31746 replies to this topic

[NaruSaku fan in Kentucky]

Only reason Naruto was successful was because of Yahagi.

[Aizen-Sama]

Boruto's hair looks like a cross between a leaf and a mushroom. The reason it looks like a leaf is to symbolize the maryjane that Kishimoto was on, and the reason it looks like a mushroom is to symbolize the shrooms that he was on. The reason Boruto sounds like Burrito is to symbolize the massive amount of poop this food makes you poop. Bolt = poop.

Edited by Aizen-Sama, 08 May 2015 - 10:15 PM.

[WhyDoIWatch]

 

u wot m8

 

The original is always better than the copy 

 

 

 

 

In fact pretty much anything in HxH is better than in Naruto, it's a shame that Togashi is sooo lazy 

So, would Light be better than Lelouch, if the Original is always better?  

 

Bold~Can't argue with that.

Edited by WhyDoIWatch, 08 May 2015 - 10:33 PM.

[Nar123]

Answers in bold

 

Canon establishes no such thing anywhere. Tsunade's statement, and I quote, "It's a forbidden jutsu that only I know how to use." This might lead some to arrive at the conclusion that the technique was somehow manufactured by Tsunade. After all, she claims to be the only one who knows how to use it. Well the same could be said of various other techniques that had only one user at some point such as the Rasengan, Chidori/Raikiri, Shiki Fujin, Hiraishi (prior to Minato or his guards acquiring it).

 

It's hers, the byakugou seal itself isn't hers but the creation rebirth and it's derivatives come from her

http://naruto.wikia....reation_Rebirth

Creation Rebirth was developed by Tsunade for the sake of continuing to protect the lives of her comrades. That is the resolution hidden in this technique.

Creation Rebirth/Byakugou is no sooner a personal private technique of Tsunade's because of her immodesty and need to intimidate the enemy through claims of immortality than Hiraishin belonging to Minato prior to the discovery of other users like Tobirama.

 

The difference is that we learned that the hiraishin came from the second hokage, however the creation rebirth still came from Tsunade until further retcons

Oh, and just for your information, the technical name of the seal is "Byakugō no In". It correlates to the relationship shared between it and Creation Rebirth/Byakugou, even before any techniques are unleashed. Which means that if Mito was aware of the name specifically, what would it mean to her? Is it just a distinctive sounding reservoir of chakra? I doubt it. The Uzumaki clan is renowned for possessing high vitality and long life expectancies. For any technique that's dependent on how great in size your life force is, being an Uzumaki would be of use. It's somewhat of a stretch, but it demonstrates how Mito is familiar with the name of the same ability the seal develops into.

 

No, it doesn't mean that, byakugou is the name of the seal itself, the name of the technique in japanese as you said being "byakugou no in" doesn't prove anything, MIto could be the one to use that method of chakra storage back then but the one who eveolved that technique further into the byakugou no in/creation rebirth was Tsunade until further notice, anything else is pure speculation

 

 

 

According to the respective feats of Byakuou/Creation and its sister affiliated ability, Hashirama's regeneration, if you want to take the notion "regeneration" literally, it's already been retconned when they acted uncertain enough through their choice of actions to not rely on senjutsu/Byakugou to create entirely new limbs for themselves/Naruto. Of course, I was always skeptical of the idea of Tsunade's Byakugou excreting limbs and organs from damaged bloodied stumps or empty cavities where there isn't even a single viable tissue cell remaining for it to evolve complexly to remould the exact shape, size, design, and functions of limbs/organs.

 

The byakugou has a severe disavantage

 

However, a body's cells can only split a certain number of times in a lifetime, and by speeding up this process, users of this technique are basically shortening their natural lifespan

 

So it makes sense for other alternatives to be looked upon in relation while on the regeneration aspect and as I said numerous times, it would be possible to bring back organs, limbs as long as there is

a)enough chakra

b)tissue material of said organ to duplicate

 

 

It was a dubious claim to begin with, but with the characters who should be able to accomplish them opting for alternatives when it should be so easy to regenerate at the cost of not much chakra, at least to Tsunade's arrogant claim of "never dying in battle", there's reason to believe that it's not as powerful as someone would argue. You're implying that an ability giving pseudo-immortality in combat that renders you incapable of dying is so taxing on chakra reserves and vitality that the users would be reluctant to actually use it? At the end of the manga, Tsunade wasn't even in danger of attack from some enemy, yet she chose to take the more difficult option of studying Hashirama's cells and then undergoing the time consuming process of making a completely new arm with all of the functions of a regular arm.

 

Have you ever stop to think that the byakugou, while a strong technique is also not the only thing to carry Tsunade weight in battle? While it keeps her in constant regeneration and being able to tank jutsus and whatnot, one sure punch coming from her would probably be enough to end a battle

I already told of the severe disavantage the byakugou has... so that's why other forms of bringing back limbs had to be looked at, as well I presume that bringing back limbs with the byakugou would waste a big deal of chakra, and as I said for Naruto to be able to bring back his limbs he would've to learn the byakugou in first place which for him is quite unnecessary

In fights, you're obligated to show feats anyway, not blindly cling to boastful comments and take them as an undeniable God's honest truth. Tsunade claimed to be able to reconstruct damaged organs and limbs, but there are no feats to speak of except for damaged spinal cords and midsection that only remotely prove its applicability in combat.

 

You can't rely only on on-screen feats because of course the MC's are going to look better than anyone else which can be misleading sometimes

You constantly forget of the Kages battle against Madara, Tsunade got pierced by two gigantic swords that covered her entire torse, yet after taking them off, she was still fine and was regenerated shortly after
 

So from what I understand of this section of your post, your conclusion made is that Mito developed a magical chakra preserving seal, somehow, with no material or teacher confirmed to exist who might have guided her along, only for her to keep it as an accessory. Well, that's the logical conclusion to make from "the only ones known to release the seal". She would keep a reservoir of chakra available on her forehead for no reason other than... Well, for extra chakra? She's an Uzumaki with all of the Kyuubi's power lying dormant inside of her. You'll forgive me if I find that meaningless.

 

We don't know for what MIto used the byakugou seal, blame kishimoto. It's a storage chara she could've let there to override the kyuubi at some point or to even use as a reserve to augment some of her jutsu, or what else

What we know is that the one who used the seal to develop the creation rebirth is Tsunade and that's it

 

What stands to reason is her knowledge of the name of the seal, and the techniques derived from it that happen to share in said name. There would be no other incentive to keep the seal if it's limited strictly to being a third power source for a woman who is already a chakra behemoth for being able to contain all of the Kyuubi.

 

You forget that the kyuubi wasn't that educated at the time, it was quite rude, I doubt Mito even touched it's foul chakra. 

Also as I said before, blame Kishimoto for not explaining things properly

 

Why would close quarters combat allow Tsunade to challenge mid S-rank opponents? Her actual technique and methodology is the equivalent of a hulkish slugging boxer. There's no pivots, no grapples, no joint locks, no concurrent attacks - she has difficulty adjusting herself to the movements of her opponent. Some fans may vouch for her taijutsu aptitude because of the perfect "5" in stats, but the evidence in-manga paints a different picture. To me, Tsunade is just a glorified Sakura who brazenly charges headfirst into battle without much leeway to adapt to the circumstances of the battle and of her opponent's own fighting style. Tank and heal is the rule of thumb for Tsunade and her apprentice.

 

She is a tank, you know what that is don't you? She knows how to dodge and has a relatively good ability but her focus is on her monstrous strenght, your own personal opinions don't even matter because that's how you perveiced her, the fact is that on a battle, a tank fighter can be useful,  it can take a lot of damage but deal even more damage.

Taijutsu doesn't base itself only on velocity, diversity or what not, the force of the strikes also matter, and may I tell Jiraya almost died due to the impact of a punch from her

 

 

Rock Lee fighting against Kimimaro was a more impressive display of complex technique and martial arts discipline than anything Tsunade has ever exhibited in the manga. She's the same girl who was placed into a vulnerable state after attempting to kick Kabuto, who doesn't excel at taijutsu to begin with; granted, he had taken a soldier pill prior and she was rusty. But for a Sannin's first battle on-screen? It's not all that impressive that she's being pressured by Part 1 Kakashi tier enemies.

 

There you are again, Taijutsu isn't only complex techniques and what not, it's your own blame of not perceiving Tsunade's and Sakura's style of taijutsu as not useful when in fact it can be in the right circumstances

 

The fight against Kabuto is a whole another matter she would defeat him if not for his "blood tactic"

No, I just recognise her limitations as a fighter. The only claim to recognition in battle that she has is Byakugou and straight undeviating attacks packaged with chakra. The three aforementioned examples of middle S-rank tier characters have multiple ways to put her down.

 

Everybody has limitations except Naruto and Sasuke in God mode, you look down on Tsunade because of her abilities, but they are useful and important in a fight, not everything has to be complex and super detailed

She is the weakest sannin I agree on that, but she's also not completely useless. I'd say that as a Kage she is above Mei and on par with Gaara

 

 

Tell me, how do you expect Tsunade to survive once Kisame fuses with Samehada and unleashes water dome? Osmoregulation allows for Katsuyu to absorb only so much water before the cells begin to expand and eventually burst. So summoning is out of the question unless Tsunade wants Katsuyu to die. And Tsunade is not known for being some unnatural swimming athlete on steroids that can match the 110 km/h sailfish. She's going to be toyed with since any chakra touching Kisame is absorbed and human movements become sluggish underwater. No chakra means no CES and so she's left flailing, having been taken out of her element element. That's assuming he doesn't outpace her in close quarters combat in base, which he very well could, seeing how he was capable of going head to head with Asuma and blocking one or two of Base Guy's attacks.

 

Kisame is a different matter altogether, Killer Bee almost lost to him and gai had to go near last gate to eliminate him. BUt where did this come from, where did I say she would be able to easily defeat Kisame?

 

Raikage is much too fast for her to react to. Moreover, he's one of the most resistant non-jinchuuriki characters in the series - couple that with his Raiton armour and Tsunade's punches will feel like just another heavyweight jab in the stomach, not that Tsunade is capable of reacting to him. Raikage is one of the few characters who can actually dodge Amaterasu. Against him, she will literally be ragdolled all over the battlefield, unable to react against the Raikage

 

Raikage is a stronger kage than her, taht goes without saying, I want to know where I stated she would be able to beat him, I consider her a low/mid kage tier level. Both Raikage and Kisame are on the high tier

Itachi's victory in CQC should go without saying. He outmanoeuvred Hebi Sasuke in taijutsu and held his own against Killer Bee of all people as an edo tensei zombie. I don't care how much you inflate Tsunade's so called "skills" in taijutsu, she's not on par with Bee who is second only to Guy in raw skill barring jinchuuriki amplification. That's not including his Sharingan and counterattacks which, if necessary, I will cite.

 

What the ...

Are you putting Tsunade against over the top enemies just because? Of course she would've lost to Killer Bee, taijutsu doesn't matter here, the guy is a jinchuuriki that can control his bijuu. 

 

So regardless of whatever distance there is between herself and the opponent, Tsunade is at a disadvantage. She believed that Part 1 Kabuto drugged up on soldier pills might be a superior ninja compared to her in her prime. That uppermost ceiling has a clearcut benchmark now, and it's fairly low since Base Kabuto is only A-rank in capability.

 

Oh yeah, put her at a close distance from some other character and let's see who is at disavantadge, she is at her best when fighting in close quarters, her abilities as a tank permit her to take damage and deal one far superior. 

However I never argued that Tsunade would win against any of these characters you keep spawning, I said she would be able to beat Hebi!Sasuke in battle, which in fact is the most probable outcome of such fight

 

I acknowledge that Tsunade's speed is decent for someone who doesn't specialise in speed, but how is she fast compared to high tier shinobi? Both Orchimaru and Kabuto were not hit once by any of her strikes until catching the latter off-guard as he was adjusting his glasses. She's almost attacked by Kabuto who quickly adjusted to his synapses being jumbled, and Jiraiya's group appears to stop him. She then charges headfirst once again but proceeds to fold under her phobia of blood before getting thrown back by Kabuto striking her. It takes some time for her to overcome her phobia as we see that her pain threshold is very high when exposed to the proper emotional stimuli. She forces Orochimaru back, who wasn't expecting her to overcome the phobia. Then summoning happens, Katusuyu is almost eaten alive by Manda, Tsunade disappears then reappears out of nowhere to catch an unsuspecting Manda with Gamabunta's tanto, and finally she uses Orochimaru's conveniently wrapped tongue to propel him up to her position for a direct strike to the face that he was smiling off shortly afterward.

