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Chapter 693


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#1841 Nate River

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 05:34 PM

The chapter has so many problems with it.

Parallels: Kishimoto has been criticized for his abuse of this device, especially lately when he appears to be using it as a substitute for genuine development. This one takes the cake, however.

This chapter is a very obvious parallel to the events of 181 and everything that occurred. Why he wants to repeat that is uncertain. I get wanting the battle to be at the VOTE, which is fine. But outside of that, I do no understand it. It's lazy, it developed nothing, and it basically did a massive reset to several relationship that make more than one person look bad.

Naruto: I don't have anything to add that has not already been said. I agree: where is the righteous indignation? However, for me, Naruto's character has been on a downhill slide since Pain, with his 'cool guy" speech about Obito shattering what respect I still had for him. It's not hard to imagine a guy calling a mass murderer a cool guy, just simply whining about Sasuke. I'm not that upset though because I quit taking him seriously after Obito. I hate that the series holds this guy up what it means to be a Hokage. Bleh.

Sasuke: Sasuke and Kakashi's portrayal in the chapter don't bother me. What bother's me about Sasuke is the long and extensive list of people who just refuse to hold him accountable or see him for what he is. Sasuke doesn't even encourage it either. Is there nothing he can do that would allow anyone to ask them selves and say...is it really worth it?

Sakura: I just don't understand why Kishimoto went through this is. First, he removes her from the fight. Second, he does with a declaration of love that just kind of whizzes on previous development in this arc alone. What is the point of Kakashi talking about changing feeling only to do this? What about her rather tardy revelation that he doesn't care? It should have been evident prior to that, but nevertheless it was made, so why this now?

If she was to move on from Sasuke this should have been something that was occurring throughout Part 2. It appeared to be happening toward the end of the war arc, but then we get this. So, from a NS point of view she is going to have to move on from an open declaration like that to unequivocally toward Naruto? If that movement hasn't been made by that point, then how easy it to believe it now? She was repeatedly given signs that maybe, he just didn't give a kitten. She appeared to get the message, but then...I guess not.

Moreover, as has been mentioned, the parralell events in 181 and Naruto nearly getting killed at the end of Part 1 were the motivating factor for her transformation. So why is she repeating that desperation plea of love again, getting KO'd, while Naruto talks about a promise he earlier said didn't matter as he goes to fight alone? Isn't this precisely the kind of thing she resolved to move past. I sincerely hope she comes too and has some involvement in Sasuke v. Naruto part 2, or she may join Naruto in the character abyss.

From an SS point of view this should be equally ba, because SS would require accepting Sasuke suddenly caring when he has over and over shown he just doesn't feel that way. This chapter craps on both pairings.

Finally, that plea was about "me, me, me." It appears to her feelings and really nothing about Sasuke. I understood for 12 year old Sakura doing it to prevent his exodus. I don't get the sudden repeat of a tactic that failed miserably once from a character who was supposed to be developing throughout Part 2. What was Kishimoto thinking?

I agree with tricksie. This chapter basically slammed the reset button on the Team 7 relationships. So what were we doing for nearly 400 chapters?

so now 675 no longer has a platonic meaning to it?


Perhaps not, but that also presumes that there is a logical cohesion to this and that's a leap I'm not sure I can make anymore.

#1842 Nic

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 05:42 PM

Wouldn't be surprised if Sasuke has to give Sakura another reality check after the promise of a lifetime is fulfilled that is similar to the one he gave her about Naruto after the rescue Sakura mini arc. 



#1843 unhskikrforever

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 05:42 PM

Nope, I'm done here. I'm done reading all the posts. All these negativity and insecurities.. I'm just going to wait until the next few chapters are out or when the manga ends so I'd understand what this chapter actually meant.

 

Yeap, I'm out.


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#1844 Nate River

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 05:43 PM

Wouldn't be surprised if Sasuke has to give Sakura another reality check after the promise of a lifetime is fulfilled that is similar to the one he gave her about Naruto after the rescue Sakura mini arc.


