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The Problem With Sasuke And Why Everything Is Broken


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#1 Nostradamus

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 10:30 PM

As the title suggests I’m going to talk about Sasuke and why everything is broken because of that.

 

In the past I said that Sasuke was too bipolar and Kishimoto just loves him too much. But I have to admit I was wrong. I finally understood why Sasuke is written the way he is and why everything is broken.

You see the problem is Sasuke. Because after Itachi was dealt with and that part of the story ended, Sasuke didn’t have a reason to exist anymore. After Itachi died, Sasuke ceased to existing as an individual character, as a person in this fictional story. The only thing left was Naruto wanting to bring him back thus turning Sasuke into an object. At that point you can take a ball write Sasuke on it and it could easily replace the real Sasuke and have Naruto chase after that ball and it will have the exact same outcome. And that’s where the problem occurs. Kishimoto needed to find ways to integrate Sasuke in almost everything, even things that have nothing to do with him.

 

Because if he doesn’t Sasuke stops existing as an individual character and all that’s left is for Naruto to bring back his pet.

You want proof of that? The biggest proof is the current war. Sasuke has absolutely nothing to do with the war. Yet Kishi was forced to find a way to shove Sasuke in it. Everything Kishimoto has done with Sasuke after Itachi’s death wasn’t planned at all. When it comes to Sasuke, Kishi is winging it.

For example if you go back and pay attention you’ll realize that Kishimoto wanted Naruto to be the reincarnation of the Rikudou Sennin or have the same ideals as the Rikudou. However if he would’ve done that, then Sasuke was going to be left out. And again Sasuke becomes an object.

 

I want to imagine if Naruto became Hokage in chapter 300 and in chapter 301 he found the answer to bring peace in order forever. If that would’ve happened then Kishimoto would need to find different ways to keep Naruto relevant until the end of the story. And that’s exactly what happened to Sasuke his part of the story was over when Itachi disappeared. Then only thing left was for Naruto to bring back his lost pet.  

 

That’s why Kishi gave us this nonsensical explanation that Sasuke is the reincarnation of Indra and Naruto is the reincarnation of Ashura. In order to keep Sasuke as a character and not someone who can be easily replaced by an object. And to level the plain field, Naruto was 10 times more powerful than Sasuke.

Sasuke getting free power-ups was needed in order to bring him to Naruto’s level. Ironically isn’t it? The guy that was said to be a genius and doesn’t need anyone to help him needs other people to help in order to be on equal ground as the guy who worked his ass off in order to get where he is.

 

Sasuke is the reincarnation of Indra? Yeah right. Indra could do anything on his own; he didn’t need help in order to be become strong. Sasuke on the other hand needed Orochimaru’s help, Itachi’s help, Hashirama’s help, the Rikudou Sennin’s help and even Naruto’s help in order to get where he is now.  Everyone gives Sasuke free power-ups.

I can already feel the hate from the Sasuke fanboys.

 

With Naruto, Kishi has been consistent while Sasuke is all over the place. Kishi needs to keep Sasuke relevant. However Kishi is struggling to fit Sasuke in situations where he just doesn’t belong. Like I said Sasuke’s character was over when Itachi died. Now I hate to say this but that part of the story should’ve been dragged out. And the reason I said I hate this is because I hate things that are dragged out in a story.

 

Now here is the real problem what Kishimoto is forced to do with Sasuke also affects everything as well. This is why we have the retcons, the inconsistencies, the asspulls, the overly exaggerated brotherly bond, characters not getting proper development and on and on. These are the prices to pay to keep Sasuke relevant. Everything that’s wrong with this story is because of Sasuke.

 

Now there are two possibilities why he’s doing this either Kishimoto really loves Sasuke or someone higher than him told him to keep Sasuke relevant because his fans love him. I’m pretty confident it’s the latter because if Kishimoto really loved Sasuke then he would’ve given him proper development.

Remember free power-ups doesn’t mean development.

 


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Which I've told you - time and time again - is dangerous! There will never be consensus, son, among those you have helped to ascend. They will all differ in their views of what it means to be free. The peace you so desperately seek does not exist.
 
These men are united now by a common cause. But when this battle is finished they will fall to fighting amongst themselves about how best to ensure control. In time it will lead to war. You will see.


#2 K9ofChaos

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 10:36 PM

You make some good points. However, Naruto's ideology will most likely win out over Sasuke's.



#3 Sakamaki Izayoi

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 10:51 PM

[spoiler rant]
As the title suggests I’m going to talk about Sasuke and why everything is broken because of that.
 
In the past I said that Sasuke was too bipolar and Kishimoto just loves him too much. But I have to admit I was wrong. I finally understood why Sasuke is written the way he is and why everything is broken.
You see the problem is Sasuke. Because after Itachi was dealt with and that part of the story ended, Sasuke didn’t have a reason to exist anymore. After Itachi died, Sasuke ceased to existing as an individual character, as a person in this fictional story. The only thing left was Naruto wanting to bring him back thus turning Sasuke into an object. At that point you can take a ball write Sasuke on it and it could easily replace the real Sasuke and have Naruto chase after that ball and it will have the exact same outcome. And that’s where the problem occurs. Kishimoto needed to find ways to integrate Sasuke in almost everything, even things that have nothing to do with him.
 
Because if he doesn’t Sasuke stops existing as an individual character and all that’s left is for Naruto to bring back his pet.
You want proof of that? The biggest proof is the current war. Sasuke has absolutely nothing to do with the war. Yet Kishi was forced to find a way to shove Sasuke in it. Everything Kishimoto has done with Sasuke after Itachi’s death wasn’t planned at all. When it comes to Sasuke, Kishi is winging it.
For example if you go back and pay attention you’ll realize that Kishimoto wanted Naruto to be the reincarnation of the Rikudou Sennin or have the same ideals as the Rikudou. However if he would’ve done that, then Sasuke was going to be left out. And again Sasuke becomes an object.
 
I want to imagine if Naruto became Hokage in chapter 300 and in chapter 301 he found the answer to bring peace in order forever. If that would’ve happened then Kishimoto would need to find different ways to keep Naruto relevant until the end of the story. And that’s exactly what happened to Sasuke his part of the story was over when Itachi disappeared. Then only thing left was for Naruto to bring back his lost pet.  
 
