naruto walking away from the encounter "understanding" why Sasuke did what he did and that it's not his fault Sakura died, but rather the cycle of hatred's fault. Perhaps Naruto would then take it upon himself to swear vengeance against the "cycle of hatred" by putting an end to it once and for all. 

 

 

Theme: I doubt forgiveness/redemption is the primary theme or, at least, in the form we saw it. Most of the audience would never accept it and the hope is that someone writing it would see that. That said, its these kinds of tests that I wish the manga did. One of the reasons I hate the end is that Naruto's answer and belief system are never really tested, so its hard for me to get behind it. The closest is Pain, but Naruto is bailed out from the consequences by Gedo Mazo. The Third's hesitation on Orochimaru had tragic consequences. Naruto redeems/forgives some terrible people, but it never nukes in his face. His plot armor always protects him. Anyways, I think the theme is totally different or we get a much grayer if not totally dark view of these themes, which almost everything that follows.

 

Besides obsessed pairing fans who merely looked at things from a "My ship is gonna happen now! Yay!", most of the audience would most certainly reject it. To my knowledge, most of the audience doesn't even buy the "Obito is a cool guy" crap, based on all the memes that have been created since that chapter was produced.

 

From a thematic perspective, I think Kishimoto actually believed he was having Naruto's belief system tested, which is why we got the infamous and pathetic hyperventilating scene from him. The problem was the execution. Any time accountability even remotely seems to be an issue, Kishimoto immediately cleans the slate by establishing that "it's not the bad man's fault." Which is what Naruto's answer here is when he confronts Sasuke during this scene. Naruto understands why he did it, so Sasuke is not truly at fault. Any time Naruto understands why the bad man did it, the bad man can be forgiven. Which is why I have the mindset that Naruto would forgive Sasuke even if he did murder Sakura. Ultimately, I think Naruto would determine it's not Sasuke's fault and that external factors are to blame for why Sakura died. And if we take into account the fact that Naruto's motivations in regards to keeping his promise to Sakura were retconned downplayed a little over a dozen chapters earlier, her death is really not going to change things to the degree readers might expect. If he can forgive the dude who murdered his parents (and even calm him the coolest guy ever shortly after said forgiveness), he can forgive a dude who murdered the girl who isn't as important as we were lead to believe.


Edited by ThroughWithLove, 24 October 2017 - 02:54 PM.

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#42 James S Cassidy

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 04:08 PM

Kishi is bad, but Rowling isn't much better. Saying "Kishimoto isn't Rowling" is like saying the Browns aren't the Colts. They both sucked lol

What I mean by that is how they handle a majoir character dying. Can I put Harry Potter Spoilers? I mean it has been a while. Look at the way Snape killed Dumbledore compared to Sasuke's attempt at killing Sakura and Naruto's reaction.

After Snap killed Dumbledore, Harry was pissed. Pissed enough that he wanted to kill Snape so badly. Harry was like this when anybody he loved was killed. He had to fight against the emotions that killing is wrong even if justified. That the law should be the means to persecute. (Although, I think having your souls sucked out and eaten is a far worse than death, but this is a different story.)

Then JK Rowling wrote Snapes story that is probably the most tragic and far better than Sasuke's story of revenge. "Always." Snape was actually a good guy. but very few knew this. People thought he was a hard ass, but it was only because he secluded himself from the rest. I would go so far to say that Rowling had more love and thought into Snape than Kishimoto did with Sasuke. In the end, Snape revealed his true self and you realize that everything that occured was a master plan by Dumbledore himself. I could even argue Snape was better than Dumbledore in terms of caring for Harry, but again that is a different story.
 

 

 

Oh don't get me wrong. I highly doubt Kishi would ever have the courage to go through with something like this. I'm simply speaking from the standpoint of what Naruto would do, based on the personality he was established to have at around this time and the remainder of the manga. A lot of responses here are attributing to what the old Naruto would do, but I think the Naruto deranged and psychopathically obsessed with Sasuke is a different Naruto entirely.  And frankly, the dude is at bare minimum a sociopath. This is not me being hyperbolic. This is me making a plain observation.

