277 replies to this topic

[shadow_Uzumaki]

And then, it'll turn out that there is a secret coffin hidden within the Hokage Mountain. The contained? Batman. To save the world again when it needs him most. Of course, this means Mr. Popo can't be in this universe, or else Batman will lose.


No, I don't do drugs. Just feel like discussing something else less "serious business."

[Miss Soupy]

From Madara's speech, it seemed like he...I don't know, expected to be revived by Nagato at some point. If he was alive to know Nagato, then he still could have been the head of Akatsuki like Itachi said. I can't see Itachi really being wrong about that. At the same time, it seems like Madara, maybe, wanted to be killed in order to be revived later? He knew about the war, didn't seem that surprised to be alive, and mentioned Nagato. Was he meant to show up unexpectedly to fight in the war all along? That could mean Madara and Tobi are, in some way, the same person. I'm not sure, but at least Madara seemed to expect this revival which hints a prior plan of some sort.

What doesn't make sense to me is Madara's acceptance of being revived, yet his anger at being revived in the way he was. Spouting that it interfered with the balance of life and death, blah blah. Oh yeah, yet you were expecting to come back? XD

[FoolishYoungling]

I can not even express the chaos that would cause

HAHA! Its possble, but with her trying to help, it might be accidently shifted into NH moments...

[Super Boom]

From Madara's speech, it seemed like he...I don't know, expected to be revived by Nagato at some point. If he was alive to know Nagato, then he still could have been the head of Akatsuki like Itachi said. I can't see Itachi really being wrong about that. At the same time, it seems like Madara, maybe, wanted to be killed in order to be revived later? He knew about the war, didn't seem that surprised to be alive, and mentioned Nagato. Was he meant to show up unexpectedly to fight in the war all along? That could mean Madara and Tobi are, in some way, the same person. I'm not sure, but at least Madara seemed to expect this revival which hints a prior plan of some sort.

What doesn't make sense to me is Madara's acceptance of being revived, yet his anger at being revived in the way he was. Spouting that it interfered with the balance of life and death, blah blah. Oh yeah, yet you were expecting to come back? XD

Hmm, I guess when Tobi (I'm gonna call him Tobi until we find out his true identity) mentioned Nagato's technique being meant to revive him, I took it as Tobi just thinking of Nagato as his own personal contingency plan were to ever die (Nagato = Tobi's Life Bottle/Phoenix Down/Yggdrassil Leaf, LOL). Though Madara not being surprised by being revived, but then being angered by discovering it was through Edo Tensei, does seem a little suspicious. Almost as if he was expecting Nagato to revive him, but not Kabuto. I guess I'm looking forward to finding out more about it.

Also, it might be sort of a random thought, but has Zetsu ever referred to Tobi as "Madara"? From what I've seen, Zetsu seems to have to most intimate knowledge of him, at least compared to rest of the Akatsuki, but I believe he's only referred to him as "Tobi". But I suppose that's not definitive proof that Tobi =/= Madara.

@naruto-z: Do you live in MN, or are you just commenting on Shadow and I being Minnesotans? I also just noticed how Shadow's from Eagan, small world I guess (I live in St. Paul) .
EDIT: Eden Prairie? I like that area, I worked a summer internship over there while I was college. I live in St. Paul right now, but I'm planning on moving into the western suburbs in the next month or two.
*bows apologetically to mods for off-topic personal conversation*

Edited by Boom...Winning, 13 October 2011 - 02:15 AM.

[naruto-z]

@naruto-z: Do live in MN, or you just commenting on Shadow and I being Minnesotans? I also just noticed how Shadow's from Eagan, small world I guess (I live in St. Paul) .

Let's put it this way...You in in SP, Shadow lives in Eagan, some other member here lives in MN but he doesn't come on often.....and I live in EP

[Hiraishin]

Going to jump into the party late. 8D

Gotta admit, the NH moment in this chapter was sweet - but I don't consider it romantic. It could be interpreted as such, but not necessarily. Also, I don't think she really "saved" him when she jumped in during Naruto's fight with Pain... More like nearly got herself killed. And when was the other time she "saved" him, as Naruto mentioned? D: if someone could kindly refresh my memory.. All in all, I think this was closure to the NaruHina pairing - not that they won't talk again, just won't have any sort of romantic implications, especially since Hinata didn't blush or faint when Naruto spoke to her.

To be honest, the thing I was looking forward to in this chapter was Sakura fighting... Too much to expect, I guess. I really hope she gets her chance to shine - her last badass moment was ages ago..

