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Konoha and Tobirama demonization


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#61 Tiller

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 05:48 PM

 

Again AHK?

 

naruto-3895199.jpg

 

Just look at what Orochimaru said, even if Tobirama didn't really wanted to isolate them, he ended up doing it 

 

just look

 

Orochimaru is simply wrong. All you have to do is look at the story. The Uchiha that were loyal to Madara were rebelling before Tobirama was even Hokage, they started following him because his actions brought pride in them, when before hand they all ignored Madara's desires. Had Madara simply accepted the fact that his stupid Uchiha pride was outdated none of this would have happened. Because Madara rose up, and because the 1st didn't kill him outright the seeds were planted for the Uchiha's fall. The Uchiha's clans pride is what lead to their fall.

 

Secondly Orochimaru's excuse is just kitten insane if applied to any logical act, and he is seemingly saying it in order to alter the feelings of the kitten insane Sasuke. Police officers no matter how much they are disliked by elements of the public, aren't leading coups the world over. The Uchiha's problems are routed back to Madara and his actions, and their veneration of him. Without their stupid pride they never would have thought of themselves as "better then this". Had they simply learned to join together to prove their detractors wrong and instead had pride in the fact that they were equals to any other clan nothing would have happened to the Uchiha. But that isn't what the being an Uchiha is about. They are the elite, the best, the greatest. Who created that legend? Madara of course. The Uchiha were "to good" to be simple cops, and because of that they had a right and duty to their own supremacy to put themselves back on top where they belonged.

 

Which is the problem with the whole "clan" identification to begin with. Which is what this story was originally about. This story started about an orphan boy, who came from a family of no particular importance, rising up by hard work and self worth in order to challenge the ruinous established traditions. It's why Naruto is placed against Neji, Neji is the perfect representation of the ideals of the old order. Neji believes you are born into a certain family, a certain class, a certain occupation, and there is nothing you can do to change that. You must follow your fate to the end no matter the consequences, as such and to fight against it is to challenge the will of the Gods. Naruto on the other hand representing modernity, rejects these notions in order to defend the natural God given right of every human being, who rise and fall throughout society based on their own actions and deeds. You could even reject the labels your family put on you according the Naruto. Which is an idea Neji can't stand because his own father died because of the label his family placed on him.

 

What does this have to do with the Uchiha? Everything. The family were originally destroyed by an elitist kitten. At first we believed that Itachi murdered the clan for his own desire of power. Knowing that his strength increased by murdering his best friend, it was also hinted at that he murdered the clan so his power would continue to be concentrated further. Which is also why he allowed Sasuke to live. He needed him to become more powerful, and eventual reach a level near Itachi, so later Itachi could kill him for his eyes and become stronger yet.

 

In that story the Uchiha are massacred because of myths in their family tree, and they were destroyed from within because of those old cancerous ideals.

 

Then Itachi became Jesus, and instead the Uchiha were planning to rise on their own. Which completely destroyed the original theme of the story. Now the story was not about the rights of all people even the orphaned and abused like Naruto and Sasuke. It became about the importance of your birth. Naruto was great not because of how hard he worked, but ultimately because he was the son of the 4th. Hell this point is driven home when his dead father saves him. Sasuke? His "revenge" doesn't become directed towards one broken man, but instead towards the world itself, because "the Uchiha were better then where they were" and in fact were betrayed by one of their own. The Uchiha couldn't be stopped by "lesser" clans, oh no not the mighty Uhciha. It required that they be taken down by one of their own, so they also needed to be avenged by one of their own.

 

Then it gets worst. Naruto and Sasuke are reincarnated royal brothers. You see this whole time their actions and in fact entire lives have been directed by the actions of their former selves. They aren't only living out their own fate, they have no other options but to live out their own fates. Why is this time going to be different? Simple it's destined to be different this time, because they failed before hand.

