Aevrum

 
I think the main issue, is that you don't see what makes the Chuunin Exams special.
 
It Does a lot to establish the sort of patterns you see later, intense reactions from Naruto. No, Naruto's cheering for Hinata in her fight with Neji wasn't about getting her killed, or that he didn't care about her well-being, it was creating encouragement, a pattern you see really from him to her. Neji, really enraged by this defiance, then tries to kill her. This later drives Naruto to his blood oath, a pretty intense reaction. This fight is also where Naruto really starts to notice her, where Rock Lee says the two are similar, and that Sakura says that she was always watching him.
 
And what makes the Proud Failure Speech special, on the heels of this, is that Naruto is vulnerable around her. He reveals his worries, he's even taken a detour to the exams, and how unsure he is. I think its also noteworthy after the Neji fight that he searches for Hinata's face in the crowd of spectators, wondering if she saw.
 
No, nothing about your words was a "stylistic device" originally, and for what you are trying to say, its the wrong phrase to use as well.
 
I'm adding detail to my writing, because you make a statement, and then you base source material after it. Rather than making a statement...and not adding anything to it.
 
I still see nothing that suggests why NaruIno can work. You haven't really said -why-.

This will be a shorter answer, because I have no passion left to argue with you and I apologize in advance for my aggressive tone:

Do you know what your problem is? You look at every scene of the two with pairing goggles and interpret it positively, something you don't do with other scenes.

The preliminaries and the first two rounds do NOTHING in favor of NH.
He doesn't care about her, he uses (unintentionally) his influence on her to confirm his thoughts about fate and doesn't even realize afterwards what he did to her, still fixated on 'fate' and showing it Neji. That 'avanging-theme' is the minimum he could have done in that situation with his character we have at hand at that point.

The proud failure speech is the only real 100% NH scene, and there are many positive things wrapping Hinata in the chuunin exams up:
He sees her now as a good friend, we are now more exactly shown what she thinks about Naruto and she manages to restore his spirit.
But you know what? It is still overshadowed by what happened in the preliminaries.

And, only because it is you, let's look at one important point with extremely unfair 'Anti-NH' goggles:
The speech is intentionally segmented in a way, that shows us that she knows nothing more about Naruto than his unwavering will. She doesn't believe in him and is only interested in her picture of him that gives her hope.

Now again a bit more serious:
The most important thing is: The proud failure speech would be a such a nice and beautiful NH scene, if it would have had any impact later on the NH relationship. It is later like it never happened and it is never taken up again and gets completely forgotten.


Oh PLEASE excuse my not perfect English, my third not-native language, I apologize that I am not running around with a dictionary to check every word.

Seriously, you doubt my personal social intelligence, passive-aggressively attack me and get upset because I showed you that it was wrong and call out my bad English?

Sorry, but you are too full of yourself. This is my last answer ever to you, it is not worth any of my time, have fun in life with that attitude.

 
This Analogy is one I've used, albeit differently. The Analogy works as is in a closed sort of fan, that doesn't interact or see the opinions of others. 
 
But more often than not, its like this: 
 
You order a Deluxe Cheeseburger from the menu, with fries and a soda and a slice of pie. The person you are with says that isn't on the menu. They order a salad, pointing to the same item you ordered. You say there isn't any salads here, both reading the menu differently, which, is in Italian. 
 
When your food arrives, it is as the second person said. And yet so often this successful Translation is ignored, disregarded, accused of conspiring with the waiter to get the salad,,because, psychologically, many can't say they were wrong. Maybe it's a passion issue, loyalty issue, even pride issue, but I know very well when I post, that very few, if anyone, will change their stance that has been so ingrained in it. It's cognitive dissonance, versus reconciliation. 
 
You'll have to elaborate what was promised, and I could be wrong, but I find the end wrapped things up neatly, and things ended really, as expected: Naruto became Hokage, is the beef of it, and the great Nations work together and cooperate. More or less the pairings made sense as well, as the smaller pieces at the end. This doesn't make me Pro-NH, as you said in an earlier post,  I don't ship NH, nor do I ship SS, I ship NS. I -defend- the end though, and the canon pairings with it, because most of the anger/hatred towards it is because of pairings. I read a post saying it wasn't about pairings, then they always circle back to pairings. They tend to start with comments on plot holes, minor characters not getting screen time (Orochimaru and Team Taka notable comments). I've seen mentions of unfinished "threads", and still, it always, as the discussion goes on, circles back to pairings, a bash at the author, another display of hatred. The difference between some of us, why I don't act this way, is simply I avoided cognitive dissonance, and I understood that I was wrong about NS being the final pairing. In no way does everyone act like this, thankfully. 
 
This is nothing against what people post, full respect for a opinion that avoids being hateful. I judged the quality of the above post, because their tangent had nothing to do with their argument. And when I see a really well done post, I'll point it out, even if its a point of view I disagree with. I go out of my way even to be thankful to respectful posts...and can get Snarky when someone employs too much hate. 

You didn't understand what was written, did you? Again writing the same things as an answer?

There is no 'right' or 'wrong' in that sense. This is a piece of literature, not a one-dimensional line of correlation.
Do you even realize what you are suggesting with what you wrote?
I don't even want to argue. Just think about what you wrote in your fourth paragraph.

The end wrapped up the most important things: Naruto became Hokage, Sasuke was 'back' and through the war the nation's came together. So far, so good.
But how is it with other things? You spoke about the pairings, for example.
As of chapter 699, and what happened shortly before, NH and SS had to happen - because that was the last chapter and there was no room anymore for a twist or something like that. There was simply no other way.

I don't know if you will believe me or not, but I didn't care about Naruto for nearly 8 years (And didn't ship anything before it, just thought NS was surely to happen) and just pretty recently watched the whole Anime. I knew the end pairings and cheered for NH in the back of my mind. And the end pairings made enough sense to be acceptable. But this doesn't mean that there aren't huge problems with the pairings, that instantly bugged me:

NH was quasi non-existent. I don't care how much anyone tries to overanalyze things, there was nothing going on with the two till (and even afterwards) the confession. It was introduced as a classical 'girl-that-loves-the-outcast-but-doesnt-voice-it' cliché and stayed like that till the very end. I waited and waited for NH situations but in the end there were only two: The confession and the war hand-holding.

But the most important thing with NH is: Till the very end, Naruto wasn't able to get Sakura out of his head. And he felt partly guilty to not recognize Hinata's love for him earlier (and I am not speaking about The Last) and didn't show any genuine reciprocation.
You know what this is? A VERY bad combination of things for romance.

I know how you will respond now with The Last, but we have discussed that enough.
Furthermore it is never really stated there that he doesn't understand love - it only is one of Sakura's thoughts to reassure Hinata. The only thing really stated is that Naruto is dumb enough to not be able to understand Hinata's love for him.


Another point is SS: Differently to NH, there was always the foundation and history there for it to happen, but it lacked something more important: love. There was simply none. Nowhere, never. Crying two times was enough for it to be later portrayed as true love. A joke.

