31746 replies to this topic

[Nar123]

@Nar123

In terms of all that discussion...

With Sasuke and Itachi, even "Madara"/Obito told Sasuke in the aftermath that if Itachi was actually serious about killing him, then he could have done so instantly whenever he chose. That's how big the difference still was between them; that even with all the extra power Sasuke had and Itachi being on the verge of death from his illness and being 99% blind, Itachi was still able to easily keep pace with him, pushing him bit by bit until he was desperate enough for Orochimaru to emerge so Itachi could seal him and get rid of the Curse Seal.

And we also can't forget that Hebi!Sasuke still had to fall back on the Curse Seal LV2 against Deidara alone and even then, Sasuke still required that convenience and asspull just to barely escape and survive (and he still lost his wings), and Deidara is one of the weaker Akatsuki members when compared to the likes of Kakuzu, Kisame, Itachi, Nagato and such. The only one who is probably weaker is Hidan, but he has his immortality via Jashinism to make up for it all.

 

Pretty much

 

Sasuke's "victory"  against those two "S-ranked" is full of asspull and convenience

Edited by Nar123, 07 May 2015 - 10:56 AM.

[FireFox]

[BlackBird19]

Man that's a lot of typing for a discussion that pits a highly neglected character versus the most author favored character of the entire manga.

[Nar123]

Okay then...Answers in bold

 

 

My comment was in-reference to the seal, not the Byakugou technique which has only two confirmed users. However, the seal is interconnected with Sozo Saisei/Byakugou and it has no other benefits aside from chakra conservation. So while there may not be actual clarification for Mito knowing the technique, the possibility is not outright dismissed and it says nowhere that those healing abilities began with Tsunade.

 

Canon says Tsunade created the technique, the rest is speculation 

 

Care to provide some visual reference material? What was established in encyclopedic sources from ten years old won't necessarily carry the same accuracy when placed under scrutiny from more recent information. For example, Susanoo was referenced as being the resultant permutation for mastering Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu in the 3rd Databook, yet later information contravenes this supposed "fact" when Sasuke, Obito, and Madara are shown as knowing only one or neither of these abilities.

 

You mean if Kishi retconned the fact of Tsunade created the creation rebirth technique? No he still didn't do it. The Mito thing is  pure speculation, it's just confirmed that she had the strenght of a hundred seal and that is considered the pinnacle of chakra control derived from years storing chakra in a specific point however the only ones known to release the seal and use that for the creation rebirth technique are Sakura and Tsunade. 

 

It would be much easier to firmly place her in the low Kage tier bracket. When I think of mid Kage tier, my mind turns to characters such as Kisame, Raikage, and Itachi. Two of which are far more powerful and versatile compared to Tsunade.

 

I agree, though it depends quite a far in the oppponent fight style, if the oponent can fight at a distance I would put Tsunade at low Kage status if vlose combat is involved I would put her at mid Kage level

 

Her fighting tactics represent just the absolute minimum of what would be considered "viable" in combat and that's with her auto-healing ability counteracting the hazardous effects of attacks that don't outright mutilate her. In general, her strategy consists of hulking her way through attacks and landing a punch on unmoving enemies. Place her against an adversary with a fluid, versatile, and proficient fighting style who doesn't sit in place waiting for the woman to impale herself and she would be quickly overwhelmed.
 

I don't agree, you are understimating one of the sannin, Atheck and I think you are mistaking one of the Sakura vs fodder fights with Tsunade fight style, if you paid attention she is quite fast and dynamic even with her skillset. Agility coupled with super strenght and instant regeneration is still a pretty powerful blow dealer and tank, just wacth or read Madara vs the Kages where all of the kages play a pivotal part to defeat Madara Susanoo army though they still lose in the end 

About Sakura, yeah taking out the Sasori fight,  the impression someone can see from her fight style is what you described,  it would be bettter if Kishi applied  more diverse knowledge ( either physical or strategical  in her battle set) and didn't make her look so useless most of the times she is on scene

 

 

Historically, it was the leader of one of the smaller countries, Hanzo, that branded the three shinobi who opposed him with that moniker as recompense for allowing them to live. The connotations of the title holding significance in the circles of legends only came later, and it was mostly Jiraiya and Orochimaru who were regarded with such reverence and apprehension. The lion's share of Tsunade's acclaim comes from her contributions to the medical community and proficiency as a healer, not because she's an incredible fighter.

 

Not really, the seond ninja war was bloody, to simply brush that off as well that was just a moniker some random guy named Hanzo gave them is stupid

If Hanzo of the salamander gave them that nickname then you bet their actions in the war were pretty awesome, we managed to see a little of Hanzo's personality unfortunately thanks to the stupid idea of creating an edo tensei army, as you saw it's not a frivoulous personality

 

 

If you want to be technical, she was never the strongest shinobi in the village of Konoha during any year of her career - not with characters like Guy who could easily overcome her due to his vastly superior martial arts skill coupled with speed and the gates. This idea of sansukumi where each Sannin is as powerful as the next doesn't coincide with the feats displayed. The order of power would be something like this...

 

SM Jiraiya > Orochimaru > Base Jiraiya > Tsunade

 

I agree... but I would've added some changes to your chart

I think that Guy fighting seriously (without unleashing all out and dying) is mid-kage level at least, I think he would tie up with Tsunade since rule of close combat  as well as base Jiraya who almost died by Tsunade's hand at one point

Kakashi also got stronger than her after he developed the Kamui

 

Of course, but you're overlooking the circumstances which clearly depict Chiyo as being the one who fought the majority of the battle herself. Sakura's separate contributions without assistance can be summed down to her dodging some geometrical Iron Sand attacks, feinting the Kazekage puppet, barely rescuing Chiyo from propellers after being slashed in the midsection by Sasori, punching a single puppet before being rescued from a surprise attack by Chiyo, and then using Chiyo's sealing device to try and seal him. All of which could not have been possible without prior analysis.

 

You talk as if dodging that iron sand was easy LOL. Nevertheless that battle was a team effort, Chiyo wouldn't be able to win without Sakura and Sakura wouldn't be able to win without Chiyo. I advise you to read the battle again and to pay attention on Chiyo's praise of Sakura's fighting abilities

and analytical mind

It's also fair to say that both of them managed to defeat Sasori first puppet quite easily, unlike say...Kankuro

 

Do I really need to go into depth about Sakura's actual performance against this Akatsuki member again? This has been discussed already.
The conclusion reached was that Sakura would have been dead out of the starting gate because of her lack of experience and inability to react quickly in the heat of the moment. The latter weakness has been longstanding all throughout the manga and was represented several times during the manga.

