19964 replies to this topic

[Chatte]

Sooo, now that I am back which links are the correct ones?

[Sojobo]

Well, it's from the critic. I would wait for someone in here to translate. That said this person did read it and put it in a nutshell.

Article on SS


Yeah, I actually felt this way before, but now, I don't know. Something tells me that's what it is. I mean I wonder why there was no chart for Hinata back in DB 3.5. Even the recent event doesn't feel that lovely, just good equal term. I should just wait.

Thanks.
I saw on his profil that he speaks japanese with someone, so I believe his translation. (NaruSasu fan also)
Well yeah... it's negative for SasuSaku. xD

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Well, it's from the critic. I would wait for someone in here to translate. That said this person did read it and put it in a nutshell.

Article on SS

But if I'm not mistaken, it's about Sasuke telling Sakura that "She's annoying". Back at the beginning of Team 7, Sasuke said those words. But after numerous missions they had done together, those words have a different connotation, that he understood her love, but he's still breaking those bonds and leave them behind.

In other words, Sasuke knows that Sakura loves him but he answered back "You're annoying".

Well if we follow this explanation from the critic at least it explains why she's so attached to Sasuke's "thank you".

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 06 May 2013 - 11:52 AM.

[Dkey]

Hope we get some more information.


So the Encouragement and Love are themes or what do they mean?

[TouKen4Life3g]

Hope someone will translate the important parts of the books.


Thank goodness a real critic said that. But, still, I think it won't let some others to think about it. Either they won't know that a real critic said something like that, or they won't accept that there's at least a possibility that there's no love.

It does beg the question: are we blinded? I know it's one guy's pov but it something that a lot of us don't really place in. It's like it has to be love no matter what. In other words, are there people in here think this way? Is this what we supposed to think? I always saw it as a minor and not serious as we see it, but this book says it's below than me. So what gives? I don't know, I should wait for the manga to reach to the point NH is done.

Sooo, now that I am back which links are the correct ones?

Well, allow me to help.

Earth Scroll
Heaven Scroll

Hope we get some more information.


So the Encouragement and Love are themes or what do they mean?

They are themes. All NH stuff is in encouragement.

Edited by NaruSaku4Life3g, 06 May 2013 - 12:01 PM.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

It does beg the question: are we blinded? I know it's one guy's pov but it something that a lot of us don't really place in. It's like it has to be love no matter what. In other words, are there people in here think this way? Is this what we supposed to think? I always saw it as a minor and not serious as we see it, but this book says it's below than me. So what gives? I don't know, I should wait for the manga to reach to the point NH is done.





They are themes. All NH stuff is in encouragement.

I think following the critic logic 615 can also e put on encouragement but sadly there's no encouragement between Naruto and Sakura.
I see the part where it should be encouragement on the "Dream" part.
and the part where Sakura said she doesnt want to see Naruto's dream crushed on the "Love" part instead of "Dream".

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 06 May 2013 - 12:04 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

I think following the critic logic 615 can also e put on encouragement but sadly there's no encouragement between Naruto and Sakura.
I see the part where it should be encouragement on the "Dream" part.
and the part where Sakura said she doesnt want to see Naruto's dream crushed on the "Love" part instead of "Dream".

Yeah, that's why I want to know what they say in NS bond part. From what I can tell from the book, if it's categorized in whatever theme, then it's more of that level. To me, that's sad to hear NH. NH is about influence by another, making you want to work hard. So if NS is above that, which is love, that means it's more than a normal friendship. Well, I just wonder what's his two cents.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Yeah, that's why I want to know what they say in NS bond part. From what I can tell from the book, if it's categorized in whatever theme, then it's more of that level. To me, that's sad to hear NH. NH is about influence by another, making you want to work hard. So if NS is above that, which is love, that means it's more than a normal friendship. Well, I just wonder what's his two cents.