But it isn't that important if it is a good pairing or not. Following the course of the story, I would be able to believe that it was possible that SS was aimed at (As much as I think that that 'planned' thing is ridiculous; I could nearly always say that if the pair has enough history, feelings or interaction).
But NH was never ever thought of as a pairing till much later in the story. That wouldn't make sense.
Not that this 'planned' thing is important, but it is helpful to understand the course of the story.

Let's face it: NS was a long long time the most probable pairing by far, till it was shot off very late, whether it was always planned or not.
But the problem is: You can't make the things unwritten afterwards. And that more exactly means: Letting NS open that long and giving it the most (and personally speaking the best) scenes by far, hindered and blocked NH/SS and made them look bad, underdeveloped and forced.

What you need to understand is this: The thought that the pairings are just another thing that went down the drain together with the writing.

The pairings are an epitome of what went bad with the ending. You are on a NS site, it is just natural to include the pairings into things when talking about the ending.
But the pairings don't even matter that much. They could be as bad as anyone can imagine it - they only would be bad end pairings (on the other hand, wouldn't even that be enough to not like the ending? It isn't like you are not allowed to think that the ending is bad, because you think the pairings make no sense).

But important is, that they seamlessly integrate into other things that were bad. You listed yourself many good points and I can't understand why you don't think that they are important.
There are many fans that hated the ending and moved on. There are enough NH/SS fans that hate the ending, there are enough NH fans that hate The Last.
The stance is not unique, nor baseless.

If you want, I could write a novel-length essay about what is wrong with the ending. And it is not only about the ending and what came afterwards itself, but also an accumulation of things throughout the whole story.
But everyone wrote so many points to you already, including me, so...

I just wanted to add a few things, because I'm bored:

Naruto didn't love Hinata instantly eight years ago. It was a gradual growing process. The Last served to explain that Naruto did not understand love. This is not a Retcon either, as it doesn't differentiate anything shown before, but serves to help make it clearer for those who didn't understand, the Sage of Six Paths also points out that if Naruto pointed his eye inward, he's understand a lot more about himself, which really highlights something also displayed consistently, Naruto does not always understand his own emotions. It took him a long time to understand Sasuke.

I think I have a Dejavu.

The 'process' started with the confession scene.
You can't count the proud failure speech; I won't elaborate this, you know why it can't.
And it wasn't gradual. It was a clear and distinct three-step-process: Pain-War-Last
There is nothing to suggest otherwise, it is never stated anywhere that it went differently, and one was easily able to observe this.

What does this random quote of the Sage have to do with romance?

Where did Naruto not understand his own emotions? Please show me an example, I am really curious.

He didn't understand Sasuke because he himself hadn't lost family. He didn't know how it feels to lose his family, his loved ones, his everyday life - that was why he couldn't grasp Sasuke's emotions fully.
It has nothing to do with a emotional inability.
I think you missed a whole important part of the series. You should really reread into his 'relationship' with Sasuke.

You KNOW the Last doesn't work with your interpretation of it. But somehow you are still repeating it. I thought we had discussed this here and you had nothing left to add.
They only use the 'doesn't understand,-never-realizes' motives they use in The Last because they don't have any development given by Kishi for the 2-year-gap and have to make it fast. I can guarantee you that it would have never been explained like in The Last, if there would have been more time/a different plattform to show it.
It isn't even because of NH (OK partly, because it was not really developed in the Manga), it's, like you said a few weeks ago, because of the problem to fit it all into one movie with adding a story to it.

Plus people are really overinterpretating The Last. It is not THAT complex, and Naruto's love for Hinata is not a fairytale 'I-grew-to-see-who-you-really-are-and-you-are-everything-in-my-life-soulmate-most-beautiful-thing-on-the-world-I-would-die-for-you' love. It is purely resolution-driven and happens only because you can't let Hinata and Naruto hanging.

"Him saying how he hates people who lie to themselves but then it results he lied to himself about loving his own teammate, which resulted in her almost getting killed!!!"
 
Naruto actually never says he loves Sakura in the manga. I don't want to say that Naruto didn't love her, but this is a good point to understand. Sakura serves to further elaborate on this love/crush, that it wasn't the same as the sort of love he had for Hinata, it was a rivalry, which also isn't a Retcon, as it keeps in pace with what is established in the manga.

She doesn't compare it with Naruto's love for Hinata. She compares it with her love for Sasuke and Hinata's love for him.
It wouldn't even make sense at all for her to compare it in that situation with his love for Hinata.

Where is it established that it is a rivalry? Please explain and show me that.
You know that it goes against the dynamics introduced in chapter 3. And literally every scene afterwards.

It doesn't matter that he never says that.
It wouldn't matter if he would hate her like hell.
I honestly don't understand with what you are even trying to argument here. The things you write have nothing to do with what was written above it, but still:
SHE THINKS that he loves her. I doesn't matter if this is true or not. If The Last is correct, Naruto is acting there like a egoistic drama queen. Not to say that the whole scene would make no sense. And your so called trial.

(A short semi-random insertion: Do you know what makes Sai's dialogue with Naruto beforehand so much more fraught with meaning? Because it is a mirror image to his "How can I be Hokage, if I even can't save a friend?" speech.)

"Naruto wasn't never the perfect human being, as some people think he is (like Hinata or you maybe I don't know) he said the guy who killed his parents was the coolest guy ever, he was totally okay with his "best friend" Sasuke when he almost killed the love of his life(oh wait the last retcon, nah never mind that got fixed)"
 
If you re-read the Proud Failure Speech, you'll have Hinata specifically say that Naruto is flawed, but what she likes about him is that he keeps standing up -despite- those flaws. I also acknowledge Naruto isn't perfect, and never have said he was. Really, Naruto's remark on Obito is in line with the character, he's forgiving, and he's referring to the Good in Obito. But this quote is taken out of context, literally sometimes, put in a panel with a bunch of dead people around. No, Naruto was not okay with Sasuke killing his friends, he was determined to stop him, being the only force standing in his way that could stop him at the end of the Manga.
 
The Last didn't make Naruto OOC, nor do "anything", really to him.

Oh great, again Hinata, sighh.
Don't get me wrong, I love that scene, but do you really have to use every little tiny opportunity to go into NH?
Please, it only looks bad. The speech has nothing to do with the problems faced with Sasuke, Nagato, Obito and the war. It has nothing to do with questions of morality.
Plus the motives addressed in the speech are all thrown over board in part 2(And I remember you calling that fact 'not bad writing'.)

You don't understand. What he does IS in line with how his character develops later.
But that's not a good thing. Not at all. Naruto loses every kind of rationality. What he is talking about is turning into bullsh*t that maybe would work on a ideal phantasy world with phantasy humans.
The worst thing is: It actually kinda works and there is nearly zero objection.

I personally can live with Sasuke.
But the Akatsuki/Madara thing is ridiculous.
Two examples:
-His fight with Pain. We get to know extensively Nagato's backstory, what he lived through, why he does what he does, and so on. Most of the leaf is DEAD. Naruto's loved ones are dead.
But during the talk between the two this doesn't matter, Naruto only cares about his own picture of a future perfect world, and his "I don't have an answer yet, but will do my best" somehow gives Nagato hope again. Wtf? What happened? We are talking about the same person that killed his teacher that saved him, without showing any reservations.
And afterwards magically Nagato has the power to revive everyone again. Voilà, Naruto doesn't have to live with any consequences anymore. Great.

