4869 replies to this topic

[Froot]

Everything jenskott said is true.

I actually prefer to think of Sasuke as a catalyst for NaruSaku. Without him, they wouldn't really be able to appreciate each other as much as they do. There's nothing wrong with getting a jumpstart from somebody else.

But it's not like Sasuke's the only issue for them. I believe this was stated in Heronite's NaruSaku essay. There are multiple other situations wherein they have a moment, or even just hold a conversation - without Sasuke. Some examples:

-Ch 450; the hug. Yeah. Was Sasuke anywhere near them? No. Was he mentioned? At all? No. Did Sasuke tell Sakura to hug Naruto? Did anyone tell Sakura to hug Naruto?

-When she went after Naruto in his kyuubified state. Yes, Sasuke was mentioned. But the fact is, in her desperation, she told Naruto to give up on Sasuke - for the second time. It goes to show that Sakura values Naruto's health and safety more than Sasuke.

-In smaller, more subtle moments, like when Sakura tried to cheer Naruto up. That wasn't about Sasuke.

Anyways, aren't the best pairings the ones that the other characters had a hand in? It's just fun to see everyone making a team effort

[Derock]

Another yawning-inducing argument is: "NS needs other people to become canon!".

Wait, so promoting NaruSaku canon is bringing in Beta Couples to the story in their eyes?

Oh boy, as I said before, this isn't no Soap Opera we seen on TV. And Jenskott just said, this is Kishimoto's story and he's in control (regarding of the editor's control as well) and if NaruSaku is the potential couple he's writing for his storyline, he SHALL write it down. While we did see one Beta Couple (Asuma/Kurenai and some Jiraiya/Tsunade -not sure they were one, but they had hints- indirectly), I hardly will see any other Betas (involving any of the Konoha 11 or ninjas from Rock/Sand/Cloud/Mist) come in at the end of the series when the Alpha Couple becomes canon.

[Jenskott]

Wait, so promoting NaruSaku canon is bringing in Beta Couples to the story in their eyes?

That wasn't what I meant. I was refering to arguments such like: "They are a bad pairing because they need other people (Sai, Yamato) for bringing them closer", "If Sai wouldn't have said anything, NS wouldn't have happened", "They are a bad pairing because Naruto can't tell Sakura how he feels, and he needs other people doing it in his stead"...

[pinkheartsyellowstars]

Let's stopping picking on NH fan, guys. Alright?

Anyway, I agree. That list is artificially lenghtened. All of those scenes either don't imply romantic development or it's all on the Hinata's side. Moreover, that person is unable to list one single moment from chapter 80 to chapter 238. Does that person think nothing of it?

Okay:) haha

that list is usually i found from a of another forums and there he states some NH moments according to manga, and that is what his reply to me because i defended for NS.

hmm being curious, what happen to Chapter 80 to 238?

[Derock]

That wasn't what I meant. I was refering to arguments such like: "They are a bad pairing because they need other people (Sai, Yamato) for bringing them closer", "If Sai wouldn't have said anything, NS wouldn't have happened", "They are a bad pairing because Naruto can't tell Sakura how he feels, and he needs other people doing it in his stead"...

Oh. But wait, they said it is wrong about other people for bringing Naruto and Sakura closer but they will claim the statement Sakura had said about Hinata always looking at Naruto way back in the Chuunin Exams is good?

[Kyuudaime]

Oh. But wait, they said it is wrong about other people for bringing Naruto and Sakura closer but they will claim the statement Sakura had said about Hinata always looking at Naruto way back in the Chuunin Exams is good?

Possibly, but I don't think that Sakura stated that to Naruto/Hinata.

[Froot]

In fact, I don't recall that being stated period.

Edited by Froot, 23 September 2009 - 01:58 AM.

[catsi563]

Actually that is the truth. during the prelims Sakura told Naruto that Hinata was always watching him. It was part of the pre-build up that lead to narutos cheering Hinata on and combined with Nejis treatment of Hinata lead to the face off with Neji.

[Jenskott]

Oh. But wait, they said it is wrong about other people for bringing Naruto and Sakura closer but they will claim the statement Sakura had said about Hinata always looking at Naruto way back in the Chuunin Exams is good?