I have long suspected he might do something like that, can't say it'd be very satisfying though.

#1845 Awes9

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 05:53 PM

Don't look too deep into it, Kishi is a weird individual who has a screw loose, there's no other way to justify all the nonsense we have been trough.

#1846 Gojira

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 05:54 PM

Again i'm pretty sure the point of this chapter was so Kishi can show that Naruto is not a silver medal

 

When this fight is over and we see her rushing to one of their sides its going to be Naruto......the problem with this? It wont satisfy anybody and we wont buy it after this kitten.


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#1847 Nate River

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 05:55 PM

Again i'm pretty sure the point of this chapter was so Kishi can show that Naruto is not a silver medal
 
When this fight is over and we see her rushing to one of their sides its going to be Naruto......the problem with this? It wont satisfy anybody and we wont buy it after this kitten.


If that is goal then it is an unmitigated failure.

This chapter should have highlighted how far they come and been a contrast to 181, not a direct parallel.

#1848 Gojira

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 05:58 PM

If that is goal then it is an unmitigated failure.

This chapter should have highlighted how far they come and been a contrast to 181, not a direct parallel.

Maybe the point he's trying to make is that NS would become canon even without Sasuke leaving.

 

The cost? Sakura's dignity and fanbase.


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#1849 tricksie

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 05:58 PM

Perhaps not, but that also presumes that there is a logical cohesion to this and that's a leap I'm not sure I can make anymore.

 

Ha - too true.

 

Just thinking, since Sasuke mind-stabbed Sakura through the heart, wouldn't that render Naruto's promise-of-a-lifetime null and void too? I mean, just what does Naruto think he's going to do now? Bring Sasuke back and force him to love Sakura? How is that good for Sakura? If Naruto truly loves her then why would he want that kind of relationship for her? And if Naruto were truly Sasuke's friend, then why would he want to force him into a relationship he obviously hates?

 

It just makes his good-guy, "I'm going to bring him back no matter what the cost," POL speech at the end sound even more delusional.



#1850 六道仙人

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 05:59 PM

Random guy: "Kishimoto-sensei, What is your favorite soap opera?"

Kishi: "I very like to see Beautiful and the chemistry that Brooke has with all men....so...beautiful!!It inspires me!"


は天才バスケットマン桜木花道。

"I'm the Basketball genius, Hanamichi Sakuragi"

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#1851 K9ofChaos

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 06:00 PM

lol to ASS/ANH who have always thought that the POL was gone... It's still valid...

 

I wouldn't consider this capter as ANS and Pro SS... Sasuke says that he doesn't care romantically for her ... and Sakura talked at the past....

 

She said it in past tense, so I just assumed that she no longer holds romantic feelings for the creep. If anything, she might feel ashamed of herself for liking him in the first place. So it's official, SS is kill. Then again, Kishi could pull a 180 on us. But at least we know that even Sasuke never understood her infatuation with him.



#1852 Gojira

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 06:00 PM

I'm more confused how Kishi plans on having Sasuke go back to the good side and make it believable he won't switch if someone accidentally sneezes on him or something.

 

 

 

She said it in past tense, so I just assumed that she no longer holds romantic feelings for the creep. If anything, she might feel ashamed of herself for liking him in the first place. So it's official, SS is kill. Then again, Kishi could pull a 180 on us. But at least we know that even Sasuke never understood her infatuation with him.

 

That would have been perfect and we all would have liked that but no....sadly MS is apparently the correct translation for once. 


Edited by Pepsi, 26 September 2014 - 06:01 PM.

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#1853 AzureWaters

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 06:01 PM

So.... 24-ish hours later and I'm still really unsatisfied with this chapter.

 

I keep wishing Sakura was more like Astrid or Winrey, and less like how she is portrayed here where her fierceness is always undermined. 