While ObiRin has Love, Encouragement, Darkness and Dream

[Inferno180]

Well if NH is just considered minimal and only as encouragement then wouldn't this also just mean that the stuff for NS now has just been dramatic suspense? I mean if Sakura is really holding onto the thankyou part and these are being said by critics, this can just be something to get a later revelation, I mean if Sakura has to let go, would something like Naruto telling her about his Sasuke disguise in chapter 3 be the thing that sets her away from him, seeing Sasuke never really did love her?

If anything, I'm convinced NaruSaku is about dramatic suspense for now given the events from the land of iron, chapter 540, and 615 (the minor panel).

[Dkey]

Well that's why I asked about themes. It's not a relationship but a theme analysis and from what you guys discussed he added NS and SS in the love theme and NH and probably other things in the Encouragement one. Thou I agree some relationships transcends one theme.

[TouKen4Life3g]

While ObiRin has Love, Encouragement, Darkness and Dream

Makes sense to me. Naruto is everything in one from his parallels minus darkness of course, though you could argue some moments, but depends on you. ObiRin makes sense with all of them. I mean after all, the fact his life changed because of her death says it all. For Naruto, you can argue that his life will be changed or not if Sakura dies, but the fact his character is first and foremost becoming Hokage, that's what we prioritize first.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Well if NH is just considered minimal and only as encouragement then wouldn't this also just mean that the stuff for NS now has just been dramatic suspense? I mean if Sakura is really holding onto the thankyou part and these are being said by critics, this can just be something to get a later revelation, I mean if Sakura has to let go, would something like Naruto telling her about his Sasuke disguise in chapter 3 be the thing that sets her away from him, seeing Sasuke never really did love her?

If anything, I'm convinced NaruSaku is about dramatic suspense for now given the events from the land of iron, chapter 540, and 615 (the minor panel).

Iw as going to respond but after seeing this again i'll just drop it, this scene is not even picked up not even by the critic itself, she holds on the thankyou not the bench or whatever.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 06 May 2013 - 12:49 PM.

[James S Cassidy]

I find these discussion most interesting, but I find some ideas a bit off though. Mostly because people assume love is such a simple thing. Yet I find it most complicated at times well. Ironically, because NS has so much drama is reason why it is the most convincing. Just like real life, NS relationship faces problems that real life relationships face everyday.

Love is such a simple yet complicated thing. It's complicated cause we make it complicated. It is stupid at times, but that's how it is. That's real life is. What you know is perfect is not what you think you deserve. In my own viewpoint, I got told stupid stuff too: "You can have any girl you want," yet whenever I am told this I always respond: "Then why can't I have you?" I never seem to get an answer from it.

It's not so easy to say "this is love," but "that isn't." What really you need to look for is what people do when they don't think. Who do they go to on an instinct. For Sakura, she goes to Naruto. We can label love on different degrees and such, but it is not always going to be that simple.

Dark, you mentioned that you find it stupid that this "undeserving" excuse is what plagues Naruto and Sakura. Funny enough, this is exactly how real life is sometimes. Two people who KNOW they are perfect for each other don't get together because they feel they are undeserving. This is when you should have friends come in and support the relationship, but they to don't do anything or even make it worse. This is why I am glad Sai stepped in. He is the one that took the initiative and the one who is most likely to bring them together in the end.

I wouldn't be surprised if Sai comes out in the end saying to Naruto and Sakura: "No one here is perfect. You can't expect to keep every promise, especially when life will throw curve balls from time to time. The most important part is that you care about each other and you're willing to do anything for each other. Isn't that enough proof? Doesn't that make you worthy enough?"

At least, that is how it might go.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

I find these discussion most interesting, but I find some ideas a bit off though. Mostly because people assume love is such a simple thing. Yet I find it most complicated at times well. Ironically, because NS has so much drama is reason why it is the most convincing. Just like real life, NS relationship faces problems that real life relationships face everyday.

