211 replies to this topic

[TheFirstEvil100]

We all know Naruto loved Sakura but because the NH side was well, let's say more vocal they got what they wanted.

[James S Cassidy]

 

Further, I was rather specific: Chapter 573, 615 does this a bit too. . 

So what does chapter 693 prove?

[Kagomaru]

We all know Naruto loved Sakura but because the NH side was well, let's say more vocal they got what they wanted.

And Kishimoto has a spine made of wet noodles because he allowed a vocal minority, his otaku editors and a single Youtube video from some idiotic fanboy to sway him. 

 

And Analyzer, what's silly and absurd isn't the arguments and accompanied evidence raised before you, but your extremely unhealthy denial and desire for attention from our community. 

Edited by Kagomaru, 12 October 2017 - 07:35 PM.

[James S Cassidy]

Chapter 693 is Sakura saying she still loves Sasuke, and Sasuke still focused on not having bonds, as he hasn't been stopped yet. 

 

 

Okay, so now Analyzer...you have just proven to me that you hate men. You are sexist against men because you don't take men's views seriously.

This is clearly a "No" from Sasuke. I mean, you can't get anymore straight forward than that and yet you are going to sit here and tell me that men's feelings don't matter and that women are the only ones who does.

 

I may hate Sasuke, but at least I know and respect the kind of character he is.

Naruto can say "I love Sakura" till he is blue in the face.....You say he doesn't know what he is talking about. (We have proven Naruto had said this on at least 3-5 occasions.)
Sasuke can say "I don't love Sakura" till he is blue in the face....and you say he doesn't know what he is talking about. (We have proven he had said this throughout the entire manga.)

So not only have you insulted me as a Naruto fan, a NS fan, my intelligence, my reading comprehension, and my friends, but now you have insulted me as a man.

This is where I finally say....I am not talking to you anymore. I have reached a new understanding that there is no talking to you. Ever. I have tried to talk to you and all you do is insult people. So, in god's name, I am done. I am done dealing with a liar and a person who just doesn't love this manga the way that we do. I am tired of dealing with people who take these manga stories and use them as nothing more than wish fullfillment.

You want to live in your word of lies and bow to Kishimoto like a god. So be it. I will live in my own world. A world where men aren't forced to be with women they don't want to be with and women aren't treated like baby making housewives who get called pathetic by their husbands.

The only thing I regret....is continuing to talk to you when I should have known better. That is my fault and I take full blame for that.

 

Hinata and her fanbase have ruined this manga. And just like how everyone hates Sakura, I will forever hate Hinata for everything she is and stands for. People may dislike this, but it is the truth and all I ask is that you respect that.

 

Edited by James S Cassidy, 12 October 2017 - 07:43 PM.

[AHK]

Respectfully, we can't nit-pick what is and isn't canon.
 
To pre-face this response, it's canon that Naruto didn't love Sakura. I think what is really the debate of things is -if- that makes sense, or if the information of that was clear, or if it indeed contradicts earlier information. Even if it blatantly contradicts (Which many DC and Marvel comic books famously do in their re-launches of their universe), it's still canon. Ignoring canon doesn't make it not canon. Saying it "isn't canon to me" doesn't change it either, canon doesn't work that way.
 
Not saying that's being done, Though I saw AHK say as much and frankly, AHK, it's not something that can be debated. Not even saying this to be mean, but I want to start with that as a pre-face, because I think that is at least important to acknowledge. (Saying you wish it wasn't canon though, perfectly valid!)

I'll get back to your first statement in a second.

Despite what you say, it is canon and factual that Naruto was in love with Sakura. It is 100 percent factual that the reason Naruto made the PoaL was because he loved Sakura, and wanted to see her happy at the cost of his own happiness (an example of love). It is also a fact that the events that led up to LoI is were Sai learning that Naruto loved Sakura per a conversation with Naruto himself, and then Sai telling Sakura and Sakura coming to the realization that what Sai said was true. He very fact that she tried to manipulate his feelings is a testament to that simple fact in its own right.