 

I won't argue with that. Though I would say this weakness on the heat of the moment thing is mostly only present when she is near Sasuke unfortunately.

And I don't really know what "in depth discussion" you are talking about but Sakura and Chiyo both won fair and square against Sasori, S ranked, at the time, I would put her at least on low to mid jonin level anf after getting the byakugou/ creation rebirth combo on high jonin to low kage level

 

 

Sakura could become as versatile as Kakashi and it wouldn't change her performance unless she can overcome the inherent weaknesses to her psyche that make her hesitate in battle.

 

This inherent weakness is deeply associated to Sasuke, and I agree with this.

She could peform quite well in any battle where there is no Sasuke's involvement

 

 

Contrived escapes aside, Sasuke had outmatched and outsmarted Deidara leading up to that final suicidal attack of his. He had cornered an S-rank enemy through his careful analysis of the mechanics behind Deidara's techniques while expertly countering every single technique used against him

 

Not only Deidara is one of the weakest member of the Akatsuki but Sasuke also had the prior advantage of being able to foil his main and unique form of atack with his raiton technique, yet at the end if not for his asspull escape, Sasuke would've died

 

Frankly, I find it to ridiculous to compare Sasuke's feats compared against what Tsunade and Sakura displayed, arguing that it's comparable to every melee combination or weapon dexterity used by Sasuke. It's one thing to argue that they could succeed through a battle of attrition, but they are vastly inferior when the combat scenario involves skill and versatility.

 

Frankly I kind agree, but you think to logically about the battle, it's not always like that. For example one punch by Tsunade would probably be enough to KO or disable Hebi!Sasuke 

And we are talking about Hebi!Sasuke here aren't we, his feats are still below Tsunade, an experienced ninja war veteran.

 

No, this discussion relates strictly to Base Hebi Sasuke.

 

ok

Do you actually believe Tsunade or Sakura would have pressured Itachi as much like Sasuke? They would have been either killed during the genjutsu battle portion or, at best, they survive until Amaterasu where they're incinerated down to nothing because Itachi (sick) is still a force to be reckoned with and they don't have the speed or the abilities to counter it.

 

Itachi could've won that battle any time he want, Sasuke didn't pressured him, he let Sasuke win. Not counting his illness, etc

And also if anyone should fight Itachi someone with a bijuu or a sharingan would be the best option since they can counter the effects of the mangekyou
 

It's not speculation. Re-read the chapter. Tsunade makes specific reference to "Rokkankin", which is Romaji for "intercostal muscle".

 

Yeah I saw it


I don't know if you're being intentionally obstinate or if you're twisting around the time-frame of the manga because Sozo Saisei wasn't even introduced until after Kabuto was incapacitated and Orochimaru was attempting to kill Naruto. Please try and grasp this: Sozo Saisei was not used in battle against Kabuto. What she used was standard medical ninjutsu to heal the internal organ damage. There were no facial markings, no activation of the seal, and no creation of missing organs at the time when Tsunade was fighting him.

 

Yep, I'm sorry I mixed up somethings. I confused myself with what happened after Kabuto was hit by the Rasengan

 

The shoulder blades, otherwise known as Scapulae, are positioned in the region of the body where various muscles such as Trapezius Muscle are situated.
Now look at this diagram indicating where the Scapulae are situated and tell me if Kabuto damaged that specific area of Tsunade's body.
 

Not Kabuto, Orochimaru did with the Kunasagi  sword

 

Kabuto landed three attacks with the Chakra Scalpel. One each on a leg and arm then at the chest area which she later clarified was Rokkankin. The fact that she regained herself enough to counterattack Kabuto is a testament to her willpower coupled with her breasts lessening the severity of the damage. But large breasts are the only physical cushion unique to Tsunade. Willpower is acquired through environment and stimuli.

 

Okay then...I mixed up things on that fight

 

 

 

 

Yes, I'm perfectly aware of the differences between the two abilities. My reference to Mystical Palm stems from the fact that you continually bring up Creation Rebirth as though it held relevancy in the fight against Kabuto, which it did not. The technique came several chapters later after Orochimaru had severely damaged her.

 

Yes, I mixed up things
 

Her spine and internal organs were evidently still intact enough to hold together her body. It correlates to most of the organs such as the intestines, pancreas, stomach, and kidneys still remaining inside her midsection. Given the method of infliction, with the swords remaining inside her body, acting as a bulwark to hold those organs together, perhaps forcibly moved them around, no organs would have needed to be constructed.

 

She was still intact due to creation rebirth, a normal ninja wouldn't be able to survive that, as it was showed when Obito made the juubi attack with his spikes and killed a lot of people from the alliance

This essentially means that the cration rebirth kept Tsunade body from giving out and was constantly regenerating the torso wounds at the moment, given the position of the swords it's higly unlikely that it didn't pierce any organ, the fact that Tsunade was fine after that shows us thather organs were healed and reconstructed

Please reread the fight. Nowhere is Sozo Saisei or the seal referenced as she's fighting Kabuto. It's only brought up once Orochimaru sets his sights on killing Naruto.

 

I know, I mixed up things
 

Check #164 for verification. Tsunade specifies what was impacted by Kabuto's scalpel attack to her chest region. Here - I'll even go against my vow not to look at this manga ever again for you.
I'm beginning to think you don't understand the muscles that were referenced. Here is some information from http://www.innerbody.com/

 

"The intercostal muscles help move and make up the wall of the chest and are located between the ribs. These muscle groups include the external intercostal muscles and the internal intercostal muscles. The external intercostal muscles help increase thoracic size from front to back and side to side with contraction of the external intercostal muscles. These muscles help in inhalation-both forced and quiet. They lift the ribs as well as expand the thoracic cavity's transverse dimensions. The internal intercostal muscles help with expiration-the forced process. These muscles depress the ribs, making the thoracic cavity' transverse dimensions decrease."