 

What does this have to do with Oro's talk about the Uchiha? Well in my mind it's obvious. The Uchiha being the victims only makes sense if the you accept that the story is completely broken down from the start, and the alterations were planted long ago that eventually would break the story. The Uchiha can be many things, but victims who had no real choice in their destiny is not one of them. Which is the main problem with the idea of the Uchiha rebelling. This story made much more sense theme wise in part one.

 

So then we must come to one simple conclusion, a conclusion that Kishimoto doesn't want us to pick up on. The Uchiha brought this all upon themselves in the end. Well Kishimoto can't have that can he? After all Sasuke is to big of a draw, and he wants to tell a story about forgiveness. So what does he do? He comes up with this stupid storyline about how they were being oppressed, because they were so much better then their station in life. Why are they so important? Because they are the great Uchiha clan, they founded the village, but their lessers feared them so they tried to contain their greatness! They are better then mere police officers. The Uchiha are born to rule, not be simple civil servants!

 

Which is why this is a broken story. It started as a story about the dignity of all people no matter who they are, and ended up being about the importance of the station you were born into. The theme was flipped on it's head half way threw the story, which is why this "Uchiha are just victims", feels like complete kitten to so many of us. It makes no sense in this world as it has been set up. The story worked much better when the Uchiha were destroyed from within because of their clans legends. When Kishimoto attempted to put the blame on "the system" he broke the moral of his story. Especially when in the end "the system" isn't changed at all, Naruto keeps things the way they always were he simply leads it now. Why did Sasuke stop fighting? Was it because Naruto showed him that the system works? Nope, it was because Naruto punched him really hard, and Sasuke loves him to much.

 

To complete untangle the problems with this story would take to long, but the Uchiha being "victims" is a huge part of it. They can't be "victims" because their actions are what lead to their downfall, actions they freely choose. They choose to take over the village simply because of their own arrogance, and belief in their superiority, that they are much better then what the village thinks of them. An idea that was originally rejected in this very same story earlier on, but later we are suppose to relate to the Uchiha's struggles. Why? Who knows. Kishimoto makes it perfectly clear the the legends and customs of the Hyuga clan are outdate, anti human, and disgusting. The Uchiha legends and customs though? They are somehow "honorable" and worthy of death, well the system around them (the belief in individuals coming together for the village) is what is disgusting. Well you can't have it both ways. Either individuality is what is important or your destiny is what is important you can't have both. In the end we get this strange "right of kings" style of message with Naruto and Sasuke being the eternal princes who decide the fate of the universe because it is their choice to make by a birthright that happened in their former lives.

 

Free will vs destiny was one of the corner stones of this story. The fact that it was flipped on it's head in the end is the huge fault line in this tale, and in the end that starts largely as a way to excuse the actions of the Uchiha clan, and by extension of course to excuse the actions of Sasuke Uchiha.



 


#62 Tiller

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 06:10 PM

To put it more simply for people who don't want to read my rant. I'll say I can understand why people say that Konoha is the problem, after all Kishimoto set it up so people would say that. The problem is that, that very notion doesn't work with the story he told before hand. It simply breaks what has been set up and completely ruins the story. In other words it doesn't make sense.

 

It's one thing to show that Konoha has made mistakes, in fact I support most stories that show the problems and evil of government in general. Which could have been told with the "free will vs destiny" story that was set up rather easily. But Kishimoto broke his free will theme, and his complete reversal on it is one of the main problems with the tale. Which is why the excuse as it is written just seems so hollow to so many of us. Peoples free will and actions are shown to be the driving force of the entire Narutoverse in part 1. In party 2 we are then suppose to by into this notion that the Uchiha are victims of a corrupt system at which their only choice was to rebel, because their family is destined for better things then where they currently are. It just makes no sense with the themes of part one. Either men and women are in control of their own lives, or people simply must follow their destiny as it is whether they want to or not. In the end Kishimoto choose to show us that people are destined to be who they are, especially after adding the "Naruto and Sasuke are soul brothers" angle.

 

Of course it doesn't help that this happened seemingly in order to excuse the actions of two of Kishimoto's more popular characters. Itachi and Sasuke Uchiha.