 

I'd say thanks to her speed and doging ability she would do relatively well against fast enemies like Hebi!Sasuke but would ultimately perish against super fast enemies like the Raikage for example

 

 

Fast forward hundreds of chapters later, Madara did nothing but haughtily stand in place awaiting her to reach him and strike his Susanoo when he could have easily dodged her. This is the same man who was blitzing an entire army of shinobi and required Gaara's sand to restrain him before defending himself seriously. So we know Madara has terrifying skill, acuity, and speed. Tsunade then proceeds to kick Susanoo in conjunction with the other Kages' attacks, punches a Mokuton clone, gets impaled, feints being unconscious to counterattack instead of utilising those super high-speed instantaneous reflexes, is challenged by five Mokuton clones, can later be seen punching one Susanoo with two blades in her abdomen (it should be noted that none of the other fighters had suffered such grievous damage to their body), coughs up blood and collapses from overexertion (as the Raikage was still fighting, by the way, who notes how sloppy her fighting was), amplifies Onoki's Jinton, and then knocks away some Katon projectiles before getting bifurcated off-screen.

 

That's how she fights, she is a tank, she tanks things, damage, etc because she has the creation rebirth to back her up

However that fight agaqinst Madara mostly every kage got their asses handed to them, it still showed how the CES is able to handle BIG internal damage due to her completely pierced midsection

This summarises her two fights against competent shinobi. Now tell me, what impressive feats out of all those combat scenarios should lead me to believe in this silly notion of her being "dynamic" and "fast"? Nothing, really. Because tanking and punching while landing surprise attacks on enemies who thought she was down is the extent of her combat expertise. I don't see any complex leg or arm movements, no impressive displays of avoidance, no diverse movesets. What is the extent of martial arts training? Does she know Karate or Aikido? What amazing taijutsu feats has Tsunade accomplished that would lead someone to believe that she's not just a brawler who knows how to kick on occasion? She confessed that Kabuto whom she may be superior to a hypothetical Tsunade in her prime. Being on-par with Kabuto during Part 1 is a good milestone, but he's nothing special come Part 2. All of the Akatsuki, with the possible exceptions of Zetsu and Hidan, are stronger than Base Kabuto, as is Hebi Sasuke.

 

You had to get her feats on screen (lol) ? What about the fact that she was one of the survivors during the second ninja war, that she was a notable ninja there, enough to be called a sannin?

Sasuke is a main character, of course his on screen feats are going to be more detailed and what not. It's the same thing with the third hokage, it was said he knew thousands of jutsu and as we saw in the Orochimaru fight even in his old age he was a good fighter, but he ultimately lost the fight...it as I said MC's are going to get more on-screen feats than anyone. That's why such comparision can't actually be made

 

And there you were again talking about complex styles ...really? As I said "complex" isn't part of her style. Super brute force is, its a style focused on dodging, looking for openings and applying maximun strenght in a punch, CES makes dodging irrelevant and permits the user to find opening more easily

 

 

Getting back to Tsunade, her one distinctive feature is Katsuyu, but that would be her slug ally fighting in her place.

 

Katsuyu is more of a heal support, she isn't attack oriented
 

She needed a preemptive analysis of Sasori's fighting tactics spanning from #265-270 when she finally began to grasp the movements of the Iron Sand on her own. The battle began in earnest during #265 until the last plunge in Sasori's heart during #274. That's over half of the battle playing second fiddle under Chiyo, not to mention the other moments where she needed assistance in later chapters following #270.

 

It still doesn't change the fact that Chiyo would lose without Sakura ( and vice-versa) 

You can try to cahnge this fact as much as you want but it won't change m8...

 

 

Every other time where she was confronted by an opponent or attack, except for Itachi's Katon and Base Kabuto's weapon barrage, she's been protected by the hands of others with more talent and reflexes than herself. Her combat tactics are more predictable than Tsunade's because it can be condensed down to her rushing her enemy, enemy is bound in place due to PIS, and she either lands a rudimentary punch with heavy power or she's damaged by a non-serious injury instead of carrying out the logical strategy which is tearing her body apart with more powerful abilities.

 

Now you are arguing about Sakura? Well she is inferior than Tsunade, in my opinion he never really managed to get to her sensei level, futhermore it didn't help that she didn't had any pre-existing feat and that she acted more as a support most of the time

Thanks to Kishi, the only time she truly shined was against Sasori

 

I've said this before and I will say it again - Sakura suffers from what's called deer-in-the-headlights syndrome. You place her in a spontaneous situation that can't be analysed by her for some prior amount of time that requires immediate reflexive talent and she's helpless to act. She doesn't give much confidence when her last actual taijutsu bout with another shinobi consisted of getting jumped kicked by Omoi the Chunin.

 

I agree, specially when it comes to Sasuke, she is inteliggent but only when she has a time to prepare against her enemy and this enemy isn't Sasuke

Frankly, her feats of CQC talent and dexterity are even weaker than Introduction arc Sasuke's who at least successfully caught a holding back Base Kakashi by surprise. Oh, and let's not forget his showmanship against the Demon Brothers. Sasuke's taijutsu and skillset was arguably Chunin tier far back as the Land of Waves arc.

 

Keyword "arguably", I don't think it was chuunin, maybe high gennin

Arguing  part 2 Sakura against early part 1 Sasuke? wtf, as I said she knows how oto dodge, her ability isn't that shaby and her strenght is monstruos, her only problem with that early part 1 Sasuke would be the fact that he is Sasuke and Sakura turns into a weak kitten near him
 

Yes, it was bloody, and thousands of others from different nationalities partook in it as well. It's too bad we can't use the 2nd ninja war for evidentiary feats on Tsunade's combat style. However, looking back over the chapter, there is some mild accomplishment to the moniker being granted to them. Jiraiya, Orochimaru, and Tsuande were the only survivors amongst a carnage of nameless fodder who opposed Hanzo. I suppose that's something, albeit it isn't much. Unfortunately, there's no other hints of additional qualifications for the title besides superiority over fodder.

 

On the contrary, the fact that she survived the bloody war shows she at least had some anilites to twarth enemies and hold herself on her own

LOL at calling "mild", it's quite a big one though in my opinion, a war is nothing to kid at 

The "Sannin" likely don't even have their current arsenals. Look at Jiraiya specifically, he has no frogs infused on his shoulders and it's unlikely that he would have SM back then. If he did, his performance should have improved considerably if three of Pain's paths could be defeated simultaneously. The last picture Jiraiya had of Tsunade before their reunion in the Search for Tsunade arc depicted her without the the seal, so it's highly likely that she didn't have her seal during that fight either. Whatever accomplishments she had off-screen are inadmissible because we didn't see them. You might as well be shooting in the dark, asserting how she's won because of these superb feats that were accomplished decades ago which Base Kabuto is comparable to.
 

Speculation over there, just because Jiraya's face lacked some characteristics doesn't mean he didn't had a part of his arsenal he most likely only didn't had SM, because SM is what caused his face to become kind of frog like

Once again trying to count off screen feats as inadmissable...this makes no sense, Tsunade isn't a MC she wont have the same feats as Naruto or Sasuke obviously. 

With the Byakugou? Yes, she might force a draw with Base Guy since his attacks are concussive based. But Guy is much faster and vastly more skilled than Tsunade - the most impressive taijutsu user ever seen, by Madara's admittance. It will be through a war of attrition that any draw is forced.

 

She would won against Base Guy (stronger hits), celovity isn't everything, Tsunade is a tankm not only she can take attacks she can also look for openings during them

However Guy with the gates is another story

Base Jiraiya? Doubtful. His speed outpaces Tsunade's by a whole tier and he has a plethora of jutsu that can kill or immobilise her. Kebari Senbon, his fastest jutsu, Wild Lion's Mane technique, it inflicts piercing damage all across the body and was powerful enough to mutilate a medium-sized summoning, and Yomi Numa. The latter she can't overpower through brute force alone since it's a submersible pit of chakra-infused mud that ensnared a path of Pain and a summoning. There's nothing to use for a stepping stone unless she chooses to summon Katsuyu which is quickly sunk as well (a feat that should be achievable for a healthy Jiraiya) and the no-summoning restriction is immediately removed for Jiraiya.

 

Base Jiraya almost died due to a punch by Tsunade
 

Kakashi has the advantage in speed, versatility, and skill. However, unless he mutilates her, plants a kunai into her skull as he did to several Sound shinobi, or can damage her body enough with Raikiri, she may win via war of attrition. Kakashi in Part 1 was largely out of practice. In Part 2, his chakra supply and jutsu arsenal has expanded to such a degree that he could take on partially transformed bijuu. The Raiton canine immobilises Tsunade, an advantage that Kakashi will not overlook by plunging a Raikiri into her cranium which he did attempt against God Realm.

 

Kakashi would win probably because he can affford to fight at long distance and would be able to use kamui
 

It's a mass of iron being thrown at you, not Obito's phasing ability. How did you pull intricacy from that? Sakura needed to analyse Sasori's finger movements because her inherent reaction skills weren't enough to dodge the attacks immediately as they were delivered.
 

It is still impressive

I have reread the battle, several times actually. In fact, the battle is open to me on another tab as we speak.

You refer to the battle as though it were a concerted effort where both fighters contributed equally, they didn't. Chiyo took on the majority of the work, and the lion's share of Sakura's efforts were only achievable through Chiyo steering her along. Destroying the Hiruko puppet and avoiding the senbon? Possible only through Chiyo controlling her body. Defending against the various other attacks released by the Kazekage puppet up until a certain point after the geometrical Iron Sand projectiles were being unleashed? Once again, only achievable because of Chiyo. The one hundred puppets? Sakura has three panels, literally just three panels comprised of her punching a a single toy when the White Puppets come to her aid as the claws of another one of Sasori's is arcing downward towards her back.

 

Fact remains Chiyo would die without Sakura, Sakura would die without Chiyo, simple as that

Chiyo herself compliments Sakura during that match

Over 55-60% of that battle was fought with Chiyo at the forefront until #670, protecting Sakura. The other 40% saw Sakura participating separately here and there, but with Chiyo still handling the majority of the legwork. Chiyo praised her analytic skills, complimenting Tsunade for her student. Then there was that comment about how she should be down after fighting for so long, followed up by some foreshadowing of her surpassing Tsunade that never truly paid off because of Kishi's incompetence as a writer.
 

I agree with that but Sakura still poved herself to be improtant as I said and quote

"Fact remains Chiyo would die without Sakura, Sakura would die without Chiyo, simple as that"

 

I agree that Sakura never surpassed Tsunade because of Kishi's incompetence

If KIshi for ecample gave Sakura some long range attacks it would be able to surpass her master

Different methodologies and circumstances. Kankuro fighting against Sasori with puppetry is the equivalent to a novice boxer using fisticuffs to overpower a heavyweight wrestler champion. Moreover, Sasori was not taking into account that Sakura could avoid the senbon due to Chiyo as well until the very last moment as her fist was coming down upon the Hiruko puppet.

 

I agree, just a proof that teamwork is best work

Comparing Chiyo to Kankuro was faulty to begin with. There's a vast gap in experience, talent, and weaponry you seemed to conveniently overlook.
 

I never really did that, I just said Sakura was able to defeat Hiruko while kankuro wasn't

 

Sasuke wasn't on his mind, neither was he even in the same country as Sakura when she needed to be pulled from the fire of the Mokuton barrage by Kakashi. She blunders whether he's present or not. And if she can't react to a sharp piece of wood that Hinata was repelling, how do you expect her to not be blitzed by Hebi Sasuke?

 

Sakura? But I was arguing Tsunade vs Hebi!Sasuke lol

Hinata has the byakugan, I'd say she has advantage on that

And her "paralysis moment" is at her worst when Sasuke is around and acting like an a-hole

 

It took place one month ago. Here's a link to the conversation, if you're curious...

http://www.narusaku....=55#entry795201

 

k
 

No, they won due to Sasori eventually turning suicidal. She outright admitted that he saw her last attack coming, but chose not to avoid it.

 

This doesn't take their (Sakura and Chiyo)  merits out of the figth

Just as a reminder, Sakura acknowledged Chiyo for being the one to win the battle, and Chiyo's following statement reinforces that it was her participation which was most important.

 

"Fact remains Chiyo would die without Sakura, Sakura would die without Chiyo, simple as that"

 

 

 

I will take on the rest later...

[Aizen-Sama]

Naruto and Sasuke should just abandon their kids and skip off in the sunset to marry eachother.

[FireFox]

You guys have to be kittening kidding me !!!  You're still going at it !?  . 