Tsunade outright specifies which muscles have been damaged and she's exhibiting the symptoms of damaged intercostal muscles

 

yeah I see it now, I mixed up things from the Kabuto fight with the Orochimaru one
 

Chakra is what accelerates the healing process in the first place. And it's interesting how you would cite the exact process as being the recreation of tissue and cellular duplication when her exact quote was, "I can reconstruct any damaged parts and organs of my body."

 

Really ? It's a given if she is reconstructing organs then recreation of tissue is involved, if she is recreating tissue then celular regeneration/duplication is involved, it's really simple,chakra is just the raw material such process uses to happen

. It's even more obvious when one of the side effects of the creation rebirth is the reduction of life span, why? Because constant and immediate healing with cells regeneration wear up the body more

 

"Damaged" anatomical bits can be healed and reconstructed. But how can organs be "reconstructed" if they're completed destroyed, charred beyond salvaging, or removed? For that to be possible, she needs to literally recreate the entire organ from nothing, which does not fit the criterion of the jutsu. If the heart's removed from Tsunade's body, she can't heal it due to lack of cellular material.

 

Theoretically, as long as she has a sample of the tissue of the organ and chakra she would be able to do it, as such is the nature of cell regeneration 

However, if some organ was completely wiped out or if her neural system was affected hard enough then yeah, the creation reirth would be useless

If the heart was removed she would most likely die before she could do anything else   , she has amazing regeneration but she is still human unlike Naruto and Sasuke in God mode

 

Even so, I question the effectiveness of the technique if the damage happens to be severe and extensive. She's not like Cell who can literally regenerate his entire body from a single cell

 

Of course not, if the damage was that extensive the chakra wouldn't be able to handle the output for the regeneration and she would die by the damge or by chakra exhaustion

 
The image was broken. Check your source material. The seal was released in #169 against Orochimaru. Tsunade's fight with Kabuto pans out in #164 while extending into the beginning of #165 before she's too traumatised by blood to continue and Naruto takes up the fight. Kabuto and Tsunade never fought again. Her only medical jutsu used in #164 was Mystical Palm. Stop trying to distort the timeline of events.

 

Yep, once again I mixed it up
 

No, I think you're so caught up in this distorted notion that D comes after A that you're confusing when certain events took place and what specifically happened during said events. Your "evidence" can't even be seen, and I keep repeating to you that Tsunade never used any specific restorative jutsu against Kabuto, by himself with Orochimaru not involved, except for Mystical Palm to heal the damage inflicted to his internal organs.
 

I've already seen my mistake

 

 

Your evidence isn't showing up and it fails to meet the criteria of the discussion. If Sasuke removes Tsunade's limbs or internal organs, or severely damages them to the point where the material isn't even recognisable as human tissue, then even the boaster's logic is inapplicable because there's nothing to make limbs or organs from.

 

If the damage was HIGH enough then yes the regeneration  would probably help stabilize the wound but it wouldn't regrow because that would require too much chakra

 

The big question is.... would he be able to do it so easily? The constant regeneration would help a lot and probably heal most of Sasuke attacks if he was fighting in close distance until Tsunade inevitably attacked him with one of her enpowerd taijutsu move and shattered his bones

 

Ban's entire stomach cavity was destroyed. It wasn't a simple laceration through the intestines or a jumbling of organs. He literally recreated those organs when there was nothing left. By Tsunade's own logic, that's an impossibility for her technique since the organ itself needs to still be existent for recovery to begin.

 

Kind of the same situation where Tsunade had her torso completely  pieced, I wouldn't doubt one of her organs in her midsection was completely trashed 

And I keep sayint the same thing over and over again but theoretically it would be possible to reconstruct as long as there is a sample of tissue left, if the tissue that covers the stomach for example could be found in other place of th ebody then yes, with enough chakra it would be recreated

 

 

 

I'm going to repeat what was spoken above because I feel that's already covered this segment of the conversation.

"Chakra is what accelerates the healing process in the first place. And it's interesting how you would cite the exact process as being the recreation of tissue and cellular duplication when her exact quote was, "I can reconstruct any damaged parts and organs of my body."

"Damaged" anatomical bits can be healed and reconstructed. But how can organs be "reconstructed" if they're completed destroyed, charred beyond salvaging, or removed? For that to be possible, she needs to literally recreate the entire organ from nothing, which does not fit the criterion of the jutsu. If the heart's removed from Tsunade's body, she can't heal it due to lack of cellular material."

 

I will say the same thing then

 

Really ? It's a given if she is reconstructing organs then recreation of tissue is involved, if she is recreating tissue then celular regeneration/duplication is involved, it's really simple,chakra is just the raw material such process uses to happen. It's even more obvious when one of the side effects of the creation rebirth is the reduction of life span, why? Because constant and immediate healing with cells regeneration wear up the body more

 

Theoretically, as long as she has a sample of the tissue of the organ and chakra she would be able to do it, as such is the nature of cell regeneration 

However, if some organ was completely wiped out or if her neural system was affected hard enough then yeah, the creation reirth would be useless

 

If the heart was removed she would most likely die before she could do anything else   , she has amazing regeneration but she is still human unlike Naruto and Sasuke in God mode

 

 

Just to clarify, since Hashirama's senjutsu and Byakugou are practically interchangeable in terms of mechanics, the lack of a regrown arm despite having some time for the process to take place corroborates that neither one is some infallible ability that makes them Ban, Cell, or Majin Buu.

 

Yes, because they need chakra to do that, chakra is limited, overuse of chakra to regrow somethig would lead to exhaustion and death so yeah the creaton rebirth isn't like Majin buu, Cell or Ban abilities because it depends on a limited resource
 

They didn't grow them. They attached already existing appendages to their bodies - ligaments, blood vessels, and muscle were sown together. What Madara showed later on after "Night Guy" is what constitutes as regeneration in the practical sense - limbs being cut off and then replaced with new ones.
 

And I already argued about Madara and those "attachments" that happened

 

There's also canon information available that says Kurenai's genjutsu skills are on-par with Itachi's and that Hebi Sasuke has "godlike speed" which can't be matched. Both theories were eventually proven wrong in the manga. Oh, and let's not forget about Sasuke who Sakura "used to love" according to DB3, then Kishi contradicts his own encyclopedic material along with other tidbits in various interviews.

 

All of them retcons, that were changed after it, blame Kishi for it

however the fact that Tsunade created the creation rebirth is still undeniable, saying otherwise is pure speculation

Everything and anything spoken or asserted in this manga should be taken with a grain of salt until it's proven with feats.
 