 


#63 HalfDemonInuyasha

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 08:16 PM

@Tiller

And the "Curse of Hatred" was Kishi's ultimate attempt at absolving Sasuke and the Uchiha Clan of any responsibility their own choice of actions had in their downfall, trying to make it look like it was completely out of their hands because they were essentially predestined to "go down a dark path" all because "they love more than anyone"...or some backwards logic like that...

It's just further showing that, had Kishi kept things simple and straightforward like Toriyama does with Dragon Ball stuff, perhaps the story, even without Yahagi and such, could have turned out a lot better, but instead, Kishi tried to make it all deep, meaningful, gray area'ed, and so on, but clearly did not know how without completely contradicting other/previous words/actions/events and/or making people look like hypocrites.


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#64 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 08:31 PM

@Tiller

And the "Curse of Hatred" was Kishi's ultimate attempt at absolving Sasuke and the Uchiha Clan of any responsibility their own choice of actions had in their downfall, trying to make it look like it was completely out of their hands because they were essentially predestined to "go down a dark path" all because "they love more than anyone"...or some backwards logic like that...

It's just further showing that, had Kishi kept things simple and straightforward like Toriyama does with Dragon Ball stuff, perhaps the story, even without Yahagi and such, could have turned out a lot better, but instead, Kishi tried to make it all deep, meaningful, gray area'ed, and so on, but clearly did not know how without completely contradicting other/previous words/actions/events and/or making people look like hypocrites.

 

Yeah, exactly, buddy. It's the one thing I hated; why couldn't the Curse of Hatred be something universal to ALL humans who possess chakra, especially after Kaguya brought it into the world by eating the fruit of the Divine Tree and then Hagoromo and Hamura showing it to the world...?? It would have been so much better if it'd just stemmed from the feelings of hatred existing so deeply that it drives any human to do twisted and evil things, so that that way, it doesn't absolve responsibility, and that all are equal with it, since that's how hatred is; it can be a curse to all who suffer it, no matter how small it may seem at first.



#65 Tiller

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 10:46 PM

The curse just further drives home the point that the theme of this story was flipped. Largely to excuse the actions of Sasuke, Itachi, and the other Uchiha.

 

This story should have never had such an excuse. When Sasuke became a villian he should have stayed that way. The story was just so much better when the world was set up so that it was created by the collective choices of the people in it. Instead of this "destiny" kick that it became. Half the reason Naruto was intersting in part 1 was because he was a kid who was the victim of injustices, but instead of wanting to make the world feel like he did, he instead wanted to make the world a better place for everyone through his own action. This was in contrast with Sasuke who was willing to let the world burn so long as his personal revenge was completed.

 

Hell one of the first reasons I couldn't stand SS was because Sakura didn't understand Sasuke, and because of Sasuke's character he had no reason to give a damn about her beyond what it could do for his revenge. Which is why he had no problem trying to kill herm multiple times... but no no no Sasuke's cool, he wasn't an asshat. Oh no! He didn't have a choice in the matter! People don't make their own way in the world, oh no! No you see we all have a destiny that we must follow whether we want to or not... just like Neji said all those years ago... which is why he must die... he gave up on the one true faith. Plus as a character he exist ultimately so Hinata can get the kitten from Naruto. I can't believe that it's canon, but it is. That was the ultiamte purpose of his story now according to Kishimoto.

 

I really need to stop thinking about this crap. I think I'm losing IQ points by the week.



 


#66 Nar123

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 12:54 AM

 

Orochimaru is simply wrong. All you have to do is look at the story. The Uchiha that were loyal to Madara were rebelling before Tobirama was even Hokage, they started following him because his actions brought pride in them, when before hand they all ignored Madara's desires. Had Madara simply accepted the fact that his stupid Uchiha pride was outdated none of this would have happened. Because Madara rose up, and because the 1st didn't kill him outright the seeds were planted for the Uchiha's fall. The Uchiha's clans pride is what lead to their fall.

 

 

How can Orochimaru be "simply wrong" when his information regarding the matter was never denied in the series, and was also never disputed considering the fact that it is still our only information regarding why the Uchiha decided to rebel? 

