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Analysis of NS scenes post-ending


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#161 DrK

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 04:14 AM

They couldn't even let us have that. No, they decided to retcon that NS never existed in the first place. It is not enough to win, but want to trip us as well after the race is over.

You know, Gaiden is incredibly ham-fisted. They are calling each other by their marital titles. Sakura doesn't call the family by their names, but calls them husband and darling daughter while threatening an enemy. That's too ham-fisted to even put into words. Like the word "ham-fisted" isn't good enough to say how ham-fisted that is.



#162 James S Cassidy

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 04:42 AM

You know, Gaiden is incredibly ham-fisted. They are calling each other by their marital titles. Sakura doesn't call the family by their names, but calls them husband and darling daughter while threatening an enemy. That's too ham-fisted to even put into words. Like the word "ham-fisted" isn't good enough to say how ham-fisted that is.

"My wife..."
"My husband..."

"See, they are totally married. Just because they don't have a ring, wedding pictures, and Sakura never thinks about their wedding as the happiest day of her life with Sasuke doesn't mean they are not married."

Seriously, why does Sakura not think about their so called "wedding" as the happiest day of her life and instead chose the "head boop" scene?
 


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#163 DrK

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 04:46 AM

"My wife..."
"My husband..."

"See, they are totally married. Just because they don't have a ring, wedding pictures, and Sakura never thinks about their wedding as the happiest day of her life with Sasuke doesn't mean they are not married."

Seriously, why does Sakura not think about their so called "wedding" as the happiest day of her life and instead chose the "head boop" scene?
 

How is being poked on the forehead better than a kiss is a better question. I can see why Sasuke would think it was better, because that way he doesn't have to get close to Sakura, but I don't understand it from Sakura's perspective. It's not any safer for her, because he can still electrify his hand and instantly kill her. She's not as close to Sasuke as she would be with a kiss either. It makes no sense.



#164 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 04:47 AM

A certain individual keeps demanding to know how I can like one portrayal of Sakura, but not like another portrayal of Sakura since they're the same person and Kishimoto always portrayed her the same way.

 

I like this character:

 

Naruto-Chapter3033_zps632e6f1d.png

Naruto-Chapter3035_zps764cfeae.png

 

I don't like this character:

 

gy1Ntt1.jpg

 

I know what you mean, DrK. Sakura is a sick parody of herself in Naruto Gaiden, while she was a badass in the first few arcs of Shippuden, like with her fight vs. Sasori, trying to help Naruto when he went all Kurama, and trying to fight Sasuke when facing him again. I MISS that Sakura Haruno so much!! T_T



#165 DrK

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 04:58 AM

 

I know what you mean, DrK. Sakura is a sick parody of herself in Naruto Gaiden, while she was a badass in the first few arcs of Shippuden, like with her fight vs. Sasori, trying to help Naruto when he went all Kurama, and trying to fight Sasuke when facing him again. I MISS that Sakura Haruno so much!! T_T

Yeah, it's not something I can ever really talk about in the thread because it's not a NS thing, but the fact that she actually fought Sasuke is a massive inconsistency. Because it makes no sense at all that being away from him and starting to fall in love with Naruto would have made her love Sasuke even more to the point where she at first can't hurt him in Kage arc, and then just falls to her knees in 693. It's just a backpedal and there is no excuse for it other than changing pairings at a late date.

 

You can say that she had a poisoned kunai one of those times, so maybe she just couldn't bear to actually kill him, but her punches are also lethal. This was established by Naruto. Ergo, Kishi is full of crap.


Edited by DrK, 02 December 2017 - 05:01 AM.


#166 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 05:14 AM

Sasori VS Sakura was the best thing ever -ugly sobbing- Why did Kishimoto have to regress her from that point? Why couldn't we have more of THAT. Forget Sasuke, Forget Killer Bee Filler BS and all the other random characters Kishimoto had to throw at us, why couldn't he just use what he'd already made great and carry it further?