That’s why Kishi gave us this nonsensical explanation that Sasuke is the reincarnation of Indra and Naruto is the reincarnation of Ashura. In order to keep Sasuke as a character and not someone who can be easily replaced by an object. And to level the plain field, Naruto was 10 times more powerful than Sasuke.
Sasuke getting free power-ups was needed in order to bring him to Naruto’s level. Ironically isn’t it? The guy that was said to be a genius and doesn’t need anyone to help him needs other people to help in order to be on equal ground as the guy who worked his ass off in order to get where he is.
 
Sasuke is the reincarnation of Indra? Yeah right. Indra could do anything on his own; he didn’t need help in order to be become strong. Sasuke on the other hand needed Orochimaru’s help, Itachi’s help, Hashirama’s help, the Rikudou Sennin’s help and even Naruto’s help in order to get where he is now.  Everyone gives Sasuke free power-ups.
I can already feel the hate from the Sasuke fanboys.
 
With Naruto, Kishi has been consistent while Sasuke is all over the place. Kishi needs to keep Sasuke relevant. However Kishi is struggling to fit Sasuke in situations where he just doesn’t belong. Like I said Sasuke’s character was over when Itachi died. Now I hate to say this but that part of the story should’ve been dragged out. And the reason I said I hate this is because I hate things that are dragged out in a story.
 
Now here is the real problem what Kishimoto is forced to do with Sasuke also affects everything as well. This is why we have the retcons, the inconsistencies, the asspulls, the overly exaggerated brotherly bond, characters not getting proper development and on and on. These are the prices to pay to keep Sasuke relevant. Everything that’s wrong with this story is because of Sasuke.
 
Now there are two possibilities why he’s doing this either Kishimoto really loves Sasuke or someone higher than him told him to keep Sasuke relevant because his fans love him. I’m pretty confident it’s the latter because if Kishimoto really loved Sasuke then he would’ve given him proper development.
Remember free power-ups doesn’t mean development.

Sasuke is not the problem, the problem is how Kishi write Naruto.
Look at how it is, Sasuke leaving the village should had been a side quest, but however Sasuke's character has nothing to do with Naruto's quest to bring back him but the problem is that Kishimoto turned this chase into the main aspect of the manga, the Akatsuki, the peace objective, Hokage title everything circles around Naruto "saving" Sasuke.
That's the reason the story is screwed, is not the fact Kishimoto tried to insert Sasuke on all those things, but the fact on how those objectives can only be resolved if Naruto saves Sasuke.
The war itself is a proof, it's not the fact that Sasuke jumped in there to help Naruto but the fact that the conflicts and the whole circle of hatred that caused the war will only be resolved if Naruto saves Sasuke which is stated by Obito himself.

Kishimoto on part 1 was like this
"Naruto having a dream to be hokage"
"Akatsuki chasing Naruto"
"Naruto bring back Sasuke"

Part 2 ->
"Save Sasuke""Save Sasuke""Save Sasuke""Save Sasuke""Save Sasuke""Save Sasuke""Save Sasuke""Save Sasuke"
"Cant be Hokage because of Sasuke""Cant be Hokage because of Sasuke""Cant be Hokage because of Sasuke"
"Akatsuki Chasing Sasuke""Akatsuki Chasing Sasuke""Akatsuki Chasing Sasuke""Akatsuki Chasing Sasuke"
"Naruto chasing Sasuke".
"The goal of Sakura's battle with Sasori was to get info on Sasuke".
"Cant express my feelings because of Sasuke"
"i'm working hard to caught up with Sasuke (ignore the akatsuki after his ass)"

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Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 23 April 2014 - 10:57 PM.

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#4 James S Cassidy

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 10:55 PM

This is basically what I have been saying for a long time. I call it "Product of the plot." Now people try telling me "Isn't that all characters?" No. A real character flows with the plot and progresses with it. They are not a product of the plot, they are the plot. Being a product of the plot is characters who are purposely changed to suit a certain aspect the story needs them to be. If he is supposed to be a villain, the character will change into a villain. If the villainy goes on too long and the story needs him to do something else, he changes again.

One example I feel is evident is when Sasuke wanted to destroy Konoha. He had at least 3 perfect chances to destroy it and each time it just so happens something comes along to stop him from doing it. He was even at the village and had the perfect chance there to burn it to the ground, but instead made Sasuke once again stall and change. What's worse is we got this weird conversation with Suigetsu and Orochimaru where they discuss why Sasuke isn't destroying the village right now...it basically ends up with Orochimaru saying "Because reasons."

I can understand going after Itachi....I can even understand going after Danzo, but why stop from destroying the village? Why all of sudden now? Hell, if it happened earlier with him thinking and learning about the Uchiha being just as bad and planning an uprising, but not even that phased him.

 

What happened to the whole "I want my clan back?"

We have Sasuke only just recently stating "I am going to severe the bonds of the past" with him slicing Naruto's image and now it seems like that matters little at all. I don't get it. It's like Sasuke has more personalities than Zetsu and is in a constant inner war with himself with personalities taking over every now and then.

Sasuke is supposed to be Naruto's rival and yet they never do anything rivals do. Goku and Vegeta are a rivalry done right and yet Naruto's and Sasuke's supposed "rivalry" is not even a partial similar to them. Maybe in the part 1 it looked like it, but now there is no point.

Edit: I actually agree with Dark on this one....well, partially. I think it is half the problem. When Naruto and Sakura exist without thought about Sasuke or any of that crap about Sasuke, their development is actually really good and their characters are not under-minded. It is only when the subject of Sasuke is brought up is when it starts ruining characters.

It's similar to Hinata as well. If it was just about Hinata and her goal to be stronger, she was fine, but as soon as it revolves around her love for Naruto it just ruins her character and she is reduced to pairing fodder.


Edited by James S Cassidy, 23 April 2014 - 11:03 PM.

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#5 Sakamaki Izayoi

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 11:01 PM

This is basically what I have been saying for a long time. I call it "Product of the plot." Now people try telling me "It's that all characters?" No. A real character flows with the plot and progresses with it. They are not a product of the plot, they are the plot. Being a product of the plot is characters who are purposely changed to suit a certain aspect the story needs them to be. If he is supposed to be a villain, the character will change into a villain. If the villainy goes on too long and the story needs him to do something else, he changes again.