 

Nar I want what you guys are having that kitten must be good     .

Edited by NarutoFireFoxUzumaki, 08 May 2015 - 11:08 PM.

[Nar123]

 

 

Nar I want what you guys are having that kitten must be good     .

 

You're too weak for it padawan

 

[FireFox]

 

You're too weak for it padawan

 

I'm Yoda in here  .

 

[Nar123]

Answers in bold

 

CES = Creation Rebirth Seal

Low to mid Jonin tier is where Base Kabuto, Part 1 CS2 Sasuke, 1TK Naruto and Asuma stand. Sakura doesn't have what it takes to defeat any one of those men at her early Shippuden incarnation, and I'm inclined to believe that her taijutsu aptitude is even weaker if she couldn't react to a simple kick from Omoi. Even high Chunin tier may be too much since that's where I have the stronger members of the Sound 4 like Kidomaru at.
 

Yeah maybe it's too high for her

Now, I'd take 1TK!Naruto and CS!Part 1 Sasuke as mid jonin tier at least, I'd put Asuma there as well. Kabuto, I'd put it on the low jonin level and Sakura on the high chuunin, I'd put Sakura only as low jonin level only with certain preparations and plans for the type of the oponent before the fight since we already estabilished she is not that much of a fast thinker

 

Let's leave it at high Jonin since Byakugou Sakura has mostly stamina feats with only two feats pertaining to strength. Decapitation, mutilation, and disembowelment are effective strategies to disabling/killing her.

 

The problem is those things hitting  a clean cut and going thorugh her constant generation, I'd put Byakugou Sakura as high jonin tier, reaching low kage level with proper planning and preparation against the opponent

Where did you arrive at that conclusion? She never had a full-fledged battle after Sasori. In fact, the next time she throws a punch against a human opponent was Karui (not counting when she punched Sai), and she failed spectacularly when Omoi promptly kicked her away. Following the Kumo Chunin, she dodges a disguised Zetsu fodder in conjunction with a back elbow attack, and afterwards needed Kakashi to rescue her from the Mokuton barrage. She accomplishes little else in-battle aside from dodging an acid spill that was falling at the speed of gravitational acceleration, 9.81 m/s. And before you cite her breaking Kaguya's horn, we're discussing other statistical facets besides strength.

 

Just look at how she acts regarding Sasuke. Before her battle against Karui what happened? She got the revelation that Sasuke was branded as a criminal and targeted to death

The panel with her escaping there is just plain old Kishi not handling Sakura's character well, if anything she should be able to evade that fine

 

Though what's your point? Sakura's weak will is mainly present during the times she's with Sasuke and he is acting like an a-hole which damages her already pathetic self esteem and makes her look like a lost kitten

 

 

Nothing gives the impression of Sakura being any more skilled of a fighter in later arc. She has additional chakra, auto-healing, and a stronger punch, but that's the extent of her progress.

 

Yep, she is still the same though she gets the CES  which is good enough to resist being pierced by the death spear thing of  Juubi!Madara

Her style isn't graceful or anything but it still can be useful. Your mistake Atheck is thinking that because a style only relies on brute strenght and counters it can't be effective, however it really can be. 

Sakura with the byakugou couldn't show this because the enemies she fought against were all too high level and most of the time she was delegated to support role however we have Tsunade that applies the same style in fair succesful manner of riding  off the susanoo army of Edo Madara

 
Not according to the manga that I used to read. He defeated Part 2 Gaara who carried a massive home field advantage with the added benefit of Ichibi protecting him. Or did you just skim over that bit of the manga? Deidara was in the middle rank of Akatsuki members, inferior only to Itachi, Obito, and Pain. Kisame and Kakuzu are debatable, but to imply that Zetsu and Hidan could defeat him? No other Zetsu except Spiral is going to challenge him in any substantial manner. Hidan is limited to his scythe. Remove his head and he's rendered completely helpless. Konan's only feats barring prep time, which she had against Tobi, amount to throwing a barrage of D-rank paper shuriken at Jiraiya that he avoided before failing to dodge his oil binding technique. Deidara's bombs are flammable so she's doesn't want to be caught in one.

 

Deidara is one of the weakest member of the Akatsuki along with Hidan, however Hidan still has the power of immortality which granted is kind of useless without Kakuzu since he still can be incapacitated. 

Deidara only beat Gaara due to his use of his C-4 which would bomb the sand without proper timely intervention by Gaara, however defending the city left Gaara open for a hidden attack

 

Deidara would lose to  Kakuzu, Kisame, Tobi, Itachi, Pein , Konan and maybe Spiral Zetsu 

He would probably beat Hidan and I'm not realy counting black and white zetsu since they were never that much of a fighter

 

Konan was the one who defeated Sasori and made him join thae Akatsuki according to the origin of akatsuki story made by Kishimoto for the Storm Revolution game, she is a monster with prep time and with her papers would probably out barrage Deidara's clay monsters

 

 

The electric properties of Raiton certainly played an integral role in Sasuke's strategy, as did his Sharingan in discerning where they were located, but there were still the issues of getting close to Deidara who was airborne, avoiding the bombs as they came, and tricking Deidara into believing that he was dead with genjutsu. Let's not overlook Sasuke tanking a huge explosion from an explosive missile with only a wing destroyed. He was so fast that Deidara admitted he couldn't keep up and needed to resort to his C2 dragon.

 

Just shows that even having most of the advantage Sasuke still had a lot of trouble to defeat Deidara.

 

However, I also acknowledge that this is strictly Base Hebi Sasuke, so the Curse Seal is off-limits. Sakura's fighting style is not complicated whatsoever like Deidara's. If he uses Raiton against her, it will be to immobilise or inflict bodily damage.

 

Sakura wouldn't even be fighting, she would be paralysed without  even the raiton help because that's how canon!Sakura acts with Sasuke, unfortunately
 

No questions here. It was a contrived way for an exhausted Sasuke to escape certain death.
 

At least we agree on this

Not unless Sasuke blitzes and damages her so badly with Kusanagi that she has no limbs or internal organs to speak of. If you want to push it, he decapitates her.

 

You're supposing the fight would end this fast and simple against  a kage level oponent huh? Wow, the other situation is more likely

CES activated --> dodges cuts ---> cuts that land are healed---> Sasuke leaves guard open ---> punch---> KO

 

Don't forget about Sasuke's Oral Rebirth ability. He can shed his skin should he somehow get attacked.

 

He would probably use his great snake escape to get the hell out of there, Hebi!Sasuke is not enough to take on Kage level
 

They really aren't. She has an impressive recovery ability that allows her to fight recklessly - as Madara put it when he confronted the bijuu with only Hashirama's Sage Mode available - but there's nothing truly different about her style of fighting. Her strength and tactics are the same as before. Byakugou doesn't grant any speed increases. She can bat away Katon projectiles, and that's the extent of the "newness" with Tsunade.

 

Just going to leave this here...

 

Likewise, Tsunade showed herself to be very nimble, being able to attack from various angles, even while in mid-air, to effectively pressure her opponents or keep up with faster allies to coordinate devastating attacks. As a field medical-nin, Tsunade is reputed to be highly skilled in the art of evasion; skills she deems necessary for field medics since their healing abilities would be pointless if they are unable to survive and be the last to die. These are skills and views she instilled in her own disciples, and were witnessed most notably during her scuffle with Naruto in Part I, where she displayed excellent dexterity and reflexes despite having consumed copious amounts of alcohol.

 

So as we see she is not only reckless strenght and self healing, there is more. She is also a quick thinker unlike Sakura, her skill in evasion is evident.

Having a limited moveset is not a problem if someone knows how to use well, Tsunade certainly knows how o use it

 

Konan is technically a war veteran as well. She was in the dirt and mud in one of the most inhospitable and impoverished countries on the continent. Alongside her teammates, she clawed her way up to the top in the original Akatsuki organisation. That doesn't make her superior to the likes of Itachi and Kisame, though, does it?

 

Konan didn't really fought in the war did she? However she was part of the Amegakure civil war, you can count that I suppose
 

Not counting his illness, you say? Hmm... I agree, Itachi would have won more easily than he did, but not without some difficulty in the process. Keep in mind- Sasuke didn't have CS2 fully active throughout the entire fight. In fact, the only times he used it were to break Tsukuyomi and when he was angry at Itachi for having survived Kirin. In that clash of fire attacks, I can see CS2 Sasuke stalemating healthy Itachi.
 

If Itachi WANTED to win and was healthy, Sasuke would've died in the first genjutsu or even before

Understand that Itachi fought that fight not once using all of his power, his edo tensei ressurection showed this 

 

Three tomoe Sharingan is enough against most opponents. Sakura is outclassed completely and Tsunade would have the struggle of her life, and that's under the assumption Itachi doesn't cut off her head while trapped in a genjutsu.

 

Every ninja and their mother knows that you can't fight looking at the sharingan in the eye if you don't have one, m8. there are other forms to predict the sharingan user movement. I don't doubt experienved ninja like Tsunade would be able to pull that off
 

Gladly...

Try comparing the writing characters in the second from the left row within the largest speech bubble against the Kanji used for Rokkankin below.

 

 

Yeah I saw
 

Orochimaru lascerated her shoulder region with a sword slice. It's not made specifically clear if it penetrated all of the way through to the bone.

 

It's obvious that it went through the shoulder blade it was a very deep cut
 

Those blades were wedged deep inside of Tsunade's body they must have been acting like a pseudo-tourniquet/body cast, preventing her blood and organs from spilling out onto the ground. Your assertion that she was kept in tact through Byakugou would mean that she either regenerated her organs in their usual place, which would entail forcing out those blades occupying that region of her body, or Tsunade's entire biologic layout can shift at the drop of a hat so that her intestines and kidneys are all bunched up together either where her stomach or the uterus is, depending on whether they shifted upwards or downwards. If that were the case, I would consider Tsunade to be a scientific anomaly. How is that possible? I guess Byakugou is just so amazing it can literally rearrange the human body's innards without any negative repercussions at all, and that's not even in the job description.

 

 

The CES is constant regeneration, here

The most extreme example of her medical prowess is her Creation Rebirth, a technique that makes use of the massive amounts of chakra stored in her Strength of a Hundred Seal to continuously create new cells in her body, healing any wound and even growing back missing organs. It gives her a form of "immortality" in battle that even Orochimaru expressed envy for. However, as cells can only divide and be created a set amount of times, the technique shortens her life-span. Because of the risk associated with the technique, Tsunade only uses her regenerative techniques in extremely desperate situations. These techniques are considered to be the absolute pinnacle of medical ninjutsu, and Tsunade developed them under the resolution of protecting those dear to her. Indeed, Tsunade created an extension of the Creation Rebirth known as the Ninja Art Creation Rebirth — Strength of a Hundred Technique, which causes the seal to extend all the way down her body. While this technique is active, any wounds Tsunade receives will heal instantaneously, without the need to make hand seals or even a conscious effort.

 

You're trying to say someone is a scientific anomaly in Naruto? Man, really? In Naruto we have talking frogs,  immortal people, and someone who is able to bring an eyeball back from nothing

 

 

I think that scene was intended to demonstrate the extremes Obito would sink to for his cause, to instill fear into the Alliance, and make Naruto realise that he cannot save everyone. Various other characters have managed to continue going with similarly extreme physical trauma, at least for a while. For example, Zabuza was still standing and fighting Gato's men after his arms were rendered unusable and his back was brutalised with spears jutting out. He wasn't even a medical ninja. Tsunade had the benefit of an auto-restorative technique that stemmed the blow of blood and damage to her body.

 

If that scene was used to demonstrated something it doesnt matter, they were dead with almost the same type of wound Tsunade acquired during her fight against Madara, no normal ninja would resist that.

Zabuza survived to that onslaught due to plot armor, which it doesn't aplly to that specific situation in the war, what happened was simple, normal ninjas would've died with that swords pierced in their torso like that scene with the Juubi showed, Tsunade however didn't die because of CES
 

You see, the thing is, it's not as advanced or impressive as you make it out to be. Recall what I mentioned earlier about Tsunade healing a wound in Naruto's hand that penetrated clean through and out of the opisthenar region of the hand? Well, given the general positioning of the kunai, I would say it pierced through the metacarpal bones and the interossei muscles around the fingers. All damage inflicted there, that knife sized hole in Naruto's hand, was sealed and mended by a regular Mystical Palm technique. And having gone back over the chapter, I forgot about Kabuto's statement how he sapped the chakra in Naruto's heart and removed circulation of his blood to the heart. Again, all healed by Mystical Palm.