 

His "anger" in regards to what Sasuke just did is practically nonexistent. And rather than lash out at him about it, he immediately tries to rationalize Sasuke's behavior.  Add Sakura's death to the mix and I sincerely don't believe much would change here in the long term. I'm willing to grant that he might, at best, temporarily blow a fuse or behave like he briefly did when Neji died, but the minute he does the little rasengan/chidori clash and they look into each other's minds, you're gonna have Naruto walking away from the encounter "understanding" why Sasuke did what he did and that it's not his fault Sakura died, but rather the cycle of hatred's fault. Perhaps Naruto would then take it upon himself to swear vengeance against the "cycle of hatred" by putting an end to it once and for all. 

 

 

 

Besides obsessed pairing fans who merely looked at things from a "My ship is gonna happen now! Yay!", most of the audience would most certainly reject it. To my knowledge, most of the audience doesn't even buy the "Obito is a cool guy" crap, based on all the memes that have been created since that chapter was produced.

 

From a thematic perspective, I think Kishimoto actually believed he was having Naruto's belief system tested, which is why we got the infamous and pathetic hyperventilating scene from him. The problem was the execution. Any time accountability even remotely seems to be an issue, Kishimoto immediately cleans the slate by establishing that "it's not the bad man's fault." Which is what Naruto's answer here is when he confronts Sasuke during this scene. Naruto understands why he did it, so Sasuke is not truly at fault. Any time Naruto understands why the bad man did it, the bad man can be forgiven. Which is why I have the mindset that Naruto would forgive Sasuke even if he did murder Sakura. Ultimately, I think Naruto would determine it's not Sasuke's fault and that external factors are to blame for why Sakura died. And if we take into account the fact that Naruto's motivations in regards to keeping his promise to Sakura were retconned downplayed a little over a dozen chapters earlier, her death is really not going to change things to the degree readers might expect. If he can forgive the dude who murdered his parents (and even calm him the coolest guy ever shortly after said forgiveness), he can forgive a dude who murdered the girl who isn't as important as we were lead to believe.

I would have to agree with you on this one. Kishimoto would just have Naruto sweep it under the rug and continue to believe "Saskeh" could be saved, but like mentioned too Kishimoto would never let Sasuke cross that line. Sasuke wasn't held accountable for anything he had done no matter what he had done.

This even happens in real life too. Especially now with the....ahem certain political views and cops, but that is not something I will get into here.

However, this "noone is responsible for their own actions" is utter crap that needs to stop. Sasuke killed people, allied with terrorist organization, took the world Hostage pratically, and threatened world with domination, but...none of it was his fault. How? Do you really think Sasuke has no opinion of his own? That everyting he does it because someone brainwashed him? I guess so. If Sasuke killed Sakura....the only thing that would change is SS and NS would not become canon because "everyone hated Sakura." Naruto would cry for a moment, move on in like 5 seconds and bang Hinata....again. There is nothing else that would happen.

I mean at this point in the story we knew Sasuke could do anything and get away with it because Naruto had a hard on for him. It pisses me off so very much, but this is how Kishimoto wanted it. He wanted SNS to be something huge.


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#43 TheFirstEvil100

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 04:46 PM

@James I agree if Sasuke did kill Sakura Naruto would cry from at the very least 5 seconds then move on then forgive him.

One thing I don't agree on this is Hinata i mean this is Kishi after all so I'd say he would then use Ino like he used Sakura.

It's sad when you think about it as the image or link to it had more too heart to it.

#44 James S Cassidy

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 04:48 PM

@James I agree if Sasuke did kill Sakura Naruto would cry from at the very least 5 seconds then move on then forgive him.