 

And also, of course there were Madara loyal Uchihas in the clan, but they only gained true strenght after the aftermath of Tobirama's decisions that ended up making hte Uchihas resent the village, yes, the matter of pride was involved too but it was only one factor.

 

The Uchiha clan's fall had it's beginning with Tobirama's actions not with Madara, remember, when Madara sought help from his clan members after he decided to leave the village, the majority of them refused deciding to stay loyal to konoha, this changed however because of the way Tobirama executed his decisions regarding them

 

 

 

 

Secondly Orochimaru's excuse is just kitten insane if applied to any logical act, and he is seemingly saying it in order to alter the feelings of the kitten insane Sasuke. Police officers no matter how much they are disliked by elements of the public, aren't leading coups the world over. The Uchiha's problems are routed back to Madara and his actions, and their veneration of him. Without their stupid pride they never would have thought of themselves as "better then this". Had they simply learned to join together to prove their detractors wrong and instead had pride in the fact that they were equals to any other clan nothing would have happened to the Uchiha. But that isn't what the being an Uchiha is about. They are the elite, the best, the greatest. Who created that legend? Madara of course. The Uchiha were "to good" to be simple cops, and because of that they had a right and duty to their own supremacy to put themselves back on top where they belonged.

 

 

 

 

You forgot that the Uchiha suffered through segregration too thanks to Tobirama's ill executed decisions, the fact that their pride sparked up due to their position and that they were disliked by the populace contributed to everything else, yes, but nevertheless it is a fact that Tobirama made a poor decision in giving the police force to the Uchiha and that was what originated everything. Focus on poor decision, as a leader Tobirama should receive the blame for letting such thing happen due to his decision...it is strange isn't, they were fine in Hashirama's era and suddenly on Tobirama's everything changed...why didn't Tobirama just chose to adopt his brother's policy regarding the clans is beyond me but his prejudice probably played a big part in the decisions he chose to take 

 

 

 

 

Which is the problem with the whole "clan" identification to begin with. Which is what this story was originally about. This story started about an orphan boy, who came from a family of no particular importance, rising up by hard work and self worth in order to challenge the ruinous established traditions. It's why Naruto is placed against Neji, Neji is the perfect representation of the ideals of the old order. Neji believes you are born into a certain family, a certain class, a certain occupation, and there is nothing you can do to change that. You must follow your fate to the end no matter the consequences, as such and to fight against it is to challenge the will of the Gods. Naruto on the other hand representing modernity, rejects these notions in order to defend the natural God given right of every human being, who rise and fall throughout society based on their own actions and deeds. You could even reject the labels your family put on you according the Naruto. Which is an idea Neji can't stand because his own father died because of the label his family placed on him.

 

What does this have to do with the Uchiha? Everything. The family were originally destroyed by an elitist kitten. At first we believed that Itachi murdered the clan for his own desire of power. Knowing that his strength increased by murdering his best friend, it was also hinted at that he murdered the clan so his power would continue to be concentrated further. Which is also why he allowed Sasuke to live. He needed him to become more powerful, and eventual reach a level near Itachi, so later Itachi could kill him for his eyes and become stronger yet.

 

In that story the Uchiha are massacred because of myths in their family tree, and they were destroyed from within because of those old cancerous ideals.

 

Then Itachi became Jesus, and instead the Uchiha were planning to rise on their own. Which completely destroyed the original theme of the story. Now the story was not about the rights of all people even the orphaned and abused like Naruto and Sasuke. It became about the importance of your birth. Naruto was great not because of how hard he worked, but ultimately because he was the son of the 4th. Hell this point is driven home when his dead father saves him. Sasuke? His "revenge" doesn't become directed towards one broken man, but instead towards the world itself, because "the Uchiha were better then where they were" and in fact were betrayed by one of their own. The Uchiha couldn't be stopped by "lesser" clans, oh no not the mighty Uhciha. It required that they be taken down by one of their own, so they also needed to be avenged by one of their own.