 

A Mystical palm is the use of a constant influx of chakra to heal something in a faster rate, be the wound internal or external. The CES heals every damage instantly without the use of handseals ans permits the user to be a tank character with the right traits, yeah, I guess you could day CES is the mystical palm elevated to a thousand of it's power and that's whymainly it should be possible to bring back lost organs and loimbs as long as the requirements are met

 

 

 

 

You extracted that drawback from Shizune, yes? Well here's the exact wording, "The number of times each human cell can multiply is limited. If she quickens the process, it only means she's shortening her own life."

 

Yep, exaggerated use of the CES = early death

Her specification of the "regenerative" process seems odd, don't you think? Multiply human cells? It gives the implication that a base of cells is required for the organ to be healed. After all, you can't multiply something by zero and receive anything but zero, can you? This leads me to conclude that you're prized organ and limb regeneration without already existent material still in-tact is impossible. Well, I don't believe Byakugou can turn a small fragment of a heart into a full one, but such limitations aren't the complete focal point of the conversation, anyway.

 

 

Creation Rebirth, a technique that makes use of the massive amounts of chakra stored in her Strength of a Hundred Seal to continuously create new cells in her body, healing any wound and even growing back missing organs. 

 

Without the heart, the user would die even before the byakugou would be able to do something, however it should heal damage and lascerations to that organ

Besides as I said, tissues of one organ can be encountered in other places of the body with the existence of such material and with chakra, the requrement for the restoration of some internal or external damage should be met

 

 

And theoretically, I could dispute that Kurenai is top tier in genjutsu and Hiruzen is more powerful than any other Kage in existence. Doesn't make the claims any more viable. If we adhered to your logic and took it to the extreme, Tsunade would be popping back into existence from a single cell à la the DBZ villain.

 

No you couldn't because it was already showed in the story that was not the case. In the story it was never showed that the CES cwould not be able to bring back limbs

Of course she wouldn't be able to come back like cell, the damage would be to great

 

Well, my point about the lack of any visible on-screen feats and hesitancy to spawn limbs for Naruto via Byakugou transference when it would be a much easier process still stands.

 

The "byakugou transference" doesn't work that way, it doesn't bring limbs back, it just shares the chakra for augmented moves

My point is that theoretically it would be possible to bring limbs back because it was stated and such is the nature of cell regenatration. We already saw that internal damage to organs could've been fully repaired
 

I'm surprised. Previously you were claiming that any limb or organ could grow back regardless of their physical state or quantity of cells. Now you've conceded that some baseline for the magic spawning technique to work is necessary. I suppose that's something. Oh, and charring that heart of hers until it's an incinerated husk would probably have the same effect.
 

IIt's implicit that it wouldn't happen without enough chakra, it's one of the basics of the CES technique, without chakra, no regeneration

 

That's another consensus reached about Byakugou's limitations. Counting bones, muscles, and organs, the human body would have to regenerate close to a thousand parts, or 100 trillion cells. Majin Buu and Cell are the only characters that come to mind who are capable of that, and they're not even human.
 

Well, yeah, it would be impossible to regenerate all of that with the CES because

1) not enough chakra

2) Sample issue would be lacking

 

She's going to die whether her heart or liver is stablised or not. Closing up an entry wound or some upper arm muscles is one thing, but essential organs need to be functioning for the human body to survive.

 

It's a constant regeneration, she would heal instantly as long as the heart or the brain isn't blown out of her body granting her immediate death she would e able to regenrate as long as there is tissue and chakra
 

Yes - because Sasuke's base speed is a whole tier above Tsunade's. Surprising Yamato and a CS2 user are more quantifiable than Tsunade rushing a casual Madara standing in place for several panels. She's going to be blitzed whether she likes it or not. We also can't overlook Sasuke's ability to transfer Raiton into his Katana, enhancing its cutting power. I wouldn't be surprised if he bifurcated her with one swipe, probably electrocuting her internal organs in the process due to the Raiton. Whatever jabs she attempts, as long as he dodges, he's safe, and Chidori Nagashi is always available to paralyse her.
 

Not really, Tsunade speed stat is 3.5 while Sasuke during the third databook (his hebi phase) is 4.5, however as I said speed isn't everything, there is also endurance ,strenght and evasion. Resisting and waiting for a moment with an open guard should be relatively easy with CES constantly fixing any kind of heavy damage 

 

She wouldn't really jab first ( her intelligence stat is higher than Sasuke's) , if Sasuke was foolish enough to try an attack in close quarters he would probably be obliterated by a counter punvh shortly after.

As I said before the smartest way to fight would be keeping distance

 

It's laughable , I mean do you really think Hebi!Sasuke would be able to defeat a Kage ter with just one move? Please...that's the same as saying Part 1 Sasuke could hold his own against Kakashi...oh wait...you said that too huh?

 

No, they're not really comparable to each other. Ban's entire stomach cavity was obliterated. There were no swords embedded in him off-screen. We actually saw the spear grind through his body and out his back. In Tsunade's condition, she was pierced off-screen and we can't tell what the exact condition of her innards are like. Should they be badly damaged? Definitely. Have they been reduced to a paltry state? Well, not if my explanation about the organs remaining in a decent enough condition inside of her body was accurate.

 

I have no doubt that Ban's healing factor is in a whole anotehr world however this situation ic comparable. Her organs and innards are all pierced by the sword , enitrely destroyed and without function, however CES is keeping her alive and when Tsunade takes the sword off it's not even pierced anymore

 

Creation Rebirth, a technique that makes use of the massive amounts of chakra stored in her Strength of a Hundred Seal to continuously create new cells in her body, healing any wound and even growing back missing organs. 

 
Is that all you can repeat is "theoretically"? We're not talking about theoreticals, notional, or untested. If there's no on-screen panels depicting her carrying out these extreme feats you keep giving her then it's inadmissible. You're not going to see hearts, or liver, or pancreas, or stomach materialisating itself from cells without already existent parts. Can injuries such as a perforated lung be restored? Yes. But creating large organ pieces and limbs from little material? No.
 

I can say theoretically because IN THEORY it would be possible but we were never actually shown the CES growing back limbs outside of that Juubi!Madara panel (which can be contested )

 

So no without we seeing if it can happen or it can't happen I will still maintain my instance that with enough chakra and sample tissue, growing back limbs would be possible, even if exhaustive.

 

We already saw internal innards growing back, give it a rest on this. I though we agreed the CES handles internal damage and we were talking about limbs growing back or not

 

Mending some damaged organs is not the question. The Mystical Palm has performed feats like like closing a gaping hole in bone, ligaments, and muscle in the hand. It also healed the entire epidermal layer of skin. I'm challenging the notion of internal organs that have been mutilated or damaged in any substantial manner being treatable.

 

It can, as it happened, two gigantic swords up  toTsunade's midsection (That would kill a normal ninja)  obviously obliterating her organs there,  repeatedly stab and impact wounds that would most likely deal grave damage without CES , Madara being completely trashed and destroyed by the Bijuus unrentless attack and then getting back uncasthed if not for the lack of some limbs to which he promptly glues back

 

Yeah I'd say we already saw sitautions were substantial damage was dealed and the CES took care of it 
 

This part doesn't require a separate rebuttal since you're just repeating yourself now.

"You extracted that drawback from Shizune, yes? Well here's the exact wording, "The number of times each human cell can multiply is limited. If she quickens the process, it only means she's shortening her own life."

Her specification of the "regenerative" process seems odd, don't you think? Multiply human cells? It gives the implication that a base of cells is required for the organ to be healed. After all, you can't multiply something by zero and receive anything but zero, can you? This leads me to conclude that you're prized organ and limb regeneration without already existent material still in-tact is impossible. Well, I don't believe Byakugou can turn a small fragment of a heart into a full one, but such limitations aren't the complete focal point of this portion of the conversation."

 

Okay then...

 

 

 

Creation Rebirth, a technique that makes use of the massive amounts of chakra stored in her Strength of a Hundred Seal to continuously create new cells in her body, healing any wound and even growing back missing organs. 

 

Without the heart, the user would die even before the byakugou would be able to do something, however it should heal damage and lascerations to that organ

Besides as I said, tissues of one organ can be encountered in other places of the body with the existence of such material and with chakra, the requrement for the restoration of some internal or external damage should be met

 

 

You do understand that sage chakra is created through the admixture natural energy with spiritual and physical energy, correct? Hashirama confessed to his chakra reserves being comparable with the Kyuubi's. It stands to reason that the resultant chakra amount would be made from equally large physical and spiritual energies. No matter how small the amount he extracted from Hashirama, Madara's senjutsu supply would be massive, greater than Naruto's most likely.

 

Tsunade's CES  doesn't really use sage chakra. It could be argued Madara CES like techinque during his juubi phase made an arm regrow because he had enough chakra

 

Human Madara chose to get Zetsu arms because even if he had a big chakra reserve, he still had 9 bijuus to fight and wouldn't waste part of his chakra on growing back limbs

 

 

So why is it that a single arm would exhaust so much chakra if it were possible to grow? Furthermore, Tsunade has had plenty of time to regather her strength between months after the war. An arm should be simple to "regenerate". There's no consequence to her using chakra since there's no conflict presently going on.

 

 

Growing back a single arm would put an incredible ammount of strain because CES works in microscopical level,  it would also take a lot of chakra to be relatively fast. Tsunade has a big chakra reserve but it most likely isn't enough to grow back an arm with ease like the way Juubi!Madra could accomplish while in his juubi form
 

Yes, and I recall telling you that what Madara did was not regeneration. He attached arm with all of its existing, presumably in-tact, blood vessels and innards to his body. Nothing was created from a basic tissue baseline.

 

Yeah and I already explained why this happened
 

It's established information in canonical sources, though. Just like Tsunade's magical perk enabling her to pop up limbs and internal organs.

I'll reiterate...

"Canon establishes no such thing anywhere. Tsunade's statement, and I quote, "It's a forbidden jutsu that only I know how to use." This might some to arrive at the conclusion that the technique was somehow manufactured by Tsunade. After all, she claims to be the only one who knows how to use it. Well the same could be said of various other techniques that had only one user at some point such as the Rasengan, Chidori/Raikiri, Shiki Fujin, Hiraishi (prior to Minato or his guards acquiring it).

Creation Rebirth/Byakugou is no sooner personal private technique of Tsunade's because of her immodesty and need to intimidate the enemy through claims of immortality than Hiraishin belonging to Minato prior to the discovery of other users like Tobirama.

Oh, and just for your information, the technical name of the seal is "Byakugō no In". It correlates to the relationship shared between it and Creation Rebirth/Byakugou, even before any techniques are unleashed. Which means that if Mito was aware of the name specifically, what would it mean to her? Is it just a distinctive sounding reservoir of chakra? I doubt it. The Uzumaki clan is renowned for possessing high vitality and long life expectancies. For any technique that's dependent on how great in size your life force is, being an Uzumaki would be of use. It's somewhat of a stretch, but it demonstrates how Mito is familiar with the name of the same ability the seal develops into."

 

Once again I will add, CES, the pinnacle of medical ninjustu was created by Tsunade based on canon. Mito had a byakugou seal, it serves to store chakra in a determined place, for what Mito usded the chakra? Override the kyuubi? Augment some of her techniques? It's never said, so it's speculation saying that CES was invented by MIto when in canon sources it was stated that it was created by Tsunade
 

"Maybe saw it recreating a limb" occurred no where within the manga, unless you can offer up proof that says otherwise. But the other suggested accomplishments like recreating tissue and heavy internal damage? I can't really dispute that. Reattaching limbs? That did not take place exactly, at least not in the manner which Madara replaced his lost appendage. The slugs, with Suigetsu's help, were carefully piecing together the two halves of Tsunade's body. What Madara did was quickly swipe off Zetsu's arm, then roughly attach it to his stump. Tsunade did not have her Byakugou active at the time. Katsuyu was funneling healing ability through to everyone.

 

Heavy internal damage/recreating tissue -- showed

reattaching limbs --showed

Growing limbs back -- not really showed, theoretically could happen if the requirements met

 

Tsunade was only live there due to her amaxing life force since her seal was over, the one doing the work of reattaching the limbs was Katsuyu, of course

 

Madara used 5 different Katon projectiles. The intensity of the flames wasn't established. Claiming that they would severely injure the Kages when Tsunade's arms were entirely burned is speculation.

 

Mei presented worry when she couldn't use her water jutsu in time, it's safe to say it would deal a lot of damage to the already battered kages if not for Tsunade's intervention

 

Byakugou doesn't instantaneously restore injuries, either. If that were so, the tissue and muscle in Tsunade's body would be remoulding itself constantly as she was stabbed or sliced. Some measure of time elapses before the injuries are restored. Madara's Katons would have already burned through skin and muscle if the temperature was severe enough.