Not really, but in any case

We saw the byakugou recreating tissue, and etc, healing heavy internal damage, reattaching limbs and we maybe saw it recreating  a limb too. So it wasn't really just hype as you tried to put

 

 

Those were basic animal shaped fire projectiles from a Madara who was in the process of disappearing. Sasuke used a similar ability, which was A-rank, by the way, to generate the rain clouds while catching Itachi's arm on-fire, which did little more than cause minor burns.

 

If Tsunade didn't take all of the hits ( it was a lot) the kages would heve sustained serious damages. Such is the power of the creationn rebirth that the burns didn't even affect her that much

 

Your claim about the katons causing grievous damage to the Kages is little more than unsupportable exaggerations. Flame techniques have largely been ineffective in Naruto. Orochimaru had a concentrated stream of fire burn his face alive and it did little more than melt it partially - no blood drawn, no disfigurement, nothing, and that was the face of some generic Grass ninja. The only potent fire based ability shown is Amaterasu.

 

C'mon, you know who Orochimaru is don't you? That guy is a monster, he can shed of his old body like a snake sheds off it's skin...

About your accounts of flame justus being useless...

 

http://www.mangaread...et/naruto/560/4

It only needed like dozens of water justu to stop it  ...

 

Check the listing of burn degrees on Google. Then compare it to what Tsunade suffered through. I don't care how effective her healing ability is, not even the bijuu's constant restoration perk couldn't recreate Naruto's epidermal skin layer as he was leaving the state.

 

The burns were caused by the bijuu chakra itself, of course the time to heal would be longer

Tsunade had help of the creation rebirth  ,  that's why the burns didn't look like it affected her that much

 

If that fire ability of Madara's was anything potent, it would have charred through her skin and muscle instead of leaving surface burns and minor stinging.
 

Not really, read "constant regeneration" 

 

Technically speaking, humans in real life "regenerate" cells and tissue, but we're incapable of sprouting new limbs or organs. Byakugou/Sozo Saisei is merely an acceleration of that process. Healing damaged organs and such is part of that process, not reconstituting new ones when they've been removed. "Theoretically" doesn't stand when the only instances where it could have been utilised failed in generating new limbs - instead both Madara and Tsunade opted for taking Zetsu material for prosthetics. It failed to live up to the hype under scrutiny and I have no reason to believe that it's anything more than an exaggeration like Kurenai's genjutsu skills or Hiruzen's "God of shinobi" moniker.
 

A huge acceleration

Well, we already saw recreating tissue for internal organs

The nature of cell regeneration says that it would be possible to bring limbs back with enough chakra as long as there is a sample of tissue to be used left but as we were never exactlyt shown that's why I say theoretically, well there is that Madara scene, one could argue thaat the bykaugou that made such restoration possible

 

Their bodies appeared to be completely in-tact. Unless the area that was bleeding had a large gaping wound where their kidneys and intestines were spilling out beneath their bodies, it's fairly safe to conclude that their injuries did not cause them disfigurement sans Tsunade.
 

It's possible for a organ to be damaged and destroyed from within and not all heavy injuries are apparent

 

You're still extracting outside material for the appendages. If Tsunade could sprout limbs with nothing but an active Byakugou then this stipulation of tissue material shouldn't be necessary.

 

Blame Kisimoto for never shwing us...however theoretically it would still be possible as Tsunade herself said it   

 

Katsuyu isn't a medical scientist in a proctored environment. She can't forge entire legs from a few cells, not even the self-professed user of the ability has boasted that level of extensive regeneration with little material (see the above quotes that cite Tsunade from #169).

 

Speculation. Granted it is speculation saying she would be able to forge new legs too however unlike your speculation mine is theoretically possible going by the nature of the byakugou
 

Here's the thing - you're relying on quotes that have no visual proof in the manga to substantiate it. I could stomp my feet in the ground and argue that because Kurenai was affirmed to be on-par Itachi in terms of genjutsu, she therefore is. But I would be wrong, especially in hindsight with Tsukuyomi and Izanami being introduced, both are inescapable without meeting certain conditions. And in a manga where established material can be totally invalidated, retconned, or written off as misinterpreted, contradictory facts can only discredit it from being true.

 

These things proved to be false due to Kishi's retcons, it's  not may fault, now Tsunade being able to regrow limbs was never confirmed or taken as false so it isn't "contradictory", even if theoreically with enough chakra she would be able to do it

 

It doesn't matter how you exaggerate Tsunade and Hashirama's healing abilities because their decision to use outside sources for limb restoration correlates to limitations on how much can be regenerated. I don't believe arms, legs, bladder, hearts, or brains can be spawned from Byakugou because there's no examples of this extreme regeneration taking place. Unless it was shown, I mostly take it as Tsunade putting herself up on a pedestal during the heat of the moment.

 

Without heart and / or brain said person would be dead in a matter of seconds, not much time to regenerate anything would it? 

It was shown that by recreating tissue, it would be possible for recreating organs

It was also wrong of you take the byakugou as a whole as "baseless hype"

 

 

Regardless of whether he underestimated him or not, for Sasuke to pressure Kakashi in such a manner speaks volumes about his competence in battle. The martial arts skill he displayed is more advanced than anything Tsunade or Sakura have shown which is important in a battle of taijutsu.

 

Sakura and Tsunade style of taijutsu is a type, its differetn from Sasuke but powerful nonethless relying on  pure strenght  rather than flourish

Seeing you trying to compare genin!Sasuke with holding back!Kakashi still makes me laugh   

 

Yeah, Sasuke surprised Kakashi because his taijutsu was above that of a bratty academy student, what a big feat   

Really, Kakashi was holding back there, mate. If you want to see Sasuke in a real battle of taijutsu just look at his fight with rock lee  , in fact Sasuke abandoned his styler in favour of Rock's Lee during the chuunin exam

 

Fortunately for Tsunade, Orochimaru's tactics seemed to involve idiotically cutting lacerations into her until she bleeds out instead of removing her limbs or decapitating her followed up by plunging the sword through her brain.

 

He didn't really want to kill her and  without the byakugou she would've died due to her pierced chest

 

Healing some deep cuts is nothing too complicated for jutsu of Sozo Saisei's calibre.