But, like some others have said, this is the first time I've gotten this excited about Naruto in a while - Madara was revealed! I wonder who's behind the mask... I doubt it's Obito, however. Seems like too far of stretch, but who knows - Kishi can do a complete 180 and change the direction of the manga any time he wants, although it'd be odd. I'm just really looking forward to the next chapter, damn.

Edited by mydearbeloved, 13 October 2011 - 02:44 AM.

[FoolishYoungling]

Well, how can Obito really me Tobi? I mean, he was the good guy that gave Kakashi his right eye!

@mydearbeloved: nice sig

[ramenanmitsu]

Going to jump into the party late. 8D

Gotta admit, the NH moment in this chapter was sweet - but I don't consider it romantic. It could be interpreted as such, but not necessarily. Also, I don't think she really "saved" him when she jumped in during Naruto's fight with Pain... More like nearly got herself killed. And when was the other time she "saved" him, as Naruto mentioned? D: if someone could kindly refresh my memory.. All in all, I think this was closure to the NaruHina pairing - not that they won't talk again, just won't have any sort of romantic implications, especially since Hinata didn't blush or faint when Naruto spoke to her.

To be honest, the thing I was looking forward to in this chapter was Sakura fighting... Too much to expect, I guess. I really hope she gets her chance to shine - her last badass moment was ages ago..

But, like some others have said, this is the first time I've gotten this excited about Naruto in a while - Madara was revealed! I wonder who's behind the mask... I doubt it's Obito, however. Seems like too far of stretch, but who knows - Kishi can do a complete 180 and change the direction of the manga any time he wants, although it'd be odd. I'm just really looking forward to the next chapter, damn.

@ the bolded. Actually, that was a mistranslation. Naruto said that it would be lame if he got saved by Hinata twice. I liked the NH interaction. Naruto really has leadership qualities. He realizes the insecurities of people and can make them feel better. But in my opinion, it wasn't a NH moment. For me, I need the scene to have positive romantic undertones to have it considered a moment. So this scene wasn't a moment.

Also, having Naruto's feeling changed off-panel is like suddenly having a panel of Sasuke showing that he actually loved Sakura all along. See how lame that is ? Kishi always shows when a character changes or develops feelings. Like, how Kishi slowly showed Sakura hating Naruto to thinking of him important.

But anyways! Who is Tobi then!? My assumption is that it's Izuna. Tobi seemed a little frightened when he saw the "last coffin". It makes sense if it was Izuna, because the guy in the last coffin literally took his eyeballs out! But damn, I'm so looking forward to seeing the badass Madara fighting!

[Toasty Warrior]

I gotta break up the seriousness of this thread with a true picture of Madara!

Madara's True Self --Click here to view--

[ramenanmitsu]

I gotta break up the seriousness of this thread with a true picture of Madara!

Madara's True Self --Click here to view--

Aww Man. If Kishi actually made Madara like that I would actually cry....

[Strangelove]

Holy mother of god...what just happened...

Crust is made with Yeast


If you didn't get that...don't worry.

This chapter was gooooodddd...even with the NH moment...that was kind of well you know...ugh, i get a feeling we won't get NS, but oh well is the complexity of the chapter.

Edited by Strangelove, 13 October 2011 - 03:19 AM.

[ciardha]

Then he did it badly. It was obvious she was still conflicted. What was honest is that she didn't want Naruto to get hurt anymore. Other than that, it seemed like she was trying to convince herself as much as she was trying to convince Naruto.

That goes for your question too, Fyuria. Sakura was so conflicted and confused that it seemed like she was trying to convince herself and Naruto. She didn't know how to deal with it. She still feels some romantic feelings towards Sasuke and she feels...something towards Naruto, but she doesn't know who to choose.

No, go back and reread 469, 470, and 474. She was absolutely certain about her romantic feelings about Naruto, that's what Kishimoto said she was being honest and determined about, the question was directly about her feelings for Naruto and he answered that he was writing her as being honest and determined in expressing her love for Naruto. Sai emphasizes in 474 that Sakura has moved on from Sasuke and fallen in love with Naruto.

She wasn't the least bit conflicted or confused about her feelings for Naruto. What she was in denial about was that she had eliminated any kind of feelings about Sasuke. She wanted to, she knows it's the only right course, but fragments of feelings and team mate bonds aren't so easily dismissed.

But romantically, that kind of love, while there's fragments of the past, it's been quite obvious since the very beginning of part 2 she had left her romantic feelings about Sasuke go and let her feelings for Naruto blossom (which we first saw her show a conscious shift, ironically enough, as a direct result of Naruto's words in the "Promise of a Lifetime"). Her thoughts about Naruto in that scene are almost exactly part of her words in her confession, making the point that's where the conscious shift started. Already at the end of part 1 when she goes to Tsunade her feelings are equal for Naruto and Sasuke. Tsunade notes this.

