227 replies to this topic

[TouKen4Life3g]

A lot of stronger moments could help. Actually, a lot if done right. She just had one, and then you wait for a long, long time until she reduced back to a cheerleader. It's rather unbelievable.

[Phantom_999]

This sums up the pairings and all Post ending interviews with Kishkittens perfectly. It is shallow and will ALWAYS be shallow. The pairings are shallow, the story is shallow, his reasoning is shallow, and I'm sure his wife and kids think, nay, KNOW he is shallow at this point. Not because of him making this atrocious ending or these garbage pairings but that  he would not stick up for his true intentions and ideas when it REALLY mattered. Instead of giving IN to the hatred of Sakura, why didn't he even bother making her a proper heroine? By that I meant he had the proper components for her set up, but he needed to 1) make her aproper fighter that could stand her ground with her OP teammates and not regress to a cheerleader like the rest of the K11, fighting off Fodder, and 2) GET RID OF HER SELFISH FRAILTY AND LACK OF GRIT/ MORAL CHARACTER in front of "Sasuke-kyunn!!!!!" Does he even know WHY Sakura is so hated and little girls say they will never look to his Sakura as a role model? Because he made her into a shallow ideal that a girl must worship and be in love with a "hot guy" for no reason than other than that he is a "hot guy" It must be indoctrinated in Sakura that she must be inlove with Sasuke for his hot looks and not his personality (which by the way is practically non-existent) and his lack of care for her. Even little girls know that you you genuinely wouldn't love a boy if he treated you like kitten and emotionally abuses you (WHICH BY the way there are several examples of that prominent in the manga itself) On top of trying to kill you. to any true fan that sees this abuse for what it truly is, Sakura is insane and emotionally needy then apparently, in contrast to how she feels with Naruto which is independent, willful and free to speak her mind which is an equal relationship.

 

The biggest irony here is that Sakura was actually supposed to be "deconstructing" the "wanting the bad boy" trope. But she got with him anyway which made the message fall flat, and deserve to be a punch line in a joke.   

Edited by Phantom_999, 15 February 2017 - 09:41 AM.

[James S Cassidy]

Sure, he can. Was he not involved in the writing of the Last? That completely rewrote 15 years of development when it said Naruto's feelings were just part of his rivalry with Sasuke. It may be inconsistent, it may be crap, but as far as the story is concerned, it's canon. Boruto, which has his seal of approval, has done the same thing.

You can't erase the memories that they already established nor the books he had written over that 15 years.

Kishimoto can say that Naruto didn't care about Sasuke at all at this point, but read the manga and all you see is Naruto having a Sasuke obsession. You can even make a panel where Naruto says "I never cared about Sasuke at all. I just didn't want to be seen as a liar. Sasuke was never my best friend," but people will still remember things like the "Sasuke retrieval arc."

It is sort of like Disney and Star Wars. They had this whole expansive universe for Star Wars with most of it actually being canon at the time. Disney then decides to erase everything and expand the universe in their own way. However, the Star Wars fans don't want to give up the EU despite Disney saying it is not canon because this is what the fans are passionate about.

Kishimoto can say or change in future establishments as much as he wants, but the fans themselves will continue to know the truth. You can't "retcon" the memories of his own fans no matter how hard he tries.

[soraandven]

You can't erase the memories that they already established nor the books he had written over that 15 years.

Kishimoto can say that Naruto didn't care about Sasuke at all at this point, but read the manga and all you see is Naruto having a Sasuke obsession. You can even make a panel where Naruto says "I never cared about Sasuke at all. I just didn't want to be seen as a liar. Sasuke was never my best friend," but people will still remember things like the "Sasuke retrieval arc."

It is sort of like Disney and Star Wars. They had this whole expansive universe for Star Wars with most of it actually being canon at the time. Disney then decides to erase everything and expand the universe in their own way. However, the Star Wars fans don't want to give up the EU despite Disney saying it is not canon because this is what the fans are passionate about.

Kishimoto can say or change in future establishments as much as he wants, but the fans themselves will continue to know the truth. You can't "retcon" the memories of his own fans no matter how hard he tries.

yeah retcons can go either good or bad in this case it was bad

[Bail o' Lies]

So since there have been 9 chapters so far, and they been having 3 chapter volume. We are going to get the third volume this month, probably this week looking at the calender. Which means next week we can see how much the numbers have "improved."