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#167 DrK

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 05:18 AM

Sasori VS Sakura was the best thing ever -ugly sobbing- Why did Kishimoto have to regress her from that point? Why couldn't we have more of THAT. Forget Sasuke, Forget Killer Bee Filler BS and all the other random characters Kishimoto had to throw at us, why couldn't he just use what he'd already made great and carry it further?

Or at least if you have to pair her with someone who tried to kill her, why not pair her with Sasori? Even though he cut off his own genitals, he'd still be a better husband than Sasuke.



#168 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 05:20 AM

hey I like Sasosaku :fu: 

At least Sasori admitted to "liking her." :zaru: 


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#169 DrK

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 05:21 AM

hey I like Sasosaku :fu: 

At least Sasori admitted to "liking her." :zaru:

Anyone would like that Sakura. Even Sasuke himself would probably like her if she actually kept being like that.



#170 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 05:22 AM

Its just so sad to see something so amazing wasted. And not even wasted but utterly nuked from orbit. 


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#171 T XD

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 03:51 PM

When these two panels got mentioned in the previous page :

 

Naruto-Chapter3033_zps632e6f1d.png
Naruto-Chapter3035_zps764cfeae.png

 

Tsk. This reminds me of a main character who was on the path of strength and development. A heroine with so much potential regressed later on.
 
Sakura Haruno could really have been one of the best heroines in the world of manga and anime.
 
One of these two options or both of these options:
- Either Kishimoto wasn't the only one who was controlling the story.
 
- Kishimoto gave up on the story for other reasons.
 
Sakura was one of my favorite characters in manga and anime till chapter 698 happened. I got literally bewildered when I saw her regressed to her part 1 self. I couldn't believe that Kishimoto would do that to his heroine.

 

So many panels done only to waste ink.


Edited by T XD, 02 December 2017 - 04:02 PM.


#172 TheFirstEvil100

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 10:44 PM

When these two panels got mentioned in the previous page :

 

Naruto-Chapter3033_zps632e6f1d.png
Naruto-Chapter3035_zps764cfeae.png

 

Tsk. This reminds me of a main character who was on the path of strength and development. A heroine with so much potential regressed later on.
 
Sakura Haruno could really have been one of the best heroines in the world of manga and anime.
 
One of these two options or both of these options:
- Either Kishimoto wasn't the only one who was controlling the story.
 
- Kishimoto gave up on the story for other reasons.
 
Sakura was one of my favorite characters in manga and anime till chapter 698 happened. I got literally bewildered when I saw her regressed to her part 1 self. I couldn't believe that Kishimoto would do that to his heroine.

 

So many panels done only to waste ink.

Well remember like Derock said Kishi was just in it for the money nothing more.



#173 Bryon_Konoha_Ninja

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 10:53 PM

Well remember like Derock said Kishi was just in it for the money nothing more.

 

Which is super sad =/ I even am in it to do the best story I can when I am being creative, even if I still procrastinate so much and don't get word to notepad and such.



#174 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 10:53 PM

I don't doubt that Kishimoto's ultimate goal is money, but i do think there was a time that he also cared about Story and characters. I think he honestly tried the best HE could with Sakura and when all of his attempts seemed to fail he thought "Well kitten this, why am i even trying?" and he gave up. Because he's a lazy writer. He wanted what was easy and when what he was trying didn't work he just stopped trying. 


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#175 DrK

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Posted 02 December 2017 - 11:08 PM

The CPR scene.
 
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Then Minato and Obito show up and Naruto is finally saved and we're left with this image:
 
Naruto-Chapter6722_zps3805e2d9.png
 
What happens in this scene? Naruto loses the Kyuubi, so he is dying. Gaara wants to save him so he takes Naruto to a group of medical shinobi which includes Tsunade and Sakura. He asks Tsunade to come with, but Tsunade sends Sakura instead. Sakura does and tries to heal Naruto with Mystical Palm, but it doesn't work. Gaara explains that this is because they took the Kyuubi from him, and he can be saved by receiving the other half of the Kyuubi that the Yondaime has. So they go to find Naruto's father. Sakura keeps him alive in the meantime by compressing his heart manually and giving him mouth to mouth. He eventually gets saved by the combined efforts of Minato, Obito, and Sakura herself.
 