By 245 already she's put her crush on Sasuke as a memory- sad but not agonizingly painful at this point. With Naruto in 245 she smiles, coyly blushes and flirts quite overtly- inviting him to look at her body in a sexual way. Compare to her interactions with Sasuke- no smiles, blushes, and sure as heck no flirting, not even in the first moments of the first part 2 encounter. Sakura's reactions when she has romantic feelings for someone is coy smiles, blushes and flirting. At that first moment She sees Sasuke, she has a moment of awe, that immediately shifts to fear, then briefly to anger fueled action when he threatens Naruto's life, then back to fear, then deeper sadness, with the start of the emotional pain related to what Sasuke has become.

One only has to look at the Sannin to see how much impact a team mate bond has. Kishimoto even intentionally makes the parallel obvious where Sakura doesn't tell anyone her plan, and knocks out the rest of her team to take down Sasuke alone, Naruto's pursuit and attempts at battlefield persuasion of Sasuke, and Kakashi even overtly makes the comparison of himself to Hiruzen confronting Orochimaru....

Tsunade states she never liked or trusted Orochimaru, but based on her mourning reaction to news of his death, like Sakura she was in a bit of denial. She never had romantic feelings for Orochimaru, but it's pretty clear from her words when she's talking to Jiraiya, that at least in their early years as a team, she was as much a friend to him as Jiraiya was.

Orochimaru, unlike Sasuke with Team 7, never really shut out his fragment of a bond to Tsunade (he wasn't above psychologically really hurting her, in fact he enjoyed in a sick creepy way), he states outright to that she was the only person he never wanted to kill. Even after he makes the threat when she announces she has decided to become Hokage, it's basically an empty threat. He still feels enough of a bond that in the same scene he warns her about the danger Naruto poses as the seal weakens as he grows.

Then come his telling actions in part 2- Konoha instead of an enemy, is now an unwitting ally- it's pretty obvious it's because of that fragment of his team mate bond to Tsunade. He knows Naruto and Sakura have a direct connection to Tsunade and stops Sasuke from attempting to kill them. Even when Orochimaru battles them at the Heaven and Earth bridge it's more toying with them than really trying to kill them, he doesn't stop Yamato from saving Sakura, Kabuto partly heals Sakura's arm, the fight with Naruto is sheering toying and testing Naruto. Interestingly, he goes away from that fight kind of impressed with Naruto. He also warns them about Sai's plan. Then when he stops Sasuke, he says it's because Konoha is an unwitting ally to their aims, but Sasuke sneers and scoffs at his reason. (Sasuke thinks he's superior to Orochimaru because he's telling himself he's cut all his bonds to Konoha.) He can see through Orochimaru- that despite all he's done and how twisted and evil he is, a little part of Orochimaru still feels a connection to Konoha and to Tsunade. (Interesting how Kishimoto gives even a character as twisted and evil as Orochimaru a faint hint of something human still in him. It makes his character a bit more realistic. I think seeing Naruto and Sakura's determination to not give up on Sasuke, may have also brought those fragments of his old team bonds more to the surface, he may looked at Naruto and Sakura and saw an echo of Jiraiya and Tsunade- his interactions with them once they are actually at the hideout is oddly protective...)

But Sasuke isn't as completely free as he thinks he is, at least as far as Naruto goes. Naruto was even able to stop Sasuke's murderously violent psychopathic behavior, and get a bit inside his head and even listen to what Naruto had to say. That's why Sasuke is so desperate to kill Naruto first of all.

Edited by ciardha, 13 October 2011 - 07:09 AM.

[Super Boom]

@ the bolded. Actually, that was a mistranslation. Naruto said that it would be lame if he got saved by Hinata twice.

Thanks, I was actually wondering about that too. My first thought was that she somehow 'saved' him by loving him, which would be pretty absurd, seeing as how, in my opinion, the confession part of her 'rescue' did more harm than good. But if his message only concerns her actual rescue, then the line makes more sense.

I gotta break up the seriousness of this thread with a true picture of Madara!

Madara's True Self --Click here to view--

No way, it's obvious who Tobi really is.

Tobi's True Identity! --Click here to view--

It's Pedo-Bear!

It all seriousness though, Tobi/Madara took off part of his mask while talking to Sasuke (for like one panel) and we saw part of his face during his fight with Konan, and both times I got the impression he was old/aged man. So Tobi being Izuna or another incarnation of Madara seem more likely to me, unless Tobi is using an old man disguise underneath his mask. Which means he's basically wearing two masks, LOL.