-Obito. He makes Naruto eat his own words of "not letting anyone die" with killing several persons around him. He shows him the cruelties and the hopelessness. That he lied to Nagato back in the cave and has no real opinion of how to make things better.
But what's the result? Same procedure as with Nagato.
I can't believe how they threw such promising things out of the window so easily.
And the cycle of hatred is somehow broken because they fought against a single enemy who was dealt with. Okay, but what has this to do with the problems Nagato talked about? And doesn't it only confirm what Madara was talking about? What was Naruto's role in everything beside simply beating the enemy, what did he do except helping dead people find peace? Why should the living people change now (except the high militaries of the major villages)?

It's disappointing really, he changed nothing.

Good points Aevrum. There's not much else I want to add, but I appreciate your point of view and fair-headed discussion. Thanks for your input. 

Also appreciated. It was a refreshing discussion and even made me find words for things that always bugged me, but couldn't quite put a finger on till now. ;)
Plus it reminded me again, why NS is working/would work so much better in nearly every single aspect, than what we got.

Hinata's declaration of feelings, or her desire to declare them, versus the Pain Arc's confession are very different.
 
The Pain Arc's confession wasn't about pursuing a romantic relationship. Naruto asked why she was doing this, and Hinata tells him. It's not a "I want to be with you romantically".
 
Her Declaration in the last is specifically: I want to be with you. We can't really say what would have happened if she got to say it to him.

That's my fault here. I wrote that I will get back to this but forgot.
You see, as she was practicing her confession the second time, she thought that he has a girlfriend. She was AGAIN going to do it, only to get it out of her system, like with Pain. She wasn't going to ask him 'to be romantically with her' anymore. Just again, because somehow her love to Naruto is the most important thing in the life and has to be told him a second time.

As it is with The Last, the Naruto confession scene is taking placing in the middle of his 'learning trip' of love.
But Hinata didn't even get to tell him (as you already said), doesn't get to pursue him as you said and wanted. Naruto is doing everything, although he shouldn't really in his situation by your logic, with only seeing a dream.
They are twisting their positions and making him suddenly fall in love through memories to make him the active pursuing part. Not much he didn't already knew beside one extra scene, but somehow now he understands her love now (probably only thanks to Sakura calling him an idiot two times *rollseyes*).

It's funny you mention Haku, as Haku says: You said you wanted to become the best Ninja in your village and have everyone acknowledge you. Now, if someone who acknowledged you from the bottom of your heart appeared, wouldnt that someone become the most important person to you? Which could certainly be a foreshadow of Hinata, who does this the soonest after this speech is used.

Actually no, Sasuke would be that person. And the first female would be Sakura.

I digress, but Naruto can understand -other's- feelings, but not his own. He's a bit oblivious to romantic love, or so the Last suggests, and it works good enough. This point gets beat up a lot, but ultimately even if it doesn't satisfy your want for a reason, I think you have to appropriately weigh in they were forced to wait two years and work with the hand Kishimoto insisted. 

As I said several other times. He knows his own feelings. How can someone not understand the own feelings? Even if he didn't understand, he would show it, we would have to see it. Both is not the case, so he didn't love Hinata till The Last or at least till the war arc.

He is a bit oblivious to affection from outside coming to HIM. That's where his 'damage' is, if you want to call it that way. He underestimated a bit for example how important he was for Iruka, that's established pretty early in the series.
He has a bit of a tunnel vision, but it gets better later.
But, and that's important, if he get's the feelings slapped in his face like with Hinata with Pain and during the war, he has no problem understanding them. Again, example Iruka chapter 2, shielding him from the Shuriken.

The time seriously doesn't justify the problems the movie has. I mean, honestly every Naruto movie was bad in its characterization, but this is supposed to be Canon, the conclusion.
It simply mustn't have such flaws.
And the romance plus characterization is not the only part it fails. The most prominent example would probably be the shadow clones.
I don't want a perfect thing. I just want it to have no holes and unbelievable action and characterization. That couldn't have been THAT hard really.

Your 1 and 2 are interesting. 
 
1:
 
Naruto: I don't think Naruto is really that pushy, all things considered. There's comical instances of his attempts in their first introduction, but after that, he's really not pushy, just honestly wants her acknowledgement, or counter argument, to beat Sasuke. 
 
Sakura: When Sakura sees Sasuke after the Pain Arc, it's actually her meeting with Naruto that helps her set her up for a bit of more understanding with Sasuke. Here, in this moment, she sees Sasuke is so dark, and contemplates killing him to save him from himself. She loves all of him, mind, flaws and all, thus 693 later, and wishes she could ease his burden. It's the angst of it, not a fan, but its fascinating. I think there is indication it develops away from a crush to this love, but it could be more clear. 
 
Hinata in general isn't a selfish character, I think the selfish line is mis-construed by some to undersell the moment. The line she says in chapter 437 about being selfish has more for her to acting on her own will, about becoming like Naruto in a sense, not afraid to fail and not giving up, not afraid to die because she loves Naruto, but more important, she has become who she wanted to be. This is arguably the biggest NH moment. Hinata didn't need to be pushed by someone to do this. The Ointment, The Proud Failure Speech, even her moment in 615 aren't really encouraged by someone else, more her own ambition. 
 
2: Sasuke actually does show he cares, at least in Part one. He saves her in the Forest during the Chuunin Exams, beats himself for not being the one to save her during the Gaara Arc, etc, and he says Thank you to her during her confession. He does in part 2, a little bit, too but more importantly, in 699, I just think we need a bit between the skips in 699 for it to be fleshed out, but its there, if maybe not there enough, subjectively anyway.
 
Sakura: Sakura actually begins to acknowledge Naruto in part one, though I don't want to badger on "ignored in part one" line. It takes a while to flesh out, and even longer for her to start really believing in him, which I think is finalized in the 500s/600s. 
 
Your Naruto Growth seems fine.

1.
Naruto: As I said, that pushy thing clears up pretty fast. That 'beating' Sasuke thing from The Last is,... Well, I know you get it, but I will still repeat it again: There is no sense in pursuing Sakura to beat Sasuke in that moment (He should have rather pursued Ino). And he seeks her acknowledgment also before the teams.

Sakura: She already thought there, that Sasuke should possibly be killed. It's when she sees Sasuke, that she finally 'understands' that he is lost and should be killed immediately.

I don't think that it is angsty, it is rather suspenseful.

That's the thing. She thinks she loves him with all his flaws. But her actions are telling a different story. She is constantly tampering with things she knows nothing about and always thinks she knows better. There are rare thoughts of her, where we are shown that she actually knows better than what she shows us, but she doesn't care. Her love seems to be more important. She alone has to be the one to relieve him from his pain by killing him. She alone has to be the one stopping him from leaving Konoha. Her love has to stop him from fighting Naruto and establishing his plan. She and her love have to take the burden from him on his journey.
Really, nowhere, never ever ever, have I had to read such a catastrophic 'love story' and later even endure it to be turned into something 'positive' and 'true love'.
Nothing that happened during the course of 700 chapters shows us turning it into genuine love, quite contrary even.