 

This and more. 

What I'd consider complicated would be recreating limbs, that would take a HUGE amount of chakra

 

 

Tsunade's speed is above average, at best. Hebi Sasuke was blitzing characters of statistically equal levels and higher casually with no Sharingan or Curse Mark.

 

He proabably wins in speed but Tsunade is fast on her own too, speed is not the only factor in fights,

Tsunade is also a master at dodging and if Sakura's behavior during the Sasori fight is any hint...

And look how much benefit that yielded. Sakura has admitted that she's incapable of making split-second decisions. Having fast reflexes is a necessity for someone with good evasive skills. She couldn't react to being thrusted into the lava dimension or having a barrage of Mokuton spikes falling down upon her - even Hinata was capable of reacting to them by some degree.

 

Hinata has the byakugan

Kishi frenquently forgets or doesn't care for Sakura, so much that her best point was during the first shippuden arc

Argument from ignorance - where an allegation is true because it can't be disproved.

We're not judging this fight based on "what-ifs" and "lack of 'exploration'" of her fighting abilities. Her feats are what we use to determine who is the superior fighter.

 

It's true because it was shown and evidenced. Tsunade created the medic ninn rule, dodge is part of the rules she made Sakura learn such abillity, etc.

The one judging the fight in "what ifs" is you

By what was given to us, Hebi!Sasuke would lose his power level is still not at the point where he can take on a Kage

 

You keep repeating that the Yin Seal was used in battle against Kabuto when it was only established in-manga several chapters afterwards. Just examine the previous pages depicting Tsunade during the Kabuto and Orochimaru fights respectively. I'm sorry, but you have you're head in the sand? Ignoring the fact that Tsunade specifies which organs were damaged, that Byakugou has little more than hype to justify itself is ridiculous.
 

Yep, I was mistaken 

 

Again, this is addressable with the above quote:

Chakra is what accelerates the healing process in the first place. And it's interesting how you would cite the exact process as being the recreation of tissue and cellular duplication when her exact quote was, "I can reconstruct any damaged parts and organs of my body."

"Damaged" anatomical bits can be healed and reconstructed. But how can organs be "reconstructed" if they're completed destroyed, charred beyond salvaging, or removed? For that to be possible, she needs to literally recreate the entire organ from nothing, which does not fit the criterion of the jutsu. If the heart's removed from Tsunade's body, she can't heal it due to lack of cellular material.
 

Again

 

"Really ? It's a given if she is reconstructing organs then recreation of tissue is involved, if she is recreating tissue then celular regeneration/duplication is involved, it's really simple,chakra is just the raw material such process uses to happen

. It's even more obvious when one of the side effects of the creation rebirth is the reduction of life span, why? Because constant and immediate healing with cells regeneration wear up the body more

 

Theoretically, as long as she has a sample of the tissue of the organ and chakra she would be able to do it, as such is the nature of cell regeneration 

However, if some organ was completely wiped out or if her neural system was affected hard enough then yeah, the creation reirth would be useless

 

If the heart was removed she would most likely die before she could do anything else   , she has amazing regeneration but she is still human unlike Naruto and Sasuke in God mode"

 

Technically speaking, humans in real life "regenerate" cells and tissue, but we're incapable of sprouting new limbs or organs. Byakugou/Sozo Saisei is merely an acceleration of that process. Healing damaged organs and such is part of that process, not reconstituting new ones when they've been removed. "Theoretically" doesn't stand when the only instances where it could have been utilised failed in generating new limbs - instead both Madara and Tsunade opted for taking Zetsu material for prosthetics. It failed to live up to the hype under scrutiny and I have no reason to believe that it's anything more than an exaggeration like Kurenai's genjutsu skills or Hiruzen's "God of shinobi" moniker.
 

Again...

"A huge acceleration

Well, we already saw recreating tissue for internal organs

The nature of cell regeneration says that it would be possible to bring limbs back with enough chakra as long as there is a sample of tissue to be used left but as we were never exactly shown that's why I say theoretically, well there is that Madara scene, one could argue thaat the bykaugou that made such restoration possible"

 

Reattaching limbs so that they're functioning properly and receiving circulation is nothing difficult. Deidara's was perfectly fine and all he appeared to do was sow it back onto his stump.

 

Deidara is a special case, he is not normal the same with Orochimaru for example

For yet another time...

Technically speaking, humans in real life "regenerate" cells and tissue, but we're incapable of sprouting new limbs or organs. Byakugou/Sozo Saisei is merely an acceleration of that process. Healing damaged organs and such is part of that process, not reconstituting new ones when they've been removed. "Theoretically" doesn't stand when the only instances where it could have been utilised failed in generating new limbs - instead both Madara and Tsunade opted for taking Zetsu material for prosthetics. It failed to live up to the hype under scrutiny and I have no reason to believe that it's anything more than an exaggeration like Kurenai's genjutsu skills or Hiruzen's "God of shinobi" moniker.

 

You're just copying and pasting everything 

 

"A huge acceleration

Well, we already saw recreating tissue for internal organs

The nature of cell regeneration says that it would be possible to bring limbs back with enough chakra as long as there is a sample of tissue to be used left but as we were never exactly shown that's why I say theoretically, well there is that Madara scene, one could argue thaat the bykaugou that made such restoration possible"

 

Also, I would recommend reading this article about the particulars of human "regeneration" and how it differs from things such as reptilian regeneration. http://news.discover...arts-130823.htm

 

The point of the byakugou/ creation rebirth is that it's the epitome of cell regenaration its not only "healing", as such it would be theoretically possible for limbs, internal organs, etc to grow back with enough chakra
 

I'm inclined to believe that it was derived from the Juubi. Kaguya's arm was torn off by Naruto and she managed to regrow it after returning to her humanoid state. Hashirama's regeneration did nothing of the sort, and Madara felt it necessary to take Zetsu's instead of regrowing his own.
 

Kaguya is a mix of everything, she is pratically a goddess

Growing again would wast a lot of chakra, it could be argued he did so as the juubi jinchuriki because he had a lot of chakra to be used.

The SFX used "Shhhh" is the same effect of the creaion rebirth activation

 

Really? So mass forest fires can emit enough heat into the atmosphere that rain clouds are generated above? Thank you for the scientific tidbit.