[StrawberryAcappella]

While I Can;t say I leave comments very often, I can Say That For the first time in a while I've actually liked Hinata In a chapter. She seems to have gotten more mature, i got a different feeling from her in this chapter(I'm hoping it stays this way) And I didn't Find It Completely unbearable to read through her parts. Madara Plot Twist= 4 Teh Win

[tricksie]

Wow, never seen you so emoed out before. It's like the opposite is happening right now, last chapter when we all freaked you were trying to be positive. Now it's the other way around, quite ironic actually. I think we should just go with the flow for now, the only reason I'd be worried is if the Viz translation was correct for Kushina. But I think it all ties back to Naruto being able to read people extremely well, at some point he was going to acknowledge her there's no mistake about that.

And Sakura's been attacked by Zetsus in this war twice now. You think they're done yet? And with this shocking (yet completely seen coming/obvious) twist we've got a ways to go. He hasn't introduced anyone new yet.

Yeah, I went all Sasuke for a minute there, didn't I?! I just don't think this chapter was an unequivocal closure for NH. But don't worry, I have no doubts in NS.

I'm curious about what Naruto said to Hinata about her saving him at least twice. Was there some question about the translation?

[Insurrection]

Yeah, I went all Sasuke for a minute there, didn't I?! I just don't think this chapter was an unequivocal closure for NH. But don't worry, I have no doubts in NS.

I'm curious about what Naruto said to Hinata about her saving him at least twice. Was there some question about the translation?

To be honest I don't know if it's a moment I had in Borders before it shut down or if I saw it, but for some reason I swore the Viz translation of 504 had Kushina saying don't fall for the first girl you see, but I'm not sure anymore. Meh. Hell though it had to be obvious that Naruto was going to say something to Hinata eventually. It startled me to but looking back on it, I would've done something similar with more chapters left to go, if Kishi chooses to do NaruHina now it means he's given up on his plot or we missed something ourselves. But it seems so tilted towards Sakura that it just seems different, the Sasuke stuff though has to stop.

Other then that I'm still predicting NaruSaku.

Edited by Insurrection, 13 October 2011 - 04:30 AM.

[ciardha]

Tobi's not an impostor. My theory at the moment is that he's some sort of wacky clone body with all of Madara's memories. It would explain all the strange, abnormal things about his body and why he doesn't have any of his original ninjutsu aside from the Mangekyou Sharingan. And he was freaked out before because he has a weakness and knowing this is probably the key to defeating him.

That's a really good theory.

The only real weakness of the Obito body with part of Madara's soul controlling theory it is the maturity of "Madara's" body when he fought Minato on the night Naruto was born. Obito would have been then 14. While the Uchiha clan does seems to have an earlier than typical teen growth spurt spike- at best, he would have been slightly taller than Kakashi and Guy at that time (which would have brought him near to adult height), but like them he would have still had a teen boy's build, not a man's.

And the cloned body theory would also point an arrow back to Orochimaru being involved with the whole Tobi/Madara revival. Orochimaru had motivation (he hated Konoha and especially Hiruzen and Jiraiya for passing over him to make Minato the 4th Hokage), was already doing sick, creepy, human experimentation, had secretly become a member of the Akatsuki, etc...

Edited by ciardha, 13 October 2011 - 04:52 AM.

[Phantom_999]

That's subjective. I was doubting her when she said "I love you." It was far too sudden and really, when she told their peers that she's the one who'll do the talking, I was sure that at most, she didn't even knew what she truly felt. Hell, my reaction in my head was almost the same as Naruto's. "What? Why now? Do you really know what you're talking about?" etc.

Well you're entitled to your opinion that's just how I feel but I tell you it WAS NOT as far as her feelings go there were hints she felt that way about him more or less through out the series. this was just the first time she was voicing them. So I just want to ask you, do you Doubt the honesty of her feelings BECAUSE You really, as you stated, "felt it was too sudden" right off the bat or was it because Naruto reacted negatively to it? Remember If it was a lie Kishi wouldn't even bother calling her an "honest girl". Determined? yes. Caring? absolutely. But lying and betraying Naruto all the same and it would be poor development for her character. But this is how I see thing. Anyways if you can give a clear answer to my question I won't press any further.

[Codus N]

@ the bolded. Actually, that was a mistranslation. Naruto said that it would be lame if he got saved by Hinata twice. I liked the NH interaction. Naruto really has leadership qualities. He realizes the insecurities of people and can make them feel better. But in my opinion, it wasn't a NH moment. For me, I need the scene to have positive romantic undertones to have it considered a moment. So this scene wasn't a moment.