One example I feel is evident is when Sasuke wanted to destroy Konoha. He had at least 3 perfect chances to destroy it and each time it just so happens something comes along to stop him from doing it. He was even at the village and had the perfect chance there to burn it to the ground, but in stead made Sasuke once again stall and change. What's worse is we got this weird conversation with Suigetsu and Orochimaru where they discuss why Sasuke isn't destroying the village right now...it basically ends up with Orochimaru saying "Because reasons."

I can understand going after Itachi....I can even understand going after Danzo, but why stop from destroying the village? Why all of sudden now? Hell, if it happened earlier with him thinking and learning about the Uchiha being just as bad and planning an uprising, but not even that phased him.
 
What happened to the whole "I want my clan back?"

We have Sasuke only just recently stating "I am going to severe the bonds of the past" with him slicing Naruto's image and now it seems like that matters little at all. I don't get it. It's like Sasuke has more personalities than Zetsu and is in a constant inner war with himself with personalities taking over every now and then.

Sasuke is supposed to be Naruto's rivel and yet they never do anything rivels do. Goku and Vegeta are a rivalry done right and yet Naruto's and Sasuke's supposed "rivalry" is not even a partial similar to these. Maybe in the part 1 it looked like it, but now there is no point.

Funny is that Jiraiya and Minato stuggled on their lives to find the answer to bring peace to the world and Naruto only needs to save Sasuke to achieve that :)
True Story.

I understand the reason why Sasuke doesnt want to destroy Konoha, is because his brother sacrificed everything to protect it, and if he destroys he would destroy Itachi's memory too, but Sasuke loves Itachi and he knows that just after learning the truth he had his hatred but now he wants to finish Itachi's job by destroying the dark side of the village and making things right.
He wants to erase his past because those people are going to get into his way he needs to kill them in order to be kage, he's not going to become it with "MUH DEMOCRACY" but though power and killing the oppositors.(K11 and Team 7)

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 23 April 2014 - 11:05 PM.

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#6 Nostradamus

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 11:04 PM

@Dark I have to agree and disagree with you at the same time. The problem still remains Sasuke. The fact of the matter is this story could've been so much better without Sasuke. Sasuke ruined everything. And I know it sounds strange the story without Sasuke but it would've been amazing. No overly exaggerated brotherly love nonsense, no retcons, proper development, etc. you get the point.


                         CZSn9hA.jpg
 
Which I've told you - time and time again - is dangerous! There will never be consensus, son, among those you have helped to ascend. They will all differ in their views of what it means to be free. The peace you so desperately seek does not exist.
 
These men are united now by a common cause. But when this battle is finished they will fall to fighting amongst themselves about how best to ensure control. In time it will lead to war. You will see.


#7 Sakamaki Izayoi

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 11:07 PM

@Dark I have to agree and disagree with you at the same time. The problem still remains Sasuke. The fact of the matter is this story could've been so much better without Sasuke. Sasuke ruined everything. And I know it sounds strange the story without Sasuke but it would've been amazing. No overly exaggerated brotherly love nonsense, no retcons, proper development, etc. you get the point.

I understand what you're talking about, but part 1 was amazing and Sasuke was there, part 2 sustain my view that Sasuke's chase is what really screwed the story and the necessity of trying to save a "friend" who left the village on his own will, and how that become the main plot of the manga.
That's all.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 23 April 2014 - 11:08 PM.

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#8 Inferno180

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 11:11 PM

There are somethings that make sense with sasuke, but its the free passes people dont like anymore. I mean in my view, characters generally have physical and mental growth.

 

For Sasuke, physically its been simple, he keeps awakening powers in the midst of battle, this is made some of his deals very easy to follow otherwise its also been well, not really a suprise when he turns his sussano from a ribcage to a full upper body one.

 

Mentally, Sasuke has been everywhere. He has left sanity town since part 1 and took a detour to I'm saving itachi for my wrath, to I hate the leaf village to I hate it even more to maybe I was wrong about this revenge deal to I have other motives but I'll play nice for now.

 

There have been some things that have been solid on him like his desire to know why Itachi did what he did, but as we saw despite him now fighting to save the village, he is saving it so he can create a new system, basically preserve it for his goals. And if the supposed final conflict is for who becomes hokage, well we know from 631 the reasons of narutos being right and sasukes being wrong.

 

I mean otherwise, kishi has made sasuke well, to irratic in minor things like so hate fueled at one part to being uncoopertive even in the midst of battle when he was helping naruto. I mean he has been mostly consistant with Naruto and he has handled Sakura well, but Sasuke is a jumper, I mean given how kishi sees sasuke as neither a hero nor a villian, its safe to assume he is an anti hero, he has a borderline of good and evil but mainly does things counter productive to naruto but not in the sense of achieving full villiany.

 

Otherwise you can say this about sasuke: **** it trying to find reason at this point is more work than getting its worth. If he is unhinged now, he will remain unhinged. I mean people are still going to be giving him the death stare after this but naruto will be the one to play talk no jutsu and everyone eventually gives him a second chance. In some ways he does have a second chance but in others its just on a personal level there are things I feel he should make amends for, I mean you know apologizing to his teammates would be nice.



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#9 Nostradamus

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 11:28 PM

I understand what you're talking about, but part 1 was amazing and Sasuke was there, part 2 sustain my view that Sasuke's chase is what really screwed the story and the necessity of trying to save a "friend" who left the village on his own will, and how that become the main plot of the manga.
That's all.

You know this exaggerated brotherly love nonsense could've worked. Provided if it would've been done right. Provided if we would've seen that Naruto and Sasuke we're actually good friends in the beginning. And this is the problem Naruto and Sasuke were never friends, they were teammates. Together they were good as teammates but nothing more. And we have to accept Naruto's obsession with Sasuke as true friendship because Kishimoto is hammering us with it and there is no absolutely nothing to back it up. For example we saw that Madara and Hashirama were friends before they were enemies and these characters were late introduced and we saw their bond in chapter 600 and something. But we didn't see that with you know the main characters.

Kishi hasn't shown us the brotherly bond between Naruto and Sasuke. He just alludes to it.