 

Yeah

 

 fire (1), updraft (2), strong gusty winds (3) (A) pyrocumulonimbus cloud.

 

"On the 18 of January 2003, a supercell thunderstorm formed from a pyrocumulonimbus cloud associated with a severe wildfire, during the 2003 Canberra bushfires in Canberra, Australia. The supercell resulted in a huge fire tornado, rated at EF2 on the fujita scale, the first confirmed violent fire tornado. The tornado and associated fire killed 4 people and injured 492."

 

 

And there's nothing to assume that Sasuke will continue using the same tactics once he realises they've been proven ineffective. He's not burdened by plot induced stupidity. Tsunade and Sakura both aren't fast enough to catch Sasuke off-guard. He was matching sick Itachi's handseal speed during their fight, a feat that should speak for itself considering how quick he normally is.

 

As I said if Sasuke was intelligent he would remain at distance and summon snakes, either way the regenaration of the creation rebirth and relenteless super powered attacks could prove to be too much for him, one mistake and he is dead

 

 

 

Are you magically assuming Tsunade would just stand there like a doll and let Sasuke chop her arms off? And no, if her limbs regenerated it wouldn't be so fast like that and t would drain her chakra reserves quite a lot. You are arguing about a one-sided fight LOL, Tsunade knows dodging, she wouldn just let Hebi!Sasuke's kusanagi hit her every time, even to throw point managing to chop of one of her limb; futhermore with the creation rebirth techinque she could receive a hit on purpose with the intention of leaving Hebi!Sasuke open for a counterattack.

Her limbs aren't going to reform, and she really doesn't have much choice given their relative speed and reaction feats. Or have you not been paying attention to what Sasuke accomplished in his Hebi state? I assume you just want to give Tsunade a fighting chance, no matter how baseless it may be.

 

The only one here wanting to give someone a fighting chance no matter how baseless it may be is you

Every fight isn't resolved with speed or diversity in the skillset, if that was how it was Sasuke would've won every single of his fights

In fact Taka!Sasuke ( who is stronger than Hebi!Sasuke) was still struggling to defeat the Kages during the Kage summit

 

Sasuke has the advantage in close quarters according to his taijutsu feats. Granted, it's somewhat ill-advised since he's running the risk of being hit.
 

No, In close quarters, Sasuke would've been decimated, one mistake, one open guard and a punch would be able to disable him

 

And it's also quite a waste to be moronically rehashing tried and failed abilities like they're being psychologically impeded by some unforeseen force like PIS.
 

Well, wren't you the one who used only "feats" ? Sasuke used the Kirin only onve and he specifically said he uses it when heis chakra is low and ha has no other method

It also isn't a sure fire kill attack
 


The feats speak for themselves. His speed, his versatility, his martial arts training, his reactive senses, his lethality...

 

So much wank, you're almost a second kishimoto. Sasuke is versatile but his endurance, strenght and chakra reserves aren't that much. As I said if he tried to bring the fight with Tsunade to close quarters he would've died, his only chance would be to stay at distance summon snakes, and attcking from there

You conveniently overlooked MS Sasuke not having unlocked all of his abilities yet. He was being challenged by the Kages and their guards in a gauntlet style royale with no rest in-between and his strongest techniques being conveniently unavailable at certain points like against the Tsuchikage.
 

Doesn't change that Taka!Sasuke is stronger than Hebi!SAsuke and was still pwned by the Kages
 

I'm sorry, do you have any credible evidence to prove that Tsunade can hold her own against someone who doesn't stand in place for her to attack?

 

...I'm sorry but are you trying to compare Part 1 Sasuke taijutsu to that of a Kage level ninja?

Those are just from Part 1 and I'm seeing better dexterity, greater attention given to the opponent's movements, and fluid legwork that allows Sasuke to follow into concurrent strikes than anything ever shown by Sakura or Tsunade who just go into "hulk mode" and punch anything in sight.
 
 Oh my god you are, Atheck, WTF is this...

Tsunade 's style is different than Sasuke's it's based on strenght and agility, and then on the ability to tank everything and surprise the opponent with a one-hit KO, even Naruto's brawler style was able to mach him at the end of part 1. 

 

 

Now we're delving into the realm of fantasy and purposeful misinformation. Offer up some evidence that the Kages, besides Raikage, Minato, Tobirama, or Hashirama, have worthwhile evasion feats or stop making fabrications to justify your stance. Not all of the Kages are renowned for their speed. Hiruzen is statistically equal with Part 2 Sakura.

 

The fact that Tsunade herself is the one that listed the rules of medic nin of which dodging and evasion were key components are not enough for you? Sotty but...are you stupid enought to think that Tsunade would list something like that without having ample knowledge of the subject?

 

Yamato could hardly follow Sasuke. His stats, if you want to include them, are inferior to Sasuke's, notably the speed feat, so he would be at disadvantage against even Base Sasuke.

 

Yamato had to save Sakura
 


This part of the conversation is going around in circles. The so called "regeneration" has no credible on-screen feats to prove it for reasons specified several times above. Tsunade's quote connotes to her needing the organ to be in good enough quality that it can be restored instead of spawning a new one.

 

Regeneration happened on screen but you keep brushing it off

Enough charkra (raw enerfy) ---> Ultra fast Celular regeneration/duplication-->ultra fast recreation of tissue---> recreation of organs---> supposedly recreation of limbs

 

 

"You conveniently overlooked MS Sasuke not having unlocked all of his abilities yet. He was being challenged by the Kages and their guards in a gauntlet style royale with no rest in-between and his strongest techniques being conveniently unavailable at certain points like against the Tsuchikage."

 

Taka!Sasuke >Hebi!Sasuke

TK!Sasuke was still pwned by the kages

Base Hebi Sauske still possesses his sword, Raiton ninjutsu, Katons, his incredible speed, his taijutsu power, summoning, and Kirin. He would give trouble to Kakashi and possibly Base Guy.

Sword wouldn't help that much if what Orochimaru did was any idea (constant regeneration), his taijutsu power ( , he would lose horribly if he tried to exchange blows), katons also wouldn't help, raitons? Maybe the kirin would be useful if he managed to use all of his power, besides if Tsunade survived he would be dead, summoning? Tsunade has that too, anf the snail beats the snake 

 

Hebi!Sasuke would lose to Kakashi, Guy in gate form and Tsunade (they're all kage level)

He wouldn't probably even pick fights with them anyway

You do understand that there's 6 chapters worth of fighting prior to the contrived "snake escape", yes? I would advise you to reread it because you seem to have a nasty habit of skipping straight ahead to the bits that reinforce your claim without factoring all of his movements and feats in earlier segments.