 

Then it gets worst. Naruto and Sasuke are reincarnated royal brothers. You see this whole time their actions and in fact entire lives have been directed by the actions of their former selves. They aren't only living out their own fate, they have no other options but to live out their own fates. Why is this time going to be different? Simple it's destined to be different this time, because they failed before hand.

 

 

 

 

I agree with part of your comment about how the story lost it's original value and messages but Itachi's situation was already foreshadowed back in part 1 if I'm not mistaken, the plot twist was nice and added depth to the character so I certainly don't think it was a bad thing...since Itachi became instead of another one note villain, a deeply flawed and misguided character, the only problem was that he came back during thte war as a edo tensei and Kishi proceeded to transform him in a Gary Stu

 

 

 

 

What does this have to do with Oro's talk about the Uchiha? Well in my mind it's obvious. The Uchiha being the victims only makes sense if the you accept that the story is completely broken down from the start, and the alterations were planted long ago that eventually would break the story. The Uchiha can be many things, but victims who had no real choice in their destiny is not one of them. Which is the main problem with the idea of the Uchiha rebelling. This story made much more sense theme wise in part one.

 

 

 

 

 

I never said and never defended they were victims, they have their blame in the way everything happened too, their pride contributed for example because they never sought a peaceful solution in the pre massacre situation.

 

What I'm saying is htat Konoha should also take part of the blame because they failed too, Tobirama, Sarutobi...these hokages failed. Tobirama gave start to the rebellious feelings within the clan and Sarutobi let Danzo run wild doing his things which contributed to Shisui being unable actively stop the massacre from happening in first place

 

 

So then we must come to one simple conclusion, a conclusion that Kishimoto doesn't want us to pick up on. The Uchiha brought this all upon themselves in the end. Well Kishimoto can't have that can he? After all Sasuke is to big of a draw, and he wants to tell a story about forgiveness. So what does he do? He comes up with this stupid storyline about how they were being oppressed, because they were so much better then their station in life. Why are they so important? Because they are the great Uchiha clan, they founded the village, but their lessers feared them so they tried to contain their greatness! They are better then mere police officers. The Uchiha are born to rule, not be simple civil servants!

 

 

Sounds to me you're just complaining by the way things turned out to be , mate. Yeah we didn't know the whole truth about the massacre at the beginning, it was just assumed that Itachi did it for power but at the same way there could be some secrets about the incident...it's like a mystery novel that says in the beginning that one guy was the killer just to turn it completley around by the end and reveal that another person did it. 

 

Granted, the whole Uchiha thing became too complex and Kishijust failed to deliver in general, the few information he gave us, allow us to pinpoint though that the massacre was originated thanks to both the Uchiha and Konoha 

 

 

 

Which is why this is a broken story. It started as a story about the dignity of all people no matter who they are, and ended up being about the importance of the station you were born into. The theme was flipped on it's head half way threw the story, which is why this "Uchiha are just victims", feels like complete kitten to so many of us. It makes no sense in this world as it has been set up. The story worked much better when the Uchiha were destroyed from within because of their clans legends. When Kishimoto attempted to put the blame on "the system" he broke the moral of his story. Especially when in the end "the system" isn't changed at all, Naruto keeps things the way they always were he simply leads it now. Why did Sasuke stop fighting? Was it because Naruto showed him that the system works? Nope, it was because Naruto punched him really hard, and Sasuke loves him to much

 

 

I agree, the system never changing is a big sign of how much the story lost itself however I'm not discussing any of this.

 

What I'm saying is neither "the uchiha were the victims", neither "Tobirama /Konoha did nothing wrong", basically with the facts that were given to us I'm saying that both of them had a hand in the massacre happening

 

.