Look at Naruto and Sakura, we saw how their relationship grew, how they started to care for each other, we saw them as friends.


Edited by Nostradamus, 23 April 2014 - 11:33 PM.

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Which I've told you - time and time again - is dangerous! There will never be consensus, son, among those you have helped to ascend. They will all differ in their views of what it means to be free. The peace you so desperately seek does not exist.
 
These men are united now by a common cause. But when this battle is finished they will fall to fighting amongst themselves about how best to ensure control. In time it will lead to war. You will see.


#10 James S Cassidy

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 11:34 PM

I understand the reason why Sasuke doesnt want to destroy Konoha, is because his brother sacrificed everything to protect it, and if he destroys he would destroy Itachi's memory too

A problem I see with that is is that this makes Sasuke an utter hypocrite. Itachi didn't just want to protect Konoha, he wanted his brother to have a life he knew he could never have. It was the whole reason why he left him in the care of the 3rd Hokage in the first place. So he preserves Konoha for the sake of his brother, but doesn't listen to what his brother really wanted for him? You'd think he would have said "I support the Third Hokage because my brother believed in him." Yet, he does all the stuff that he tried to do all for the sake of power.

Okay, in the beginning Sasuke was angry, angsty, and felt he should take revenge on his brother. It is legit because he didn't know the truth. After he did know the truth and knew what his brother really wanted for him, why didn't he say to himself: "I had it wrong all this time. I had real friends and gave it all up for this stupid revenge. Meanwhile, my brother gave up everything for me. I should at least pay respects by honoring his wishes."

It sometimes feels like even Sasuke doesn't know what he really wants and I am not even sure what Sasuke's ambitions or goals are. He seems to be trying to have his cake and eat it too

He wants to respect his brother by not destroying Konoha, but then ignores all the real things his brother wanted for him.

He wants to destroy the bonds of his past, but then wants to preserve Konoha which basically is his past bonds rolled into a ball.

And to add, everyone has a good point about Sasuke and it is a combination of all of them rolled into one. Part 1 Sasuke was okay and it made sense. Part 2 Sasuke is where it gets weird and I have to blame Kishi for it. Sasuke's personality is more convoluted than a squiggly line drawn into a ball, he gets too many free passes and free power-ups with little effort, and his decision making has become worse than Batman's Two-face. "Flip a coin: Heads is good, tails it's bad." At least Two-Face had a reason for it with the dual personality, but Sasuke doesn't have that luxury. He seems to turn his insanity on and off at will and changes his goals purely based on less than par reasons. Hell, some of the things that actually change his mind against something sometimes support his original idea in the first place.



 


Edited by James S Cassidy, 23 April 2014 - 11:43 PM.

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#11 Sakamaki Izayoi

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 12:38 AM

You know this exaggerated brotherly love nonsense could've worked. Provided if it would've been done right. Provided if we would've seen that Naruto and Sasuke we're actually good friends in the beginning. And this is the problem Naruto and Sasuke were never friends, they were teammates.

Are you kidding with me?
He literally sacrificed his life to save Naruto durng the battle with Haku.
Later he was willing to sacrifice himself to let Naruto escape with Sakura on the fight with Gaara.
He indeed considered them as friends and even family at some point on which is proven true when he's lectured by Kakashi after his clash with Naruto on the hospital roof.
The fact is that Sasuke cut those bonds and left it behind to pursue his revenge.

 

Together they were good as teammates but nothing more. And we have to accept Naruto's obsession with Sasuke as true friendship because Kishimoto is hammering us with it and there is no absolutely nothing to back it up. For example we saw that Madara and Hashirama were friends before they were enemies and these characters were late introduced and we saw their bond in chapter 600 and something. But we didn't see that with you know the main characters.
Kishi hasn't shown us the brotherly bond between Naruto and Sasuke. He just alludes to it.
Look at Naruto and Sakura, we saw how their relationship grew, how they started to care for each other, we saw them as friends.

Naruto and Sasuke's bond were crushed after he left the village, but Naruto kept chasing him and to destroy the story Kishimoto turned the goal of bringing Sasuke back the center of the story and all the problems of the shinobi world and Naruto.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 24 April 2014 - 12:39 AM.

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#12 Inferno180

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 12:56 AM

The only thing that still makes sense to me anyways, it was how naruto was trying to get sasuke away from revenge, though the main point of this changed, theres still a sense of something sasuke needs to take vengeance on. This will more or less be revealed when we see his full motives after madara is dealt with. It was always a deal of how naruto knew what revenge could bring and how it felt when he faced nagato.

 

I mean things aren't exactly peachy with sasuke, he has stuff to take care of. But one part of it is, for however much of a mess sasuke is, kishi's doing what he feels is well, necessary. I mean jokes aside, he isn't the worst outright character in any series I've seen.

 

I mean in my case, the worst written character I ever saw was the tv series of Andrea from the walking dead, in a series full of character deaths and so on, hers was the most anticlimatic, no merits, nothing. She didnt accomplish much and after 3 seasons of bumbling and either being too much of a mess up, a narrisit, or just too too too freaking stupid, its like the wrtiers made her an instigating factor, the governor was an obvious villian, the writers gave her a whole new meaning to stupid its like how, how could her character, even in a scenario about survival not see this coming? Just how? Caution is the thing practically all other characters in this show used but not her. When she died at the end of season 3, practically no one cared. For a series where you know characters will die, this is just bad, there are no lasting impacts on anyone from her, not like say Shane, Lori, Dale, Sophia, Hershel, even the racist skinhead Meryl had closure and impact on Daryl.

 

If you ask me by comparison, Kishi has done stuff with sasuke and still trying to make it work despite the mess while in the walking dead, characters like andrea are just a prime example of how much worse it could be. Otherwise, at this point I'm convinced in part to just roll with it, deal with it, and see how it turns out. Its just too much more work to be concerned about sasuke's unorthodoxy. I'd rather say screw it lets see what kishi does even if its a heaping mess.


Edited by Inferno180, 24 April 2014 - 01:09 AM.