 

Case in point: Sakura is one of the strongest at breaking genjutsus. Her natural talent outpaces most of the shinobi in Konoha, as seen in the chunin exam when she was one of only a few in the stands (think best of the best all gathered to watch the matches) to withstand that genjutsu and come out of it on her own, with no help from anyone. And what happens in this chapter? Of course, Sasuke hits her with a nasty genjutsu that she is powerless to overcome, striking down the thing she is most talented at (outside of chakra control). 

 

It's undermines her on two different levels: 

1. Sasuke forcing himself on her violently in her mind is the same as doing it in the flesh — Sasuke gives the impression of killing her. He leaves her with the intent and image, just not the actual deed. This is a violence at it strongest, cold blooded murder, and there's no excusing it or justifying his actions. It's psychological torture, and one that she believes is real until someone snaps her out of it.

2. Sakura's number one skill has been taken away — Her ability to fend off genjutsu's has collapsed. By flopping on the ground, disabled by Sasuke, Sakura is shown in the ultimate weak position. She can't kill him with her physical skill, she can't heal him, she can't beg for him to stay, and now she can't even break his genjutsu, a skill which even he noted in the past was superior to others. She's been completely disabled. Physically and emotionally.

 

And if next chapter Kishimoto pulls a switch, trolling us all by showing Sasuke talking to her in the genjutsu instead of mentally killing her over and over, it will be equally repulsive. Hurting her just to show how much he really loves her, beneath it all in some secret head space, is often how victim's excuse away physical domestic abuse. And if Kishimoto uses it as plot device....well, it will be a new low for the story.

 

The last thing that really disgusts me is that the outpouring of sympathy towards Sasuke remains as strong as ever. Willfully so, even when it flies in the face of reality. The Sage talks of hoping Sasuke can one day find love...after he just stabbed the girl who professed her love through the heart!! WTH, Sage? Were you not paying attention there? 

 

And Naruto simply whines about it, as if Sasuke just hung up the phone on Sakura instead of killing her with his mind. I'm beginning to wonder if there is anything Sasuke could do that would be deemed as too far by Naruto's standards.

 

My point is Sasuke has done NOTHING to warrant this much continued sympathy. Nothing. But he gets heaps and heaps of from those around him, even from someone who only just met him (the Sage) while Sakura has been mentally murdered and is lying in a fetal position beside them. But she is barely noticed except for Naruto's half-hearted comment, because the rest of them keep their eyes on Sasuke, still blathering on about his poor plight.

 

There is no way Kishi can redeem this storyline in one battle. And I think we can all assume that Naruto's going to lose because of the state of his hand in the movie sketches (probably from using that technique that destroys muscle at the cellular level). And Sasuke's continued glare in the sketches makes it look like nothing's changed with him, so we can just assume he won't be the loser here. 

 

So I'm with folks who think this fight will go down like that OVA, with Sakura and Kakashi rescuing a wounded Naruto. 

 

My only concern is that the story will wrap up like that novel, where the heroine doesn't come to her senses about the main character until the very, very end. Can't remember the name, but it was the promotional novel that mirrored Naruto's story. I just would like to see more of the story of Naruto and Sakura together than the last two pages of the manga or that last five minutes of the movie.

I have to disagree some. Kakashi basically went on a tirade about Sasuke's treatment of Sakura this chapter. Naruto complained about him putting her under genjutsu, but Kakashi was also worried about her. Moreso than the others imo.



#1854 六道仙人

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 06:02 PM

 

She said it in past tense, so I just assumed that she no longer holds romantic feelings for the creep. If anything, she might feel ashamed of herself for liking him in the first place. So it's official, SS is kill. Then again, Kishi could pull a 180 on us. But at least we know that even Sasuke never understood her infatuation with him.

 

sorry but mangapanda was wrong... I checked a reliable script from a japanese...and MS is right, they use the present tense.