Also, having Naruto's feeling changed off-panel is like suddenly having a panel of Sasuke showing that he actually loved Sakura all along. See how lame that is ? Kishi always shows when a character changes or develops feelings. Like, how Kishi slowly showed Sakura hating Naruto to thinking of him important.

But anyways! Who is Tobi then!? My assumption is that it's Izuna. Tobi seemed a little frightened when he saw the "last coffin". It makes sense if it was Izuna, because the guy in the last coffin literally took his eyeballs out! But damn, I'm so looking forward to seeing the badass Madara fighting!

Thanks, you're a big help!!! I'm betting the translator deliberately translated it as such because he's a NH fan. Oh yeah, do you have the raw??

Yeah, I went all Sasuke for a minute there, didn't I?! I just don't think this chapter was an unequivocal closure for NH. But don't worry, I have no doubts in NS.

I'm curious about what Naruto said to Hinata about her saving him at least twice. Was there some question about the translation?

narux3, our resident translator corrected it.


As for the soul split theory, I think 3c from MH has a clearer explanation.

Exactly. However I'm more inclined to believe that Tobi is a creation or type of clone of Madara. A creation using the last not seen Uchiha technique referenced to japanese lore,Izanami, as well as Zetsu material. Going by the Tobi is "Madara"/part of Madara/soul split theory, Madara must have created Tobi before his death and planned for him to make sure his resurrection took place. You said it yourself, Kisame recognized Tobi as Madara even after seeing both the short and long haired Tobi. Unless Kisame got tricked by a henge, or Tobi goes through hair cuts several times in the manga (which is very uncommon, and never happens in Naruto at least), the long haired masked man should have been the real Madara, and short haired Tobi.

What's at least known now, is that this was planned by Madara. He was expecting to be resurrected, and Tobi is no doubt part of that plan. After all Tobi was greatly annoyed when Nagato went ahead and died without using Rinne Tensei for his wishes. It would also explain why he was so angered and scared kittenless by Kabuto summoning Madara. It meant that he could no longer just go and get the Rinnegan and revive Madara himself, as Madara's soul (or a part of Tobi's soul if we go by the soul split theory) is under Kabuto's control. The soul split theory makes perfect sense. It's why Tobi knows everything Madara knows, as if he is Madara. It's why he is a shell of his former self. It's why he speaks of himself (Madara) in third person, because technically he both is and isn't Madara. And finally it's why he has the same agenda as Madara. He was created as a part of Madara's plan of immortality and resurrection after death.

So basically, the 2 keypoints are, Izanami and Tobi's statement that he is nothing but "a shell of his former self" (confirmed by Itachi). So, I'm believing the cause for the soul split is Izanami, and that both of them are Madara.

I believe next chapter we'll see Naruto getting the info from Inoichi and Kyuubi will overhear it and go all like "heh, I knew it". If there's one person that knows the truth behind Tobi and Madara, it's Kyuubi. Kyuubi will probably act all cocky at first but I have a feeling Shikamaru will hatch up a plan that will force Kyuubi to cooperate ('cause he's just that sneaky )

In order to unmask Tobi, Shikamaru will order Bee and Naruto to fall back to Gaara's division and lure Tobi there. Once they arrive at Gaara's place, they can force Tobi (and Madara) to spill the beans. Kyuubi will blatantly say that the plan is nuts. Making them face both Madaras is like handing them their victories on a silver platter because once they get control of Kyuubi (and possibly Hachibi) it's all over. But of course, Shikamaru (or Shikaku) will give Kyuubi an ultimatum. Either he cooperates, or be ripped of his freedom and mind controlled again. I could see it like this:

Shikamaru (or Shikaku): All right Kyuubi, if you don't cooperate, you'll be ripped of your freedom completely. But if you cooperate with us and Naruto, you'll have some freedom to rampage as much as you want.
Hachibi: And besides, it would be rather degrading for the great Kyuubi-sama to reduced to a mere puppet wouldn't it?? I think I'd know which one I'd choose.
Kyuubi: GRRR!!! FINE!! I'll do it!!! but just this once, okay!!??
Shikamaru: Good, while you're at it, spill the beans on Madara or whoever that guy is.

(All the conversation above are connected through Inoichi)

And yes, I do believe that Shikaku and Shikamaru also have intel that to become a perfect Jincuuriki like Bee is one needs complete cooperation with the Bijuu. And YES, I can see Hachibi giving a dent on Kyuubi's ego. That thing's ego is probably the size of the moon so it wouldn't be hard to goad him.

Edited by Codus N, 13 October 2011 - 05:56 AM.

[pizza_blade]

Poor Yamato.

No one seems to give a damn about him