BlackBird19

Just wanted to post a few of my Naruto related sketches just for fun. I recently got the urge to draw again after joining this forum and reading manga again. 

I hadn't drawn anything in almost twenty years. So, I gotta say I surprised myself with how these turned out. I would appreciate some feedback, good or bad from you guys. Thanks.

Of course this a cash grab. It's why we've always stated that the direction the franchise took was a business decision.

Now, please forgive me for this @Tricksie. I must say that I'm not surprised by Analyzer's responses to my last posts, but I now have a genuine dislike for this person. I've been nothing but cordial and respectful of her opinions and even went out of my way to make sure I addressed her by her correct gender. I'm a 39 year old man, by the way, with a healthy amount of life experience.

So, it was so nice to take quick peek at my favorite forum when I got to work tonight after a long day in the hospital with my mother, to find I've been thoroughly insulted by someone who doesn't personally know me simply because I have a differing opinion from hers.

Apparently, according to her, I post haphazardly and offer nothing but conjecture. That I don't have informed opinions, just wild ideas and conspiracies. 

Apparently, I also did not excel at reading and writing during all my years of schooling so my interpretation of the entirety of the manga must be wholly wrong.

However, what has truly put me out is that according to her I am a liar. Since I didn't source something for her in a timely manner, then I must be lying. That is an insult I do not overlook. 

You know Analyzer I never personally doubted who you say you are or the credentials you've given. I never stated you were absolutely wrong in our debates. But for you to think that everyone who has ever been in the industries you initially were in, have shared the same types of experiences you had, and all over the world mind you. Just goes to show how close minded and limited your thinking truly is. It is narcissistic, naïve and to be honest just plain ignorant. 

If you feel insulted, I don't care. You certainly didn't spare my feelings. This will be the last time I'll acknowledge you, let alone respond to you. Have a nice life. 

To the mods, I'll completely accept any form punishment you deem worthy for this post. I also apologize for once again taking us off topic. Goodnight.

 

I've worked -in- the writing industry. As an aside, I currently work in the investment industry. I have a sister that works -in- the film industry. I don't know what your experience is, but I know what mine is. T.V. show makers -do- not have the level of say claimed at all in how a manga is written, or a book series, or a game series if its based on that. If anything, when you make something based off a series, you consult with the author to get it right. You don't ask the author to write something the way you want it, you are trying to emulate the author. You study his characters, the background, how he draws if you are animating, etc. If -anything-, it would be credible to say that Kishimoto would have pull in the anime. This is provably true with the Boruto anime, as he particularly gave advice into the first Arc. 

 

 

 

Same as above, really. It's far, far, far more credible, and believable to state that Kishimoto has pull on how his series is done, than the inverse.  

 

Plus you need to answer why. Why would they do it? How in the world it is profitable to end it as they did when spans and spans of manga have done so differently and end just as well? Where is your evidence of this information? It is only unprovable speculation, at most, and conspiracy creating at best. What stops them from making the film non-canon like all of their others, and why is it just this one? All of their other successful material has demonstrated displayed canon events (Games), or just told an unconnected story. 

 

I don't buy into this theory simply because it relies purely on speculation. It is -good- to doubt and question, but I strongly believe this angle of speculation is the wrong path, because you must call your author a liar to do so, and must paint the business bad for... ultimately, picking a pairing over another, which is kind of petty. It is an application of Occam's Razor, frankly, in believing the author over a conspiracy, simply because the former takes far less assumptions. 

 

The truth is that Kishimoto chose this ending, and that is sourced, and I see no reason to doubt that. Love Kishimoto for what he did well, and criticize what he did not. That's the respect I would want. 

First off, this is just a piece of advice, take it or leave it. You really should avoid absolutes. Just because you have some experiences in the industry does not mean that's the way it is across the board. You can only speak of your experiences, not necessarily for anyone else's. Countless stories and reports about the writing and T.V. industry have shown many people have had very different experiences from your own. Experiences that include the changing of stories to suit whoever is footing the bill.

As for the possible reason why. Many of us have given you several already. However, this is the biggest one. They viewed it as more profitable for the main characters of the continuation to be the children of a NH pairing and a SS pairing. That's it. No big conspiracy, just a simple business decision.    

Now to the last, my answer has been a simple one all along. I do not blindly believe what I'm told when my eyes and basic reading comprehension tell me different. If you have such faith in Kishimoto just because he says so, that's fine. I cannot nor will I ever tell you how to think or believe. I can only give you my viewpoint and the logical reasons that helped me form it. 

 

Movies can actually be green lit, particularly successful franchises, and particularly if the prior movie is successful, without a script, and have. Considering that RtN and 615 came out the same year, and that we have no idea when the script was actually complete, I don't buy into the fact that the Anime Company influenced the manga ending. Further, the Anime company -only- knew that NH would have children, and none of the other pairings. It strongly gives to the credibility that the anime company didn't really push things. This is also what I mean by conspiracy theory, I.E., a theory that this big company, and the Editing Company, and ridiculously, sometimes a fanbase did things, pushed for things, ruining what was intended. The original script idea wasn't even about a romance, that came after Kishimoto insisted the story be focused on Naruto, according to the Last interviews. 

 

My question mark use here, FYI, is used as skepticism, here, further laying out that Kaguya's family was mentioned as well. 