は天才バスケットマン桜木花道。

"I'm the Basketball genius, Hanamichi Sakuragi"

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#1855 K9ofChaos

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 06:04 PM

 

sorry but mangapanda was wrong... I checked a reliable script from a japanese...and MS is right, they use the present tense.

 

kitten.



#1856 luffyq1

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 06:04 PM

 

I don't think this takes away any of Sakura's development. I think all this chapter did was show that, while she did develop in some ways, there's still one more thing that needs to develop/change, which is her view of romantic love. Even though it has matured, she still has an incorrect understanding of it. Unlike her first confession, the love that she holds now is selfless, and therefore different. However, it's still wrong because it's on the extreme end of selflessness to the point where she degrades herself. And as a Sakura fan...this really upsets me :(. Not because Kishi's wrong in going about it in this way, but because it's just....sad to see her fall why she tries to find her way to becoming the strong woman that she will be in the end, you know? 

 

It's not even that it's incorrect now to believe she's growing to see Naruto in a romantic light either, because she is. And NS's chances of happening hasn't decreased at all. In fact, I think this chapter might have increased it even more.  It's just so...sigh ;-;. The best thing about it is that it shows that Kishi isn't done with her character yet. It's just frustrating that it took this long and that he chose to do it now rather than before. 

In my opinion it actually does take away from Sakura's development. A lot of us thought she was moving past this part of her 12 year old counterpart. But nope. Being within distance of Sasuke has steadily brought back that low self-esteem 12 year old girl. It started with her realizing he doesn't give a kitten about her this late in the series, and then she's worrying over his opinion of her when he said she's useless. Why kitten on her development this late in the series just to build her back up? Her development doesn't need to be crapped on late in the series, it should be elevated with each passing chapter. But nope. 

 

NS is going to happen without question. But how it's pulled off will obviously be unsatisfying. Her love for Sasuke has been emphasized so much, what's worse is that it's this late in the series and when she finally picks Naruto he'll look like the rebound guy. She loves Sasuke so much that it hurts. How will Naruto ever compete with that? It's too big of a mess in the romance subplot and Kishi can't possibly mop it all up.

 

It's best to leave things open ended.


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#1857 Gojira

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 06:05 PM

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#1858 K9ofChaos

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 06:08 PM

In my opinion it actually does take away from Sakura's development. A lot of us thought she was moving past this part of her 12 year old counterpart. But nope. Being within distance of Sasuke has steadily brought back that low self-esteem 12 year old girl. It started with her realizing he doesn't give a kitten about her this late in the series, and then she's worrying over his opinion of her when he said she's useless. Why kitten on her development this late in the series just to build her back up? Her development doesn't need to be crapped on late in the series, it should be elevated with each passing chapter. But nope. 

 

NS is going to happen without question. But how it's pulled off will obviously be unsatisfying. Her love for Sasuke has been emphasized so much, what's worse is that it's this late in the series and when she finally picks Naruto he'll look like the rebound guy. She loves Sasuke so much that it hurts. How will Naruto ever compete with that? It's too big of a mess in the romance subplot and Kishi can't possibly mop it all up.

 

It's best to leave things open ended.

 

Well they could revisit the bench scene. I don't think Naruto will be seen as a second place trophy of some kind.



#1859 luffyq1

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 06:11 PM

 

Well they could revisit the bench scene. I don't think Naruto will be seen as a second place trophy of some kind.

All it took was for her to realize that Naruto was the one who complimented her forehead and not Sasuke? That would just make Sakura look easy. 


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#1860 AzureWaters

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 06:13 PM

It irritates me that Sakura confessed to Sasuke in front of Naruto and Naruto doesn't seem all that affected by it.  He had a slightly worried expression but that was about it. Nothing to conclude that he's feeling distress over Sakura proclaiming her love to another man right in front of his face. Even worse is that he looked like background during the entire scene. Kakashi had more to say than he did. ugh






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