As I said, Hinata IS selfless. There are two points where she breaks out of this tough, and unfortunately these are important NH scenes: The scene in The Last from above, and this one.
With the Pain arc confession, the selfishness lies in the fact that she knows that she is going to die, but still confesses. She knows that Naruto will be devestated, but that is not as important to her as satisfying her inner wish of confessing.

2.
Sasuke: As I said, he gets to care for her as a teammate. Nothing more, nothing less.
Nothing else is happening till the end, but the story 'forces' him to reciprocate her feelings. It solely builds up on the assumption that 'he was impressed by her and started to love her, but didn' t show'.
Again, one of the worst elements to wrap a story up, and neither subjectively nor objectively enough.

Sakura: That 'ignoring' thing was meant romantically and not generally. I personally think that she has fully acknowledged him as a person at the end of part 1/beginning of part 2. There isn't really anything changing in part 2 in that regard, they 'only' become closer.

Your next part is a bit incorrect.
 
Firstly, the Hinata Fainting/Running is flanderized by Studio Perriot. She faints just once in the Manga, when we are re-introduced to the teams, before we meet Sai. Some of the "Hinata problems" definitely come from them, ironic as we often (incorrectly and subjectively) blame them for glorifying her, she's as oft flanderized. As for comical scenes vanishing, there aren't really any serious NS Scenes after the Fake Confession, really. There's a few later, but they're Red Herrings, particularly the Girlfriend comment from Naruto. 

I never said there were many of these Hinata scenes. But it's really nearly everything we see from HER till late points of the story. That's her place in the story for her for a long long time: The classical girl that loves the underdog.

That's what I said. The scenes are becoming less and the nature of them is greatly different. They are either melancholic and sad, or too comical. And that has a reason. Because Sakura did what she did.

The rest is well, not everyone likes the sort of love story the Last is fair, and the last bit is hypothetical, because Naruto inherently wouldn't be Naruto without Kishimoto, and we can't really predict how anyone would make the ending, only guess. So fair, I suppose. 

It will sound funny, but I actually do not not like the love elements.
Only as a normal viewer and reader, and of course as a NS fan, there are things that are greatly upsetting. I never imagined it to end like this. With this not-fleshed-out movie, that made me sometimes doubt my own viewing comprehension.

I actually think that's what IS so frustrating.
We don't know exactly, but we actually HAVE a pretty big impression of how Kishimoto could and would have established NS.
He built the foundation, we know the motives he showed us with the pairing, their dynamic, their chemistry, their development. What makes us like it.

He said he decided finally on the final pairings somewhere around the Pain Arc. So we even have a pretty good idea of what and where to look at.

Hinata shows a solid example, really, making a gift from the heart to give along with a speech that declares her intentions, the desire to start a romantic relationship.

Do you think that this is pursuing?
Granted, she is too shy in front of Naruto to do much more, but even the movie is telling us with the whole fangirl and his mothers' scarf thing: A gift is simply not enough, it means nothing as it is.
And Hinata 'offers' him nothing more on an emotional level (beside flashbacks), during the whole movie.

Her 'speech' has similar problems.
Firstly, it is involuntarily triggered and secondly, brings Naruto no new message he wouldn't have got during the Pain arc.
I'll get back later to this.

Naruto does not do this, any examples are shown comically, so we can't take his attempts seriously. The closest is "How can I?", but it's not an attempt to pursue,nor an intent that he will pursue after Sasuke is saved. Also Sakura's request to go with Sasuke at 699 is another sort of example, which is why she is blushy and nervous, and people say "She's regressed!" when in actuality, she's making a serious romantic question here, which, seems to have that cultural response, whether I like that exact portrayal or not. 

Yes, there is this 'dating', 'pervert', .. . running-gag.
But it doesn't change the actions' intentions, nor the pretext, nor the fact that all the other scenes are emotionally powerful ones.
Think back to Hinata. Her love was completely a running gag of blushing and fainting, except of after the chuunin exams (which even had no 'romantic' pretext) and her throwing her life in danger two times. But that's it.
She also never pursued something - only at the end, where the pairings were set, she promised herself to stand beside him.

I think you don't combine everything with the fact how the story progressed and what happened, what even made the comical scenes get less and vanish.
It has a reason why he never gets to pursue and tell her: Everything that was happening with Akatsuki, Madara and so on. Literally everything that happened between him and Sakura, and Sakura and Sasuke.
He would have confessed more seriously, if there would have been a fitting situation after everything was cleared.
But we all know what happened afterwards.
Kishi chose his love to be unrequited - do you think he could have pursued her in this situation with what was happening and happened? Telling her after the fake confession scene and what happened during and after the war?
Naruto is not blind, nor is he an idiot. If it is important, he WILL shut his mouth.

I never talked about Sakura, but:
The thing is how she acts. The critic stems mostly from the fact, that the SS love is not believable and that she again doesn't care about any other person, not even Sasuke.

But I shouldn't talk. If I would have had to make the SS scene in this situation, I would have done it the exact same way. It's just the motive of SS, as stupid as it is for me personally.

Minor Aside, just for fun, I feel like Naruto should confess in hypothetical NS situation. It would dispel the notions that its just a joke/not a serious affection in that sort of employ from Naruto's side.

It's complicated. It would be dependent on the course you take.
Plus I still can't understand that 'not serious' thing. Did anyone honestly think that before the movie came out?
There are so many NS scenes that always showed us, that it is quite 'serious'.
Starting from chapter 3, over the gaara fight, hospital scene and promise, to the talk with Sai, the fake confession scene and the war. There is simply no other really logical interpretation.

It's believable that Naruto doesn't understand romantic love, from not having parents or a serious mentor in that aspect. He is damaged in a sense, though not so much as Sasuke. It's the best employed idea the Team had, particularly with the timetable they were forced to work with (2 years later). I also don't think Naruto really had time to process it immediately after, then chain of events kept flowing. In an American interpretation, Naruto would have answered earlier, I will say, and this may be an entirely cultural difference of story-telling, considering the audience and genre as well. Could they have done a better reasoning? Maybe, but honestly, with what Kishimoto gave them to work with from his conservatism, I'm hard pressed to find a working reason that you can execute better. 

Again, that he doesn't understand romantic love is not believable. You don't simply 'learn' love. Every person has a different view of love, a bit dependent on education, but that's all.
He bonded instantly with Sasuke, before making any friends, why can he show sympathy and understanding here so easily?
In the first mission he understands Haku's love like no one else - it is not romantic love, but still love. The whole story afterwards is partly about the importance of any kind of bonds and how well Naruto understands that.
In every situation confronted with romantic love between two other persons, he understands it. You can say it was a crush, but he loved Sakura.
We have not a single reason to doubt his understanding of romantic love.

Of course you can execute it better - just pick up from after the war and slowy build up on what's already there - without throwing it out of the window to start new and making him a romantic retard.

It's not hours, by the way, days certainly pass. I also don't think the speed of it is unnatural, if he is falling in unrealized love, it's a sort of catch up of lost time, you could say. 

It was an exaggeration from my part and I understand the motive they used, but again, I think it's ridiculous. How he seemingly 'falls' in love and the timing.