When making this post, I was struck by how long this scene is. It spends a huge amount of time showing how distraught and desperate Sakura is. I am not sure if the correct translation for "Your dream..." is "It's right in front of us" or "It's right in front of you", but if it's the former that makes everything even worse.
 
So why does Sakura get so damn emotional? You know, it's hard to say. She certainly didn't get like this with Shikamaru earlier.

 

I mean, she wouldn't even come along with Gaara at first. He tells her basically to shut up and get on the damn sand. But she wants an explanation right now because she's so upset about what happened to Naruto.
 
For me, it's not so much that her state doesn't make sense given the ultimate pairing choice. It could still have made sense in the story. It's just the way that this event was treated and the method that Kishimoto used. It doesn't work the way he did it. Sakura should not have freaked out to this extent. Kishi shouldn't have devoted this many panels to it. She should not have ultimately associated herself with Naruto's dream if she didn't see herself as a really important part of it.

 
And the choice of CPR, and especially the choice of her holding Naruto's heart in her hands is in very poor taste given what ultimately happens in the end. Naruto was dying. His heart had stopped beating. Through Sakura's actions, and Sakura's actions alone, it started to beat again. She was holding his heart, and in that moment, it was beating just for her. The ending not only WASTED this symbolism, it made the symbolism wholly inappropriate.
 
If Kishimoto wanted NHSS, any sane editor would tell him to do something different.
 
So what does this mean for NaruSaku? Well, what was it supposed to mean? Sakura is the one who makes Naruto's dream possible, because she's a part of his dream. Sakura acknowledges this about herself, but somehow didn't acknowledge that Naruto was the one she wanted to be with?
 
You must also consider that Sasuke was dying at the same time. Yes, Sakura didn't know this. But Kishimoto did. Kishimoto also made the extremely questionable choice of having panels at the end with Sakura kneeling next to Naruto and Karin kneeling next to Sasuke. This is a statement that these are the two partnerships he's going with. But then he ultimately doesn't. This is also baffling.

 

Why did Sasuke abandon Karin to be with Sakura? The only explanation I've ever seen anyone provide for this is "Because Karin is a walking garbage fire." That isn't good enough for me.
 
The extreme emotions displayed on the part of Sakura towards Naruto are actually inappropriate if she's supposed to end up with Sasuke, because Sasuke is dying at the same time. It doesn't matter if Sakura knows about this or not. You as the mangaka are painting the picture. If you want Sakura to be with Sasuke, then set it up that way.
 
Sakura was losing her mind over the bad state Naruto was in. Karin was losing her mind over the bad state Sasuke was in. So Sakura should have been with Naruto, and Karin should have been with Sasuke. This works great when you look back on it. What he did does not work great. It looks terrible when you look back on it.
 
Did Naruto love Sakura at this point? Yes... I think? At some point he stopped. I don't know if he had done so by this point, because it's impossible to say.
 
Did Sakura love Naruto at this point? Anyone would assume yes. But the answer was ultimately no, somehow.
 
I mean, Kishi didn't even have to use Sakura for this. Gaara wanted Tsunade, because he assumed Tsunade was the best. Tsunade could have done it. It would have been a little weird, but not as f***ed up as this is. Tsunade loved Naruto in a motherly way. So if Kishi uses Tsunade, it wouldn't look like he did something ridiculous just to give everyone the wrong idea.
 
Rating: 4. I want to say 5, but honestly, I can't. Because the story was already screwed up at this point. He had already started to destroy his life's work by ham-fistedly introducing NH. I don't even know that Naruto still loved Sakura. However, he failed to portray that he no longer loved her. Therefore, this scene is really bad considering the ending. He was connecting Sakura to Naruto's dream. Making it seem like his dream was the most important thing to her still. She held his heart in her hands.
 
But Sakura ultimately became a nonentity in Naruto's life. She would have left Konoha without even saying goodbye, all to be with Sasuke. When Naruto starts moving on with his life, having a family, becoming Hokage, etc, it's established that he's not really in touch with Sakura anymore. They aren't really friends. This was made clear in Gaiden when Naruto talks to Suigetsu. What a horrible result.