Which brings me back to your first quote: "Respectfully, we can't nit-pick what is and isn't canon." Look, we can debate till the sun goes down, and you can believe whatever floats your boat, but don't try this hypocritical nonsense on me. You can't say that you can't nit-pick what is and what isn't canon, and then proceed to say that Naruto didn't love Sakura, when it is a canon fact that he was.

[TheFirstEvil100]

And Kishimoto has a spine made of wet noodles because he allowed a vocal minority, his otaku editors and a single Youtube video from some idiotic fanboy to sway him. 

 

And Analyzer, what's silly and absurd isn't the arguments and accompanied evidence raised before you, but your extremely unhealthy denial and desire for attention from our community. 

That is true NH/Hinata fans feel that they are Entitled to getting what they want, but we can keep trying to use what we all know and that the ending is bad and this is not just the fact that Naruto is a bad dad Sakura growth was destroyed. But again and again pro-enders keep talking BS while all they care about was one thing Hinata getting her man. Well I just have one thing to say on that.

 

[Kagomaru]

 

 

Okay, so now Analyzer...you have just proven to me that you hate men. You are sexist against men because you don't take men's views seriously.

This is clearly a "No" from Sasuke. I mean, you can't get anymore straight forward than that and yet you are going to sit here and tell me that men's feelings don't matter and that women are the only ones who does.

 

I may hate Sasuke, but at least I know and respect the kind of character he is.

Naruto can say "I love Sakura" till he is blue in the face.....You say he doesn't know what he is talking about. (We have proven Naruto had said this on at least 3-5 occasions.)
Sasuke can say "I don't love Sakura" till he is blue in the face....and you say he doesn't know what he is talking about. (We have proven he had said this throughout the entire manga.)

So not only have you insulted me as a Naruto fan, a NS fan, my intelligence, my reading comprehension, and my friends, but now you have insulted me as a man.

This is where I finally say....I am not talking to you anymore. I have reached a new understanding that there is no talking to you. Ever. I have tried to talk to you and all you do is insult people. So, in god's name, I am done. I am done dealing with a liar and a person who just doesn't love this manga the way that we do. I am tired of dealing with people who take these manga stories and use them as nothing more than wish fullfillment.

You want to live in your word of lies and bow to Kishimoto like a god. So be it. I will live in my own world. A world where men aren't forced to be with women they don't want to be with and women aren't treated like baby making housewives who get called pathetic by their husbands.

The only thing I regret....is continuing to talk to you when I should have known better. That is my fault and I take full blame for that.

 

Hinata and her fanbase have ruined this manga. And just like how everyone hates Sakura, I will forever hate Hinata for everything she is and stands for. People may dislike this, but it is the truth and all I ask is that you respect that.

 

It's not surprising, James.   We already knew years ago that when it comes NH and SS, the feelings of the male characters don't matter.  With NaruHina, Naruto is either an expy or an object for the fans to live out their disgusting fantasies(the boys imagine themselves as Naruto because they just want to kitten Hinata and the girls sympathize with her and think she should get her man, regardless of Naruto's feelings).   SS is no different, only the fans of that twisted pairing are more callous since they will disregard both Sakura and Sasuke's feelings and interests.

[TheFirstEvil100]

It's not surprising, James.   We already knew years ago that when it comes NH and SS, the feelings of the male characters don't matter.  With NaruHina, Naruto is either an expy or an object for the fans to live out their disgusting fantasies(the boys imagine themselves as Naruto because they just want to kitten Hinata and the girls sympathize with her and think she should get her man, regardless of Naruto's feelings).   SS is no different, only the fans of that twisted pairing are more callous since they will disregard both Sakura and Sasuke's feelings and interests.

Well I have come to know that for NH they don't give a kitten on what Naruto wants cause all they care about was either living out their own as you said disgusting fantasies where they get to think its them having sex with Hinata and she will never, and I mean never back talk to Naruto and tell him what to do many males who are pro NH hate this.

 

SS well don't need to say much on that one cause we all know how kittened up that paring is, even people on youtube ones that have half a brain point out why SS is bad,

[James S Cassidy]

It's not surprising, James.   We already knew years ago that when it comes NH and SS, the feelings of the male characters don't matter.  With NaruHina, Naruto is either an expy or an object for the fans to live out their disgusting fantasies(the boys imagine themselves as Naruto because they just want to kitten Hinata and the girls sympathize with her and think she should get her man, regardless of Naruto's feelings).   SS is no different, only the fans of that twisted pairing are more callous since they will disregard both Sakura and Sasuke's feelings and interests.