The Manga really tells the difference of SS/NS/NH, granted SS's love starts shallow, indisputably, along with NS's. NS has this growing bond mind, but it is ultimately, frustratingly to us, even, friendship, as tackled in the late 400s. Sakura's love for Sasuke, which is the important part here, as they aren't a couple at this time, is true in the sense she loves him and his flaws, and even when he hurts her with his actions, she still loves him. This frustarted some of us in 693 and 699, that enduring love, but that's what is being discussed here. Hinata's is similiar, a love for all of a being, flaws and all.

I know what you mean and I never claimed something different. But let's take a better look:
There are two important differences between NS/NH/SS:

1. How the loving person acts:
Sakura is extremely pushy and non-considerate. Although she has a small inkling, she doesn't want to understand Sasuke and doesn't really accept his flaws. She simply tolerates them, because she 'loves' him, and would even do the most irrational things to be with him.

Naruto at first is similarly pushy. But pretty fast develops into something where he takes consideration for her feelings. He understands her, admires her physical and emotional strength and becomes selfless.

Hinata is pretty shy and needs encouragement or a special occasion.
She admires him, understands his determination and flaws and is selfless (except for later parts). Naruto is her role model.


2. How the beloved person acts:
Sasuke doesn't care. He of course knows that she has a crush on him, but that's all. He gets to respect her as a Teammate, but everything that ever 'happens' between the two is solely in Sakura's imagination. Somehow he is reciprocating after the war.

Sakura has before the time skip only eyes for Sasuke and ignores Naruto. But she comes to respect Naruto and believe in him. After the time skip for a long time everything is pretty vague and they bond even more. Sadly, there is never a next step and at some point everything is going down the drain.

Naruto thinks at first that she is weird, but then she becomes a friend and comrade. Near the end he is confronted several times with her love. He realizes who always loved him.


There is a pattern here, which makes SS so completely unlikeable in the opinion of many. There are pretty alarming differences compared to NH and NS (, and especially to NS).

Another important difference is how Sakura started to love Sasuke. It is totally shallow for the most popular kid only after she came out of her shell thanks to Ino, which also triggers the giving up of that friendship. It really can't start worse. But the important thing here is, that we never got any indication that this type of shallow, obsessed love changed into something real, which it is used as later.

But before I digress any more I stop, I think I don't have to elaborate why NS works so much better than NH or SS.

It's this difference in love that doesn't create a "move on" during the talk, but an understanding that there was really no NS, as bewildering as that may be. It's not what we want, but it is a working execution. I won't touch Sakura's selfishness here, agree to disagree here, but Hinata's? She chose her sister over immediately having Naruto to try to stop Toneri ? I just don't see the selfishness here.

Again, I understand that they want to eradicate NS. The problem just is: It makes no sense at all regarding what has happened (The reasoning even doesn't work - why should he have 'loved' Sakura because of his rivalry with Sasuke? Utterly, completely stupid.) and even if you accept that, it makes look Naruto like an idiot and kitten. Just think back at the fake confession scene.
Therefore it is not really a working execution.

I was not necessarily referring to the movie, but: Why did she held that speech to Naruto in that situation?
She is selfish and wants to get things out of her system, not thinking about how it will trouble Naruto.
Of course she will go to save her sister, anything else would be really..., Wow.

But it's in this situation not really Hinata's fault, just stupid generic love movie plot forcing the characters together fast.

Finally, the negative things in the pairings, are more so a negative aspect of the family, about the sacrifices made due to each father's situation.Even with an NS end mind, there would be similiar in the author's hands. I don't think however, to any extent is Naruto or Sakura miserable with that difficulty, it's difficult we can say, but it's not depressing them. 

I don't said it's depressing them, but they clearly have troubles. Troubles that in this way wouldn't have been there with a NS ending.

You are right, they would have probably included similar things with a NS ending.
But the fact is that NS would have had much less attack surface to establish such things. It would generally be a less problematic relationship, they would have had to probably include an outside influence to trigger similar drama.

I'm defending NH/SS way more than I want to. Maybe Next I'll put out differences that could have been done to make NS work really well. I actually honestly think an American that handled Naruto would have gone with NS very likely, or possibly NH and never even promoted NS from the start. I don't know, I just -think- that's how our culture would have taken the story, and maybe that's part of the frustration? Not a 100% behind it, just a thought. 

I am not American and grew up with Central Asian culture. I would say it is pretty much the middle thing between Japanese and Western culture in terms of romance.

And I can tell you that probably no one with a similar cultural mindset would have taken the current route with the setup we had.
It would either be NS or NS or NS or , much less probably, a bittersweet route with a clearly crushed Naruto who later accepts Hinata and finds happiness slowly with her. In that case Sakura would probably suffer, if the author is sadistic^^

But I don't think it is a solely cultural thing. There are certain topics and motives that are universally likeable or unlikeable.

This is the NS Debate thread. So...yes?

Oh boy... I think you don't want to understand sometimes, what the other person is saying...

@Shashank
I don't think there was much credibility doubting - at least never from me. It was rather a discussion on a few scenes from the viewpoint of what 'canon'/"The Last" 'established' in the end, as much as I don't like it.

Ignoring the poor choice of word "retarded', Naruto did not give up on Sakura, he never pursued her.

How do you define pursuing? Saying "I love you" everytime you see the other person? Or asking on a date? Tell me, how should Naruto have pursued her in the end, if he would have?
Let's ask it in another way: How exactly for example did Hinata pursue Naruto?

More importantly: Do you need to actively pursue something, to give up on it?

You are using wrong causality all the time; I sincerely thought you were objective, but in the last posts, you twisted things just too many times.

Naruto didn't convince himself he wanted Hinata more, the Genjutsu made him understand both his own and Hinata's emotions. Finally, with understanding, he could move forward with love, I.E., he falls into the love he already had. If you watch the Last, you can understand that it is literally, a device that shows the past on things.
 
When Sakura talks to Naruto about Hinata, Naruto is heartbroken that Hinata went with Toneri. Heartbroken. So let's say the scene is changed and she convinces that Naruto should go with her instead. Now it works as per the quote! But Sakura doesn't have feelings for Naruto, nor would do something like that. She pushes him to get back up by assuring him that Hinata cares for him. That's what happens in the scene. If you haven't watched it, you should before commenting anything further on something you haven't viewed.
 
I already explained the move on part, but essentially it's talking about the difference between genuine love and shallow love, and how moving on from Sasuke to Naruto would be shallow, based on the circumstances.  I already highlighted these circumstances, feel free to read back and catch up on that. 

I think you still don't understand one thing and are bringing it unnecessarily up every. single. time.:

Everyone understands what they are TRYING to tell us in the movie.

But what is so problematic, is the fact that it is simply really bad, not believable and insulting.

I don't really want to answer to every single terrible point. But let's take a look at a few examples:

"He falls into the love he already has":
Not to mention that it is silly that he didn't understand Hinata's love during the Manga chapters, that whole sudden 'realizing' thing is such a cheap story device. He sees past scenes (that are mostly new and made up extra for this case, because there was not enough), but there is NOTHING that could shed positive romantic emotions from his perspective and he suddenly realizes that he loves her. It's so stupid really, love doesn't work that way.