One thing I don't agree on this is Hinata i mean this is Kishi after all so I'd say he would then use Ino like he used Sakura.

It's sad when you think about it as the image or link to it had more too heart to it.

You mean like have Sasuke move onto Ino out of nowhere because Ino saved Sasuke from darkness? :wallbash:


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#45 TheFirstEvil100

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 05:00 PM

You mean like have Sasuke move onto Ino out of nowhere because Ino saved Sasuke from darkness? :wallbash:


Yes he would build up that Naruto likes Ino cause of something bs not sure but in the end Ino like Naruto would forgive Sasuke for killing Sakura with Ino even getting married to him, but Sarada would still look a lot like Karin.

As for Sakura the only ones who would be hurt the most are her parents. They would not forgive Sasuke and hate Naruto as well and the bs that Naruto would come up with on why Sasuke should be forgiving for killing their daughter.

That the one good thing that makes you feel sorry for someone who has lost a child.

#46 James S Cassidy

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 05:06 PM

If Sakura's parents even exist at all...

I wonder how any parent would feel to have their daughter be with a man who treat her like crap and tried to kill her on several occasions.

I wonder how would you feel if your daughter was gonna marry a guy like that? Would you accept it?

It reminds me of this. If real fathers are this strict about this, why would Sakura's parents be so open to it? Again, Kishimoto....you need realism.


Edited by James S Cassidy, 24 October 2017 - 05:08 PM.

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#47 Yyubie

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 05:25 PM

The theme of the manga itself is , always try to understand other people pain , shinobi is those who endure , and forgiving. Just for these you should already know what kind of person the writer is. That's why it's hard to picture him making Sasuke kill Sakura.


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#48 James S Cassidy

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 05:40 PM

The theme of the manga itself is , always try to understand other people pain , shinobi is those who endure , and forgiving. Just for these you should already know what kind of person the writer is. That's why it's hard to picture him making Sasuke kill Sakura.

It should also be noted that just because you understand the reasons doesn't mean you have to condone said actions. The condoning part went over Kishimoto's head.

Reminds me of Overlord where Ainz beat Clementine.

"Oh no, you misunderstand. It would be hypocritical for me to say that this is an emotion response. They were an obstacle in your way. I would have done the same thing, but they were important to my plan and you killed them. Which means you are now in my way and I have to get rid of you."

After Ainz kills Clementine: "I forgot to mention...I am a hypocrite."

So, you can write a story with depth which showcases multiple reasons, but also have the characters admit that while one can use logic to justify their actions...the truth of the matter is...emotions and logic do not work in unison and to use emotions to explain logic or logic to explain emotions....is not a good thing.

We all have choices and we all have reasons for said choices, but that doesn't excuse you from making said choices if those choices are bad. If that was the case, the prisons and jails would be empty or possibly all the good people would be in jail while the wicked roam free.


Edited by James S Cassidy, 24 October 2017 - 06:11 PM.

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#49 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 05:59 PM

It should also be noted that just because you understand the reasons doesn't mean you have to condone said actions. The condoning part went over Kishimoto's head.

Reminds me of Overlord where Ainz beat Clemintine.

"Oh no, you misunderstand. It would hypocritical for me to say that this is an emotion response. They were an obstacle in your way. I would have done the same thing, but they were important to my plan and you killed them. Which means you are now in my way and I have to get rid of you."

After Ainz kills Clemintine: "I forgot to mention...I am a hypocrite."

So, you can write a story with depth which showcases multiple reasons, but also have the characters admit that while one can use logic to justify their actions...the truth of the matter is...emotions and logic do not work in unison and to u dose emotions to explain logic or logic to explain emotions....is not a good thing.

We all have choices and we all have reasons for said choices, but that doesn't excuse you from making said choices if those choices are bad. If that was the case, the prisons and jails would be empty or possibly all the good people would be in jail while the wicked roam free.