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#13 Hanabi

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 01:26 PM

no inferno don't spoil the plot of walking dead (at least spoiler tag the deaths) but i agree that andrea was a confusing character

 

ot: i vaguely remember there's something called character driven vs plot driven story from my storytelling technique class.. maybe kishi's going for the plot-driven storytelling technique and thus neglect his characters (unfortunately)


Edited by Hanabi, 24 April 2014 - 01:27 PM.

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#14 ramenanmitsu

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 03:31 PM

I understand what you're talking about, but part 1 was amazing and Sasuke was there, part 2 sustain my view that Sasuke's chase is what really screwed the story and the necessity of trying to save a "friend" who left the village on his own will, and how that become the main plot of the manga.That's all.

I absolutely agree with this. Saying that Sasuke is the sole reason that the story was destroyed is like saying bars are the reason why people become alcoholic, money is the reason why people become gamblers. No, the problem is not the object itself but how the people use or have a relationship with said object.

Like Darkerest said, part one was amazing and Sasuke was in it. Part two became very boring because Naruto started to revolve his life around Sasuke like a love-sick puppy and people started to get tired with +few hundred pages of "Sasukeeeeeeee come back" "No!" "Sasukeeeeeeeee come ba-" "No!" "Sasukeeeeeeeeee" "No!" Where is the end to this rinse and repeat? If Naruto wasn't so focused on Sasuke, there could have been so many other things he could have focused on. His Chuunin and then Jounin exams, Hokage training, Village conflicts, relationship with the other rookies, just to mention a few. But because Kishi made Naruto's life focus on Sasuke, we readers were taken away the possibility to see other potential plots and story lines that the Naruto universe could have provided us. Instead of having a completely new story every arc, we had to read the same old thing repeating itself again and again.

A similar scenario occurred in HunterxHunter but it sustained it's interesting story because when Killua disappeared Gon took him back within one arc which was probably only around 10-20 chapters. Later, Killua and Gon regained their friendship, trained together and continued their adventure together. Now we have a completely different story every arc and each new arc gets the fan excited of what is to come. Which I can't say for Naruto because we all know we're going to read Naruto focusing on Sasuke again and again.

Edited by ramenanmitsu, 24 April 2014 - 03:35 PM.

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#15 Nate River

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 04:00 PM

As the title suggests I’m going to talk about Sasuke and why everything is broken because of that.
 
In the past I said that Sasuke was too bipolar and Kishimoto just loves him too much. But I have to admit I was wrong. I finally understood why Sasuke is written the way he is and why everything is broken.
You see the problem is Sasuke. Because after Itachi was dealt with and that part of the story ended, Sasuke didn’t have a reason to exist anymore. After Itachi died, Sasuke ceased to existing as an individual character, as a person in this fictional story. The only thing left was Naruto wanting to bring him back thus turning Sasuke into an object. At that point you can take a ball write Sasuke on it and it could easily replace the real Sasuke and have Naruto chase after that ball and it will have the exact same outcome. And that’s where the problem occurs. Kishimoto needed to find ways to integrate Sasuke in almost everything, even things that have nothing to do with him.


He is not bi-polar. The track and why Sasuke keeps shifting is explained and fairly straight forward. The problem has more to do with believability on all sorts of fronts and not on basic logic on how he goes from point A to point. We know how and we know why. It's just real hard to buy.

The problem is actually much simpler and it's goes far beyond Sasuke. The basic problem is that Kishimoto wants to have it both ways: He wants the dark/tragedy angle without damaging the purity of his message. Not an easy feat (not sure it's a possible one) and the consequence is that believability (on so many fronts and from so many characters) is taken behind the woodshed and gored with a dull axe for most of part 2.

Revenge is bad and it leads you to do bad things. See pretty much all of Sasuke in Part 2. It led him down a "dark path," but going down a "dark" path tends to result in people say bad things and doing bad deeds. Such things have consequences that complicate Kishimoto's core goal because people (audience and characters) have to accept and/or deal with the warts created by such actions. The worse the deeds the harder it is to believe that he'd would or even should be accepted back into the fold.

The primary solution to this problem is seen in Nagato and Obito. Have Naruto "reform" (without killing)them and then let die anyway, but not before a post hoc heroic deed to show that they are "reformed" and that Naruto was right all along. It's sucked the first time, but that it happens every time and is just an awful piece of writing.

It's a total dodge of the issues and complications. It also means Naruto never has to defend his decisions to those who'd have every right to object. He chose his path, but he's never made to answer for it.

Sasuke is pretty much in the same boat, but now rather then have him perform heroic deed and die "reformed" Kishimoto wants a live body that lives in Konoha again. Alright, so what is the solution? I think Kishimoto is totally aware that it's a non-starter with Obito and Nagato because of what they did. Even if execution is hard to forgo (real hard to believe anyway given the rules laid down earlier), I think Kishimoto doesn't think having them die in the slammer is meaningful redemption. At least it appears that way.

So, for Sasuke the solution is two-fold and explains his erratic characterization.

(1) He, for the most part, dances on the edge of darkness rather than going all in like Obito and Nagato. He says things like he wants to kill Naruto and destroy Konoha, but is redirected before he can do it because it would be a problem if he were to be accept back into a village he just razed. Who'd believe that? To the extent he is allowed to be "dark" he never does anything that cannot be undone. Hence, Karin lives and forgives him in less time than it takes to tie my shoes. It is why the only people who he may have (dunno if they died) killed are mooks and those he does kill are giant pieces of crap nobody is sad to see dead (deidara and Danzo). It's also why the K9 and company resistance to Naruto's quest is so pathetic.

(2) He is joining the fight against Madara before the redemption occurs. This will be his good deed (regardless of motivation).
 
The down side of this is evident: The erratic characterization problem is the small one. The bigger ones are the issue dodging, baffling characterizations (Karin especially), the fact that almost nobody is asking questions when they should, and the ones who do are easily pacified and offer no meaningful resistance (what is a counter argument again?), the fact that Naruto purses a contrarion view without having to defend squat, and finally, the total abdication and merciless destruction of personal accountability and responsibility.

It's real tough to believe. It's sad too because so much depth and development is ditched to avoid obvious complications.
 