I have never seen a manga or a mangaka just....grossly treat their characters like crap this way. I hope I never have to ever again. He just...didnt care. He will never care about these characters as much as we did. THis is why I still say the NS fanbase is still one of the true fans left of this series. Even if you are an NH supporter, just being an anti-ender shows that you have more knowledge of said characters than even their own writer.

How can anyone in good consious say that this was all a happy ending? I have never seen characters so miserable since looking at a Shakespeare tragedy.

And speaking of which, after relooking at it, why are these "love declarations" called "confessions?" Even Hinata's proclamation of love is called "a confession."
By definition, a confession is admitting to a crime. We confess in hoping to attain penitance.
https://www.merriam-...tionary/confess

 

So what are these characters confessing exactly?
Well, Hinata is not confessing she loves Naruto, but rather what she is confessing is how selfish she is as a person. She is extremely selfish and is extremely single minded which we know she has proven to again and again. She has proven that doesn't care about her clan, her teammates...heck I would argue even her own children are backseated to Naruto considering how she never talks to Boruto about his problems. Like her fanbase, they live in a fantasy that everything is perfect.

So what is Sakura confessing?
She is confessing that she hasn't been thinking of Naruto as much as she should have. That she hasn't really been paying attention to real factw of the matter in that they are both so focused on Sasuke that they have forgetten everything else. Which is true for both Sakura and Naruto. If the village is in danger, than Naruto will save it, but when it comes between the village and Sasuke....he will choose Sasuke over everything. If anything, Naruto needs to confess his sins as well.

We also know that Naruto was taken back by the love declaration by Sakura and it was only until she mentioned Sasuke did he start to have doubts. The fact that "I don't care about the promise and Sasuke means nothing" is the lie.

So when we say "fake confession" what does it actually mean? Are we talking about how she loves Naruto? Well, that's not what pertains to a confession. Are we talking about how she says "She don't care about Sasuke?" That is a lie because we know she cares about Sasuke.

So is her love declaration real? Honeslty, while on the surface it seems like it was, it might just be at the time it wasn't until kishimoto retconned it so that it was.

Again, in actual terms a confession is negative not a positive cause it always relates to a crime.

You can confess your love for someone to a third party because you are denying the other person of reciprocation,
but you declare your love for said person directly.

Tell me which one actually makes more sense
"I confess that I am in love with you."

"I confess I am only covering up the facts because I love you."

I can't in good consious say that telling someone you love them is a "confession."
 

Edited by James S Cassidy, 12 October 2017 - 08:30 PM.

[Bail o' Lies]

I think the idea, at least initially is that Hinata looks up to Naruto, wishes to be like him and greatly respects him. And when you stop and think about it, it makes sense and explains why Hinata was initially portrayed as such a minor one-note character and why it feels so awkward and contrived to elevate her into a fullblown love interest later on.

Like I said she was originally just; a kind girl that befriend Naruto that gets beaten up by Neji so people would feel interested in the Naruto vs. Neji fight. After that her role probably would have been to end up Neji's love interest and work together to end their clan's caste system. But SP fell in love with her, saw her as Naruto's perfect woman, and work hard to make her the love interest by having her show up constantly in the anime only thinking about Naruto. Eventually the NH story was dropped (due to pressure from the editors), and Neji was killed off so his blood could be the red string that binds nH together.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 12 October 2017 - 08:25 PM.

[AHK]

It's not canon. It -cannot- be canon, unless new information changes that, which is how a retcon would work. 
 
Your position is basically later material is lying, which, doesn't really work, because that would be a retcon (Which it isn't), and retcons make new canon, so even if we follow that route, it still isn't canon.
 
That's why I pretty much say it's not a debatable fact.

No, it is canon. It is a canon fact that Naruto loved Sakura. Those events I listed were precipitated on those very facts alone. Hinata was the retcon. They had to retcon that simple fact in order to make NH a reality. The entirety of the Last was about retconning what happened in the story.