 

Exactly, and the fact Ainz also had lied to Clementine when he told her that he didn't care about the people he killed showed he was still human, which shows how well in-depth he written. Reminds me of Shokugeki no Soma when Soma took on Eizan and claimed he only challenged him for his own selfish needs when he was doing it for the sake of his friends, which is how you REALLY do something like that in the long run, by being truthful to who you are, even if you try to mask why you do something.


Edited by Bryon_Konoha_Ninja, 24 October 2017 - 06:00 PM.


#50 gamma

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 06:55 PM

If Sakura's parents even exist at all...


I’ve always imagined them being migrants for some reason.

#51 HalfDemonInuyasha

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 08:34 PM

 

Oh don't get me wrong. I highly doubt Kishi would ever have the courage to go through with something like this. I'm simply speaking from the standpoint of what Naruto would do, based on the personality he was established to have at around this time and the remainder of the manga. A lot of responses here are attributing to what the old Naruto would do, but I think the Naruto deranged and psychopathically obsessed with Sasuke is a different Naruto entirely.  And frankly, the dude is at bare minimum a sociopath. This is not me being hyperbolic. This is me making a plain observation.

 

 

naruto-1226710.jpg

naruto-1226711.jpg

naruto-1226712.jpg

 

His "anger" in regards to what Sasuke just did is practically nonexistent. And rather than lash out at him about it, he immediately tries to rationalize Sasuke's behavior.  Add Sakura's death to the mix and I sincerely don't believe much would change here in the long term. I'm willing to grant that he might, at best, temporarily blow a fuse or behave like he briefly did when Neji died, but the minute he does the little rasengan/chidori clash and they look into each other's minds, you're gonna have Naruto walking away from the encounter "understanding" why Sasuke did what he did and that it's not his fault Sakura died, but rather the cycle of hatred's fault. Perhaps Naruto would then take it upon himself to swear vengeance against the "cycle of hatred" by putting an end to it once and for all. 

 

 

 

Besides obsessed pairing fans who merely looked at things from a "My ship is gonna happen now! Yay!", most of the audience would most certainly reject it. To my knowledge, most of the audience doesn't even buy the "Obito is a cool guy" crap, based on all the memes that have been created since that chapter was produced.

 

From a thematic perspective, I think Kishimoto actually believed he was having Naruto's belief system tested, which is why we got the infamous and pathetic hyperventilating scene from him. The problem was the execution. Any time accountability even remotely seems to be an issue, Kishimoto immediately cleans the slate by establishing that "it's not the bad man's fault." Which is what Naruto's answer here is when he confronts Sasuke during this scene. Naruto understands why he did it, so Sasuke is not truly at fault. Any time Naruto understands why the bad man did it, the bad man can be forgiven. Which is why I have the mindset that Naruto would forgive Sasuke even if he did murder Sakura. Ultimately, I think Naruto would determine it's not Sasuke's fault and that external factors are to blame for why Sakura died. And if we take into account the fact that Naruto's motivations in regards to keeping his promise to Sakura were retconned downplayed a little over a dozen chapters earlier, her death is really not going to change things to the degree readers might expect. If he can forgive the dude who murdered his parents (and even calm him the coolest guy ever shortly after said forgiveness), he can forgive a dude who murdered the girl who isn't as important as we were lead to believe.

And this is an example of why Naruto is an opposite extreme of ones like Sasuke and Madara and just as bad for the world as they are.

I mean, first Naruto tries to find someone else to blame to "justify" Sasuke's actions, but when he confronts the ones "responsible" for Sasuke's actions (Obito), he learns there was someone/something else behind them (Madara), but then it goes even beyond them, so then where would it end except for the "cleansing" of the whole world? It's exactly like Sasuke's need for someone/something to blame so he can continue his quest for "vengeance" and both of them would end either in them dying along the way or forcing the entire world to conform to their ideals and beliefs or face the consequences.