 

Later material that builds on the Kaguya element works for more than just Kaguya trying to connect things roughly, I would strongly argue it's the inverse. Firstly, because you don't need a member of her clan as the villain, more so it was highlighted that because it was a member of the clan, it connected to the manga better. We could have picked a different clan altogether. Secondly, it helps give this very recent, remembered villain fresh in people's heads more detail that is missing, allowing expansion of a detail recently immersed in.

 

About the next paragraph, by the definition of facts, Kishimoto said they were intended, and as such, by his words alone that is fact. This does not make a second reading any more unbiased than a first. I read to understand what I missed, and the manga filled that in satisfactorily. There is no bias in this, this is reading to understand. -if- it was not there, how could I understand? There is no more bias involved in my own re-reading than would be your own re-reading, compared to our first reading. If anything, my first reading would be more biased, as I was really not paying attention much to the other pairings, nor, perhaps were some of us seriously, which perhaps was the blindfold over our eyes.

 

Further, some of these interviews are T.V. interviews. Some were done in the States. I don't buy a company outlook conspiracy theory. Frankly, there's zero harm in saying you changed your mind about a pairing half-way through because it didn't work, or that NH seemed the way to better please fans, or that his staff really wanted it, or his wife, or whatever. It doesn't hurt the company at all. Authors tend to be -more- honest and -more- open after their work is finished, because they have no more fear of spoiling anything. Writing also doesn't really work like: "End your story like this and get paid", and I'm sourcing this from experience from the publishing world. Editors suggest things, but there's never anything like that. Even if suggested to get rid of something, an insistent writer can keep it in. New writers tend to listen to their editors a lot more, because they want to keep getting published, but there is never a "End this" in your contract. 

 

Finally, nothing stops the series from continuing regardless of the children. We could have continued on from the Last, dealing with Naruto's adult days. We could have continued on from Naruto's Hokage days, with no children around. Nothing -stops- the franchise from continuing, kids are not a precursor to necessitate continuation. Within the work itself, they are an embellishment of a happy ending, as well as the passing of things from one generation to the next. 

 

 

 

I also think the "True End" chapter's title is being taken way too literally, but I digress. 

 

I don't buy that contract really gave anything if he ended it -specifically- this way. Then you have to question why he is lying about it (There's no reason to do this), why it is a good business decision, and why in the world they could not fit the script to accommodate what he wanted, and so many other holes to fill in, ala, you are making a conspiracy theory.  I personally believe it is far, far, easier to understand that the development to what became of 700 is in the manga, and it's more than just the last hundred chapters. Some started in the first hundred, in the roots. Whether or not the quality is good is completely up for debate. But it's there, objectively there, even. I think you just have to take the time to be open to seeing other possibilities. 

 

As for ending at the Pain Arc, if NS was the plan, and Sasuke did not exist, or was dead, or whatever, sure, you could end it just like that, to be honest. It does in and of itself work as a happy ending even. But there are still some unaddressed things introduced within the arc and before, so it could not just end there.

I'd be more inclined to think like you if the story was a novel. Written and completed and then licensed becoming a franchise later on. That's not the case here because an anime series like Naruto is created to draw more attention toward the manga. Therefore, anime can hold quite a bit of influence over a manga. 

Now I have never been one to state that SP should be the sole focus of the decision, because they are just an anime company. However TV Tokyo, who is highly invested in Naruto and fronts a great deal of the money for all the animations to be produced, does hold that kind of sway. I know this because TV Tokyo listed Naruto as it's top earner last year on the anime side of it's holdings. Even though Naruto anime sales were outdone by two of it's other anime series. What garnered Naruto so much money was it's video game and Chinese mobile app game. Profits which were posted to TV Tokyo and not just Shueisha, SP or Kishimoto.

You would have to be extremely naïve to believe a major national television and media company, who is thoroughly invested in a franchise does not have some serious pull in the way their investment is handled. Especially considering Kishimoto's television interviews were produced and/or aired on TV Tokyo. 

Kishimoto did not write the last. But he did superivse and edit the script, so much so that he makes a comment that he was worried he was frustrating the writers. He wanted them to get it right.

 

The Last was released a month after the last chapter, yes. 

 

Chapter 572 does not all in all imply that Naruto is the reincarnation of the Sage of Six Paths necessarily. Equal case simply is that this is the person that would unite them on that day as the old man spoke of would come. But going with this, that he is the son isn't even a significant change, as it points to a connection that he is a descendant and thus shares similar traits, to which the former thoughts of the Jinchuuriki make more sense, as they share relation.

 

Kaguya did suffer from poor foreshadowing. While there is no source to support this theorymaking, we could speculate that she was a device meant to help bridge things, but what occurs really is that later material works to help develop and explain Kaguya more into things. In other words, she functions fine within the material, bar the poor foreshadowing. Her family though? The Sage himself is mentioned in 572. It's merely Kaguya herself that lacks the foreshadowing, and even then her Byakugan is not super played up, nor is Hamura really explored that much. 

 

It's quite common for hero stories to end as they do, by the way, a sort of pass on to the next generation. It passes the baton onto Boruto here, but whether or not this is explored is up to the author. Kishimoto does explore this a little, but he had no intention of really writing a sequel. See Bleach. See also Harry Potter. Bleach has no continuation I am aware of, and Harry Potter only years later did any sort of substantiation with its characters. These endings -allow- further exploration, should the desire be there, but this happy ending is not at all an uncommon frame for an end to this sort of hero's journey. To go further, of course we were going to conclude with a scene that Naruto ended up being Hokage. Considering the evidence at hand, it makes perfect sense that Shikamaru is his advisor, as that aspect was played up at the end, that his son is named after Neji, Hinata is his wife, etc. 