 

 While this technique is active, any wounds Tsunade receives will heal instantaneously, without the need to make hand seals or even a conscious effort.

 

If it didn't heal instanteneously Tsunade would be dead in her fight against Madara or even in her fight against Orochimaru  in part 1 because it would take time to heal her punctured lung/heart

What happened in that scene was that the spped of the CES regeneration permitted that Tsunade could fight the Katon head on without further damage

 

 

 

He's a monster who's renowned for his durability? That wasn't even his face. It was the likeness of some random Grass Genin. A highly concentrated stream of fire was incapable of completely melting that away. How is this element's general technique set deemed impressive?
 

Please it's still Orochimaru inside 

 

You cited one of the few exceptions that was emitted from the most powerful Uchiha to ever live besides Sasuke. Of course, that isn't to say every Katon jutsu released by Madara is going to be extremely powerful. Gōka Mekkyaku's most significant advantage is the scope of the flames. Any single shinobi who can't release an equally wide and potent Suiton would be burned alive as the huge swathe of flames envelops them.

 

Katon's can be powerful enough as any other kind of elemental jutsu, it's just that there are the basic katons and the more advanced ones
 

Naruto's body was in a constant state of damage and restoration. The corrosivity of the shroud should have been gradually decreasing as the bijuu chakra amount was being suppressed. At a certain point, if only brief, there should no longer be a physical manifestation of the chakra, just the 0TK state which happens to carry healing abilities as well.
 

It took a long time to heal anyway even with Sakura's assistance

"Byakugou doesn't instantaneously restore injuries, either. If that were so, the tissue and muscle in Tsunade's body would be remoulding itself constantly as she was stabbed or sliced. Some measure of time elapses before the injuries are restored. Madara's Katons would have already burned through skin and muscle if the temperature was severe enough."

 

 While this technique is active, any wounds Tsunade receives will heal instantaneously, without the need to make hand seals or even a conscious effort.

 

If it didn't heal instanteneously Tsunade would be dead in her fight against Madara or even in her fight against Orochimaru  in part 1 because it would take time to heal her punctured lung/heart

What happened in that scene was that the spped of the CES regeneration permitted that Tsunade could fight the Katon head on without further damage

 

Adding onto my already given responce, it would be impossible for any attack to penetrate through the ligaments, skin, and muscle with a literal instant accelerated regeneration because of the tissue and material being replaced at the exact moment of impact. You would just be tearing away endlessly at human flesh that appears on the afflicted area.

 

Not really , we already saw what happened when Tsunade was pierced by two gigantic swords, it didn't really affected her, so somehow the CES was doing it's work,so much that when she took the swords off her skin was intect


We didn't actually see the degree of damage inflicted by those attacks. The Susanoo swords were wedged in place that would restrict any spillage. An exact quantity of tissue multiplication is unknown. But creating almost completely new organs from segments seems unlikely. She would have needed to mend the organs back together, otherwise Tsunade's body would clog with fragmented innards hanging uselessly.

 

We son't really know what happened inside of her but the effectd of having two gigantic shaprt things jammed inside of her aren't pretty, she is only alive now thanks to CES

 

Creation Rebirth, a technique that makes use of the massive amounts of chakra stored in her Strength of a Hundred Seal to continuously create new cells in her body, healing any wound and even growing back missing organs

 

 

"Is that all you can repeat is "theoretically"? We're not talking about theoreticals, notional, or untested. If there's no on-screen panels depicting her carrying out these extreme feats you keep giving her then it's inadmissible. You're not going to see hearts, or liver, or pancreas, or stomach materialisating itself from cells without already existent parts. Can injuries such as a perforated lung be restored? Yes. But creating large organ pieces and limbs from little material? It's questionable at best."

 

 

I can say theoretically because IN THEORY it would be possible but we were never actually shown the CES growing back limbs outside of that Juubi!Madara panel (which can be contested )

 

So no without we seeing if it can happen or it can't happen I will still maintain my instance that with enough chakra and sample tissue, growing back limbs would be possible, even if exhaustive.

 

We already saw internal innards growing back, give it a rest on this. I though we agreed the CES handles internal damage and we were talking about limbs growing back or not

Madara doesn't have Byakugou. It's the equatable senjutsu Hashirama had that made the attachment of everything inside the arm to Madara's stump possible, you mean.

 

The CES is the pratically the same as one of Senju senjutsu techniques, Madara said so himself. So it's effects are comparable
 

Yes, that's true, it's just too bad Kishi didn't offer a diagnosis for their specific conditions. We have only speculatory comments about them being close to death to judge them by.

 

Not really for example, during Madara vs Bijuu. I think it's obvious his insides became all screwed up
 

I do hold Kishi responsible for not meeting up to expectations, in more ways than one. But I'm not going to cling onto comments with no substantial proof in the manga to justify the extremist hype.

 

Kishi failed in a lot of things, granted I'm not going to to cling onto nothing and try to nulify a technique just because I don't like or don't understand how it could happen
 

"Is that all you can repeat is "theoretically"? We're not talking about theoreticals, notional, or untested. If there's no on-screen panels depicting her carrying out these extreme feats you keep giving her then it's inadmissible. You're not going to see hearts, or liver, or pancreas, or stomach materialisating itself from cells without already existent parts. Can injuries such as a perforated lung be restored? Yes. But creating large organ pieces and limbs from little material? It's questionable at best."

 

I can say theoretically because IN THEORY it would be possible but we were never actually shown the CES growing back limbs outside of that Juubi!Madara panel (which can be contested )

 

So no without we seeing if it can happen or it can't happen I will still maintain my instance that with enough chakra and sample tissue, growing back limbs would be possible, even if exhaustive.

 

We already saw internal innards growing back, give it a rest on this. I though we agreed the CES handles internal damage and we were talking about limbs growing back or not

 

You parroting "theoretically" over and over is not going to stir it into existence. Katsuyu regenerating people is unproven, unsubstantiated, virtually baseless wishful thinking with nothing corroborating it besides Katsuyu knowing how to sync herself with the seal for remote healing.

 

When did I say Katsuyu  generated people? LOL 

I say theoretically because it could happen but it wasn't proven
 

Regrowing limbs has been contradicted various times by Tsuande opting for a more complicated forging of prosthetic arms via Hashirama cells and the sister ability not moulding a replacement limb once Madara's was severed. I don't know how much more contradictory it needs to be than that for you to understand that it's inapplicable in a fight against Madara. She's not going to sprout limbs or organs when there's nothing outright proving it with feats in the manga.

 

Tsunade opted for Hasirama cells limbs because

1) Disavantadge of the CES - shorten life span (Kinjutsu)

2) To bring back Naruto's limbs she would have to teach him teh CES which would bae quite diffivult and useless for him

3) Bring back limbs would technically cause a hard deal of chakra exhaustion

 

It was already showed that she could restore her internal innards just fine
 

"Is that all you can repeat is "theoretically"? We're not talking about theoreticals, notional, or untested. If there's no on-screen panels depicting her carrying out these extreme feats you keep giving her then it's inadmissible. You're not going to see hearts, or liver, or pancreas, or stomach materialisating itself from cells without already existent parts. Can injuries such as a perforated lung be restored? Yes. But creating large organ pieces and limbs from little material? It's questionable at best.

You parroting "theoretically" over and over is not going to stir it into existence. Katsuyu regenerating people is unproven, unsubstantiated, virtually baseless wishful thinking with nothing corroborating it besides Katsuyu knowing how to sync herself with the seal for remote healing."

 

I can say theoretically because IN THEORY it would be possible but we were never actually shown the CES growing back limbs outside of that Juubi!Madara panel (which can be contested )

 

So no without we seeing if it can happen or it can't happen I will still maintain my instance that with enough chakra and sample tissue, growing back limbs would be possible, even if exhaustive.

 

We already saw internal innards growing back, give it a rest on this. I though we agreed the CES handles internal damage and we were talking about limbs growing back or not

 

 

When did I say Katsuyu  generated people? LOL 

I say theoretically because it could happen but it wasn't proven
 

That makes probably over five times this segment of the conversation has needed to be commented on.

 

For me too, it seems yu don't understand what theoretically means


Since when does an auto-healing technique that operates without the need of conscious formulation by the user stop at the loss of a brain or heart? If it doesn't require mental thought, then any cuts or damage should be restored. Well, at least the cells that are resistant to oxygen deprivation should be able to replicate for a brief time, I think. That could very well be wrong and I would not want to test it.

 

The brain still cordinates it's just not counscious but subcounscious, a hard attack to the brain or the heart could prove to be fatal. However since even Orochimaru impressed envy of such technique I guess we can say it's awesome nevertheless

 
"Does rapid recreation of cells entail building from minimal material? Having read up more on the issue, the liver can restore itself with only a quarter of its tissue. But each organ is different. Things like cardiac cells have only a very limited form of regeneration from what I've read. Restoring organs like the heart from little material with an unsupportable basis has never been proven. A certain quantity of preserved organ tissue would be required for the healing process to pan out."

 

Not really

 

The most extreme example of her medical prowess is her Creation Rebirth, a technique that makes use of the massive amounts of chakra stored in her Strength of a Hundred Seal to continuously create new cells in her body, healing any wound and even growing back missing organs. It gives her a form of "immortality" in battle that even Orochimaru expressed envy for

AS I already stated multiple times, as long as there is a tissue sample and chakra, an organ and innards could be restored. The heart is a special case because it's ausency causes immediate failure of the human body

 

 

 

It's not wrong to demand evidence of these extreme feats as you continue repeating "theoretically" like it somehow gives validation to its use in the Hebi Sasuke vs Tsunade debate.

 

First, it wouldn't be easy for Sasuke to cut the limbs out of a Kage level kunoichi, second everytime I bring the theoretically possibility of limbs growing back I say the "if"

So your complaint has no foundation
 

Yes, I know, it's called the brawler/slugger boxing style.

"A brawler is a fighter who generally lacks finesse and footwork in the ring, but makes up for it through sheer punching power. Many brawlers tend to lack mobility, preferring a less mobile, more stable platform and have difficulty pursuing fighters who are fast on their feet. They may also have a tendency to ignore combination punching in favor of continuous beat-downs with one hand and by throwing slower, more powerful single punches (such as hooks and uppercuts). Their slowness and predictable punching pattern (single punches with obvious leads) often leaves them open to counter punches, so successful brawlers must be able to absorb substantial amounts of punishment."

 

No it's not only that, a typical  brawler doesn't have the nimbleness through evasion that Tsunade has, they also don't have an auto-regenration techinique 

Sasuke is perfectly capable of dodging their strikes while affecting their legwork and influencing the positioning of their opponents through his martial arts training. And both women don't have Raikage's durability - Tsunade was thrown back by Kabuto's punch - so they're going to feel it Sasuke attacks them.
 

Tsunade durabilty is still outstanding, specially with CES, Sasuke wouldn't be able to bring her down with a vouple of slashes & pierces and if he attacked up close he would eventually let himself open

 

It's more impressive form and technique than anything your puffed-up distorted interpretations of Sakura/Tsunade have displayed. Holding back or not, Kakashi wasn't expecting any Genin to be capable of occupying his time so much. The sheer fact that Sasuke could glance a bell with such a discrepancy between himself and Kakashi speaks volumes about how talented he was. I already referenced how he was outperforming against the Chunin Demon Brothers shortly afterwards.

 

It's still pathetic because you're trying to compare a high genin level Sasuke's taijutsu which was 2.5 to someone who's taijutsu is 5 ( Tsunade) or even Kakashi who was clearly holding back in the fight and just didn't expected Sasuke to have abilities too far beyond the typical academy student taijutsu 

Let me talk real here, the taijutsu style doesn't need to have flourish or amazing leg work acrobatics, a simple style based on force and counters can still be effective most of the times

 

Really? A taijutsu specialist who has dedicated the majority of his life to perfecting the form and power of Guy's martial arts style while stringently emphasising his speed outperforming a jack of all trades whose physical stats are tiers below his own? You don't say. Anyone else at the exams who wasn't Neji would have been overpowered in taijutsu by Lee as well.

 

Yeah   so much for your Sasuke's "incredible" taijutsu 

Your snide emoticons doesn't change the information.