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#52 AHK

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 09:03 PM

They and I would let it happen. You can't control your daughter, the heart wants what the heart wants.


That's an embarrassing, disturbing, and sad admission.

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#53 Qia

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 09:30 PM

That's an embarrassing, disturbing, and sad admission.

I think what she means is that while Sakura should be advised by her parents it's not like they can hold her down and keep her captive. They'll just have to trust that she knows what she's getting into

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#54 Yojeveka

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 10:11 PM

I think what she means is that while Sakura should be advised by her parents it's not like they can hold her down and keep her captive. They'll just have to trust that she knows what she's getting into

 

Yeah... Then what? Sit down and see her daughter being miserable along with their granddaughter? 


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#55 ThroughWithLove

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 10:33 PM

 

Yeah... Then what? Sit down and see her daughter being miserable along with their granddaughter? 

 

I think any sensible parent is going to take issue with their daughter wanting to shack it up with a man who tried to kill her like a few weeks earlier. :ermm:


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#56 Qia

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 10:35 PM

 

Yeah... Then what? Sit down and see her daughter being miserable along with their granddaughter? 

Well no. I'm sure in some way they help her. But they can't force her to like...stay away from him and such. Not sure what you expect =/ She's her own person after all. 


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#57 Yojeveka

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 10:42 PM

Well no. I'm sure in some way they help her. But they can't force her to like...stay away from him and such. Not sure what you expect =/ She's her own person after all. 

 

I expect to see good parents, but apparently that doesn't exist in the sequel. 

 

 

 

I think any sensible parent is going to take issue with their daughter wanting to shack it up with a man who tried to kill her like a few weeks earlier. :ermm:

 

I guess just "Believing in her" is good enough  :ermm:


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#58 Yyubie

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 10:43 PM

 

I think any sensible parent is going to take issue with their daughter wanting to shack it up with a man who tried to kill her like a few weeks earlier. :ermm:

You think Sakura going to tell her parents , "Hey mom , dad i want to marry this guy that really handsome and cool and he likes my forehead but he try to kill me several times , please me give me your blessing!" :lmao: :lmao:

I mean i doubt her parents knows what kind of man Sasuke is and Sakura keep the murder attempt secret from them. Are they even still exist?? I mean we saw boruto and himaw visiting their grand parents house but did we ever see Salad visit her grand parent home??. I mean if Salad wants to find out everything about her parents , logically the first thing is to ask her grand parents. But she didn't do it instead look into a F-ing library. Sakura parents either already dead or the writer/SP forgot about them being exist :lmao: .


Edited by Yyubie, 24 October 2017 - 10:44 PM.

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#59 Qia

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 11:07 PM

 

I expect to see good parents, but apparently that doesn't exist in the sequel. 

 

? Again I ask, what do you want them to do. You talk as if Sakura is a child when, by now, she's a grown ass woman who's going to make her decisions, with her parents' approval or not. 


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#60 TheFirstEvil100

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 11:36 PM

 

Yeah... Then what? Sit down and see her daughter being miserable along with their granddaughter? 

Don't you mean supposed :D

 

After all we all know Sarada is not Sakura's all that is needed is for them to just come out with it then boom her haters can laugh at Sakura.

 

But as a uncle and a older brother I would talk to her, true there is not a lot a parent can do to stop Sakura, but an older brother would be able to tell her this, they wouldn't hold back and say that she shouldn't be with Sasuke I would voice how I feel, that Sasuke is a kitten and see how he treated her and hear what happened this ties into two things as well.

 

1 Sasuke almost kills Sakura, as her brother I would find out and be pissed off and have a good long talk with her.

 

2 if she was killed as a brother I would kill Sasuke, my family are all close will look out for each other so if this happened and she was killed by him and Naruto just shrugged it off I would punch him in the face before kicking him so hard in the nuts,

 

Hell my sisters  boyfriend cheated on her and my older brothers were pissed off.






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