 

But moving away from speculation, we have Kishimoto saying he planned the Sasuke vs. Naruto fight, and planned the end game pairings. That we can trace development for them makes sense. I'm not sure why holding hands doesn't count as on panel affection, but considering Kishimoto's conservativeness, we can more than understand the lack of it, or at least what you are calling "on panel affection". Are we also ignoring 699? But considering no other pairing really had any development pointing to 700 in the 600s, or "on panel affection", I'm not sure where we are getting at. 

 

As for the two women part? Perhaps instead of making a shipping connection, as implied, we make a "These are both medics and if they declare them dead, they're dead". connection. Plus considering 615 and some of the stuff you mentioned happens -before- this, does this not hurt your case? If we are championing this chapter as "on plan", what about the stuff prior? Plus right after is the Sage of Six Path's revelation, so your argument weakens substantially after your 572 jump away. 

 

This is not to say 100% of the ending is as he imagined it from the start, we can only source the pairings and the Naruto/Sasuke fight as completely intended. 

 

To conclude, you -are- theorizing, and in points of the above where stated, so am I. The only things that are not a theory are that the Naruto/Sasuke fight was intended and so were the canon pairings, as they can be sourced. We can source that Kishimoto had more say over the Last than prior material, he red inked the script several times. It is by definition a conspiracy theory to point against sources, even with your "logical evidence". But your evidence only has a basis, a slight jump from a vague uncompleted thought to something confirmed later, which is not all that much of a difference, as I illustrated. I don't really buy into theories that state otherwise, simply because you have to point to a moment, and then twist and call things out as a lie, and then you start unveiling "corporation" meddling, and the like, and need so many variables to be true, that cannot be proved or can be disproved. This makes your foundation shaky. 

First off, no movie is greenlit without having an initial script of ideas already been written. That's a fact. Edits and rewrites can always be done during preproduction, well after that first draft of the script. Again, a script that Kishimoto did not write.

To be honest, I don't think you truly grasped what I was saying in my post all that well considering you went off in directions I hadn't even touched upon. Plus I had already stated that the decision was made by no later than mid 2013. Thus prompting 615 and all instances afterward, including giving a parting shot to NS. Also, it can be confusing at times reading your replies because you post question marks at very odd points. It's hard to tell whether you're actually asking a question. 

No matter, on to Kaguya and the Otsutsuki clan. I pointed them out because they had merely been utilized as storyboard to tell the history of the shinobi. They were never foreshadowed as playing an actual role in the current timeline. That just seemed to appear out of nowhere and again, needed to be explained outside of the original manga. Which is why logic dictates to me that something prompted them to make that change. 

Now I realize that because the end pairings match with your opinions you feel you are never in the wrong. But the writing does not support you to the level you believe it to. Case in point, you claim to have felt the same as us in terms of NS before going back to reread the manga to make better sense of the ending. You should know, your first read through will always be the one least biased and least subjective. Meaning, if you didn't see it before the end, then your knowing of the end game has warped your perspective and you're merely inferring that the canon pairings were always intended. You really don't know that for a fact.

Naruto vs Sasuke however, was something that was never in doubt because the writing actually supports the notion that it was supposed to happen. It's one of the few things the entire fandom truly agrees on.

Lastly, you need to understand that all those sources you lean on so heavily all come from one place. The publisher of Naruto, Shonen Jump and it's parent company Shueisha. Just about every piece of info we've ever received about Naruto has actually come from the publisher itself. All those interviews and anecdotes about the franchise were always published by the actual franchise's publisher. So forgive me if I find them to be less than 100% credible. You know, because of the whole conflict of interest thing.

And just to add on. InoxSai, ChojixKarui and all the children being the same age, is all the evidence I needed to know that this ending was done solely to continue the franchise. 

 

The ending was Kishimoto's intention however, and the anime studio has nothing to do with the manga.

Respectfully disagree. Remember, The Last was released exactly one month after chapter 700. Meaning, the movie's script (a script Kishimoto did not write) and production were greenlit well before the manga's end. The middle of 2013 appears to be most probable of when the final decision was made. The new era project was also greenlit around the same time when you consider it was advertised by Shueisha along with the release of the final chapter. Oh, and this is very important; Naruto is a manga and franchise, not a novel or series of novels. More people have more say than just the author in this type of publishing.

Now moving forward, chapter 572 shows the bijuu alluding to the possibility of Naruto being the sage's reincarnation due to his treatment of them and affinity to all of their combined chakra. However, a year later he is the spiritual reincarnation of one of the sage's sons. While subtle, it is a significant change in the long run.

Kaguya herself is a highly specific indicator that plans were changed at the end. Even you have noted how she lacked any real foreshadowing. That's because she most likely had never been planned. Not until the script for the Last called for the Hyuuga clan and their byakugan, the Otsutsuki clan and Hinata herself to be of greater importance. It's why Kaguya and her family suddenly played a bigger role in the final chapters, seemingly out of nowhere. They wanted better continuity from the manga to the movie that would not have been there without the change of direction. A change in direction that included the pairings. 

From this point on we get Neji's death. Hinata's speech to Naruto to alleviate his despair.  A chapter named "A True Ending" which depicts at it's end the proverbial deaths of Naruto and Sasuke and the women at their sides in that moment. Coupled with a severe lack of on panel affection between the canon pairings, even after their confirmation, points to a very reasonable possibility that the ending really wasn't Kishimoto's original intention. It was an ending solely done for the continuation of the franchise.