Because if he doesn’t Sasuke stops existing as an individual character and all that’s left is for Naruto to bring back his pet.
You want proof of that? The biggest proof is the current war. Sasuke has absolutely nothing to do with the war. Yet Kishi was forced to find a way to shove Sasuke in it. Everything Kishimoto has done with Sasuke after Itachi’s death wasn’t planned at all. When it comes to Sasuke, Kishi is winging it.
For example if you go back and pay attention you’ll realize that Kishimoto wanted Naruto to be the reincarnation of the Rikudou Sennin or have the same ideals as the Rikudou. However if he would’ve done that, then Sasuke was going to be left out. And again Sasuke becomes an object.


Sasuke does have a reason. Even if get rid of "Hokage" there is no promise that Sasuke would be allowed to remain on top. He was never brought in on the true plan and if Madara succeeds, no one is spared. This is never stated though.
 

I want to imagine if Naruto became Hokage in chapter 300 and in chapter 301 he found the answer to bring peace in order forever. If that would’ve happened then Kishimoto would need to find different ways to keep Naruto relevant until the end of the story. And that’s exactly what happened to Sasuke his part of the story was over when Itachi disappeared. Then only thing left was for Naruto to bring back his lost pet.


I wish I remember who convinced me of this, but Naruto attachment is perfectly understandable in light of his past: he had such a tough time forging bonds that he holds tight to all, but this idea is never explored. It'd have been interesting, too bad.
 

That’s why Kishi gave us this nonsensical explanation that Sasuke is the reincarnation of Indra and Naruto is the reincarnation of Ashura. In order to keep Sasuke as a character and not someone who can be easily replaced by an object. And to level the plain field, Naruto was 10 times more powerful than Sasuke.


That explanation is nonsense because it's totally contrived and takes away from the personal dimensions of the fight. It's meant to show just how monumental and long-standing the conflict is, but personal, specific reasons tend to be more moving than nods to "destiny" and "fate." It's so awful in part because it's so vague and so unnecessary. The Sage's very existence is unnecessary, but it should have stopped with him. We didn't need the info dump we got about him and Kaguya.
 

power-ups was needed in order to bring him to Naruto’s level. Ironically isn’t it? The guy that was said to be a genius and doesn’t need anyone to help him needs other people to help in order to be on equal ground as the guy who worked his ass off in order to get where he is.


So has Naruto. It was quiet the gem to get a lecture about hard work on Ashura right before handing him free power-ups. Bravo.

As for the Sharingan, it's been clear for some time it's triggers are pyschological. It's never been something portrayed as you simply train to get. Where it flew of track was constantly adding powers (Izangi, Izanami (which makes no sense), perfect Susanoo) and ones that are so out of whack with the powers most people posses. Oh, and the Rinnegan being the melding of the sons chakra...what the hell?

It was cool at the Amaterasu stage. In Part 2, it went to hell.

I am more bothered about so many free powers because he laid down most of the grounds rules about how ninja get their abilities in Part 1 only to take a massive dump on them in Part 2.
 

Sasuke is the reincarnation of Indra? Yeah right. Indra could do anything on his own; he didn’t need help in order to be become strong. Sasuke on the other hand needed Orochimaru’s help, Itachi’s help, Hashirama’s help, the Rikudou Sennin’s help and even Naruto’s help in order to get where he is now.  Everyone gives Sasuke free power-ups.
I can already feel the hate from the Sasuke fanboys.


How is this less believable than Naruto's heritage? A loser? Sure thing, Kishi.
 

With Naruto, Kishi has been consistent while Sasuke is all over the place. Kishi needs to keep Sasuke relevant. However Kishi is struggling to fit Sasuke in situations where he just doesn’t belong. Like I said Sasuke’s character was over when Itachi died. Now I hate to say this but that part of the story should’ve been dragged out. And the reason I said I hate this is because I hate things that are dragged out in a story.


I used to think so, too. However, at this point, I think part of Sasuke journey is finding out what HE wants because so many people have spent so much time manipulating him and draggin him around. He bears responsibility for doing what he has done, but I'm not sure he has ever really thought for himself when it comes to what he wants out of this. So, I don't think it's all over the place, it's just plagued with holes and disbelief all over the place.
 

Now here is the real problem what Kishimoto is forced to do with Sasuke also affects everything as well. This is why we have the retcons, the inconsistencies, the asspulls, the overly exaggerated brotherly bond, characters not getting proper development and on and on. These are the prices to pay to keep Sasuke relevant. Everything that’s wrong with this story is because of Sasuke.
 
Now there are two possibilities why he’s doing this either Kishimoto really loves Sasuke or someone higher than him told him to keep Sasuke relevant because his fans love him. I’m pretty confident it’s the latter because if Kishimoto really loved Sasuke then he would’ve given him proper development.
Remember free power-ups doesn’t mean development.


I don't think he was forced to this by his story. He was forced to do this because because he wants to have his cake and eat it, too.

#16 ramenanmitsu

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 04:33 PM

Nate's post is so perfect and well thought-out that I can't stop reading it. There were many points that I didn't think about before, but after reading Nate's post I can't stop but agree to everything.

I briefly remember of myself being annoyed that Itachi and Hashirama were the two people that prompted Sasuke to fight for the Shinobi alliance. Sasuke seemed like the impossible task Naruto had to handle but it ended up being ultimately solved by Itachi and Hashirama. Now Naruto's job is to make Sasuke acknowledge him, and see the way how Naruto wants to protect the village. Turning a person from being completely evil to protecting the people, is so much more harder than turning a person from a dictator to a democratic person. It's like Kishi knew there was no way Naruto can change Sasuke from evil to good, so instead he gave the hard part of the job to more capable people leaving Naruto with easier tasks so people can still give the hero credit. In the end, we're left with an unsatisfied taste. "Eh this is the solution? What an easy job with barely any conflict!"

P.S I believe Kishi should have at least made Sasuke kill the rookie 9 or one of the Kages in the five Kage summit.

Edited by ramenanmitsu, 24 April 2014 - 04:56 PM.

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#17 Nate River

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 04:54 PM

Nate's post is so perfect and well thought-out that I can't stop reading it. There were many points that I didn't think about before, but after reading Nate's post I can't stop but agree to everything.