Love is such a simple yet complicated thing. It's complicated cause we make it complicated. It is stupid at times, but that's how it is. That's real life is. What you know is perfect is not what you think you deserve. In my own viewpoint, I got told stupid stuff too: "You can have any girl you want," yet whenever I am told this I always respond: "Then why can't I have you?" I never seem to get an answer from it.

It's not so easy to say "this is love," but "that isn't." What really you need to look for is what people do when they don't think. Who do they go to on an instinct. For Sakura, she goes to Naruto. We can label love on different degrees and such, but it is not always going to be that simple.

Dark, you mentioned that you find it stupid that this "undeserving" excuse is what plagues Naruto and Sakura. Funny enough, this is exactly how real life is sometimes. Two people who KNOW they are perfect for each other don't get together because they feel they are undeserving. This is when you should have friends come in and support the relationship, but they to don't do anything or even make it worse. This is why I am glad Sai stepped in. He is the one that took the initiative and the one who is most likely to bring them together in the end.

I wouldn't be surprised if Sai comes out in the end saying to Naruto and Sakura: "No one here is perfect. You can't expect to keep every promise, especially when life will throw curve balls from time to time. The most important part is that you care about each other and you're willing to do anything for each other. Isn't that enough proof? Doesn't that make you worthy enough?"

At least, that is how it might go.

There's sai, i second to your opinion though but i just dont feel it fits in on NaruSaku relationship because it give a doublestandard for Sakura, because if she feels that she doesnt deserve Naruto why she doesnt apply this logic to Sasuke.
It's fits better to Sakura's thoughts about doing nothing for Naruto which Yamato already give that speech.

TO finish my thoughts it's like plot device, i felt that Kishimoto doesnt have anything to hold NaruSaku that is suddenly putting crap reasons for it to be on hold, this whole "does not deserve" is just one of them, there's no logic and also it is an stupid double standard.
Sakura still holds on the thankyou since Sasuke acknowledged her but i felt that what is missing is a rejection, i dont know but Sasuke already showed off on every way that he doesnt love her and i think that she doesnt see like that because he's evil then he has to be "good" to reject her which would make Naruto "second" best which is bad, or she realizes that by herself or Naruto will surely be the "second best" thing.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 06 May 2013 - 01:40 PM.

[redragon88]

I'm still trying to figure out what makes her keep her love for Sasuke. Is it that she has been hopeful all this time that he would return her feelings? Because if that's the case then that could make Naruto out to be second best.

Or maybe she holds onto the love for Sasuke because she feels she has no other feelings to connect with him other than that. Maybe it would be similar to that discussion in Dragon Quest about the differences of love. It could be that someone directly tells Sakura that what she feels for Sasuke is different from true love, that is more of a caring love thanks to their friendship. Just like Naruto also loves Sasuke but isn't in love with him.

Since the only thing Sakura has ever done is love Sasuke romantically maybe she doesn't realize she could love him in a different way. The Summit arc makes it even more clear since she says that now instead of loving him romantically she feels nothing about him. It's like Sakura thinks that if she can't offer him romantic feelings that means she must by definition not care for him at all. Maybe Sakura's final stage of maturity is to realize that she can still care about Sasuke even if it isn't in a romantic sense.

It should be about Sakura finally understanding that she can reach a middle point with her feelings for Sasuke, that being in one extreme or the other isn't the only choice.

[James S Cassidy]

There's sai, i second to your opinion though but i just dont feel it fits in on NaruSaku relationship because it give a doublestandard for Sakura, because if she feels that she doesnt deserve Naruto why she doesnt apply this logic to Sasuke.
It's fits better to Sakura's thoughts about doing nothing for Naruto which Yamato already give that speech.

To be honest, dude, Sasuke shouldn't even be in the equation at all. Indifference is the true negative of love. It's not hate. And who says she thinks she deserves Sasuke? I don't see anywhere that implies that. From what I can tell, she isn't even thinking of Sasuke at all in that retrospect. However, this would apply if she truly does have feelings left for Sasuke in that way, but that is up in the air at the moment. Things could have and they might have changed since then. And like I said, we discussed 540 to death on this, so I don't think we need to bring that chapter back in.