I now leave you to disregard this very real logic as a simple conspiracy theory. Later.  

In light of the above, and to respect the rules in place, I will actually take some time to directly discuss the subject at hand then, elaborating on my original post, while also blowing out some smokescreens and speaking on the truth of things.

 

NS did not "die", because in a romantic sense, the fandom still exists, this forum still exists, fan-fiction still exists, etc. The idea of a world with these two people getting together for fans did not die. The shipping of NS won't go away. That was born on chapter 3, and will always have a following. 

 

In regards to the manga, NS did not die, because in a narrative sense, it was never born. It was at most a consideration, by Kishimoto's own words. He made plans, but allowed for organic growth of the characters to change things, and as time went on, the idea of NS did not work for him, and so he did not give it life, and canonically, Naruto's crush faded. Nothing was stolen from us, we were never entitled NS. Swapping 700 with NS at the end wouldn't make the ending make more sense, but the inverse. It's not that it wasn't resolved, it very much was. Kishimoto added a specific scene in the Last to explain this further, but you don't need it, and it was there for those who didn't quite understand, to offer a more full sense of closure. In a sense, if we are talking about the possiblity of NS, then it died narratively in 469.

 

But for readers, this obviously varies between who you ask. For some it is 469, for others, 693, for yet others, 699, 700, 615, part one,  some as what the Last was about came to be revealed, or so many other points. I think for those in echo chambers, it followed the general consensus. For many that would be at 700, or the revelation of the leaked pictures, to be more specific. i myself, was not absolutely sure, until the end, doubt only empowering faith.

 

Despite the lack of NS, The end resolved the major points, tied the major points together, and was good closure. There might have been no NS, but I'm happy with what was delivered. 

The only issues I have with this post are:

A) I didn't see what you saw in terms of Naruto's character growing organically away from Sakura. However, I did see Sakura's character grow more caring in terms to Naruto.

B) We were never shown, let alone told anything about Naruto's feelings fading for Sakura. Not once was that brought up in the manga. That's more of an inference your making due to the knowledge of the end game pairings.

Now, as far as when the possibility of NS happening took a nose dive, I'd have to say it was definitely after 469. Not necessarily the chapter itself, but due to the backlash it received from a loud part of the fandom. Remember that was a chapter that Kishimoto actually had to discuss due to the overwhelming response it received from the fans. To be honest, that entire arc in the Land of Iron drew a lot reaction and criticism during and after it's release, and not just from pairing fans. Naruto's desperation to save Sasuke in terms of the beating he took, the begging of the Raikage and the hyperventilation scene really turned some readers off.

The loudest of those reactions though, were of how horrible Sakura was towards Naruto for trying to use his feelings against him. That negative response towards Sakura's character not only prompted Kishimoto to defend her but, I also feel led to the decision to scrap her as Naruto's love interest. Her character never fully recovered from that backlash. She basically became a character, even more so than before, that was well liked or highly disliked with very little middle ground. 

 

1 and 2: Incorrect. Chapter 490 Refutes your point, as Naruto chose to rely on Kurama's power after Orochimaru's taunting.  And your argument doesn't even make sense, because I'm pointing out that each factor does not make Naruto go Ninetails, which he says, he does automatically, see chapter 490. Note I refuted your argument, again. But you have yet to refute mine. 

 

3: What are you talking about? This was not written on the side, this was written on panel. Regardless of who wrote it, it is stating a fact. Here, you are dismissing evidence to try to keep your point. 

 

4: To get your case right, on four, you'd need to demonstrably show NS Development. Panel Time does NOT equal development. Your position is faulty, because you have to notably classify many things as lies, notably the author, notably the manga, and notably, the interviews. You have not done this, but I would like to see it, because seeing a put together mold of what you classify as development would help me show you my point. You can do summary points, like 1: In this Arc, Sakura begins to see Naruto less of as a brat in this moment, etc. My position, and really, the manga's and the author's, is that NS development did not equate to a conclusion of ending up together, the ship was consistently sunk at such moments it could have gone that direction. 

 

5: She feels guilty for the burden she placed on Naruto. This is classic caregiving Sakura, nicely echoed in the Chuunin Exams as well. And here, too, she doesn't fully understand Naruto here. Had she followed this link, it would have made her love for Naruto and Sasuke shallow, as explained an interview, which...

 

6: First off, the interviews aren't contradictory, as they are still saying the same things, diction however, does differ on each. Secondly, if they are contradictory, why in the world are you using evidence from one? You cannot pick and choose, and then say this one is lesser, and this is following your logic. 

I'll do this one more time and then that's it. You and I just keep going in circles due to our vastly different ways we read a story.

1&2: You clearly didn't pay attention to my statement. "His four-tailed state was not done of his choosing." Also, you glossed over the portion of 490 that states the seal was at it's weakest during that point. Considering he lost control of Kurama's chakra after just a little bit of taunting at Tenchi Bridge, I should hope that he would lose total control after personally witnessing the apparent death of a friend during a state of desperation. 

3: It is a publisher's note and nothing more. If it actually held any real merit then it would've been placed on all published copies of Naruto. Also, it's placement by the publisher is very common in manga. 