"He is heartbroken":
Not to mention that he totally randomly confesses hours after he realized his 'true love that was always there' (a little interpretation from my side: with confused emotions and slightly 'forced' to do it so fast), he is acting like a love-sick puppy afterwards and loses the motivation to fight. Naruto.

I know that they wanted to add a little 'drama' into the 'love story', but it doesn't help to make everything believable.

The scene with Sakura:
The way how she is pushing him back up is just disgusting. She is purposely using the fake confession scene to 'wake him up'.

Then that whole 'shallowness' and 'eternal love' motive. Because it would also work the other way with Naruto's love for Sakura, they first have to reduce it to a 'not real' love, out of rivalry (which simply doesn't and can't work out with what we read and saw in the manga), for them to make it a 'shallow' love, so that it is justified for him to move on. (At this point we still don't understand what makes Hinata's or Sakura's love 'real' and 'special', we just have to accept it)

And then they begin with that whole 'not changing blablabla' talk.
It makes me want to puke. Not to mention that it is silly, the shallowness and selfishness Hinata and Sakura showcased during the whole series can never justify the usage of that motive. It makes no sense.

Honestly, the whole movie feels like Naruto being pushed from one 'love lesson' to the next with him being an idiot and the women somehow being absolute love experts.

It is just ridiculous.

Naruto is not miserable, there is this thing called plot that ultimately strengthens things by the end and people are better off for it. Same for SS.

He is miserable. As is Sakura. But it's not about romance in the first place, they 'love' their partners in the canon world. It's about how they are acting, what they are doing and what is happening. The life choices they made led them to situations they didn't imagine like that - it doesn't matter if someone thinks that it could be different with other partners.

We honestly don't know how it will unfold yet. But what you said will most probably be the case. But then think again: They are the canon pairings, they HAVE to be shown in at least a bit of positive light.
The thing is: Kishi KNOWS about the negative things in both pairings, the missing 'development' (as we like to call it) and the troubled chemistry and he is ACTIVELY using it, like in Gaiden or Boruto the movie.

Basically to be manipulative is to deceive someone to do something. In this case, Sakura is trying to manipulate Naruto with his feelings toward her to not go after Sasuke, by lying that she feels the same and doesn't care about Sasuke anymore. It's not Kishi manipulating the reader here, just Sakura to Naruto, and Naruto's reply is essentially, that love doesn't work like that, and she's being dishonest, and he also wants to save Sasuke for his own reasons.

Then we actually agree on everything. The scene with Sai as it is, IS not manipulative, but what the characters later do is. It sounded totally different in your last posts.

Your next part is partially right, and what I was saying: Sakura is understanding the promise is painful to Naruto, or so she thinks its the promise, anyway, as I've said remove the promise and the pain would be the same. But she wants to go after Sasuke to save him, she loves him, but she resorts to trying to kill him, because she believes the only way to save Sasuke is for him to die from what she saw.
 
The Poisoned Kunai was for Sasuke, actually, if I recall. It's unknown when it was prepared. I'll have to go reread and verify that though.

You are right, but not completely. The pain would not be the same. That's what you don't understand fully and Sakura didn't fully during the situation.

She thought that it would make it a little bit easier for him to give up, if there is no third party involved anymore. That it would at least remove one burden and regret from him, even if he doesn't come back. But she should have known that Naruto doesn't work that way. Even if he didn't care about Sasuke even a little bit, he would still have immense trouble to simply leave there and go or even to believe her. Just imagine the scene again with Naruto not caring about Sasuke and tell me how he would react.

The promise he gave her makes it actually easier (in a deterministic way) for him to chase after Sasuke, but Sakura shows us that she doesn't understand a bit how he feels in that situation.

She thinks she knows better than him, and that the only real solution to everything would be to kill Sasuke.
This is again actually a little bit independent from the motive before and makes us ask, if Sasuke is really still redeemable.
Yes, as I said, the poison was for Sasuke. She never fully believed herself, that Naruto will believe her.

Yes, that's unfortunately a SS situation like you elaborated.
[That said, I remember the flashback scenes we were shown as she tried to kill Sasuke - man, was that cringeworthy, she didn't even have real situations to think back at.^^
I still can't believe that Kishi chose such a romance route/motive in the end. It's so utterly ridiculous and idiotic.
Plus contrary to popular belief love is actually never really fully irrational and never permanent, if there isn't something to fuel it. But I digressed ... ]

3: That's what I'm saying: No, he wouldn't have gone home, based on what he illustrated, but he certainly had a choice.

You don't understand what I'm trying to say. The choice changed in such a way, that there is no real choice left in the first place. Sakura doesn't know about what he was told, it was not a confrontation on even grounds anymore.

Okay, no, objectively there is no "indirect" confession. It is not a true confession, the entire moment is meant to manipulate. Further, this being a true confession by Sakura, or indirect, just isn't supported by the events that follow up to and at the end at all. It doesn't work that way, and that would be a mis-reading.

How is the scene manipulative? What does it exactly manipulate? I honestly don't understand you here. It is misleading Sai to not 100% correct assumptions, because he doesn't understand the whole Team 7 dynamic, but that's all. What does it change from the fact that Naruto loves her? You can't tell me he isn't, you know he would NEVER answer like that else. He isn't thinking suddenly "Oh, Kishi wants to manipulate the readers, let's throw something ridiculous in". It's not working like that.

I'm not saying that she is honest, where did that came up from? I'm just lazy and don't want to add the 'fake' everytime.

In Sakura's mind, he is chasing after Sasuke, despite the pain it causes him, because of the promise, rather than his own desires. This is corrected when Naruto reveals he wants to go after Sasuke for himself as well.

That is only partly true. Sai is assuming this in a way, saying that it is causing him pain (adding that he doesn't truly understand his bond with Sasuke).

But Sakura knows a little bit better. Yes, she thinks that she is the main driving factor for him keeping going on and that this causes him unimaginable pain.
But she realizes after Sai and Shikamaru talking, that chasing after Sasuke brings him only pain - she thinks she has to relieve him from this pain with removing the most important burden she thinks is holding him back - the promise.

But her mission is more complex than that. Even after Naruto calls her out she wants to kill Sasuke now - BECAUSE she thinks that he only brings him pain. It does not have to do with any burden from her promise and she knew that from the beginning.

It was either coming back with him and spare him from anything Sasuke-related, or take the things in her own hands once and for all, no matter how he will react (Because she knows how he feels about Sasuke).

1: Not truly, you're basically hitting it the same way with different diction: Sakura is releasing Naruto of his promise and wants him to go back with her and abandon his course.

Exactly. But with different thoughts than you elaborated.

2: What do you mean she doesn't care anymore? She's frustrated that she can't release Naruto from this weight that has bothered her, and takes it into her own hands to stop Sasuke at this point, since stopping Naruto did not work.

She doesn't act out of frustration. That was always planned (like the poison for the Kunai) , because she didn't honestly believe that Naruto will come back with her.
After trying to kill Sasuke and utterly failing she doesn't care anymore. She knows that she fuc*ed up, but it is never even mentioned again. Sasuke is again causing him pain, and Naruto is talking about how they both will die, but the only real thing she can think about is the hope that everything will be okay again thanks to Naruto. Where is the resolve she showcased before? It makes everything she did look like a farce.