I briefly remember of myself being annoyed that Itachi and Hashirama were the two people that prompted Sasuke to fight for the Shinobi alliance. Sasuke seemed like the impossible task Naruto had to handle but it ended up being ultimately solved by Itachi and Hashirama. Now Naruto's job is to make Sasuke acknowledge him, and see the way how Naruto wants to protect the village. Turning a person from being completely evil to protecting the people, is so much more harder than turning a person from a dictator to a democratic person. It's like Kishi knew there was no way Naruto can change Sasuke from evil to good, so instead he gave the job to more capable people leaving Naruto with easier tasks so people can still give the hero credit.



I dislike the handling of Itachi after his death. I think the main reason was for closure, but life like is like that. We don't always get it. I would have prefered Sasuke deal with the contrasting images and life of his brother on his own and not have Itachi do it for him.

Itachi should have been torn a new one for some of the things he did and everyone just ignores it while he goes about robbing Naruto of part of his purpose.

It's bizzare that Itachi is one of the few that "accepts" responsibility for what he did before he dies, but goes about doing so by mind raping his younger brother so he can be held "accountable" for murdering his clan. Notice how no in series seems bothered by this at all. Let's also not forget Itachi signed off whatever Sasuke did, even if it meant laying waste to his sarifice.

EDIT: I don't care if stayed dark or remained more on self-discovery, just so long as he stuck with it and stopped side-stepping the consequences of that choice.

#18 Sakamaki Izayoi

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 06:51 PM

Nate's post is so perfect and well thought-out that I can't stop reading it. There were many points that I didn't think about before, but after reading Nate's post I can't stop but agree to everything.

I briefly remember of myself being annoyed that Itachi and Hashirama were the two people that prompted Sasuke to fight for the Shinobi alliance. Sasuke seemed like the impossible task Naruto had to handle but it ended up being ultimately solved by Itachi and Hashirama. Now Naruto's job is to make Sasuke acknowledge him, and see the way how Naruto wants to protect the village. Turning a person from being completely evil to protecting the people, is so much more harder than turning a person from a dictator to a democratic person. It's like Kishi knew there was no way Naruto can change Sasuke from evil to good, so instead he gave the hard part of the job to more capable people leaving Naruto with easier tasks so people can still give the hero credit. In the end, we're left with an unsatisfied taste. "Eh this is the solution? What an easy job with barely any conflict!"

P.S I believe Kishi should have at least made Sasuke kill the rookie 9 or one of the Kages in the five Kage summit.

Yep, the fact Itachi and Hashirama handled this showed that there was no necessity for Naruto to chase Sasuke three times.
It was pointless, the summit was pointless, the first rescue attempt was pointless, the second Sasuke's chase with the help of k11 was pointless.
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#19 Shadow1275

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 08:19 PM

The problem with Sasuke and Sakura? Kishimoto is a SasuKishi Fan :wink:


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#20 Nostradamus

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 10:21 PM

Are you kidding with me?
He literally sacrificed his life to save Naruto durng the battle with Haku.
Later he was willing to sacrifice himself to let Naruto escape with Sakura on the fight with Gaara.
He indeed considered them as friends and even family at some point on which is proven true when he's lectured by Kakashi after his clash with Naruto on the hospital roof.
The fact is that Sasuke cut those bonds and left it behind to pursue his revenge.

 
Naruto and Sasuke's bond were crushed after he left the village, but Naruto kept chasing him and to destroy the story Kishimoto turned the goal of bringing Sasuke back the center of the story and all the problems of the shinobi world and Naruto.

No I'm not kidding. The truth is we've never seen the Naruto and Sasuke great friendship that Kishimoto keeps alluding too. We saw them as teammates. Yes you are correct Sasuke did "sacrifice" his life to save Naruto against Haku. But that doesn't mean that Naruto and Sasuke are best friends. Kakashi was willing to do the same against Zabuza. Does that mean Naruto, Sakura and Sasuke are BFF with Kakashi? Sorry but no.

Naruto and Sakura are actually friends. We saw how their bond grew, what they are willing to do for each other, how selfless they are towards each other, they spend time together, etc.

Naruto and Sasuke on the other hand. We saw them training together, fight together and then Sasuke started to get jealous because Naruto started to be more powerful and then Sasuke left. And later on we got flashbacks of Naruto watching Sasuke's back and wanting to talk to him and hangout with him. What a magnificent friendship. Now I'm not denying there wasn't a bond between Naruto and Sasuke. I'm just saying it's not as powerful as Kishimoto keeps reminding us.

You know what's interesting? It's the fact that within the story itself we have moments that tell us that the bond between Naruto and Sasuke doesn't make sense. Jiraiya telling Naruto "Do friends do this to each other" at the end of part 1. Sakura telling Naruto that chasing after Sasuke is just plain stupid. Sasuke telling Naruto "WTF is wrong with you?" so the writer is aware that NaruSasu doesn't really make sense. Yet he keeps shoving the bond between those two down your throats.

 

 

He is not bi-polar. The track and why Sasuke keeps shifting is explained and fairly straight forward. The problem has more to do with believability on all sorts of fronts and not on basic logic on how he goes from point A to point. We know how and we know why. It's just real hard to buy.

The problem is actually much simpler and it's goes far beyond Sasuke. The basic problem is that Kishimoto wants to have it both ways: He wants the dark/tragedy angle without damaging the purity of his message. Not an easy feat (not sure it's a possible one) and the consequence is that believability (on so many fronts and from so many characters) is taken behind the woodshed and gored with a dull axe for most of part 2.

Revenge is bad and it leads you to do bad things. See pretty much all of Sasuke in Part 2. It led him down a "dark path," but going down a "dark" path tends to result in people say bad things and doing bad deeds. Such things have consequences that complicate Kishimoto's core goal because people (audience and characters) have to accept and/or deal with the warts created by such actions. The worse the deeds the harder it is to believe that he'd would or even should be accepted back into the fold.

The primary solution to this problem is seen in Nagato and Obito. Have Naruto "reform" (without killing)them and then let die anyway, but not before a post hoc heroic deed to show that they are "reformed" and that Naruto was right all along. It's sucked the first time, but that it happens every time and is just an awful piece of writing.

It's a total dodge of the issues and complications. It also means Naruto never has to defend his decisions to those who'd have every right to object. He chose his path, but he's never made to answer for it.