4: The Naruto and Sakura dynamic is given more panel time in terms physical interaction along with their thoughts and feelings of each other than any other coed pair in the entire manga. That was initially done for a reason and the fact that you view this merely as teasing in the grand scheme of things, shows the great divide between us in how we utilize reading comprehension. So I don't need to go panel for panel for you as you hold no such importance for me to do so. You've already dug in your heels so why take my time for something so extensive when you have not done the same for anyone you've debated with.

5: I now know you don't grasp the importance of Sakura willing to sacrifice the man she loves for another man in her life. That's fine. No matter how powerful a message it sends in regards to her character and depth of her feelings for Naruto.

6: Now finally, I utilized that interview as a sarcastic remark considering how much stock you've put into them in the past. The interviews themselves have been contradictory and the fact that you defend them as just utilizing different diction shows you have no real defense for them. I will never use the interviews as evidence for the manga, I will solely use them to display Kishimoto's inability to consistently and thoroughly explain himself when it comes to the final product that is his manga.

It's been fun debating with you and I hope you haven't taken anything personally as I haven't. So I'll leave you with this last post and the moment to have the last word. Later.

 

1: Recent history shows him the extent of it, but this case is far worse and greater than past instances, hence, the form he took. No, largely, it is the event itself that has him worrying about Hinata. There aren't any flashbacks notably to the past, and the situation is within the context provided. Besides, the former was about choosing. This instance? He didn't even think about it.

 

2: This one is faulty, because this isn't fitting into my narrative, this is -the- narrative. Even Pa Frog dies, in front of Naruto, and it doesn't happen. We can speculate all we want, but what is 100% true is that Hinata was the acute trigger for him to use the Nine-Tails power. Nothing else on hand causes that. Nothing. This is why the "Well it would have happened with this person" doesn't work either, because, ultimately, we're postulating what if's. This is -what- happened. 

 

3: Please read the final page of the chapter Confession. "The worst emotions ever felt" is the exact wording. It's there, in Japanese Text, in the raw, and also translated on most sites for your convenience. 

 

4: There are many variations of the Love Triangle, and I'm well aware of what it is. The Team 7 Triangle is Naruto crushes on Sakura, Sakura crushes on Sasuke. That's it. The conclusion of that Triangle is that SS end up together, and Naruto settles with someone outside of Team 7. We are teased with the possibility that Sakura may also have feelings with the Naruto, but the ultimate revelation, which lines up with the constant sinking of NS, is that Sakura loves Sasuke. 

 

5: This fails, because Naruto calls Sakura out as lying. This is literally a sinking of NS, the dissolution of what you are postulating, that Sakura loves both Naruto and Sasuke. It's quite possible to love two people at once, and not debating this. But that Sakura does is not true, and explicitly stated as such by Naruto, and re-iterated later by Sakura that she does, indeed, still love Sasuke. 

 

Your...finally is frankly, silly. Because there's no more reason to spin things out in the middle of the story than there is at the end. At the end, everything is revealed, and you don't have to hide things. You can be -more- honest. 

 

But really, as readers, we should not put interviews in inequal stock as is. If we are going to use one, then we must also allow and equate the use of others as equal weight, because it puts the question of the material in use in its authenticity anyway. 

 

We're better off not conspiring and saying everything at the end is a lie that's said by the Author. 

1 & 2. All your doing is disregarding the arguments and forgetting that Naruto never purposefully lost control to the Kyuubi. The Tenchi Bridge scene shows him become so angry at Orochimaru he lost control. Solely at the mentioning of Sasuke. His four-tailed state was not done of his choosing.

Also, the fact that you disregard all build up to that moment with Hinata and solely place the emphasis on her denotes the bias you have now attained for said pairing.

3. It was an editor's note for the publisher. A tease for the next chapter as it is no longer translated since it is no longer needed to draw the reader in for next week's release. Kishimoto never wrote that. It's a common tool in manga and comic publishing.

4. Again, you disregard all panel time and development between Naruto and Sakura just because they didn't end up together. You place no emphasis on the bulk of the story, just the end game. That is where our main differences stem from. You believe in Kishimoto's red-herring explanation and write NS off as just a tease. When basic reading comprehension shows that's not the case and the story merely shifted directions. Something you apparently cannot wrap your head around as being possible.

5. Yes, Naruto accuses her of lying, which is true in the case of Sasuke. However, her actions show she has chosen Naruto over Sasuke in her willingness to live without the man she supposedly loves so much. It's not solely about saving Sasuke from himself since she also views him as a threat to Naruto's life.

And finally, we have to take all the interviews in as evidence as it is the only way to know what the author was thinking at certain times. The fact that these interviews at times have been contradictory, points to one simple fact. We cannot take anything he says at face value as we can never be sure what is truthful and what is not. Or as we say in law enforcement, since his statements aren't consistent, he's lying.

 

This is problematic, because that recent history was not even part of the discussion? Nor does it help your point. 

 

1: Getting into that recent history, Naruto decides to stop harnessing that power because of the danger it can be for others, and he didn't think he'd be able to control it.  

 

2: Now enter the Pain Battle. Jirayai is dead, Kakashi is dead, villagers are dead, Konoha is destroyed. Naruto still does not use or give in to that power even when he is pinned down and about to have his tailed beast extracted. 

 

3: Hinata steps in to save Naruto, and is stabbed. Naruto's heart connects to Kurama without even thinking, you get text saying "The worst feelings ever felt", thus a very intense reaction compared to the former time. 

 

As for the "You do nothing to refute my claim!"

 

Um, because I agree Sakura's views change? She goes from thinking of him as a brat to genuinely caring. Their friendship is beautiful. 