[NeonRanger]

This sums up the pairings and all Post ending interviews with Kishkittens perfectly. It is shallow and will ALWAYS be shallow. The pairings are shallow, the story is shallow, his reasoning is shallow, and I'm sure his wife and kids think, nay, KNOW he is shallow at this point. Not because of him making this atrocious ending or these garbage pairings but that  he would not stick up for his true intentions and ideas when it REALLY mattered. Instead of giving IN to the hatred of Sakura, why didn't he even bother making her a proper heroine? By that I meant he had the proper components for her set up, but he needed to 1) make her aproper fighter that could stand her ground with her OP teammates and not regress to a cheerleader like the rest of the K11, fighting off Fodder, and 2) GET RID OF HER SELFISH FRAILTY AND LACK OF GRIT/ MORAL CHARACTER in front of "Sasuke-kyunn!!!!!" Does he even know WHY Sakura is so hated and little girls say they will never look to his Sakura as a role model? Because he made her into a shallow ideal that a girl must worship and be in love with a "hot guy" for no reason than other than that he is a "hot guy" It must be indoctrinated in Sakura that she must be inlove with Sasuke for his hot looks and not his personality (which by the way is practically non-existent) and his lack of care for her. Even little girls know that you you genuinely wouldn't love a boy if he treated you like kitten and emotionally abuses you (WHICH BY the way there are several examples of that prominent in the manga itself) On top of trying to kill you. to any true fan that sees this abuse for what it truly is, Sakura is insane and emotionally needy then apparently, in contrast to how she feels with Naruto which is independent, willful and free to speak her mind which is an equal relationship.

 

The biggest irony here is that Sakura was actually supposed to be "deconstructing" the "wanting the bad boy" trope. But she got with him anyway which made the message fall flat, and deserve to be a punch line in a joke.   

 

I'm not going to defend Kishi, but I'm also not going to put 100% of the blame all one him: 

 

Your points would make a lot more sense if Hinata received the same backlash.  

 

If fans hated Sakura for being all, "Sasuke-kun", then why is Hinata being adored for her love, "Naruto-kun"? (Even then, Sakura wasn't all "Sasuke-kun" 100% of the manga compared to Hinata's "Naruto-kun" moments.) 

Fans hated Sakura for being a "cheerleader", yet adored Hinata, who, in canon, did not mind at all taking on a supportive role.Fans complain about Sakura not being a heroine, yet prefer (and with some, believe) that Hinata would be a better heroine.Fans hated Sakura for a lack of importance in the manga, yet the Naruto would have been dead if it wasn't for Hinata's importance. Fans complain about Sakura being a housewife, but they ignore Hinata who is also a housewife. Though, I don't mind this argument--

. 

(I find Hinata doing anything other than being a housewife or owning a small knitting shop in the village as OOC. Hinata showed NO interest whatsoever in continuing on the kunoichi path, let alone Hyuga leader. Even before the ending, I always pictured her as a housewife or a villager who owns a small shop while Neji (then later on Hanabi, after his death) takes over the role in changing the ideas of the Hyuga. I wish some fans would understand that with characters like Hinata, the housewife roles are IC compared to characters like Sakura who clearly was written in the manga as wanting to accomplish more than being a housewife. Sorry for the mini rant.)

 

--but the complaints are more so meant to degrade Sakura while lifting Hinata up, than actual disappointment. 

 

Fans say that they would like Sakura more if Kishi gave her a background story, yet for some reason that are willing to accept retcons and fillers that involve Hinata's background. (Or course she was the first acknowledge Naruto. not Iruka at all.)

 

There is no other reason for the Sakura hate other than her "tsundere" personality. For majority, she's a kitten.

 

We can say Sakura is hated because of SS, yet both SS and SNS are the most popular parings in Naruto. We can say that SS and SNS fans self insert, yet during the time Gaiden was out, fans had more sympathy towards Sasuke than Sakura rather than the other way around. In fact, Sasuke is popular with most casual fans because he's a kitten. We can say that Sakura acts needy and dependent and submissive and all that towards Sasuke, but yet not many fans have an issue with Hinata who is even more needy and dependent and submissive. "Naruto never tried to stab Hinata." But, like I said, both SNS and SS are popular ships; Sasuke attempted to kill Naruto more than once, but Naruto hasn't received the same amount of backlash that Sakura gets on a daily basis for still being all about Sasuke. Is it because Sakura never fought back? Yet, a lot of fans complained how Sakura became there least favorite when she tried an attempt a kill on Sasuke during the Five Kage Arc (she didn't even succeed because she cared about Sasuke). You have fans who bash Sakura for being useless, but praise Hinata for even the most insignificant of moments. Fans that call Sakura a kitten, but love Sasuke for being "that kitten". Fans who believe that removing Sakura will change nothing nothing in the manga, yet believe that Naruto wouldn't have made it this far if it wasn't for Hinata.