Again, you might find this all stupid or asinine in some way, but this is how real life is. In a way, I agree with you, but then again this is what I most love about this relationship. It is the most realistic relationship type in this whole manga. If NS becomes canon in the end, it would be the best possible way to depict a loving relationship in a real life situation.

Everything eventually becomes a double standard. Even on this forum we have people use double standards on a daily basis and not just with relationships. This could be how we debate right now. It could be how we debated last week and even tomorrow.

It is most interesting if you really sit down and think about it. And if you hate it, that means Kishi is doing it right. Here we say Kishi can't write love yet he has made the most realistic relationship out of any manga I have ever read. The only way to ruin it is not make NS canon which would be kind of cheap. Of course, we also got some people who are not a fan of the "happy ending" and it seems to be a common thing as of late. Many stories giving these "bittersweet" endings that really have no "happy" to them. You just end up with content.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 06 May 2013 - 02:10 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

I'm still trying to figure out what makes her keep her love for Sasuke. Is it that she has been hopeful all this time that he would return her feelings? Because if that's the case then that could make Naruto out to be second best.

Or maybe she holds onto the love for Sasuke because she feels she has no other feelings to connect with him other than that. Maybe it would be similar to that discussion in Dragon Quest about the differences of love. It could be that someone directly tells Sakura that what she feels for Sasuke is different from true love, that is more of a caring love thanks to their friendship. Just like Naruto also loves Sasuke but isn't in love with him.

Since the only thing Sakura has ever done is love Sasuke romantically maybe she doesn't realize she could love him in a different way. The Summit arc makes it even more clear since she says that now instead of loving him romantically she feels nothing about him. It's like Sakura thinks that if she can't offer him romantic feelings that means she must by definition not care for him at all. Maybe Sakura's final stage of maturity is to realize that she can still care about Sasuke even if it isn't in a romantic sense.

It should be about Sakura finally understanding that she can reach a middle point with her feelings for Sasuke, that being in one extreme or the other isn't the only choice.

I would reply others but I have to address this one. I believe first love is the hardest love to let go, especially if you have nowhere to go. I'm not saying that you should keep loving that person if you have no other direction. I'm just saying her mind is saying that there's no love for her. That said her love did start off quickly, not from mutual developments. For example, there are shows that they are only friends. When the girl finds love with another guy, she will be into it because it's the first. Then after a fail attempt, the girl will feel hopeless that there's no love for her like "Maybe I'm not capable of love." That's when the best friend comes in cheering her up, only to find themselves loving each other.

Sakura and Ino are in the same situation, but let's focus solely on Sakura. Sakura has been given interpretation by third party perspectives, that it never fully addressed because they always get cut out or it's one of those moments a couple are in their world. That's why I said it's way more effective if a person tells Sakura that she loves Naruto, rather than Naruto loves her. It will cause her to look over her life and perhaps draw the conclusion. Instead, we have her continuing to fight her feelings. She has prioritized Naruto first, so it's seems like we are drawing near. Also, if only Naruto would talk to her as more than friend or something that makes him look like a man that will carry her, then Sakura's heart will be effected. PoaL had a huge effect on her, because she recapped chapter 3 and realized how wrong she was and how much Naruto truly cares. Now, if something similar happens again, I think she may come to conclusion that she's in love with him.

[xxRomanceGirlxx]

Hey, guys. I haven't been here for a while lol. And I'm back from just getting violently assaulted from a NaruHina fan on YT. And for what? 'Cause I said Kishimoto would be a completely failed writer if he made NaruHina/SasuSaku canon instead of NaruSaku and my faith in him would be lost. This person said the following to me:

1). What kind of of Naruto fan am I if I call Kishi a failed writer just because of pairings? Clearly, this person thinks I read for pairing when I don't. I was just making a observation of a lot of Kishi's forcedness lately.