 

A fight in which he had plot help, and Deidara's own major weakness at his use. Yet Deidara still gave him trouble

Itachi was intent on pushing Sasuke into a corner while Sasuke was giving everything he had. He still needed to exert effort in the battle since he had been outmanoeuvred several times and was being pressured by his little brother.
 

Itachi could've killed Sasuke anywhere he wanted but no, he wanted to die and he was ill above all

Put healthy!Itachi with the intent to kill inthe fight and Sasuke is toast
 
 

It's natural energy compressed into a seal. All of the permutations of sage energy are available to Sasuke like strengthened jutsu, greater physical power, more resistant durability, heightened speed, ect.

 

More like heightened speed, flight and another variation of the chidori, I doubt it would change that much. It's kinda comparable with the one tailed fox form without super healing

 

Are you referring to Kages in rank or Kage tier? The former, he can bring down Tsunade, Mei, and Hiruzen. The latter? This includes a whole plethora of characters including some of the Jonin and most of the Akatsuki.

 

Hebi!Sasuke wouldn't be able to bring down anyone on Kage tier in a fair fight

Taka!Sasuke would've been able if he managed to hit Amaterasu and keep spamming it
 
 
I've made my arguments clear multiple times for you.

"Chakra is what accelerates the healing process in the first place. And it's interesting how you would cite the exact process as being the recreation of tissue and cellular duplication when her exact quote was, 'I can reconstruct any damaged parts and organs of my body.'

"Damaged" anatomical bits can be healed and reconstructed. But how can organs be "reconstructed" if they're completed destroyed, charred beyond salvaging, or removed? For that to be possible, she needs to literally recreate the entire organ from nothing, which does not fit the criterion of the jutsu. If the heart's removed from Tsunade's body, she can't heal it due to lack of cellular material.

Technically speaking, humans in real life "regenerate" cells and tissue, but we're incapable of sprouting new limbs or organs. Byakugou/Sozo Saisei is merely an acceleration of that process. Healing damaged organs and such is part of that process, not reconstituting new ones when they've been removed. "Theoretically" doesn't stand when the only instances where it could have been utilised failed in generating new limbs - instead both Madara and Tsunade opted for taking Zetsu material for prosthetics. It failed to live up to the hype under scrutiny and I have no reason to believe that it's anything more than an exaggeration like Kurenai's genjutsu skills or Hiruzen's "God of shinobi" moniker.

Also, I would recommend reading this article about the particulars of human "regeneration" and how it differs from things such as reptilian regeneration. http://news.discover...arts-130823.htm"
 
 I've made it too

 

 

"Really ? It's a given if she is reconstructing organs then recreation of tissue is involved, if she is recreating tissue then celular regeneration/duplication is involved, it's really simple,chakra is just the raw material such process uses to happen

. It's even more obvious when one of the side effects of the creation rebirth is the reduction of life span, why? Because constant and immediate healing with cells regeneration wear up the body more

 

Theoretically, as long as she has a sample of the tissue of the organ and chakra she would be able to do it, as such is the nature of cell regeneration 

However, if some organ was completely wiped out or if her neural system was affected hard enough then yeah, the creation reirth would be useless

If the heart was removed she would most likely die before she could do anything else   , she has amazing regeneration but she is still human unlike Naruto and Sasuke in God mod"

 

 

"A huge acceleration

Well, we already saw recreating tissue for internal organs

 

The nature of cell regeneration says that it would be possible to bring limbs back with enough chakra as long as there is a sample of tissue to be used left but as we were never exactly shown that's why I say theoretically, well there is that Madara scene, one could argue thaat the byakugou that made such restoration possible"

 

"The point of the byakugou/ creation rebirth is that it's the epitome of cell regenaration its not only "healing", as such it would be theoretically possible for limbs, internal organs, et to grow back with enough chakra"

It's a shame they're inapplicable in a hypothetical match-up determined by on-screen feats.

 

The problem with on screen feats is because of course MC are going to get expanded a lot and their fights will be priority, some other characters will even have their fights off-screen'ed, so it's unreliable as hell to match up characters by the feats and not by their given power level, abilities, techiniques and characterisitcs in a fight

 

 


Naruto is an Uzumaki, a clan renowned for its ridiculous vitality, why would exhausting a marginal portion of that massive pool be a concern for him? Tsunade has to perform research on constructing a prosthetic limb, get the materials from a Zetsu somehow, and then spend roughly a month or several to finish it instead of channeling this ability of hers through Naruto and having him regrow his own. How is that easier than placing your hands on them and allowing them to sprout a new arm easily within a very short time?

 

You're confusing yourself

For Naruto to be able to regrow his arm he would have to learn the byakugou itself, because while the byakugou user can heal and dispatch chakra to another person they can't implant the effects of the byakugou onto them, this would require Naruto  to work out a big capacity of chakra control for his enourmous chakra and would probably be useless for him since he already has healing effects from the kyuubi

And no matter Naruto's chakra capacity, I think if it happened the restoration would still leave him hanging near chakra exhaustion, however what begs the wuestion is that somehow he was able to bring Kakashi eye back, why didn't he used his god powers to bring his arms back?

 

 

 

Seriously, you have to stop with the Hebi!Sasuke wank... it's so intense almost funny 

Edited by Nar123, 08 May 2015 - 04:41 PM.

[Nar123]

Man that's a lot of typing for a discussion that pits a highly neglected character versus the most author favored character of the entire manga.

 

That's the problem of trying to compare "on-screen" feats

[Nostradamus]

The simple fact of the matter is that Sakura vs Sasuke will always end with Sasuke winning. Not because he's stronger or the better fighter. It's simply because of the writer's "love" for him, no matter how beaten Sasuke gets or how hopeless the situation is for him, he will end up "victorious". Sakura could be the next Byakugan princess and she still wouldn't be able to win against him.

[trang95]

Okay then...Answers in bold

Seriously, you have to stop with the Hebi!Sasuke wank... it's so intense almost funny 

Omg

EDIT: Even a pic XD

Edited by trang95, 07 May 2015 - 01:35 PM.