3: Naruto didn't -have- to do anything. He could have gone home with Sakura, it's just that it was the clear wrong choice.

Of course he COULD theoratically have gone home. But do you really think that after that he could still simply walk away?

The quote I'm referring to is about Is about love not fading away, "when a girl truly loves someone..." etc.
 
Naruto does call her out on her words being false and not genuine, I.E., not a confession, and that her love for Sasuke didn't just disappear.

Ah, OK, you meant that.
Yes, Kishi used that motive there.
But that's also only there because they are resolving things.

I, on a personal level, do not agree with that quote, but that of course doesn't change a thing

You're misunderstanding what I was originally saying: I was originally saying that it does not -imply- that Naruto is going to pursue her after  Sasuke is rescued. It's objective that Naruto at the very least in manga material has a crush on Sakura, that is not being argued, and is a stance I personally push into close or more so one-sided love. This scene sets up the Fake Confession because it turns it into a question: If you didn't have to go after Sasuke because of the promise, would you still do it?
 
Creative Analysis Insertation: In that situation, Sakura is a Contagonist, or in Hero Journey terms, a Temptress I.E., she is trying to get Naruto away from the path of saving Sasuke, then she will take on the task herself. This is disliked by some readers though, because she's doing it for her own reasons: Guilt, rather than something more noble. It's not uncommon in hero stories, and a refusal/resistance by the Hero typically comes next. A tragic Hero however, might succumb, and here, dark things can happen. 
 
Back to my point: The quote from the Last actually applies really well here, because if Sakura's words were true, and not fake, her love would be shallow for Sasuke, and we'd question her love on Naruto too, because now he's this cool hero after defeating Pain, and that makes her switch? Naruto calls her on this when she lists reasons why she should switch, and it's basically the author saying that love does not work that way, and indeed, love does not work that way. 

You are misunderstanding was Shashank was saying and I'm trying to elaborate.
We understand that it is not implying that he will pursue her.

But in the original post there you also wrote something different - you seriously doubted that the scene shows any kind of indirect love confession. And that is just completely wrong.

I totally disagree with this kind of 'setting up' interpretation. The reader knows since Sasuke defected and the scene at the gate, that he would still chase after Sasuke, no matter what. Their brotherly bond - as ridiculous as it sometimes is - is the most important thing throughout the series. There is no such a question as you wrote it in the first place. Why should he stop chasing after Sasuke only because there is no promise anymore?

1. The temptation is a different one - don't risk your life, Sasuke is not that important/lost, you can relax and be with the girl you always wanted.

2. The most important thing that makes Sakura look so bad is not because she is taking action out of guilt - it is HOW she acts and reacts afterwards. She knows how important Sasuke is for him and what he feels for her - but still is trying to abuse this love AND destroy his chance on saving his friend. Plus how she doesn't really care anymore afterwards.

3. The circumstances drastically changed right before the confession took place - Obito talked with Naruto about Sasuke and the Uchiha clan, what did not leave Naruto a choice in the first place - he HAD to not accept Sakura's 'proposal', no matter if it would have been genuine or not.
This again destroys that 'choice and temptation' scheme.


What quote are you referring to again? ^^

We would actually not question her love, because everyone knows, why she is suddenly confessing like that. She didn't become all lovey-dovey after he defeated Pain and came back as a hero, what changed in the meantime in terms of Naruto's status that would make her look like a hypocrite? She even knew before that, that he is the strongest, going to be Hokage, yada yada yada...
The circumstances would only be the dam-breaker, building up on scenes that we now refer to as 'red herrings'.
And Naruto actually doesn't call her out on that - he calls her out on the circumstances.

You're correct, the scenes did not happen yet, but this scene is a build up to the others, and that is what I am declaring is important to understand.

As you said, every scene is a build up to another (That's really always and everywhere the case), and the dialogue with Sai is a build up to all the little things that happened before it in terms of NS and SS. That's what you seemingly do not think important to understand.

You talked about how that scene would show
nothing between Naruto and Sakura, or that it even doesn't imply that Naruto loves her - but that's just utterly wrong in every aspect.

Shashank was talking about this fact, and here anything that happens afterwards IS NOT important for the interpretation.

This is one of the scenes/arcs that made Sakura less heroine-ish. I personally like it, but it made her character less likeable, something Kishimoto wasn't fond of. So the things you mention here some others felt as well, and it lead to Kishimoto trying harder with Sakura further down.

I don't really think that he tried better further down. Afterwards we didn't really saw more of her. It became even less. Plus the damage done after a couple of chapters and scenes later, where she did not bother to talk about it, think about it or even be regretful about it for more than one panel, was irreparable.

Personally, the moment where she says that Naruto gave her hope again that everything will be like it was, is killing me.
I can't describe how wrong this feels. She only thinks about Sasuke here, Sasuke there, totally blocking out what happened before or what she did to Naruto. She ignores how he talked about that they will kill each other with their next fight, clinging on the hope that there is hope for Sasuke.
It destroys everything the fake confession scene was for, to protect Naruto from destroying himself, and the last bit of good intentions.

I think Kishi gave completely up on her somewhere along the way afterwards. There was always this thought lingering that she will have an important role somewhere somehow, but that was never the case.

In a sense, the promise and Naruto's own volition to save Sasuke are intertwined: They're both desires to see their team-mate returned, and seek out to do the same thing. Remove the promise and it doesn't change. The promise adds to the determination and weight of the matter.

As I said: They are not as dependent on each other AS IT SEEMS.
"Remove the promise and it doesn't change"
But also remove the fact that he chases Sasuke also for himself - it would not enhance the promise in any way, it would even make it look bad.

The two things enhance each other, but can easily stand on their own.

Hahaha, these passive-aggressive posts on the last pages. Guys, chill down, everyone is able to write what he/she thinks.^^ There are also a few points where Analyzer is right.

 
But note that Naruto does not say he wants her. He says How can I tell her how I feel if I can't even keep my promises? IT does not mean that when he does he will tell her, which is the Red Herring's element here, or what exactly he is feeling, as Sai/Yamato are fililng in/saying what it is, but its not coming from the two of them directly. Note that Sai isn't a reliable person here, having trouble understanding emotion himself, so his words here should not be taken as 100% accurate either.
 
So while there was no attempt, the above is not a promise that he will do it after saving Sasuke. That cannot, and should not be inferred so easily from this.

You are right, it's of course no promise. But that's even the point of the scene.
The most important thing to him is to not be a hypocrite or liar to her - to keep his own integrity.
There are many things holding him back from a confession.

Do you remember during his first fight with Sasuke, how he thought about how he foolishly soothed her worries about Sasuke and his promises about him that then seemed to turn out wrong?

The cover of chapter 236, 'The promise I could not keep', summarizes it pretty well: "I stayed away from sorrow and pain ... I wanted to protect that smiling face."

As cliché as it is - him confessing or them getting together is secondary to him to seeing her smile, making her happy and/or being 'able to look into the mirror'.