2). "NaruSaku fans are hypocrites if they accuse NaruHina of 'lack of development' yet ship MinaKushi when it was also suffering from 'lack of development'. Kushina hated him, then fell in love with him. No development."

3). Kishimoto said in an interview that Hinata would make a better heroine than Sakura.

4). Sakura was never meant to be created along with Sasuke. Hinata was the love interest from the start.

5). He did this early drawing that supports NaruHina. One with Naruto in the background with Hinata in a dress. Complete and total proof for NaruHina.

6). NaruSaku is the red herring pairing, NaruHina/SasuSaku is the true pairing.

I've already countered all these points, I just wanted to share them with you here. I seriously find it almost laughable that I was able to deeply offend a NaruHina fan so badly by calling NaruHina bad writing. It's because it's true, it's not good writing at all this late in the story. It's just ... this fan.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Hey, guys. I haven't been here for a while lol. And I'm back from just getting violently assaulted from a NaruHina fan on YT. And for what? 'Cause I said Kishimoto would be a completely failed writer if he made NaruHina/SasuSaku canon instead of NaruSaku and my faith in him would be lost. This person said the following to me:

1). What kind of of Naruto fan am I if I call Kishi a failed writer just because of pairings? Clearly, this person thinks I read for pairing when I don't. I was just making a observation of a lot of Kishi's forcedness lately.

2). "NaruSaku fans are hypocrites if they accuse NaruHina of 'lack of development' yet ship MinaKushi when it was also suffering from 'lack of development'. Kushina hated him, then fell in love with him. No development."

3). Kishimoto said in an interview that Hinata would make a better heroine than Sakura.

4). Sakura was never meant to be created along with Sasuke. Hinata was the love interest from the start.

5). He did this early drawing that supports NaruHina. One with Naruto in the background with Hinata in a dress. Complete and total proof for NaruHina.

6). NaruSaku is the red herring pairing, NaruHina/SasuSaku is the true pairing.

I've already countered all these points, I just wanted to share them with you here. I seriously find it almost laughable that I was able to deeply offend a NaruHina fan so badly by calling NaruHina bad writing. It's because it's true, it's not good writing at all this late in the story. It's just ... this fan.

Yeah, don't worry about the fan. Just keep it yourself and just move on. If the fan don't act maturity with you, then why bother. It's sad but that's just how it is, or at least in internet. Glad to see you here again. I think that's what more important than fighting a fan.

Hey, did you check out the book that we posted yesterday? Turns out the so-called high level critic sees NH only as an encouragement, not love.

[StrikerTheNoble]

Hey, guys. I haven't been here for a while lol. And I'm back from just getting violently assaulted from a NaruHina fan on YT. And for what? 'Cause I said Kishimoto would be a completely failed writer if he made NaruHina/SasuSaku canon instead of NaruSaku and my faith in him would be lost. This person said the following to me:

1). What kind of of Naruto fan am I if I call Kishi a failed writer just because of pairings? Clearly, this person thinks I read for pairing when I don't. I was just making a observation of a lot of Kishi's forcedness lately.

2). "NaruSaku fans are hypocrites if they accuse NaruHina of 'lack of development' yet ship MinaKushi when it was also suffering from 'lack of development'. Kushina hated him, then fell in love with him. No development."

3). Kishimoto said in an interview that Hinata would make a better heroine than Sakura.

4). Sakura was never meant to be created along with Sasuke. Hinata was the love interest from the start.

5). He did this early drawing that supports NaruHina. One with Naruto in the background with Hinata in a dress. Complete and total proof for NaruHina.

6). NaruSaku is the red herring pairing, NaruHina/SasuSaku is the true pairing.

I've already countered all these points, I just wanted to share them with you here. I seriously find it almost laughable that I was able to deeply offend a NaruHina fan so badly by calling NaruHina bad writing. It's because it's true, it's not good writing at all this late in the story. It's just ... this fan.

Bolded: Wait what. She went from hating him to loving him. How is that not development? I wonder what this person cathegorises as development?