I wouldn't be shocked if they found nothing wrong with it.

Do you remember how Kurenai whispering "Hinata..." showed Kurenai knew Hinata's feelings -despite she wasn't alluding to them specifically- and proved she was in love with Naruto, but Yamato talking about Sakura's feelings proved nothing?

I guess you could argue Kurenai was Hinata's sensei whereas Yamato hadn't dealt with Naruto and Sakura for so long.

However, I always found amusing how Sai phrased Naruto's feelings (or how Kishimoto wrote his speech): "Even I can see how much he loves you".

Naruto's characters themselves are stating ANYBODY can realize Naruto and Sakura's feelings. Kishimoto is putting those speeches on their mouths. I find it highly hilarious for some reason.

Actually that is the truth. during the prelims Sakura told Naruto that Hinata was always watching him. It was part of the pre-build up that lead to narutos cheering Hinata on and combined with Nejis treatment of Hinata lead to the face off with Neji.

Exactly.

[Froot]

I remember now. But if I'm correct, Kurenai was only Hinata's sensei for no longer than a few months at this point, just the same as Naruto and Kakashi. Though, I could be wrong.

And Jenskott, are you saying that ''even Sai can tell'' because it's so obvious?

That's awesome. And it's totally true, too. Their feelings are soobvious that two guys - one of them being clueless socially and emotionally - could tell, after only being with them no more than a month (Yamato), and Sai has a psychological handicap, basically, so...

[Jenskott]

And Jenskott, are you saying that ''even Sai can tell'' because it's so obvious?

Yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. Kishimoto is drawing Sai telling: "Even I can tell he's in love with you". Gee, it's like if he was saying: "Seriously. I can't make it MORE obvious."

Anyway, I recently heard something got me wondering.

Some of you have ever read Urusei Yatsura? It's the first successful manga Rumiko Takahashi (Ranma and Inu-Yasha's creator) drew.

If you are interesed, you can read the entire manga here: Urusei Yatsura and peruse information about the story and its characters here: Tomobiki-cho, the Urusei Yatsura Webpage.

(No, I haven't included a link to the wikipedia webpage. Boggles the mind, isn't it?)

You'll see, when I came across the serie for first time, I only read the first chapters, and I thought the main couple was Ataru/Shinobu. Later I watched one of the -many- movies, and I was shocked when I found out Ataru and Lum were the official pairing. I read more bits of the manga afterwards and I accepted Ataru/Lum like the canon pairing, but there always was something nagging me. It didn't sit entirely well with me, despite I am a "It's canon. Get over it and accept it." kind of fan.

And then I found theTVTropes page and I read this bit:

•Takahashi Couple - a strange case in that the show itself is not example, but the reason for the trope coming into existence! Rumiko Takahashi intended for the Official Couple to be Ataru and Shinobu... until the editor and the general public made it known to her that they preferred Lum to Shinobu. While Takahashi herself has stated her great liking for Lum since, and has no ill-feelings towards the Lum & Ataru pairing, she created the Takahashi Couple in every manga since to prevent any fan/editor hijacking of her romantic interests (ironically, though, every intended couple since has been the favorite of fans and editors anyway, so one has to wonder if there's really a need at all for her to do this - and if she just didn't realize the storytelling gold she had with Ataru and Lum at the beginning).

Let me state ouright that no link to a reliable source was offered so it's possible that information is unaccurate, false or wrong. But I started pondering if that's true, it'd explain why Ataru/Lum never felt completely right to me.

And of course, it got me pondering: Kishimoto's editors could force him to change the intended pairing for one more popular? After all, he has been forced to make changes at his editors' behest.

However, let's examine both instances:

UY it's a romance-based series (so that the main couple is more important), and Takahashi-san changed the pairing early on. Very early on. Before the third volume (deluxe edition).

Naruto is an action-based series (so romance isn't so important) and Kishimoto hasn't shown Naruto's feelings changing at all through the entire series 465 chapters. In fact, he has recently gone out of his way for showing it's the other way around.

NH has always been popular -but not very popular in Japan-, so if his editors were going to compel him making NH the official pairing, and he was going to comply with their wishes,we would have begun seeing CONSTANT NH hints long ago. Instead of, we constantly have NaruSaku hints... and NaruSasu fanservice. But all of us KNOW NaruSasu will NEVER be canon, so we must not be concerned about it.