 

To complete untangle the problems with this story would take to long, but the Uchiha being "victims" is a huge part of it. They can't be "victims" because their actions are what lead to their downfall, actions they freely choose. They choose to take over the village simply because of their own arrogance, and belief in their superiority, that they are much better then what the village thinks of them. An idea that was originally rejected in this very same story earlier on, but later we are suppose to relate to the Uchiha's struggles. Why? Who knows. Kishimoto makes it perfectly clear the the legends and customs of the Hyuga clan are outdate, anti human, and disgusting. The Uchiha legends and customs though? They are somehow "honorable" and worthy of death, well the system around them (the belief in individuals coming together for the village) is what is disgusting. Well you can't have it both ways. Either individuality is what is important or your destiny is what is important you can't have both. In the end we get this strange "right of kings" style of message with Naruto and Sasuke being the eternal princes who decide the fate of the universe because it is their choice to make by a birthright that happened in their former lives.

 

 

You're ignoring that konoha had a hand on it too, the downfall didn't came only because of the Uchiha's arrogance and this is what I'm trying to say all along

 

However you make some good points specially with your last statements here, completely unrelated to the matter I'm discussing though

 

 

 

Free will vs destiny was one of the corner stones of this story. The fact that it was flipped on it's head in the end is the huge fault line in this tale, and in the end that starts largely as a way to excuse the actions of the Uchiha clan, and by extension of course to excuse the actions of Sasuke Uchiha

 

 

But the actions from the Uchiha clan were never excused, they were simply given a tangible reason within the story and then more and more layers of complexity were added to the story that showed us that Konoha had a hand in the way the whole genocide thing was handled 

 

 

 


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#67 Awes9

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 12:57 AM

Tobirama was a visionary and a hero, he just wanted to spare us from this uchiha garbage, most of the uchiha we have seen were murderers, self centered kitten and drama queen it's totally reasonable to be wary of them when the whole manga is proof that a great majority of them are deranged and mentally unstable. Unfortunately Danzo failed to carry on his legacy and we were left with Uchiha whining, uchiha crying, uchiha hating and a ruined manga.
Tobirama is just a misunderstood hero he's the only good that came out of this manga, total support for Tobirama.

#68 Nar123

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 01:09 AM

To put it more simply for people who don't want to read my rant. I'll say I can understand why people say that Konoha is the problem, after all Kishimoto set it up so people would say that. The problem is that, that very notion doesn't work with the story he told before hand. It simply breaks what has been set up and completely ruins the story. In other words it doesn't make sense.

 

It's one thing to show that Konoha has made mistakes, in fact I support most stories that show the problems and evil of government in general. Which could have been told with the "free will vs destiny" story that was set up rather easily. But Kishimoto broke his free will theme, and his complete reversal on it is one of the main problems with the tale. Which is why the excuse as it is written just seems so hollow to so many of us. Peoples free will and actions are shown to be the driving force of the entire Narutoverse in part 1. In party 2 we are then suppose to by into this notion that the Uchiha are victims of a corrupt system at which their only choice was to rebel, because their family is destined for better things then where they currently are. It just makes no sense with the themes of part one. Either men and women are in control of their own lives, or people simply must follow their destiny as it is whether they want to or not. In the end Kishimoto choose to show us that people are destined to be who they are, especially after adding the "Naruto and Sasuke are soul brothers" angle.

 

Of course it doesn't help that this happened seemingly in order to excuse the actions of two of Kishimoto's more popular characters. Itachi and Sasuke Uchiha.

 

Complaining that it breaks the set up is the same thing as complaining that a mystery novel that hinted a killer at the beginning just to change it in the ending also breaks the set up 

 

Konoha receiving part of hte blame doesn't ruin the story, doesn't destroyes the set up, what ruined the story was Kishimoto godawfulo writing, not only he did not gave us the full dcope of hte situation ( that's why these discussions existed in the first place) but he couldn't properly use the complex themes he chose to add into his story, so no the fault doesn't come from those themes but by the way Kishimoto handled them

 

Also, in defense of Itachi's character, he is adored by the fans but some of his actions can't be excused like for example torturing his younger brother so he could kill Itachi in the future and be regarded as a hero in Konoha, he totally didn't saw how much his plan would completely backfire and make Sasuke into an overall hateful revenge driven person and that shows us that the charaqcter is flawed that he isn't perfect, however  Kishi ruined him by making Itachi come back as Gary Stu during the war

 

 

 

 

@Tiller

And the "Curse of Hatred" was Kishi's ultimate attempt at absolving Sasuke and the Uchiha Clan of any responsibility their own choice of actions had in their downfall, trying to make it look like it was completely out of their hands because they were essentially predestined to "go down a dark path" all because "they love more than anyone"...or some backwards logic like that...