The reason I say it's not a debatable fact is because it isn't. Natuto was in love with Sakura. This is as much fact as that Sasuke, Madara, and Obito were all Uchiha and were all murderers. These things aren't disputable, they are things that happened in canon.

[Illnevergiveup3]

I always looked at the meaning behind her "confession" to Sasuke in 693 differently.

[ThroughWithLove]

Like I said she was originally just; a kind girl that befriend Naruto that gets beaten up by Neji so people would feel interested in the Naruto vs. Neji fight. After that her role probably would have been to end up Neji's love interest and work together to end their clan's caste system. But SP fell in love with her, saw her as Naruto's perfect woman, and work hard to make her the love interest by having her show up constantly in the anime only thinking about Naruto. Eventually the NH story was dropped (due to pressure from the editors), and Neji was killed off so his blood could be the red string that binds nH together.

 

Pretty much. If Kishimoto wanted to go the analyzer fanfic route, it would've been easy. Cut Sakura out of the Gaara battle and sub Hinata in instead. Remove the POAL and make Hinata the new member of Team 7 as opposed to Sai. Planned all along my @ss! 

[winter-serenade]

Some points Id like to make.

1. Hinata has only been on 40 pages, I researched. Im not sure about panels so I made a mistake there.

2. According to the data book, Hinata, up to the Pain arc, was not in love with Naruto, but rather infatuated with him, according to this.

3. According to the Naruto Wiki: Killer B falls victim to the Infinite Tsukuyomi AFTER surviving the tailed beast extraction. Because his tailed beast was extracted, he became trapped inside the genjutsu.

4. Of course Naruto resembles both of his parents, well, because theyre his parents. However, he has been shown to mirror Minato more so than his mother. Hinata doesnt not resemble Minato. She is quite submissive and has never, if not once, objected to a decision Naruto has made. It has been implied that Minato had gotten into arguments with Kushina before as shown here:

 D7D520A1-1CB6-49CC-8183-A36236646578.jpeg   227.55KB   1 downloads

[AHK]

Okay, but, even if we go with the retcon theory, which I strongly disagree with, it means its canon. That's my point. You have to acknowledge at least that much.

It isn't a theory, don't really care if you disagree as it's a fact, and whatever point you were trying to make is irrelevant because the entire discussion we were having circled around whether Naruto loved Sakura which was a fact. Retcons aside, Naruto loved Sakura. There is no refuting that.

[winter-serenade]

My evidence for point 2.

 75DB99E8-67C8-4250-9221-90346954B0ED.jpeg   171.09KB   0 downloads

Im limited on the amount of Kilobytes I can upload.

[My Living Curse]

It isn't a theory, don't really care if you disagree as it's a fact, and whatever point you were trying to make is irrelevant because the entire discussion we were having circled around whether Naruto loved Sakura which was a fact. Retcons aside, Naruto loved Sakura. There is no refuting that.

 

At this point its all about unpleasant truths vs. comforting lies. As long as their pairing is canon, nothing else matters. But the thing is, Naruto was never a shoujo, or even supposed to be about pairings.

 

Then again. Naruto was originally supposed to be about ninjas and rising to the top from nothing to achieve your dreams. Not to be a cheap DBZ ripoff, with glowy super saiyan forms, biju bomb spam, and Otsutsuki moon/mars invasion troopers. Top quality stuff, huh? 

[NarutoUzumaki01]

Analyzer route is the route the manga took, by the way. Plenty of clues to foreshadow what happened. 

Go learn the meaning of words "foreshedowing" and "retcon" than come back.

Edited by NarutoUzumaki01, 12 October 2017 - 10:53 PM.

[Yojeveka]

As long as she thinks she's right, she won't leave this place. Even if her obsession to quote and disagree with every single post is getting annoying. 

[Nostradamus]

As long as she thinks she's right, she won't leave this place. Even if her obsession to quote and disagree with every single post is getting annoying. 

Exactly.

I say this is describes her thinking pretty accurately with an exception:

The exception being that she can't see that she's the one wrong.