Sasuke is pretty much in the same boat, but now rather then have him perform heroic deed and die "reformed" Kishimoto wants a live body that lives in Konoha again. Alright, so what is the solution? I think Kishimoto is totally aware that it's a non-starter with Obito and Nagato because of what they did. Even if execution is hard to forgo (real hard to believe anyway given the rules laid down earlier), I think Kishimoto doesn't think having them die in the slammer is meaningful redemption. At least it appears that way.

So, for Sasuke the solution is two-fold and explains his erratic characterization.

(1) He, for the most part, dances on the edge of darkness rather than going all in like Obito and Nagato. He says things like he wants to kill Naruto and destroy Konoha, but is redirected before he can do it because it would be a problem if he were to be accept back into a village he just razed. Who'd believe that? To the extent he is allowed to be "dark" he never does anything that cannot be undone. Hence, Karin lives and forgives him in less time than it takes to tie my shoes. It is why the only people who he may have (dunno if they died) killed are mooks and those he does kill are giant pieces of crap nobody is sad to see dead (deidara and Danzo). It's also why the K9 and company resistance to Naruto's quest is so pathetic.

(2) He is joining the fight against Madara before the redemption occurs. This will be his good deed (regardless of motivation).
 
The down side of this is evident: The erratic characterization problem is the small one. The bigger ones are the issue dodging, baffling characterizations (Karin especially), the fact that almost nobody is asking questions when they should, and the ones who do are easily pacified and offer no meaningful resistance (what is a counter argument again?), the fact that Naruto purses a contrarion view without having to defend squat, and finally, the total abdication and merciless destruction of personal accountability and responsibility.

It's real tough to believe. It's sad too because so much depth and development is ditched to avoid obvious complications.

 

My problem is the fact that Sasuke is all over the place after Itachi died and that part of the story ended. After Tobi told him the truth Sasuke partially believed Tobi. After Danzo confirmed that what Tobi said was truth, Sasuke decided to kill everyone in Konoha to "restore" his clan. So far acceptable, it's part of his character, the whole revenge. After Itachi showed him what really happened, Sasuke decides to find the truth behind everything to which Orochimaru points out that maybe he doesn't want revenge anymore on Konoha. We find out that Sasuke still wants revenge and after meeting Itachi that desire for revenge grew. Then after hearing a bed time story from Hashirama; Sasuke decides to protect the Konoha. Which doesn't make any sense for multiple reasons. One of them is that Hashirama's story didn't contain any revelation at all. Something that can make Sasuke go "Oh crap I had it wrong all along". And now he wants to be Hokage or God knows what he wants.

I get the fact that Kishi wants to keep Sasuke on the evil/good path in order to redeem him but at least have Sasuke pick a path and stick with it. Not dance around in circles.

The rest of it you are right.

 


Sasuke does have a reason. Even if get rid of "Hokage" there is no promise that Sasuke would be allowed to remain on top. He was never brought in on the true plan and if Madara succeeds, no one is spared. This is never stated though.
 

I wish I remember who convinced me of this, but Naruto attachment is perfectly understandable in light of his past: he had such a tough time forging bonds that he holds tight to all, but this idea is never explored. It'd have been interesting, too bad.
 

That explanation is nonsense because it's totally contrived and takes away from the personal dimensions of the fight. It's meant to show just how monumental and long-standing the conflict is, but personal, specific reasons tend to be more moving than nods to "destiny" and "fate." It's so awful in part because it's so vague and so unnecessary. The Sage's very existence is unnecessary, but it should have stopped with him. We didn't need the info dump we got about him and Kaguya.

 

Truth is we didn't need to find out that Sasuke is the reincarnation of Indra and Naruto is Ashura. All we needed to know is that the Rikudou fought the Juubi sealed it. Then created the ninja system to inspire people, they got it wrong and continued to fight with each other. Then he split the Juubi and gave the Bijuus a message that one that someone  with a "golden" heart will change the world. And the fact that he choose Ashura as successor and Indra got mad and that's how the war between the Senju and Uchiha began.

The part with Kaguya and the Byakugan, I think it was done in order to cover his ass. He mentioned that the Byakugan was the "father" of all eye techniques, it was the best. And he never actually explored it.

 

So has Naruto. It was quiet the gem to get a lecture about hard work on Ashura right before handing him free power-ups. Bravo.

 

:lol:  Correct me if I'm wrong but this is the first time Naruto received a free power-up. So far we saw Naruto training for the things he got. Rasengan, Sage mode, even the Kyuubi a power-up that was technically handed to him.

 

As for the Sharingan, it's been clear for some time it's triggers are pyschological. It's never been something portrayed as you simply train to get. Where it flew of track was constantly adding powers (Izangi, Izanami (which makes no sense), perfect Susanoo) and ones that are so out of whack with the powers most people posses. Oh, and the Rinnegan being the melding of the sons chakra...what the hell?

It was cool at the Amaterasu stage. In Part 2, it went to hell.

I am more bothered about so many free powers because he laid down most of the grounds rules about how ninja get their abilities in Part 1 only to take a massive dump on them in Part 2.
 

How is this less believable than Naruto's heritage? A loser? Sure thing, Kishi.
 

I used to think so, too. However, at this point, I think part of Sasuke journey is finding out what HE wants because so many people have spent so much time manipulating him and draggin him around. He bears responsibility for doing what he has done, but I'm not sure he has ever really thought for himself when it comes to what he wants out of this. So, I don't think it's all over the place, it's just plagued with holes and disbelief all over the place.
 

OK understandable but why cannot he just stop for a moment think really hard on what exactly he wants and then stick with it. To quote Jeremy Clarkson from Top Gear. How hard can it be?

I don't think he was forced to this by his story. He was forced to do this because because he wants to have his cake and eat it, too.

I have a question for you or anyone who can answer it. How did you split my comment in order to reply to specific parts of it? I've seen this before and I would've done it to but I don't know how. 


Edited by Nostradamus, 25 April 2014 - 12:33 AM.

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Which I've told you - time and time again - is dangerous! There will never be consensus, son, among those you have helped to ascend. They will all differ in their views of what it means to be free. The peace you so desperately seek does not exist.
 
These men are united now by a common cause. But when this battle is finished they will fall to fighting amongst themselves about how best to ensure control. In time it will lead to war. You will see.





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