 

But I am arguing your conclusion of them is wrong in being romantic, and cited evidence why. 

 

I know what interview you are talking about, and no, it does not say that Sakura was honest in that her feelings were romantic. That was explicitly dealt with on page. Yes, Sakura was going through honest reasons on why she shouldn't love Sasuke, but the truth is that she did love Sasuke. She was being heroine-like, in the sense of trying to ease a burden, but she did not understand that Naruto genuinely wanted to save Sasuke too, and her promise was not the cause of the burden, I.E., the crush had nothing to do with it. 

 

Further, why are we taking this piece as "Telling the truth", then taking the decisive Naruto and Hinata were always the plan interviews as "Not". This selectivity is dangerous. 

1. Recent history has everything to do with why Naruto did not want to harness the kyuubi's power due to the harm he caused Sakura. It plays directly into him worrying about what he may have done to Hinata.

2. Naruto comes in after the fact. He does not ever see in any of those deaths occur in front of him. However he is already highly angered and has nothing but vengeance on his mind during that entire time. Hinata being stabbed right in front of him is the straw that broke the camel's back. You cannot solely place all the emphasis on Hinata when she was not the sole reason for his anger. Again, you're just trying to fit it into your narrative.

3. Nowhere in chapter 437 or 438 is the text "the worst feelings ever felt". Perhaps you saw a version that had an editor or translator's note.

4. You apparently don't understand what a love triangle is. Which is what SNS is. This formula does not work if Sakura, the triangle's focal point is only shown having feelings for Sasuke and never having feelings for Naruto. These changing feelings for Naruto are highlighted multiple times throughout the manga. I don't think that was something done for kicks. Databooks from that period state very much the same thing. And don't you dare try to discount that databook when I've seen you utilize the Last's databook multiple times for your NH arguments. So who's actually being selective?

5. Your take on the confession is that since Sakura still loves Sasuke she cannot have feelings for Naruto. She is incapable of having feelings for both the men in her life. That she's outright lying to Naruto, which is the only thing you utilize as evidence to pass off all the Naruto and Sakura panel time we have as just friendship. Therefore you're denying that the love triangle ever existed. Something highly speculative that goes against the actual writing and images in the manga.  

Finally, I've always put more stock into interviews given during the creation process over those given after a project's completion. Mainly due to the author only discussing recent developments and burgeoning paths that the story is leading him towards. They always tend to be more truthful. Interviews usually given after the fact are almost always about spin and trying place your work in the highest light possible.   

 

No, there isn't a projection with Hinata, he -specifically- mentions her. He does not specifically mention anyone else. You supply that it is because she is closest to her, Naruto's rampage had the potential to impact more than just her. 

 

I keep reiterating that at no point am I saying that the Land of Iron is the exact point of when Naruto's crush dies, that you can speculate as you wish. This is the point when any possibility of NS from a reader's understanding dies. No, because this firmly establishes that Sakura loves Sasuke, and does not love Naruto, yes, Sakura cares for her friend, but it is not romantic. This isn't fitting of a narrative, this is what this moment shows.

 

The last part is silly? No, I didn't go back to convince myself it was always there, it -was- always there. The building blocks are there, and Kishimoto's statements about what he did more or less add up to them. The Author is the foremost point in what is and isn't in a story. For your narrative to work, you -have- to throw the Author, the manga, the studios, all of these other entities, as liars, and more or less, into a wild conspiracy theory. But maybe, and far, far more simpler and reasonable, that isn't the case.

 

Maybe, the error is in the individual. Because that is far more easier to do, than some wild conspiracy theory that just falls apart as soon as you poke into it. 

Well you just reiterated your Hinata point without even trying to tackle Naruto's recent history of harming those physically closest to him during his loss of control. The fact that he thinks of Hinata in that moment is proof enough to you that he already loves her despite not truly knowing her or ever spending any alone time with her. 

Then you do nothing to refute all the panel time I mentioned of Sakura's changing views and feelings toward Naruto. Apparently they're just there because he needed to fill panel time. Oh, and let's not mention that Kishimoto defended Sakura immediately after the release of the confession as her being an honest girl and more heroine like in that moment. A statement he made while still writing the story, not well after it's conclusion.

If those building blocks were truly there then this entire site would not exist. Backlash would have never reached Kishimoto to the point he had to actually acknowledge it and discuss it. No, the fan base would be much larger and far more amicable if those building blocks actually existed and I would simply be an outlier, not one of many.

However, basic reading comprehension and simple logic point to the fact that the story started and developed down one path only to veer off down another much later on. That does not make for a conspiracy theory. It merely takes notice that the author changed his mind, as is his right to do so for his story.

So which one of us actually made the most sense in the grand scheme of things? 

 

The first part is not true, because he specifically thinks about the village as well, but the most specific and his relief goes to the fact Hinata is safe. This is not speculation, this is in the manga. 

 

This is a weird argument, because we know Naruto has a crush on Sakura from three, and Sakura is saying she wants to be with Naruto in the Fake Confession. Naruto's feelings are being addressed in this arc. Ultimately, he more or less rejects the notion of Sakura loving him, calling it a lie. I.E., NS's firm conclusion of it not going a romantic direction. It's not said when the crush fades, and you can state and postulate when that happened, but the tie up of NS really happens here. 