 

And all because Sakura couldn't be allowed to keep the development that she had. She HAS to abandon everything for someone who tried to kill her. Why? Because of Hinata? That's pathetic.
 
E9Yx30J.png
 
It seems so important to Sakura that Naruto lives. This Sakura would not trade Naruto for a victory in the war. She would have found that completely unacceptable.
 
Yet when everything is over with and everyone is safe. she's willing to be away from Naruto as well as everyone else in Konoha just to be with someone who never really liked her very much?

 

Sakura, Naruto didn't become Hokage yet. Why do you want to leave already? Either his dream is really important to you, or it isn't. Which one is it? It can't be both.


Edited by DrK, 03 December 2017 - 04:54 AM.


#176 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 12:05 AM

This is only the second time Sakura is proclaiming she doesn't want to see "Naruto's dream crushed." She's prioritized this since the written Chuunin Exam when she was willing to throw her own chance away for him. Also, for someone who is paralleled with Kushina, they're both wanting to make the dreams of Wannabe Hokage's come true over everything else. What's really annoying is the side by side of Sakura/Naruto  juxtaposed with Sasuke/Karin. That wasn't necessary. You could have shown them with Kabuto and Obito instead or alone and skip the romanticism. 


Both Sakura and Karin are doing their best to save the men who are presumably most important to them, alternatively falling to bits and clinging to any possibility that they can be saved in a way that in any other manga would have the readers going "Yea this seems like it has romantic connotations." I mean remember when Ichigo but his chest blown in by Ulquiorra and Orihime spent an entire page shouting jibberish in horror as she tried to put him back together? go back and look at 348-350 Bleach and compare it to the CPR scene. Its following the same theme of "Girl in love desperate to save man." 

Its like Kishimoto has this part planned from the start and didn't want to change it despite the fact that he'd decided some where not to end the series as NS?...Remember the brief ad from forever ago of Sakura crying over Naruto until he woke up to see her crying over him? Seems familiar.  Its like he thought "Well, So what if it ends NH? I'm going to be done with this kitten and whoever comes after can deal with the mess. I don't feel like coming up with a new plan so I'll stick with what i have even though the ending no longer matches the lead up." 


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#177 DrK

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 12:15 AM

Its like Kishimoto has this part planned from the start and didn't want to change it despite the fact that he'd decided some where not to end the series as NS?...Remember the brief ad from forever ago of Sakura crying over Naruto until he woke up to see her crying over him? Seems familiar.  Its like he thought "Well, So what if it ends NH? I'm going to be done with this kitten and whoever comes after can deal with the mess. I don't feel like coming up with a new plan so I'll stick with what i have even though the ending no longer matches the lead up." 

Definitely. Like he had scripted this scene because of how powerful it would be and he couldn't bear to just leave it on the drawing board. This is inexcusable though because of how much it's jerking the readers around.

 

It also ends up being a callback to the time when Sakura learned that removing a bijuu would kill the jinchuuriki. She was horrified to learn that. Now her worst fears became a reality. So it's super emotional for that reason. And it's amazing that Sakura managed to save him. Then the ending throws all of that into the garbage.


Edited by DrK, 03 December 2017 - 12:21 AM.


#178 Tsuki Hoshino

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 12:31 AM

Kishimoto very easily could have added in some throwaway line like; "You're the best friend I ever had and I can't let you die here like this." And it could very well have removed the romantic element and reduced Naruto to the Friend-zone without question. Instead its left in the "This is romantic." Category because of all the past development/history of feelings between them. 


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#179 DrK

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 12:43 AM

Kishimoto very easily could have added in some throwaway line like; "You're the best friend I ever had and I can't let you die here like this." And it could very well have removed the romantic element and reduced Naruto to the Friend-zone without question. Instead its left in the "This is romantic." Category because of all the past development/history of feelings between them. 

I think Kishimoto himself didn't want her to be with Sasuke. He knew that she had to be, but he didn't want to write anything in regard to that or her denying Naruto sooner than he had to. Because she was based on his wife. So we get the mess that we got.