What is my point, then? Writing down something I have been thinkig about of late, concerning to the pairing debate. And possibly offering a counter-point to the "Kishimoto will do what his fans demand!" argument. Even if editors have leverage about the writer, I think we mustn't be afraid of it. If he was going to get Naruto and Hinata together because his editor/the readership forced him, he would already have done so.

...

By the way... Not long ago I came across with the "Why fillers don't count? I'm curious about it. Kishimoto goes through the effort of thinking of and writing one plot down and having his editor's approval, and people tells it doesn't count!" infamous line.

Sigh.

It doesn't count because Kishimot DIDN'T write it. And he certainly DIDN'T get his editor's approval. If you don't EVEN know that, then I'm afraid I can't take your opinions seriously.

The cartoon-makers came up with them because they were catching the manga. It is not canon and these stories don't affect the storyline and never will be reffered to again. In a nutshell, they are a waste of time.

Moreover, why would you WANT them counting? The stories suck, the fights are overly stupid and the characters are dumbed down and their stereotypoical traits are overexaggerated until they become one-dimensional clichés (Naruto goes from slightly dim-witted to utter fool and blithering idiot, Sakura goes from slightly violent to utterly maniacal, Hinata goes from slightly meek and shy to unbearably timid and annoyingly stuttering stalker...).

Keep that putrid rabble far, far away my canon, please.

[catsi563]

in regards to the fillers most are crap i agree, but occasionally you catch a gem or two. like the investigate sound arc. one of the few Narusaku based filler arcs and one of the only ones done so well Id consider it canon.

[Jenskott]

Personally I only acknowledge scenes built upon the manga, which add to it instead of contradicting it or disservicing the characters.

I'll explain myself with examples: Tiger-Man Mizuki? A random shinobi manipulating metal when the manga blatantly states no one but the third KazeKage wielded that skill? I don't acknowledge such silliness.

Sai goading Sakura in defending Naruto and she biting the bait like a naive trout? It's built upon scenes and characterizations in the manga, so I can consider it CANON anime (but non canon manga, in spite of it might have happened).

Perhaps I'm biased, but I have the feeling of NH fanservice shows up in filler chapters unrelated to the manga, whereas NS fanservice shows up in episodes adapting manga chapters.

Yes, maybe I'm biased. But if you think about it, it's logical.

[Froot]

I'm kind of disappointed that there haven't been any NaruSaku moments in the manga yet. But I kinda think it's a good thing. Kishi's building up suspense, and at this point, I think we can pretty much expect a huge NaruSaku monent. Eeeee!!! I'm so excited! It's like...

Eek!

[Shadowmoon~]

Actually, even in the fillers, NaruSaku and KibaHina was much more evident.

I remember in the 'Treasure Hunting' filler with Naruto, Kiba, and Hinata, when Hinata blushed because Naruto encouraged her or something, you can clearly see in Kiba's face his annoyance that Hinata was stuck with Naruto, so he even grabbed Naruto away from Hinata, saying that they need to continue their mission like now!

I'll try to find a short video about that. Then, I'll post it. I had always been a KibaHinata fan since the beginning, so I easily notice their moments.

Seriously, there were more NaruSaku and KibaHina stuff in the fillers, than NaruHina, or even SasuSaku.

My other observation was, the 'main' girl, or the person who Naruto will save, usually end up liking Naruto, or blushing at his words. I just forgot their names. I'll search for that too.

[Froot]

Once again, I agree with jenskott regarding the fillers. But there was something I absolutely HATED, with a passion, about the arc where it was them going to the Sound.

Remember when Kabuto was telling Sakura Sasuke died, then threw a kunai at her, and she just stood there?

That completely pissed me off. The animators just basically took a huge sh!t on her character. Like, ''in this arc, let's bring Sakura's 'Sasuke Obsession' back and make her weak, angsty, and suicidal.''

I mean, come on. Am I the only one who shook their head at that?

Though, silver lining here, I think the symbolism of when Naruto saved her was pretty deep. It's like, he's saving her from her will to lay down and die. She became a fighter after that. For the most part, she was pretty in character.