[tricksie]

man...Atheck and Nar123 - it's hard to keep up. but you guys seem to be doing it. normally I would ask for spoiler threads, but I think it would only complicate things. so, debate away!

[Nar123]

The simple fact of the matter is that Sakura vs Sasuke will always end with Sasuke winning. Not because he's stronger or the better fighter. It's simply because of the writer's "love" for him, no matter how beaten Sasuke gets or how hopeless the situation is for him, he will end up "victorious". Sakura could be the next Byakugan princess and she still wouldn't be able to win against him.

 

Our discussion is not even Sakura vs Sasuke, it's Tsunade vs Hebi!Sasuke

 

 

 

 

man...Atheck and Nar123 - it's hard to keep up. but you guys seem to be doing it. normally I would ask for spoiler threads, but I think it would only complicate things. so, debate away!

 

 

Roger o>

But eh that was my last reply...takes too much work

Edited by Nar123, 07 May 2015 - 01:37 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

 
Our discussion is not even Sakura vs Sasuke, it's Tsunade vs Hebi!Sasuke

I think the answer All characters > Women (including Kaguya). Hey, I thought it was Black Zetsu you know...

[Nostradamus]

 

Our discussion is not even Sakura vs Sasuke, it's Tsunade vs Hebi!Sasuke

Oops. Regardless what I said still applies Sasuke would still end up winning somehow.

Edited by Nostradamus, 07 May 2015 - 01:38 PM.

[Nar123]

Oops. Regardless what I said still applies Sasuke would still end up winning somehow.

He shouldn't

But he probably would, because Kishi's favoritism is strong

[Nostradamus]

He shouldn't

But he probably would, because Kishi's favoritism is strong

He shouldn't but hey Kishi's favorite little boy can't be denied of anything; even the main character's love.

[tricksie]

Roger o>

But eh that was my last reply...takes too much work

 

 

lol - with the effort that you guys were putting into it, I figured you'd both cover every topic pretty soon!!! :)

 

Even though the manga turned out to be such a disappointment in the end, it's surprising just how much there still is to debate about. I guess we can look back and enjoy the golden period — the beginning and into the pain arc, when there was so much put into building the Naruto mythology — before everything started to go down hill.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Time to cheer you up!

Anyone see the new episode?

[Narufan85]

 

 

lol - with the effort that you guys were putting into it, I figured you'd both cover every topic pretty soon!!! :)

 

Even though the manga turned out to be such a disappointment in the end, it's surprising just how much there still is to debate about. I guess we can look back and enjoy the golden period — the beginning and into the pain arc, when there was so much put into building the Naruto mythology — before everything started to go down hill.

 

That's because, for all his faults, Kishi built a great world. So many comparisons to JKR. Great world builders who let their story get away from them. JKR, at least, kept the spirit of her characters by the end while Kishi went entirely off the rails.

[WhyDoIWatch]

The simple fact of the matter is that Sakura vs Sasuke will always end with Sasuke winning. Not because he's stronger or the better fighter. It's simply because of the writer's "love" for him, no matter how beaten Sasuke gets or how hopeless the situation is for him, he will end up "victorious". Sakura could be the next Byakugan princess and she still wouldn't be able to win against him.

Well he is the better fighter, maybe she would stand a chance with Blind Sasuke after fighting Kakashi and VOTE Sasuke. Sakura is just Mid-Jonin Level TBH.

 

 

That's because, for all his faults, Kishi built a great world. So many comparisons to JKR. Great world builders who let their story get away from them. JKR, at least, kept the spirit of her characters by the end while Kishi went entirely off the rails.

The Naruto Verse and Clan was probably the biggest disappointment of Naruto, its so under-explored its saddening  

Edited by WhyDoIWatch, 08 May 2015 - 12:19 AM.

[Nar123]

 

Well he is the better fighter, maybe she would stand a chance with Blind Sasuke after fighting Kakashi and VOTE Sasuke. Sakura is just Mid-Jonin Level TBH.

 

 

The Naruto Verse and Clan was probably the biggest disappointment of Naruto, its so under-explored its saddening  

 

 

Kurapika on your sig   , he is the original and better Sasuke 

 

About Sakura vs Sasuke, well I think that she could have a  chance if she had the byakugou, didn't acted like a pathetic lost kitten near him, and Sasuke was in his Hebi phase

 

But yeah realistically speaking, she would lose because she simply can't think on her right mind near Sasuke for some stupid reason and Kishimoto never bothered to change it

Edited by Nar123, 08 May 2015 - 01:18 AM.

[LuckyChi7]

 

Sachiko is a cool name. ^_^ When I came up with Jiraiya Uzumaki, my first NS kid for my fanon, the idea was to honor one of Naruto's most important people, so I know Minato also came to mind, but I figured Jiraiya would be a fitting name. I also blame it a bit on Harry Potter with Harry and Ginny having a son named Albus Severus, with their naming Albus after Professors Dumbledore and Snape. Haruka was meant to sound close to how Sakura is as well as to have the feel of spring, like Sakura's surname of Haruno has Haru which means spring in English :3

 

Oh lol, Ria and I came with a little backstory when it comes to Sachiko Uzumaki,  would you guys like to know what that is?

[Yyubie]

 

Kurapika on your sig   , he is the original and better Sasuke 

 

About Sakura vs Sasuke, well I think that she could have a  chance if she had the byakugou, didn't acted like a pathetic lost kitten near him, and Sasuke was in his Hebi phase

 

But yeah realistically speaking, she would lose because she simply can't think on her right mind near Sasuke for some stupid reason and Kishimoto never bothered to change it

Sakura is alot smarter than sasuke, remember that written chunnin exam?. Both naruto and sasuke cant answer a single questions only sakura can [and without cheating]. Brain/Intelegent "ALWAYS" beat power and speed. If for some god knows why reason sakura vs sasuke happen, my bet is on sakura because she is smarter. She is good at chakra control she even manage to save narutos life with almost zero chakra[The CPR scene]. Yes sasuke is stronger than her by power and speed, but sasuke easly tired especialy when using susanoo and amaterasu, remember when sasuke and edo itachi team up to fight kabuto?. Without itachi sasuke SURELY died. Itachi is smart while sasuke underestimate kabuto and got both of them in trouble. Well thats what i think.