 

But they are fun

 

 

He adopted Lee's incredible speed along with a variation of the Initial Lotus that he never used again after Yoroi. And what separates him from people like Sakura - who is literally a carbon copy of Tsunade in every shape and form for every arc in Part 2 -- unfortunately still couldn't surpass her master

 

- is that he still manages to hold onto distinct qualities like the Sharingan, Katons, and Chidori. Besides, Lee doesn't have ownership of high speed fighting styles. I'll grant that Sasuke learned it through Kakashi's copying of Lee's method, however, but any improvements made afterwards until MS were through his own efforts.

 

Of course he still had those distinct qualities, he's an uchiha, he copies things ( or used too before the whole copy aspect of the sharingan was forgotten) 

 

Orochimaru became intent on killing Tsunade after she made her allegiances clear. Every attack after the first impalement was made with the expressed wish of harming her.

 

And she would die if not for CES, though the first stab wasn't meant to kill her
 

It's not too complicated for Mystical Palm either. It's functionally similar to Byakugou - accelerated cellular and tissue division. See my above reference to Tsunade restoring the lost bone and muscle in Naruto's hand. Sakura was attempting to stop the bleeding of the impalement caused by Sasori's blade. He even made a mental note of how she was doing her best not only to stem the flow of blood, but heal the wound as well - and this was a significant injury that had pierced a fatal area, according to Sasori.

 

Well, I guess you can say the CES works as a ten thousand X Mystical palm working 100% on the entire body

 

 

"Recreating" limbs implies significant bone deprivation. How much are we talking about? A badly broken limb? Or something extreme like everything below the elbow hanging on a bloodied stem with veins spurting blood as the stem begins to grow itself a whole portion of the limb.

 

That's partly why THEORETICALLY ( ) it would take time to recreate a limb, there are a lot of different types of tissues there, bone tissue, muscle tissuel, the skin tissue, there is also the whole deal of the bone structure...a lot of chakra would be wasted) 
 

"I acknowledge that Tsunade's speed is decent for someone who doesn't specialise in speed, but how is she fast compared to high tier shinobi? Both Orchimaru and Kabuto were not hit once by any of her strikes until catching the latter off-guard as he was adjusting his glasses. She's almost attacked by Kabuto who quickly adjusted to his synapses being jumbled, and Jiraiya's group appears to stop him. She then charges headfirst once again but proceeds to fold under her phobia of blood before getting thrown back by Kabuto striking her. It takes some time for her to overcome her phobia as we see that her pain threshold is very high when exposed to the proper emotional stimuli. She forces Orochimaru back, who wasn't expecting her to overcome the phobia. Then summoning happens, Katusuy is almost eaten alive by Manda, Tsunade disappears then reappears out of nowhere to catch an unsuspecting Manda with Gamabunta's tanto, and finally she uses Orochimaru's conveniently wrapped tongue to propel him up to her position for a direct strike to the face that he was smiling off shortly afterward.

 

"I'd say thanks to her speed and doging ability she would do relatively well against fast enemies like Hebi!Sasuke but would ultimately perish against super fast enemies like the Raikage for example"

Fast forward hundreds of chapters later, Madara did nothing but haughtily stand in place awaiting her to reach him and strike his Susanoo when he could have easily dodged her. This is the same man who was blitzing an entire army of shinobi and required Gaara's sand to restrain him before defending himself seriously. So we know Madara has terrifying skill, acuity, and speed. Tsunade then proceeds to kick Susanoo in conjunction with the other Kages' attacks, punches a Mokuton clone, gets impaled, feints being unconscious to counterattack instead of utilising those super high-speed instantaneous reflexes that you have a knack for pulling out of thin air, is challenged by five Mokuton clones, can later be seen punching one Susanoo with two blades in her abdomen (it should be noted that none of the other fighters had suffered such grievous damage to their body), coughs up blood and collapses from overexertion (as the Raikage was still fighting, by the way, who notes how sloppy her fighting was), amplifies Onoki's Jinton, and then knocks away some Katon projectiles before getting bifurcated off-screen.

 

"That's how she fights, she is a tank, she tanks things, damage, etc because she has the creation rebirth to back her up

 

However that fight against Madara mostly every kage got their asses handed to them, it still showed how the CES is able to handle BIG internal damage due to her completely pierced midsection"

 

This summarises her two fights against competent shinobi. Now tell me, what impressive feats out of all those combat scenarios should lead me to believe in this silly notion of her being "dynamic" and "fast"? Nothing, really. Because tanking and punching while landing surprise attacks on enemies who thought she was down is the extent of her combat expertise. I don't see any complex leg or arm movements, no impressive displays of avoidance, no diverse movesets. What is the extent of martial arts training? Does she know Karate or Aikido? What amazing taijutsu feats has Tsunade accomplished that would lead someone to believe that she's not just a brawler who knows how to kick on occasion? She confessed that Kabuto whom she may be superior to a hypothetical Tsunade in her prime. Being on-par with Kabuto during Part 1 is a good milestone, but he's nothing special come Part 2. All of the Akatsuki, with the possible exceptions of Zetsu and Hidan, are stronger than Base Kabuto, as is Hebi Sasuke."

 

"You had to get her feats on screen (lol) ? What about the fact that she was one of the survivors during the second ninja war, that she was a notable ninja there, enough to be called a sannin?

Sasuke is a main character, of course his on screen feats are going to be more detailed and what not. It's the same thing with the third hokage, it was said he knew thousands of jutsu and as we saw in the Orochimaru fight even in his old age he was a good fighter, but he ultimately lost the fight...it as I said MC's are going to get more on-screen feats than anyone. That's why such comparision can't actually be made

 

And there you were again talking about complex styles ...really? As I said "complex" isn't part of her style. Super brute force is, its a style focused on dodging, looking for openings and applying maximun strenght in a punch, CES makes dodging irrelevant and permits the user to find opening more easily"

 

 

It's not the only factor, but speed is highly important when surviving against attacks and successfully landing them. Most notable S-rank shinobi have a speed listing of at least 4.

 

Speed isn't everything



I wouldn't rely too much on the events of Sakura vs Sasori for proof of reflexive skills when she spent the first five chapters analysing Sasori's finger movements before acting on her own. Her most impressive feat past the Iron Sand was hand-standing atop the cluster of puppet swords. Dodging fodder puppet swords after fighting them for a considerable amount of time, though? Eventually you're going to have to adapt in order to survive. Sasuke did so as he learned how to follow Haku's movements in the Ice Mirrors and dodge his senbon. They don't give much proof to the belief of her being fast enough to follow Sasuke, who has a 4.5 in speed.

 

The fact that she could analyse Sasori fingertips to determine her future movements is already incredible, so let us go also by the fact that Sakura is a relatively normal girl compared to "super eyes" Uchiha Sasuke and "demon inside of me" Naruto Uzumaki

You forget that Sasuke had the ability of his super eyes against Haku, Sakura just has her pretty nromal green eyes , she didn't even had her hax CES yet
 

Byakugan just allows you to see the tenketsu and chakra network of your opponent. It doesn't magnify your speed like senjutsu or the bijuu do.

 

Did you forgot?

Byakugan also gives the user an extended vision too, almost 360* of vision, with only one blank point
 

The evidence has been factored in already. None of it convinces me that Tsunade is capable of following Sasuke's movements when the relative movement feats of Sasuke are judged against Tsunade's. See my summary of Tsunade's combat feats above for the given panels of her fighting.
 

Tsunade's endurance, counters, CES and evasion would be able to stand against Hebi!Sasuke, he is faster only but speed isn't everything.

 

If speed won fights then Rock Lee would've beat Gaara, of course not trying to make a comparision to the hypothetical scenario of Tsunade vs Hebi!Sasuke, I'm just showing that fight as a proof that speed isn't everything

 

How is it what-ifs? I gave countless manga panels and statements attesting to Sasuke's superior quickness, acuity, and martial arts technique. It seems like you're the one who keeps spouting off "theoreticals" because the proof you have from the manga isn't sufficient to otherwise prove your claims.

 

It's what ifs, you go by ridiculos ideas that Hebi!Sasuke would be able to deal with Tsunade , a kage level kunoichi, with one sword swipe, while you tipically ignore how difficult would be to get a clean cut, CES, counters, endurance, strenght and only put's speed and supposed and unreliable on-screen feats as proofs, which is tantamount to nothing.

The thing about the theory of vreating limbs is that when I put there in the simulation I always say it's "what if" because it's not confirmed or proven in the canon story even if it's supposed to be theoretically possible
 

"Does rapid recreation of cells entail building from minimal material? Having read up more on the issue, the liver can restore itself with only a quarter of its tissue. But each organ is different. Things like cardiac cells have only a very limited form of regeneration from what I've read. Restoring organs like the heart from little material with an unsupportable basis has never been proven. A certain quantity of preserved organ tissue would be required for the healing process to pan out."

 

 

"Not really

 

The most extreme example of her medical prowess is her Creation Rebirth, a technique that makes use of the massive amounts of chakra stored in her Strength of a Hundred Seal to continuously create new cells in her body, healing any wound and even growing back missing organs. It gives her a form of "immortality" in battle that even Orochimaru expressed envy for

AS I already stated multiple times, as long as there is a tissue sample and chakra, an organ and innards could be restored. The heart is a special case because it's ausency causes immediate failure of the human body"

Three times you've repeated yourself here and the answer remains the same.

"You extracted that drawback from Shizune, yes? Well here's the exact wording, "The number of times each human cell can multiply is limited. If she quickens the process, it only means she's shortening her own life."

Her specification of the "regenerative" process seems odd, don't you think? Multiply human cells? It gives the implication that a base of cells is required for the organ to be healed. After all, you can't multiply something by zero and receive anything but zero, can you? This leads me to conclude that you're prized organ and limb regeneration without already existent material still in-tact is impossible. Well, I don't believe Byakugou can turn a small fragment of a heart into a full one, but such limitations aren't the focal point of this portion of the conversation."

 

Yep, exaggerated use of the CES = early death
 

Creation Rebirth, a technique that makes use of the massive amounts of chakra stored in her Strength of a Hundred Seal to continuously create new cells in her body, healing any wound and even growing back missing organs. 

 

Without the heart, the user would die even before the byakugou would be able to do something, however it should heal damage and lascerations to that organ

 

Besides as I said, tissues of one organ can be encountered in other places of the body with the existence of such material and with chakra, the requrement for the restoration of some internal or external damage should be met

 

Rehash number 2 for this segment of your post...

"And theoretically, I could dispute that Kurenai is top tier in genjutsu and Hiruzen is more powerful than any other Kage in existence. Doesn't make the claims any more viable. If we adhered to your logic and took it to the extreme, Tsunade would be popping back into existence from a single cell à la the DBZ villain.

Well, my point about the lack of any visible on-screen feats and hesitancy to spawn limbs for Naruto via Byakugou transference when it would be a much easier process still stands."
 

No you couldn't because it was already showed in the story that was not the case. In the story it was never showed that the CES cwould not be able to bring back limbs

Of course she wouldn't be able to come back like cell, the damage would be to great

Acceleration doesn't equate to replicating cells that are biologically unreplicable like brain cells

 

Agree
 

Number two for this segment.

We didn't actually see the degree of damage inflicted by those attacks. The Susanoo swords were wedged in place that would restrict any spillage. An exact quantity of tissue multiplication is unknown. But creating almost completely new organs from segments seems unlikely. She would have needed to mend the organs back together, otherwise Tsunade's body would clog with fragmented innards hanging uselessly. This isn't taking into account the various subsections of the organs.
 

"Is that all you can repeat is "theoretically"? We're not talking about theoreticals, notional, or untested. If there's no on-screen panels depicting her carrying out these extreme feats you keep giving her then it's inadmissible. You're not going to see hearts, or liver, or pancreas, or stomach materialisating itself from cells without already existent parts. Can injuries such as a perforated lung be restored? Yes. But creating large organ pieces and limbs from little material? It's questionable at best."

 

 

I can say theoretically because IN THEORY it would be possible but we were never actually shown the CES growing back limbs outside of that Juubi!Madara panel (which can be contested )

 

So no without we seeing if it can happen or it can't happen I will still maintain my instance that with enough chakra and sample tissue, growing back limbs would be possible, even if exhaustive.

 

We already saw internal innards growing back, give it a rest on this. I though we agreed the CES handles internal damage and we were talking about limbs growing back or not

 

 

How is Deidara a "special case"? His arm was sown back onto his stump. Can you give any specific quotes confirming some unique restorative or mending ability that only Deidara has?

 

Key word, "sown". Madara's wasn't sown

Besides Deidara's body is already mutated due to his "center"

This is the first original statement you've given for several responces now. I think I'll just remove any further reiterations from the discussion now since they're been repeated several times now.