And with that, I don't know where a red herring could be in this scene.
Beside that, it is pretty clear what he is feeling. I honestly have never seen any not-pairing-obsessed person, who GENUINELY thought that Naruto didn't love Sakura. Again, why should he have to outright tell "I love her", or something like that, to Sai in that situation? It would be so out of character and what he says shows us more than clearly what he feels, that he loves her, if you think back at all the chapters before.

The 'red herrings' (I honestly hate that word. They would be just super normal development and foreshadowing if NS have had happened) were in other places. Like the scene with Yamato, where we are hinted that Sakura might love Naruto back. Or the parallels that make it seem like it's the natural course of things and going to happen.

I didn't define true love when I used the word, my mistake. Basically something more than infatuation is what I should have used, and omitted "true" altogether. It's surprisingly not uncommon to see something more clearer when you are outside of a situation, and not in, which is what I mean by understanding feelings in other situation's, but not your own.
 
And by "idiot", it's more to Naruto's brashness, charge without thinking. Anyway, not going to defend this one too much more, as I honestly just believe while it is what they are working with, it sadly only works so much.
 
Lastly by romance, I mean incorporating elements, not turning it into a romantic story. Many stories of varied genres incorporate romance without it taking over the plot, the romance acting as a sort of chronic tension underneath the acute tension of the plot.
 
The image is actually a really nice one of Naruto, though that looks more like 17 year old Naruto.

I know what you mean and understand the things you talk about - the things they are trying to go with -, but that's the point I am talking about the whole time and you said now:

It doesn't simply work that well.
The course they decided to take with The Last is just bad. It doesn't matter how you look at it - NH and all the rest could have been resolved way better.

Plus how they decided to continue with the Boruto movie just makes it look even worse.
Honestly, whose idea was it to include such a generic boring family-kid drama into it after the things we got during the main story? It feels like a show now only for pre-adolescent kids in puberty.
I miss the darker atmosphere pre-timeskip, where I could 'feel' the evilness from certain characters - but enough ranting, that's a whole different story.

I agree with your thoughts on the 'cronic' romance - it was there for a long time, but didn't live and grew and made it to the later parts.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the pacing. :) But yeah, if he had wanted to do Naruto longer, doing a few other things besiddes the war arc would have been nice.
 
Two years had passed, I believe Naruto -has- moved on, personally. There is no romantic NS in the movie to show otherwise. Sakura's explanation is oddly more to tell Naruto that his feelings for Hinata and vice-versa are real, that she did not betray him, and had left for altruistic reasons.
 
I once read a reading of Naruto that suggested he was in touch with other's feelings, but not himself, and that he could not understand true love, because he did not have parents to see to relate to it. I think that's the closest reading to get to understand why Naruto seems such an idiot in it. In the Shikamaru/Temari reference, they weren't really on a date anyway, but we as readers know that they admire eachother's strengths, so it can come off humorous/telling.
 
I wouldn't really put the marry a girl like her anywhere in anyone's shipping steps. If anything Naruto just showed that he didn't really know what he was looking for (Nor was it the itme).
 
I don't get a feeling at all that NH is just second place/rebound. That's primarily because there was no romance at all. And NH to be honest was always a rival pairing in what could have happened and did happened, and they admittedly had their relationship development.
 
But with the above I agree a lot, all of the pairings, actual, or potential, could have benefited with a bit more romance used. As much as I am defending Naruto's reasons of being idiotic as being the reason why he didn't see it, it's not the best reason as you are pointing out, but it is the "In character" reason in place of the real reason: Kishimoto didn't want to deal with this in the manga.

I tried to tell with that 'marrying-a-girl' talk with his father, that he did already there 'move on' (or at least accept the realities) from Sakura.

Many dialogues, actions and thoughts during the war arc are there to slowly 'manifest' NH and 'defuse' NS [with showing it in a more comradely light and pouring more humor into it (joking with his father)], to path the way.
The talk was just the last step and I think things were pretty obvious, when he says that not everything can go like his mother wishes.
That the things are often ambiguous doesn't change the simple facts of what literally happened before and what it implies.

If you honestly believe that the "he's an idiot" thing in this context is "in character", we have to simply agree to disagree.^^
We were shown throughout the whole series with many examples (The Shika/Tema thing is classic Naruto humor - but that doesn't make it any less valid, and they obviously don't have to be on a real date to tease them) that he actually understood romantic love pretty pretty well - only romantic affection shown TO HIM by outstanders was a bit outside of his vision, mostly because of his past and not thinking that it is even possible, and was even a bit of a running gag in non-canon pieces.
Additionally with Hinata he at first just thought that she is weird and simply acts like that - but then again, he recognized her weird behavior, he was not oblivious to it.

After everything that happened after the Pain arc and Neiji literally telling it him in his face, and how he reacts afterwards, how can someone say he didn't understand?
Go on and watch the whole SS and NS thing in the whole Manga, with keeping in mind that he does 'not understand a thing about romantic love' - it will make no sense at all.

If he is in touch with others' feelings, does that not also mean that he understands them? Where are you drawing the boundaries there? Shouldn't he have been also in touch with Hinata's feelings?
And for God's sake - what is 'true' love?
So he can only detect 'lesser' feelings?

Moreover it makes him look like a non-human without own feelings. What does 'not himself' mean? Only because you had no parents, you are not a person who has enormous problems to understand love, that's just stupid.

He actually dealt with romance at the end - at least as much as he minimally had to.
If he didn't, we would have no basis at all to discuss on and the movie wouldn't have had anything to resolve in the first place.
I repeat myself, but again, there was romance before the movie. And I would say A LOT more than in the movie. It even starts with the very first 'real' story chapter and goes through till the end.
If you have three confession-like scenes in the series and so many panels solely dedicated to romance, you can't say that "there was no romance at all".

You can say that there was not enough romance (I fully agree that there was not enough romance near the end) - but the story's main focus is simply not romance.

From the Villain/Fight aspect Gaiden is just extremely boring. But that's mainly because this whole Kaguya thing is so extremely bad, it already destroyed in the original series much of what I liked about Naruto's plot and it's message.
It gave easy answers to complicated questions - which is utterly disappointing.

Reading Gaiden I just thought, "Really, again this? Can't you think about something original?"
The being-rusty thing only works one(!) time, and only for Naruto. Anything further or more it just bad writing (hello, Boruto movie!).

The who-is-the-mother thing is cool for the reader; most importantly it ties well on the extremely problematic SS relationship.
Plus in the end it made the involved characters just miserable with no fully 'positive' end, which especially Sakura deserved (I like her, but what she selfishly did to Sasuke and Naruto at the later parts of the Manga made her into an 'emotional antagonist'.)

It furthermore tried to convey an important message with 'your genetics are not important blabla', that's the most important thing, but the aprubt end just made me feel like that there are 2 or 3 chapters missing.

But the worst thing in Gaiden was Orochimaru. I mean, what the hell is going on with everyone? Did they all lose their memory? Ugh...

Now compare Gaiden with for example "The Path illuminated by the full moon" (or something like that^^).
This is truly good writing. An Orochimaru like we know and love him. A unique plot with a great message, that makes us think. About an individuals fate (This message was sadly destroyed in Shippudden, I could puke). And truly feel with Mitsuki. A 'dark' ending. A little bit mindfu*k. No extraterrestrial, godly bullsh*t. Simply everything I need and want.