Edited by DrK, 03 December 2017 - 12:53 AM.


#180 Phantom_999

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Posted 03 December 2017 - 05:59 AM

Okay it took me a little bit of thinking but anyway here are the rest of my reasons for putting any NS scene regardless of what is was a 5 on the scale, no questions or exceptions.

 

2. working off of number 1, can someone tell me why EXACTLY Sakura is viewed by the audience and in the story itself as Naruto's "Love interest"? And forget about about shipping preferences because that is not the point. Why is it that Sakura is viewed as Naruto's love interest by the narrative and a few characters here and there ask Naruto "if" or assume Sakura is his girlfriend? I know for me that happens with a lot of other anime so I'd believe it is reasonable to say that Sakura falls under the love interest tropes of many other anime. Anime watchers should, I hope recognize the typical anime love interest traits. You know, thick headed guy with with strong willed tsundere girl. Girl gets violent or defensive if being asked if she and the guy in question are a couple. Girl has tender and emotional moments with the guy to show their growing relationship. If girl had a poor to very bad first impression of the guy, it gradually changes and gets better. Surely a lot of anime fans remember that right? So my question is, WHY bother with all that if it was all meant to be a red herring? Why throw all that development down the toilet? If Naruto was meant to be with Hinata from the beginning, might as well have had him interested in her from the beginning, else not have added a romance subplot to it and keep it the route that Dragon Ball, Bleach and One Piece have taken in keeping their characters chaste or asexual like. Naruto could be more interested in being Hokage than getting a girlfriend and therefore rendering explanation on how he gets with any girl/ woman unnecessary and justified OFF PANEL. But there it is, he has blatant romantic interest in Sakura.

 

3. and I'll play off of how I ended reason 2. Again why couldn't Kishi have gone a different route if he meant to mislead us with NaruSaku and opted for NaruHina instead. What was all those moments and interactions with Naruto and Sakura for if it was to mean nothing in the end. NO, don't use the excuse that he felt like he was bad at romance, felt that he was terrible at writing it or that it was not suppose to be a romance manga, because HERE IS the paradox of that explanation. If any of that were true why would there be (false?) NS moments in the first place? Again why couldn't it be like Bleach, One Piece, and Dragon Ball where there is barely if any hint of romance? Toriyama thought he was terrible at romance too so that is why Goku and Chi Chi happened the way they did, and I believe he stated he made Vegeta X Bulma at first to piss off fans, yet both of these couples are still more believable to me than NaruHina with how they interact in the Dragon Ball series. So once more, why Why did there have to be some (misleading?) romantic fluff here and there with Naruto and Sakura if Kishimoto was so "terrible at romance"? Here is a better question, and one I direct at the rabid NH fans. If this was not "supposed to be a romance manga," why are YOU talking about how "perfect and lovely of a wife" Hinata would be for Naruto? WHY is it that you say it is not a romance manga but you are playing fictional match maker? WELL? Care to explain?  :wot: You see, here is the difference between Rabid pairing fans and fans of the story. Fans of the story DON'T dictate, fantasize or DEMAND that Sakura would be the perfect, loving wife for Naruto, the Narrative and her interactions with Naruto both physically and verbally, SHOW THAT. We don't ship NaruSaku just because we want to, we also ship it because the narrative and and their chemistry together provide us with all the evidence we will ever need that they would have a solid, enduring, loving and lasting marriage.

 

In conclusion, my stance has never changed regarding NS even after the ending. If you want me to believe NS was not meant to be, show some panels where Naruto and Sakura amicably stay as friends and not to let any thing change how they view each other as best friends. If Hinata is the designated love interest, SHOW ME panels of Naruto, actually talking to her, joking around with her, and generally show he is comfortable in his skin with her just like he is with Sakura, Iruka, Kakashi, Jiraiya, Tsunade and every other person he views as his family or precious one. If you can't, take a freaking writing class then. It's not that hard.  


Edited by Phantom_999, 04 December 2017 - 09:12 PM.

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