The NaruSaku filler moments were a lot deeper than the NaruHina ones, too. There were like, 50,000 NH moments where all it is is just Hinata blushing at Naruto or Naruto accidentally saying something nice to her. The deepest one is probably when she hugged him.

Which, by the way, was only filler

[Jenskott]

Once again, I agree with jenskott regarding the fillers. But there was something I absolutely HATED, with a passion, about the arc where it was them going to the Sound.

Remember when Kabuto was telling Sakura Sasuke died, then threw a kunai at her, and she just stood there?

That completely pissed me off. The animators just basically took a huge sh!t on her character. Like, ''in this arc, let's bring Sakura's 'Sasuke Obsession' back and make her weak, angsty, and suicidal.''

I mean, come on. Am I the only one who shook their head at that?

I can't opine because I haven't watched those chapters, but it sounds like Adaptation Distillation or Adaptation Decay. The character's anime portrayal usually simplifies personalities or overexaggerates some character traits. Sometimes a manga character can be very different of its anime counterpart.

And it not only happens in comic-books. I often shake my head when I think of the Lord of Rings movies.

Often it boils down to individual interpretrations of the reader. Two persons can read the same story and have points of view very different or even absolutely and irreconciliably opposite.

But often it's also caused because the adaptator or cartoon-maker WANTS writing one specific story and scene, but that scene is impossible given the characters' stablished personalitie, backgrounds and past behaviors. So instead of changing his/her story or giving it up altogether, he changes the character, twisting his/her personality.

Personally I loathe that kind of behavior.

Anyway, if you consider both situations, you can understand better why the characters' personalities change in fanfiction so greatly.The tomboys turn more violent, the smart ones turn smarter, the dumb ones turn more foolish...

Nevertheless, there's something I'd like asking: NH and SS fans keep including the databooks in their arguments? I remember the first and the second DB were widely used by NH and SS when they believed they supported their theories, but I haven't heard of late some argument involving databooks.

I don't check other boards for debates, but I skim over the anti-NS arguments are pasted in this thread, and I haven't seen the databooks mentioned of late. They aren't being used right now or NH/SS fans still treat them like Word of God?

[Froot]

Anyway, if you consider both situations, you can understand better why the characters' personalities change in fanfiction so greatly.The tomboys turn more violent, the smart ones turn smarter, the dumb ones turn more foolish...

That's probably where the NH/SS fans get their "Sakura's a b*tch to Naruto" arguement. Not just in filler, but also in the little added-in moments, movies, and
omakes, they make Sakura hit Naruto, like, fifty thousand more times than she actually does. They totally over-exaggerate, making her look like a superkitten, when she really isn't that bad at all. And Hinata, too. They make her look so desperate and meek and terrified that it's pathetic.

Nevertheless, there's something I'd like asking: NH and SS fans keep including the databooks in their arguments? I remember the first and the second DB were widely used by NH and SS when they believed they supported their theories, but I haven't heard of late some argument involving databooks.

I don't check other boards for debates, but I skim over the anti-NS arguments are pasted in this thread, and I haven't seen the databooks mentioned of late. They aren't being used right now or NH/SS fans still treat them like Word of God?

They take everything the animators do and the data book writers say to heart, but scoff at the "It Takes Two" article Viz Media (I think?) wrote. All it is is hypocrisy.

They assume the writers of the data books actually decide how the series is written, when all it is, in my opinion, is a somewhat subjective viewpoint of the reader of what's going on, when really, the have no idea what Kishimoto is planning or what plot twists and revelations he's got up his sleeve. They just feel the need to over-analyze everything, like conspiracy theorists challenge the moon landing and pretty much everything else the government does.

They just look too hard.

Edited by Froot, 01 October 2009 - 04:11 PM.

[catsi563]

they havent relaly mentioned the third databook lately because hinatas barely mentioned in it, and Sakura is linked closer to naruto then anyone save Tsunade.

[Miss Soupy]

they havent relaly mentioned the third databook lately because hinatas barely mentioned in it, and Sakura is linked closer to naruto then anyone save Tsunade.

Was it the recent data book that had a relationship chart that showed Sakura was unsure how she felt about Naruto? Or was that something else entirely...?