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#21 RulesofNature

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Posted 24 July 2019 - 02:35 AM

Okay, the whole situation with IBO really reminds me of Hinata. You get these guys who want to defend Tekkadan, so they start talking about stuff that isn't in the show. That Tekkadan really believed in independence and would have handed Mars over to Kudelia. I really think it says something when fans have to make stuff up to defend characters and their actions, especially when the show itself contradicts them.


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#22 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 25 July 2019 - 09:23 AM

Okay, the whole situation with IBO really reminds me of Hinata. You get these guys who want to defend Tekkadan, so they start talking about stuff that isn't in the show. That Tekkadan really believed in independence and would have handed Mars over to Kudelia. I really think it says something when fans have to make stuff up to defend characters and their actions, especially when the show itself contradicts them.

Some example of their defenses?

 

Tekkaidan at the end of the day were a bunch of dumb kids that got in over their heads, and paid for it. Believed in independence? No, they were going all out because she was their first client and they wanted to show how good they were as a company. They didn't care about independence, and in season two the "king of mars" was more Orga trying to fulfill his/the companies ambition -a home- as fast as possible. He was a later told and agreed that it was a stupid move but it was too late to back out of.

 

They had to rely on Kudelia in the end for protection because they had lost every-other connection they formed. They might have handed it over to her but who knows?


Edited by Bail o' Lies, 25 July 2019 - 09:24 AM.


#23 RulesofNature

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Posted 26 July 2019 - 11:53 PM

Some example of their defenses?

 

Okay, let's see. In addition to the independence thing, people try to claim that Tekkadan were against corruption and exploitation. This, of course, ignores just how corrupt their own allies were in addition to how, realistically, Tekkadan and Naze both exploited their families via real world views on the subject. Now, if you go about explaining this the defense I've encountered is "they would have been exploited worse by other people, therefore the family is a good thing," justifying the exploitation which makes me a little sick inside. Occasionally, you'll have guys who claim Tekkadan never recruited children, and that everyone was above the age of majority. This ignores the Brewer's kids or the fact the show all but says Hush is younger than Mika (seriously, Mika is said to be around the average height for a Gundam lead. People in the Post Disaster setting are just very tall.)

 

You'll get the guys who buy into what McGillis was preaching, ignoring he revealed it was all a hoax towards the end of the show. They'll ignore that the Gjallarhorn attack on Kudelia in episode one wasn't a legit action by the organization, instead performed under a rogue officer who tried to cover it up, in order to make Gjallarhorn look like it's cracking down on all activists (instead of the ones, it appears, are ready to turn violent). Then they'll talk about how Rustal's reforms allowed him to take over the world, never mind that an elected position would mean checks and balances, and that he was out for power since the beginning. They also want to ignore how the databooks revealed Tekkadan used illegal weapons or that Mikazuki was canonically an unskilled pilot, all while condemning the enemy for illegal tactics.

 

It's legitimately interesting how they hold the antagonists to higher moral standards than Tekkadan. It's all excuses though, anything to make Tekkadan look good. They'll complain about plot armor for the antagonists when it helped both sides. They'll complain about corruption, blissfully unaware that Kudelia and Makanai were corrupt. Anything they can to romanticize Tekkadan.

 

Actually think I upset someone the other day when I pointed out that Tekkadan's story has a lot of parallels to revisionist history of Imperial Japan. Like, they had a hard time with their love of the show with that idea in their head.


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#24 Bail o' Lies

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Posted 27 July 2019 - 01:38 PM

People tend to not look closely at the morality of people they consider good, but look harshly at those they consider evil. They also wish for people they consider good to follow what they believe is good. As such Tekkaden are good people that must be fighting to free the slaves/save the universe/end poverty and so on. While their enemies must desire the opposite.

 

Was Fareed preaching anything? He just came off as a mysterious schemer -that wanted some kind of reform- who really liked the power of the Gundams until his stupid plan was revealed.

 

Was Kudeila corrupt I just thought she was an idealist that learn that she had to become more pragmatic in order to survive.

 

Imperial Japan? 



#25 HalfDemonInuyasha

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Posted 27 July 2019 - 04:12 PM

People tend to not look closely at the morality of people they consider good, but look harshly at those they consider evil. They also wish for people they consider good to follow what they believe is good. As such Tekkaden are good people that must be fighting to free the slaves/save the universe/end poverty and so on. While their enemies must desire the opposite.

 

Was Fareed preaching anything? He just came off as a mysterious schemer -that wanted some kind of reform- who really liked the power of the Gundams until his stupid plan was revealed.

 

Was Kudeila corrupt I just thought she was an idealist that learn that she had to become more pragmatic in order to survive.

 

Imperial Japan? 

Doesn't help that people also tend to equate "protagonist" with "good" when it simply means the main character(s) that the story in question focuses on, and there have been plenty of anti-heroes (like Venom, Punisher, etc.) or even villains (like Harley Quinn) who are the protagonists of their own stories while the normally "good guys" are sometimes the antagonists who get in their way.


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#26 RulesofNature

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Posted 27 July 2019 - 10:28 PM

Was Kudeila corrupt I just thought she was an idealist that learn that she had to become more pragmatic in order to survive.
 
The online bios revealed that Makanai had to resign from office due to a corruption scandal. Him offering to hand over the half-metal rights to Mars in exchange for getting him reelected can be considered a form of bribary on his part, since he wouldn't put those on the table under other circumstances. The deal, along with Makanai threatening Tekkadan into being his bodyguards, is corrupt as hell and Kudelia signed on. But we can use this, in addition to how she stops opposing Tekkadan's way of life after this, as signs that she wasn't the heroine she was made out to be. In addition, the writer and the director both agreed that she won't last long in office due to the skeletons in her closet, while the producer wanted her to die "for her crimes." So there's something off about what she accomplished, something damning outside of the show's narrative.
 
As for Imperial Japan, you know the guys over there who want to rewrite the history textbooks? Yeah, if you're familiar with their version of events and some Japanese history, a lot of rough parallels start popping up.

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#27 RulesofNature

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Posted 28 July 2019 - 11:12 PM

I think the big thing is that for a lot of readers/viewers today, stories aren't being made to make them think. Instead, they're being crafted to confirm the beliefs of the audience or (more likely) the beliefs of the creator. IBO appealed to people in the West because a shocking number of people online seem to believe that "all is fair in love and war" is a legit truth, that you do whatever you have to in order to win.


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#28 HalfDemonInuyasha

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Posted 29 July 2019 - 12:57 AM

I think the big thing is that for a lot of readers/viewers today, stories aren't being made to make them think. Instead, they're being crafted to confirm the beliefs of the audience or (more likely) the beliefs of the creator. IBO appealed to people in the West because a shocking number of people online seem to believe that "all is fair in love and war" is a legit truth, that you do whatever you have to in order to win.

Yeah, in spite of the fact that there's such a thing as "war crimes" / "crimes against humanity", and such.


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#29 RulesofNature

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Posted 29 July 2019 - 01:49 AM

Yeah, in spite of the fact that there's such a thing as "war crimes" / "crimes against humanity", and such.

 

My personal experience is that people don't understand what actually constitutes those things. For instance with Fire Emblem, people don't seem to realize that Hoshido commits war crimes in both Conquest and Birthright, so trying to discuss the story of those games hits a roadblock as people keep insisting Hoshido did nothing wrong and people saying otherwise are edgy white supremacists according to one loon.


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