 

Hey, it's not my fault if you don't understand the meaning of the word theoretically and is bothered by it

 

 

Because the same questions and statements are being constantly brought up, and I feel that what I've gone into detail about previously already covers it. I'm intent on deleting any further rehashes made, however.
 

Yeah, I feel like that too. You repeat arguments so much even after I already explained and disproved them

Certain organs can't be replicated on a cellular level such as the brain and to a lesser extent the heart. To replace lost tissue material would require a certain amount as a baseline. It's not just one cell spawns an entire pancreas or bladder. Science, even if it's in a pseudo exaggerated form, is still being applied to the mechanics of that technique.

 

I agree, that's what I've been saying! However this baseline could be find anywhere in the body, some organs have the same kind of tissue

Byakugou and senjutsu both were cast aside for alternative prosthetics in spite of the easiness for those limbs to spawn back by your logic. Unless you can give clear-cut examples of those techniques regenerating limbs, don't continue to repeat this.

 

I already explained  why the prothestics are more viable

 

Tsunade opted for Hasirama cells limbs because

1) Disavantadge of the CES - shorten life span (Kinjutsu)

2) To bring back Naruto's limbs she would have to teach him teh CES which would bae quite diffivult and useless for him

3) Bring back limbs would technically cause a hard deal of chakra exhaustion

 

It was already showed that she could restore her internal innards just fine

 

Kaguya's power is entirely derived from the Shinju. The bijuu are a part of her, which means their own unique abilities would apply to her humanoid compressed form too. But everything that was invented afterwards like Hiraishin, Edo Tensei, and Rasengan shouldn't be inherently known to her unless she can copy them with her doujutsu.

 

That means she takes a part of natural energy too, I mean the senju came from her after all

 

 

This is Senju Hashirama's power - the man with reserves of chakra on level with the full Kyuubi - chakra should be no concern at all. And Tsunade had ample time to regain her strength. There's no conflict, no emergencies during the following months post-war... She's capable of quickly regaining her strength through eating food. Tsunade proved that by gaining back the full strength of her seal after exhausting it in the Pain arc. So tell me why it's necessary for her to needlessly safeguard chakra when there's nothing else going on at the time.

 

It should because he was fighting against 9 bijuu

The CES has its own disavantage and as I said it would be faster to foster a phrotestic arm than to wait for years of chakra to accumulate, there is also the fact that she would have to teach the Byakugou to Naruto, and Sasuke which still would be difficult. the form where she gives another person part of the CES is simple chakra transfer it doesn't give them CES abilities

 

I think the question you should be asking is why Naruto God mode didn't recreate arms from nothing for him and his friend
 

A generalised sound affect doesn't mean it's exclusive to Byakugou. Using this logic, the sizzling smoke effect from Byakugou should be a unique permutation, but it's not. The methdology and affects in Byakugou and Mystical Palm are the same.
 

Can you find another panel where the "SHHH" was used besides teh byakugou or any medical ninjustu?

Byakugou is like Mystical palm x ten thousand in steroids, covering your entire body, instant regenerating any wound in a hax like manner

I stand corrected here. Meteorology isn't exactly my strongest subject. Regardless, Kirin should still be achievable for Sasuke. He mentioned to Deidara how it was an option for him if the bombs couldn't be neutralised. Sasuke had no indirect assistance from surrounding infernos when battling Deidara so he must have felt confident enough that climatic conditions could be shifted enough by himself alone for Kirin. Why would he learn the technique in the first place if it was only circumstantially usable?

Maybe he was bluffing? Who knows

The explosions might have worked somehow for the Kirirn clouds to form, or the climate was already ready for it to happen
 

Why would he use snakes? They're easily killable. Sasuke dispatched with a medium sized one back in the Forest of Death with nothing but shuriken and kunai. All of them except Manda are fodder.

 

He could mount at the top of a snake and spam jutsus, close quarter is almost suicide for him

Neither one is going to land any attacks without first wearing Sasuke down. He'll have Kusanagi ran through their bodies before they can do anything. Mutilate their bodies, and if they're still alive, impale their brains. Any substantial damage caused to essential organs like the heart should kill them also. Even if he took a hit, you're overlooking the Oral Rebirth ability. With CS2, he should be able to at least block Tsunade's strikes. They resisted a massive explosive by Deidara's C2 dragon, after all.

 

Are you arguing for both Sakura and Tsunade?

In first place Sakura wouldn't do anything really, she would remain static because of her "lost kitten" syndrome. 

Sasuke attacks on Tsunade wouldn't do pretty much damage if CES was activated, her evasion is top notch so she would ba eble to dodge and look for opening while taking minimal attacks and regenerating from them. Sasuke would most likely tire first due to his lower endurance and then his moves wouldget more sloppy resulting in KO 

With Oral rebirth he can come back, but it won't change battle dynamics too much unless hegot smart and decided on relying in long distance fight, CS2 is fast,  has augmented jutsu power and flies...it should let him handle her better but he would still be vulnerable to counters if he chose to attack head on
 

I've gone into detail about Sasuke's feats, Tsunade's feats, and Sakura's, but you continue to mostly ignore them. It's time that you provide something instead of half-assing with single sentence comments about me being wrong.

 

Of course because relying on screen feats makes 0 sense, specially because Sasuke is a MC, he is going to have more on screen feats than anyone else sans Naruto.

So really your war of analysing makes no sense.

 

It's really as saying well Hebi!Sasuke has more on screen feats than Danzo so technically he would defeat him, with is not true, Sasuke just beat Danzo due to his new MS
 

No, but generally his opponents had some means to counter him.

 

Orochimaru? He was weakened from bodily resistance, but at full strength it's confirmed that he would have won.

 

Ok

 

Deidara? A combination of impressive speed and long range aerial combat that allowed him to be outside of range of practically every technique in Hebi Sasuke's arsenal.

 

Sasuke had amazing counters to Deidara too, yet still had a lot of problems

Itachi? Most of his stats, techniques, and feats were already greater than Sasuke's to begin with.

 

He could've beat Sasuke easilyif he so wanted

Killer Bee? Used an unorthodox fighting style that made it difficult to follow his movements with the Sharingan. He was also capable of channeling Raiton into his sword to counter Sasuke's and use his bijuu to dispel genjutsu.

 

Killer Bee was just too OP at the time

Raikage? Amazing durability, speed, and Raiton shroud. It also helps that Sasuke's MS abilities weren't fully developed.
 

IMO he would tie with the Raikage

Yes, because he was fighting them and their guards back-to-back with no rest in between. No character alive at that point could take on all five Kages simultaneously. Individually? Sasuke could probably handle Mei and Gaara is arguable, but all four there one after the other?

 

He still had his goons from team taka with him at the time to help, it's not like he was all alone

Judging Sasuke on account of him being in trouble against the Kages is hardly fair. It took someone of Madara's calibre to defeat them all.

 

TK!Sasuke mental stability was really low, if not for Tobi he would've been destroyed
 

 

 

*sigh*

Any feats to prove your claim besides linear heavy punches with little ability to shift their legwork and adjust themselves to Sasuke's dynamic style? I swear it's like your comments are becoming more and more single-minded with no evidence offered to clarify your stance.

 

linear heavy punches, lol Tsunade =/=Sakura

Tsunade's durability is also considered to be one of her most remarkable physical traits. This durability allowed her to survive the life-risking Heavenly Transfer Technique with only minor injuries in the process, something Mabui, the technique's user, deemed impossible for anyone but the Third Raikage.  She was also take an attack from a powerful Yasaka Magatama fired at close-range without getting damaged. A further testament to this trait was her ability to still move after having her arm, leg and intercostal muscles torn — something Kabuto noted was an impressive and praise-worthy feat no ordinary person could achieve.^[37]

While a medical-nin normally tries to avoid direct battle, Tsunade's taijutsu has been considered unsurpassed, which she uses mainly to intimidate her opponents from approaching her in order to carry out her primary duties as a medical-nin. When entering battle directly, she is a force to be reckoned with. In battle, Tsunade has displayed great speed, flexibility, and ferocity. She was able to incapacitate Shizune with a quick strike before the latter could react.^[38] In her battle with Kabuto Yakushi, she showed enough skill to evade his strikes and throw swift counter attacks, giving the younger shinobi very little time to react.^[39] Another testament to her speed, was her ability to get up off of her feet, appear behind Kabuto and then use the Body Pathway Derangement technique on him during the brief interval when he thought she had been incapacitated.^[40]. She could also throw herself at Orochimaru and deliver a powerful kick, knocking him backwards before he had any time to react, and even intercept Manda while he was mid-bite, using Gamabunta's sword no less.^[41] Before Mei or any of the other Five Kage could react, Tsunade intercepted all five of Madara's flame dragons dissipating them all with her fists in quick succession.^[42]

 

Likewise, Tsunade showed herself to be very nimble, being able to attack from various angles, even while in mid-air, to effectively pressure her opponents or keep up with faster allies to coordinate devastating attacks. As a field medical-nin, Tsunade is reputed to be highly skilled in the art of evasion; skills she deems necessary for field medics since their healing abilities would be pointless if they are unable to survive and be the last to die. These are skills and views she instilled in her own disciples, and were witnessed most notably during her scuffle with Naruto in Part I, where she displayed excellent dexterity and reflexes despite having consumed copious amounts of alcohol

 

This is pretty much what I've been saying this entire time ^,

yet you still  keep dismissing it and trying to pass Tsunade's style as something innefective and quicly conutered, which is not the case

 

 

 

Sasuke's mistakes in taijutsu have mostly been derived from underestimated his opponent.

 

Or from his lack of skill (Rock Lee fight) and tired condition

His speciality isn't even taijutsu anyway

 

Yes, and Katsuyu is only ever used for healing or when other boss-sized summonings have been released. This battle concerns Hebi Sasuke who was perfectly willing to use Kirin in three out of four of the notable fights/skirmishes that he was in, one of which he was at full strength.

 

Do we even know if that was Kirin he inteded to use against neo team 7, IMO it looks kind os a plot hole by Kishi.

There wasn't a single cloud in the sky, no thunder clouds and no fire jutsus used

 

I guess that was a plot hole or not inteded to be kirin at all

Is there a citation anywhere from Sasuke where he states that Kirin is only used when his chakra is low?

 

Not really, but he said it was his last resort

 http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Kirin

It's confirmed to travel faster than the speed of sound, more precisely a thousandth of a second. They're not dodging it no matter what and they're certainly not tanking something that can obliterate a mountain.

 

The issue is the preparation and the strenght of the movie is relatable to thunderclouds
 

Sasuke has the most amount of fights in the series except Naruto. His resume as a shinobi and ability list is one of the largest in the series. Check the wikia if you don't believe me. He's one of the few characters who uses all schools of combat, actively employs several different elements, and is capable of using kenjutsu. His strength is above average, about on-par with Base Naruto's. His CS2 durability allowed him to shrug off a 1TK strike from Naruto at VotE and survive CS2 with just one wing lost. Chakra reserves? Decent enough. They're average to maybe somewhat above average at this time due to Orochimaru's essence.

 

That's the problem of relying on "on-screen" feats

The point is - Sasuke knows how to make the best of what he has. I don't like his character personally, but I'm not going to deny his feats.
 

Neither I, it's just that I analyse further than just on screen feats

Can we please receive some evidence on how she intends to counter every single panel of taijutsu manoeuvre that's been accomplished by Sasuke?
 

She is good at evasion, futhermore CES can help her tank them.

If we didn't know with every attack , said person leaves herself openfor a counterattack, Tsunade would be able to hit some mean counters

 

The Kage Summit benchmark is one that only a scarce few could meet. No one besides a Juubi jichuuriki, KSM Naruto, EMS Sasuke (perfected Susnaoo), Hashirama, Madara,8th gate Guy, and possibly Edo Minato w/ Kurama is going to defeat them.
 

Does this change the fact that TK!Sasuke was pwned?

Answer: No

 

The strongest person in the world was a Genin up until the epilogue. Iruka is arguably inferior to the Rookies after the Chunin Exams, mostly due to lack of feats. Shikamaru was the only one promoted to Chunin in Part 1 despite a number of other characters being stronger than him. Hiruzen from Part 1 is defeatable to some of the Rookies in early Part 2 despite being officially Kage.

 

But he wasn't gennin level, wen I talk about "ranks" I mean them always  as "levels"

Official military rank doesn't matter in fights, it's feats that are important.
 

All feats though, not only on screen ones, and of course the abilities and teh characters characterization have to be brought upon too

I'm not seeing the agility part (refer to my account on Tsunade's battles for evidence) and the strength segment is pointless if you're unable to land the strikes, which considering her feats, is not going to happen against Hebi Sasuke for awhile until his stamina has been exhausted.