 

The next part doesn't work either, because we can say the same of Sakura with Naruto, I.E, there's no honest interest shown from Sakura to Naruto, further there is interest from Sasuke to Sakura shown at 699, and, if you like, we can go through the NH moments one by one to help you get that one. But you're right, there is no interest of forming a romantic relationship shown, until hey, the Last tells that story. But based on the NH build up alone, you don't need the Last, and 700 makes sense without it. Again, happy to illustrate that build up for you. 

 

NS wasn't discarded at the end, the notion of it being non-romantic was done earlier on. It was simply mis-understood or missed by some, and this some would rather explore possiblities of the medium, the fanbase, the anime company, as being wrong or out to do some scandal, than the simple possibility, that they missed details. 

His relief comes from the fact that everyone is safe not just Hinata. He thinks of Hinata because she was closest to him during his loss of control. History states that should be the case considering his actions at the Tenchi Bridge. You're projecting again. 

Next, Naruto speaks of his beliefs of Sakura's feelings during the confession. The entire confession is about Sakura and her feelings, along with her willingness to sacrifice Sasuke's life in favor of Naruto. That's kind of a big deal you keep glossing over. Which Naruto refuses to accept. That's why the chapter is named Sakura's Confession. You are speculating that this is the end of Naruto's feelings for her because it fits your narrative. 

You refuse to see any of the many thoughts and actions we were shown of Sakura's changing views on Naruto as her slowly taking an interest in him. Which includes several panels of her crying for him, thinking fondly of him or showing some form of admiration of him. It is the only possible pairing that is shown having some form of actual reciprocation from both parties. Because if you did that, then again it wouldn't fit your narrative.

You mentioned you went back and reread the manga to see if you missed something or could actually make sense of the end.The fact that you went looking for something lends very real credence that you lost your objectivity. You have convinced yourself that it was always there because you forced yourself to find it. Therefore you cannot be wrong and cannot even phathom the possibility that Kishimoto and his publisher may have changed their minds on the direction of the ending of the manga late in the story. An idea that is both highly logical and rather commonplace in storytelling.

 

The grading point is a joke. It's the equivalent of saying "Good Day", except, I find it more humorous. 

 

That said, I did discuss your evidence, specifically how it does not support the conclusion you present. There isn't spinning and speculation involved.

 

Case in point: I pointed out that Naruto saw Pa Frog die in front of him, but notably did not turn into Nine Tails at this moment. If anything it's almost a similiar event with Neji's death, in that... he starts giving up. Hinata steps in, and when she is nearly taken down...Naruto just gives in to the Nine Tails. When he is back in his form, he is in great relief that he did not harm Hinata, and that she still lives. He thinks of the villagers, but he specifically thinks of Hinata, the only named individual. This refutes your "Naruto checking up on Hinata" point. 

 

Case in Point, the Land of Iron Arc refutes the Promise point you allude at 457, it discusses the entire issue and more or less settles the NS conclusion. 

 

Okay, somewhere, there are panels about 43, and Sakura in no way at that time believed in his dream, she calls it "impossible', even. By the end of the story, yes, she does, but not at that moment. 

 

SS does? You see Sasuke saving her in the Chuunin Exams Arc in the Forest of Death. But you are talking about physical affection, I presume, which no pairing really has that's explicitly romantic. 

 

The problem with a lot of pairing issues, is one, this is a Manga about Naruto, but its not focusing on his day to day life, or who he sees, it's focused on the greater plot points that revolve around his journey of really ,gaining acknowledgement, bonds, and cooperation, that two, it's not a romance, and there is no romance in the entire manga, bar 699. None. There's no serious romantic pursuit until 699 and the Last. But there's development and foundation of their relationships that build and point to that point, even if there's no explicit romance, there's a growing bond of love, but that love does not contain the love-dovey affection romance elements you ask about until the Last. But everything we see from 1-699 supports the leap of 700 of these two getting together, because of the bond that was built up between them. 

I still see speculation and a projection of your point of view on these moments. Hinata was physically the closest person to Naruto when he loses control. So of course his first instinct would be check if he hurt her as he had Sakura in the past. You're just projecting what you want to see on this moment.

In the land of iron, they discuss Sakura's feelings for both Naruto and Sasuke. A moment Kishimoto himself vehemently defended. They in no way, form or fashion discuss Naruto's feelings for her. Again, you're projecting what you want to see on this moment. 

Also, how many times did Naruto save Sakura, or vice versa. So that argument holds no weight. 

One more time, there is zero interest shown from Sasuke or Naruto towards Sakura and Hinata. There is not a moment either of the boys are displayed as being interested in having a relationship with the women they wound up with. And not just physically but emotionally. The same cannot be said in terms of our protagonist, Naruto, towards Sakura. But apparently it's okay to disregard this and say there is no romance in the manga. We are even shown the development of Sakura's feelings towards Naruto from disdain to deeply caring. 

Bonds and friendships were developed throughout the manga, far more so than romance. However some bonds developed more prominently and the one that received the most development, was the one discarded in the end. You used the perfect term for chapter 700. It was a leap. It was a leap of faith that the audience was going to accept the ending as it was. As you can see only some fans have accepted that leap as being sensible while others, such as myself have genuine reasons not to. This is why we will seemingly always disagree. 

The first part is a misunderstanding of Naruto. Naruto cares about all of his comrades, but his feelings for them are not equal. Many of his intense reactions, for example, the worst feelings he has ever felt, source from Hinata. This isn't pairing goggles whatever, I'm literally sourcing a passage here. Often this is returned with "Well, he'd have done it with anyone", but Jirayai died, Kakashi was dead, the village was destroyed with others dead, and none of them had caused him to do this. Not to mention Pa frog died in front of him, Ma Frog got shoved away, and he still didn't do this. It wasn't until Hinata was killed in front of him that he did this. 