It's just further showing that, had Kishi kept things simple and straightforward like Toriyama does with Dragon Ball stuff, perhaps the story, even without Yahagi and such, could have turned out a lot better, but instead, Kishi tried to make it all deep, meaningful, gray area'ed, and so on, but clearly did not know how without completely contradicting other/previous words/actions/events and/or making people look like hypocrites.

 

I agree, if Kishi kept the story straightfoward and didn't added complex themes then he would've had a more coherent storyline, however this isn't the case.And the whole thing about the curse of hatred, I kinda agree with you that it was a stupid justification and excuse to try to dumb down what hatred was in the series but at the same time it doesn't really matter when talking about what caused the massacre and etc

 

 

 

 

Yeah, exactly, buddy. It's the one thing I hated; why couldn't the Curse of Hatred be something universal to ALL humans who possess chakra, especially after Kaguya brought it into the world by eating the fruit of the Divine Tree and then Hagoromo and Hamura showing it to the world...?? It would have been so much better if it'd just stemmed from the feelings of hatred existing so deeply that it drives any human to do twisted and evil things, so that that way, it doesn't absolve responsibility, and that all are equal with it, since that's how hatred is; it can be a curse to all who suffer it, no matter how small it may seem at first.

 

I agree, it would make more sense but I doubt Kishi would be able to handle such a level of complexity 

 

 

The curse just further drives home the point that the theme of this story was flipped. Largely to excuse the actions of Sasuke, Itachi, and the other Uchiha.

 

This story should have never had such an excuse. When Sasuke became a villian he should have stayed that way. The story was just so much better when the world was set up so that it was created by the collective choices of the people in it. Instead of this "destiny" kick that it became. Half the reason Naruto was intersting in part 1 was because he was a kid who was the victim of injustices, but instead of wanting to make the world feel like he did, he instead wanted to make the world a better place for everyone through his own action. This was in contrast with Sasuke who was willing to let the world burn so long as his personal revenge was completed.

 

Hell one of the first reasons I couldn't stand SS was because Sakura didn't understand Sasuke, and because of Sasuke's character he had no reason to give a damn about her beyond what it could do for his revenge. Which is why he had no problem trying to kill herm multiple times... but no no no Sasuke's cool, he wasn't an asshat. Oh no! He didn't have a choice in the matter! People don't make their own way in the world, oh no! No you see we all have a destiny that we must follow whether we want to or not... just like Neji said all those years ago... which is why he must die... he gave up on the one true faith. Plus as a character he exist ultimately so Hinata can get the kitten from Naruto. I can't believe that it's canon, but it is. That was the ultiamte purpose of his story now according to Kishimoto.

 

I really need to stop thinking about this crap. I think I'm losing IQ points by the week.

 

I kind of agree, as Bryon said, if the curse of hatred existed it should be related too all of the humans, not only the Uchiha since all of these people in the Naruto world could certainly love and hate too.

 

But...Sasuke staying a villain? C'mon, no way that was going to happen and you know it, it's the same thing as saying Gaara should've stayed a villain, Sasuke redemption would happen regardless of the ending


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#69 Nar123

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 01:10 AM

Tobirama was a visionary and a hero, he just wanted to spare us from this uchiha garbage, most of the uchiha we have seen were murderers, self centered kitten and drama queen it's totally reasonable to be wary of them when the whole manga is proof that a great majority of them are deranged and mentally unstable. Unfortunately Danzo failed to carry on his legacy and we were left with Uchiha whining, uchiha crying, uchiha hating and a ruined manga.
Tobirama is just a misunderstood hero he's the only good that came out of this manga, total support for Tobirama.