 

Tsunade has good evasion , more stamina/endurance, more strenght,  CES seal, frankly if Sasuke adopted close quarters he would've been done

 

Well, the "one-hit KO" aspect isn't entirely true, neither. Oral Rebirth should allow him to escape. Were CS2 on the table, his wings should be able to resist an attack.

 

Yep, I kind of agree but given the place of the movement and the surprise he could be defeated with a one hit KO
 

Tsunade was thrown back into the air by a punch from Base Kabuto. She's easily susceptible to Sasuke's kenjutsu or anything else tailor-made for cutting apart the enemy.

 

Tsunade was not on her full power and not on CES, she was also surprised by Kabuto's power who took a soldier pill, then she got the upper hand and he used blood to distract her
 

They only engaged in basic taijutsu twice, and the exchanges were very brief.

 

First time - they locked fists followed up by Sasuke attempting an upper kick from the side that prompted Naruto to back off. Massive clone spam ensues where Sasuke elegantly contends with at first before being kicked by several into the air, then he blocked the Naruto Rendan before it could be fully executed.

Second time at the Valley of the End - locking fists for a second time. Sasuke uses the momentum of gravity to descend while snatching weapons from Naruto's bag. Naruto extracts some of his own and they throw them simultaneously at each other, which causes a stalemate. But not before Sasuke lands a handstand kick on Naruto.

 

Eh, their exchange in the VoTE was pretty much matched...

Edited by Nar123, 09 May 2015 - 04:17 AM.

[luffyq1]

jfc will it ever end? 

[AHK]

jfc will it ever end? 

It's just like our love of Lord Obito, Teach, and Law:

Eternal

[Nar123]

Answers in bold

 

CES=Creation Rebirth seal

We're not talking about some generalised codified system. Each and every person is unique with their own distinctive skillset and physical attributes. You judge them based on their individual merits and accomplishments. 

 

No, you judge them based on their abilities, how they would match up wth each other, accomplishments (on and off screen) and general power level

Yamato was the only one who wasn't completely helpless against Sasuke. I said that he had a difficult time following him, not that Sasuke was completely untraceable to him.

 

Yamato had to protect Sakura that's why he was stabed so easily, that''s what I meant
 

The reconstruction of spinal cords happened. We don't understand what the specific damage caused to Tsunade's internal organs within her midsection was like, or if anything was spilled out. Reconstituting certain organs requires greater tissue amount than others, and as I specifically noted above, the healing elements in Naruto follows at least an exaggerated pseudo-form of real world science.

 

Well sure, two gigantic swords stapped her mid torso, of course everything s going to be fine right , please it's obcious that the CES was keeping her alive there

Not really, Naruto brought an eye back fomr nothing and he borught Guy back to life too that's not pseudo- form of real science
 

The benchmark is only achievable by the top tier characters. I don't begrudge a Sasuke who had yet to master his new abilities for coming up short against characters with unique abilities to counter his speed/Amaterasu. Tobirama, 2nd Mizukage, and arguably Obito without bijuu would fail in a bout against them.

 

Hebi!Sasuke would still lose against any of the Kage at the time, he just had a chance with Amaterasu and MS abilities
 

Tsunade wasn't active in any restorative state of being when those injuries were inflicted. Those wounds were still deep, and that was by a heavily weakened Orochimaru using the movement of his head to bring the blade down. Sasuke has use of his arms, and he can channel Raiton into the blade. He's at a much greater advantage.
 

Not really, you forgot CES, Tsunade's ecasion and durability, Saske attacking and missing leaves him open for a counter. Raiton in the sword isn't really that effective since Yamato could fight against it, a medic nin like Tsunade should be able to fight it even better

 

Blocking the hits? Yes, it's ill-advised to block, barring any intermission from CS2 wings or Oral Rebirth. Parrying and dodging while dealing sequential attacks with his arms and legs? That should be possible for Sasuke.

 

Tsunade would most likely evade them, it's her speciality
 

I have to agree here since Katon is generally ineffective.

 

Not really but because Tsunade would be able to brush off katon
 

Raiton is uniquely made for penetrative type damage, and Tsunade doesn't have Raikage's shroud or durability. Her organs and limbs are destructible by Sasuke's various Raiton jutsu like Chidori Spear, Chidori Katana, and regular Chidori.

 

Creation rebirth seal + evasion = counter
 

Kirin literally obliterated an entire mountain. Both Tsuande and her summoning would be killed in the blast. Katsuyu was originally outmanoeuvred by Manda in their only encounter during the manga. If she wins, it will be through using her acid to burn through Manda's body.
 

 

I believe Katsuyu should be able to survive or at least protec Tsunade, in any case is a stretch to say Sasuke would have the time to prepare Kirin

Sasuke wouldn't pick a fight with Kakashi or Tsunade, yet he goes into battle with Deidara and Itachi, fully aware that they're S-rank criminals with amazing power, the latter of which left Kakashi in a coma?

 

Sasuke's mission was to kill Itachi of course he would fight him or die trying no matter the power gap, see part 1 Sasuke.

Deidara was a member of the akatsuki that could have info on Itachi's location

 

However character wise Hebi!Sasuke wouldn't risk his luck by fighting Kage level oponents and his former sensei

 

 

 

You know what? I've spent the past 15 hours typing this rebuttal. This may seem hypocritical, but I'm not going to post a completely new counterargument for the same question that was brought up in a previous segment.

 

Wow, man that's harsh 

"The electric properties of Raiton certainly played an integral role in Sasuke's strategy, as did his Sharingan in discerning where they were located, but there were still the issues of getting close to Deidara who was airborne, avoiding the bombs as they came, and tricking Deidara into believing that he was dead with genjutsu. Let's not overlook Sasuke tanking a huge explosion from an explosive missile with only a wing destroyed. He was so fast that Deidara admitted he couldn't keep up and needed to resort to his C2 dragon."

 

And as I said Deidara still gave him trouble

 

 

 

This is the same debate question from before. I'll post my earlier retort for it.

"I agree, Itachi would have won more easily than he did, but not without some difficulty in the process. Keep in mind - Sasuke didn't have CS2 fully active throughout the entire fight. In fact, the only times he used it were to break Tsukuyomi and when he was angry at Itachi for having survived Kirin. In that clash of fire attacks, I can see CS2 Sasuke stalemating healthy Itachi."

 

Itachi would've beat Sasuke easily id he so wanted
 

Natural energy was stated to enhance all physical stats and jutsu power. Don't cherry-pick which attributes are enhanced over others because we know for certain what is amplified.

 

I wanted you to give this answer

"Sorry but it was said but not really shown, I mean what we saw from CS2 Sasuke was only heightened speed, augmented jutsus and flight, I doubt at the time Kishimto even thought of CS2 like part of natural energy since for example the sound 4 each kind of won power but at the same time lost something with the CS2 trasformation "

Do I sound like someone? Yes...

 

 

The one tailed chakra state was distributed to everyone in the Alliance, and Kakashi referenced to Shukaku that it was a 3x increase multiplied according his base. Itachi may be more skilled, but he's not 3x more superior than his brother.

 

I just said CS2 Sasuke had the same power as  1 TK kid! Naruto 
 

Can you elaborate? Because all I'm hearing are quips spawned from a prejudiced user who didn't completely think his responce through. Give specific reasons why you think shinobi in the lower spectrum such as Konan would win and don't try to assign your blanket standards of supremacy without having thoroughly examined Sasuke's opponent's general skillset.

 

Because he beat Deidara ( one of the weakest akatsuki) due to plot convenience and only escaped his death due to asspull, he would also lose to Itachi if Itachi was fighting seriously

The tier of Kage covers a wide array of characters ranging from Konan, Hirzuen and Tsunade in the lower bracket to middle tier like Kisame, Orochimaru and Kakuzu, followed by the high tier Kage characters like Obito and Pain.
 

I would put Kisame in the high tier at least

MS Sasuke was in a disadvantageous position from the get-go due to Raikage's defences, speed, and techniques being a near-perfect counter for Sasuke. He might have won against Mei were he at full strength. Give him the more advanced stages of Susanoo used on Danzo and he wins against Gaara and possibly Raikage depending on whether he can actually hit him.

 

MS! Sasuke was not at his peak mental stability AKA inteligence, I think he still would lose against the kages, but you have a point unlike Hebi!Sasuke, Taka!Sasuke can challenge them due to Amaterasu and Susanoo
 

All of those attributes are being factored in. There's no great method to equalise their screen time and it's obvious that Sasuke, as a deuteragonist, will be the more prominent character. That doesn't mean you can behind "theoreticals" in a match-up that's determined hard evidentiary proof from the characters' battles in-manga. No one expects Baki to have the same on-panel consideration as Naruto, but they still judge him on account of his feats and, for many, his stats.

 

Not really I just see you talking about on screen feats and etc, you don't take in account Tsunade's abilities, just Sasuke and assumes Tsunade would stay put as a doll 

You say stats, yet, you usually ignore them

If you want open verbal admission, Tsunade confessed that Part 1 Base Kabuto's senses and fighting ability may be greater than her own during her prime. No one has any better understanding of what Tsunade is capable of than herself, yet she felt impressed enough by Kabuto to cite him as a potential rival to her strongest incarnation. Sasuke was intimidating that same Kabuto during Part 1.

 

You're going to take Tsunade's words, then please take her words for her explanation from CES as well, t would be hypcritical of you to do so

As you say, Kabuto's abilites from his pre-Kabutomaru style were good for a medic nin but not exceptional as Tsunade's were, he just progressed after he acquired snake sage mode

 

 

It's proven in-manga that the Byakugou, at least the markings, are transferrable when Sakura was with Obito in the pocket dimensions. Conceptually, it should be similar to the Remote Healing technique, except with Byakugou level potency instead of Mystical Palm. If only the chakra was being transferred then the markings should have appeared on Onoki's person as well. A portion of his arms were still visible under the fishnet of his torn clothing

 

No, that thing the byakugou does is just chakra transfer to augment or charge techniques, though I'm sure healing could be added with the Mystical palms if necessary

But to rely on "hypotheticals" for evidence would be hypocritical, so this won't be argued.

 

Not really tbh
 

Naruto lost his marking, but he still has the partial energies of 8 bijuu at his disposal, not counting the Kyuubi since he's resting. The chakra of a clone was enough to partially fuel Obito's Kamui into Kaguya's realms. Power supply should no issue. If spawning limbs is so taxing that bijuu level chakra is incapable of restoring them it's a pointless ability.

 

Naruto would have o learn the byakugou ad then CES which is further  complicated by the fact that he isn't fit to be a medic nin at all

 

You should be asking why didn't he used his GOD MODE powers to bring his own arms back

 

 

I guess that's over...heh

[Atheck]

I'm not spending another 15 hours posting rebuttals, especially not with the difficulty it requires to make the individual quotes, save the responces to a writing document, double check each one, and then post them to multiple pages so that they don't override a spontaneous standard of quota depending on the page.

Consider this to be my concession by virtue of failed attrition.

[Nar123]

jfc will it ever end? 

 

I'm physically incapable of leaving an open discussion ....I need help 

 

 

I'm not spending another 15 hours posting rebuttals, especially not with the difficulty it requires to make the individual quotes, save the responces to a writing document, double check each one, and then post them to multiple pages so that they don't override a spontaneous standard of quota depending on the page.

Consider this to be my concession by virtue of failed attrition.

 

It's over, yay 

 

No resentment, we just have different POV's

Edited by Nar123, 09 May 2015 - 04:14 AM.

[AHK]

No, it can't stop! I just predicted it was eternal!!!

[Atheck]

It's over, yay 
 
No resentment, we just have different POV's

Oh believe me, every time I've posted in debates before I quiver from either apprehension or anger - not sure which. It's just an involuntary bodily responce. Part of me tries to be as respectful as possible, but the other half contains this irrational anger that just makes me want to slap my forehead.

Edited by Atheck, 09 May 2015 - 04:18 AM.

[Nar123]

Oh believe me, every time I've posted in debates before I quiver from either apprehension or anger - not sure which. It's just an involuntary bodily responce. Part of me tries to be as respectful as possible, but the other half contains this irrational anger that just makes me want to slap my forehead.

 

It's kind of the same with me

I had this problem in RL too some time ago, but I learned to let things go more there

[luffyq1]

It's just like our love of Lord Obito, Teach, and Law:

Eternal

don't push it.

[AHK]

don't push it.

[RyohkiFan]

No, it can't stop! I just predicted it was eternal!!!