 

The Second part is true, NS Development exists, but is explicitly shut down as being romantic development in the Land of Iron Arc, which you reference. 

 

This Arc tells us that the promise was not a burden to Naruto, and it had nothing to do with him about being so in love that he was willing to sacrifice his happiness, he wanted to save Sasuke too. The "So in love part" is factually proven wrong, in this very arc, and really, even in the moment, because he's not sacrificing anything?

 

The error with the Sakura side, is while she cared about Naruto, was being her trademark caregiver here, she didn't understand Naruto, or believe in him and his dream of becoming Hokage. But she didn't want him to be stuck as a genin forever.

 

It's not explicitly stated that the crush died at X time, but crushes naturally fade, the Land of Iron destroys the Notion of NS anyway, so its shown well enough that its not going anywhere, and that's all that's needed. Obviously, by the time we get to the end, we know this crush is gone. Fans can argue and speculate on the when as they wish.

 

Yes, there is no explicit romance with -any- pairing in the manga, except SS in 699, that's it. But there is plenty of development and foundation for that canon pairing, which points to the 700 conflusion. 

 

 

I actually respond to arguments line by line, and indeed, see above, point to examples in the manga. The goalposts aren't being moved, but of course, rather than argue the points, you are complaining about "intelligent" speak I'm slithering into. Classic conspiracy theory making. 

 

Or maybe I'm just having a discussion and using the diction I'm familiar with. 

 

0/100, F, See me after class.

So you're going to continue to use spin and speculation, along with your subjective view point rather than actually refute the evidence I gave you. Also, did you just utilize real world logic to try to explain the ending of Naruto's so-called crush? Because if we're gonna use such logic then I can truly pull apart the canon pairings. Most notably how no woman will wait 12 years for her man to return and no man will fall completely in love with a woman he has spent no alone time with. But I digress.

To your first point you have given one of the classic NH arguments ever given. Naruto never saw Jiraiya die. He did not see Kakashi die. He only actually saw one person die and that was Neji. That death caused him enough grief to nearly give up fighting all together. No, Hinata's near death is the tipping point not the most important factor. Had it been more important we would've seen Naruto checking on Hinata personally in the end.

To your next point chapter 457 refutes your claim that the crush has faded and the promise holds no weight. Chapter 693 even reiterates that Naruto has not forgotten the promise.

As for Sakura chapter 43 shows she refuses to let Naruto's dream of becoming Hokage die. A dream she is shown to have complete faith in as the story progresses. So in the end it's just pure speculation on your part of these discussion points.

Oh, to your point about SS, it suffers the same issues NH has. There is no reciprocation of affection on behalf of Sasuke towards Sakura for 698 chapters of the manga. None.

Now this is on a personal note. If you continue speaking to others members of this forum condescendingly i.e. grading their arguments, then I will no longer engage you in discussions. I have no time for someone who exhibits such narcissistic behavior. Good day.

 

For the first part, that isn't Physical Attraction.

 

Now as for the second? The thing is, NH isn't driven by physical attraction, their love was about who they were as beings, rather than any physical traits. Hinata is a supporting character, so her time is limited, as we both understand, but that time accomplishes quite a bit, building up the relationship, supporting Naruto with encouragement or saving him, and there are a lot of panels of just showing Hinatas' feelings, really given attention, and this isn't done for no reason. It's really an intended message. The romantic aspects come later, but by all of their relationship build up, the showing that Naruto reacts intensely to what happens Hinata, I.E., he has intense feelings for, in other words, he is in love, it makes a lot of sense.

 

Naruto's attraction to Sakura, is shown as a crush, and is settled in the late 400s. 

 

The mistake is judging that physical attraction is the decisive factor, particular noting that our pairing was a one-sided crush, and Naruto understood well enough that Sakura loved Sasuke, and did not love him. There isn't an NS to work with ,or make the ending make sense with.

 

But there is an NH to work with, due to how their bond was built up.

That entire answer was given with pairing goggles on. Naruto is shown having intense feelings for any of his precious people that get hurt. Not just Hinata. Does that mean he's in love with everyone?

Also, Sakura is shown doing the same things for Naruto that Hinata is shown doing. She supports him, sheds tears for him, nurses him back to health, saves his life and is even willing to sacrifice for him in many more instances in many more panels. We're also shown how her feelings change for him. We're shown an actual developed strong bond. 

Naruto is so in love with Sakura that he is willing to sacrifice his happiness for hers (The promise of a lifetime).

She cares so much for him, not only is she willing to sacrifice her and Sasuke's chance at a promotion (the chunin exam written test). But she's actually willing to sacrifice Sasuke himself in favor of Naruto(the confession in the land of iron).

Plus, there is no panel in the manga that shows Naruto stopped having feelings for Sakura. None.

And again, there is no romance on behalf of Naruto towards Hinata until chapter 700. There is not one panel that says so in the previous 699 chapters. So NH really does not have that much of a leg to stand on. Not without the movies and the novels.

Except....he wasn't trying to say it was driven by physical attraction or that it was a decisive factor. So...why are you arguing from that stance? 

Because she's really having a hard time refuting what I'm saying. So she's trying to spin things as best as she can.

.