 

:lmao:

 

You're a total Uchiha hater and isn't afraid to say it, that's fine you're free to have your point of views as long as you don't try to impose them to another person as a fact that is coming directly from the manga


Edited by Nar123, 02 August 2015 - 01:10 AM.

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#70 rocci

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 03:31 AM

I don't think kishi even think that deep.
He tried to potray the grey world of real life and he failed since he doesn't have writing skill to do that.

#71 Nar123

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 04:10 AM

I don't think kishi even think that deep.
He tried to potray the grey world of real life and he failed since he doesn't have writing skill to do that.

 

Basically


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#72 BlackBird19

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 09:03 AM

@Nar123: Thanks for your apology, I appreciate and accept it. Also I wanted to try to better state why I disagree with you on this topic since I haven't explained it properly. I take Orochimaru's and Obito's words as hearsay, simply due to the fact that there is no true evidence that they are telling the truth. Tobirama then defends himself and his actions there by creating a my word against yours scenario. So in that we have no absolutes.

 

We also have no definitive view of how the village was during both of Hashirama and Tobirama's reigns. We merely get word of mouth, or again hearsay. We have no clear evidence of how the clans were behaving at this time. We merely know that they chose to stay. Therefore any ideas as to whether a clan was content or disgruntled during this time are simply presumptions due to lack of hard evidence. Kishi's classic all tell, no show.

 

The only absolutes I see in the manga are that the Senju and Uchiha long hated each other; taking into account the later exception of Hashirama. Orochimaru is a villain willing to destroy Konoha of his own volition and then later by Sasuke's order if he so wished it. Obito is a villain manipulated at the hands of Madara and seemed to be willing to do anything to escape reality. Madara was a twisted soul with a twisted logic who had sympathizers. And that the Uchiha clan planned a coup de tat that directly led to their massacre. 

 

Since those are the only absolutes I see in this manga regarding this topic, I can not place blame on Tobirama's character since there is no hard evidence that states we should. To place absolute blame you need to have reasons that are absolute.The only hard evidence in this manga states the Uchiha planned a take over of Konoha and that planned decision led to their downfall. Therefore I can only blame them. I hope that better explained my point of view.


Edited by BlackBird19, 02 August 2015 - 09:15 AM.


#73 Nar123

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Posted 02 August 2015 - 04:44 PM

@Nar123: Thanks for your apology, I appreciate and accept it. Also I wanted to try to better state why I disagree with you on this topic since I haven't explained it properly. I take Orochimaru's and Obito's words as hearsay, simply due to the fact that there is no true evidence that they are telling the truth. Tobirama then defends himself and his actions there by creating a my word against yours scenario. So in that we have no absolutes.

 

We also have no definitive view of how the village was during both of Hashirama and Tobirama's reigns. We merely get word of mouth, or again hearsay. We have no clear evidence of how the clans were behaving at this time. We merely know that they chose to stay. Therefore any ideas as to whether a clan was content or disgruntled during this time are simply presumptions due to lack of hard evidence. Kishi's classic all tell, no show.

 

The only absolutes I see in the manga are that the Senju and Uchiha long hated each other; taking into account the later exception of Hashirama. Orochimaru is a villain willing to destroy Konoha of his own volition and then later by Sasuke's order if he so wished it. Obito is a villain manipulated at the hands of Madara and seemed to be willing to do anything to escape reality. Madara was a twisted soul with a twisted logic who had sympathizers. And that the Uchiha clan planned a coup de tat that directly led to their massacre. 

 

Since those are the only absolutes I see in this manga regarding this topic, I can not place blame on Tobirama's character since there is no hard evidence that states we should. To place absolute blame you need to have reasons that are absolute.The only hard evidence in this manga states the Uchiha planned a take over of Konoha and that planned decision led to their downfall. Therefore I can only blame them. I hope that better explained my point of view.

 

Okay...I guess I got it, kinda..anyway this discussion got quite tiring

 

I think it would be better if we just ended it here


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