 

Fans today still blame Sakura on Neji's death. Sakura is the go to for hate when it comes to the flaws of their faves. Sakura is hated for reasons where if other faves have done or struggle with, fans would be okay with or admire or shrug and ignore about. When you have a fandom like that, with Studio Perriot and Shueisha and editors obvious bias for NH, with Hinata's sudden increase in popularity, I'm not surprised if he gave up on Sakura. I can only blame Kishi for being soft, and not assertive like other mangakas when it comes to their works. 

 

To be honest, I wouldn't mind SS if part 2 SS was anything like Part 1 SS. Sasuke just became more of kitten as the manga continued, and I still don't understand the appeal that personality when it comes to fans.

Edited by NeonRanger, 15 February 2017 - 03:04 PM.

[Phantom_999]

Well fair enough, I admit that is my personal bias there. But I'm not changing my stance on that because As you've said Sakura would recieve hate anyway from all the Hinata lovers out there, but would that BETTER her character? I would think so, and again I'm bringing back the reason I was making the argument for this in the first place. Kishi gave up on trying to make Sakura the "heroine" of the story because fans kept hating on her so I won't fault him for that, but what I AM faulting him for is that he was defending Sakura and insisting she was the heroine of the story way before this ending, yet he was going on about it in the same predictable formula with her being the obsessive "Sasuke-kun fan girl" she's always been, which is not only not changing people's views on Sakura but is further justifying it.

 

Now It is true, even if he DID do as I have said, it would not guarantee Sakura would be better well recieved but at least he would have turned her into a proper heroine like she SHOULD HAVE BEEN. This interview is laughable to me not because of what he said but because it shows he gave up without bothering to try. He never asked how he could have gone about it differently with Sakura because he had to put Sakura in that same mindset since the beginning, A Mindless Sasuke fan girl. That is why so many people were telling him Sakura was not heroine material, because he did not bother to change her, or when he DID that devlopment went through the wringer and he's back to square one again. So the fact that many people, not just the Sakura haters don't see Sakura as a proper Heroine is on him none-the less. Again, He didn't even bother to try. Or should I say never even tried SEEING HIS EFFORT THROUGH, so the blame is pretty well deserved, even if not 100% justified 

Edited by Phantom_999, 26 February 2017 - 08:43 PM.

[NaruSaku fan in Kentucky]

What? They blame Sakura for Neji's death? Why?

[NeonRanger]

No, I wasn't disagreeing with your post, I mainly wanted wanted to go further on how Sakura  and development weren't the sole reason for the Sakura hate. I've seen fans who ship SK aand hate Sakura because she was an abusive character towards Naruto. 

 

You're right; if Sakura was more developed she would probably had a better fanbase. Yes, fans were telling him that Sakura wasn't a proper heroine, but they also told him that Hinata would have made a better heroine and that she was more so a heroine than Sakura. And do you see Hinata acting Heroine-like in the the manga?

 

As for Kishi making no effort: I believed that he did, but gave up. I saw no regression in Sakura from Part 2 til the end of the Pain Arc. I saw small issues here and there, but not compared to what came after for Sakura. I'm saying for all we know fans still continued to hate Sakura after her the potential that Kishi had gave her (like her fight with Sasori), and realized that Sakura would be hated no matter what he does with her, which is why he dropped her. He gave us genuine Sakura and especially NS moments during the first half of Part 2; even his wife supported NS and Sakura. Of course he's doing damage control, but honestly I'm more convinced that fans (and his editors) pushed Kishi into the idea that Sakura was going to be a lost cause not matter what and you should focus on SNS (and Hinata). 

 

I know that blame is deserved. Like I said, I blame Kishi for being weak and not assertive. Kishi is more of a pushover; he mentioned the convincing he had to go through just for his editor to approve of the harem scene. If Kishi had a backbone like Oda, I can easily see the manga going a different direction. I'm not saying the hate was unjustified on Kishi. I mainly see Sakura fans especially just automatically pointing 100% of the finger at Kishi saying that he should be a better writer and he hates Sakura and whatnot. Even though I agree with blaming on Kishi, I feel like some fans are not aware that outside factors also played a huge factor in Sakura's development. Kishi confirmed in the Gaiden interview that fans believed that Sarada was Karin's mother. Not how Sakura ending up as a housewife or issues with many other plot holes, but if Sasuke cheated on Sakura. Then you have fans (NH I've seen especially) disappointed that it wasn't the case. I know Sakura was hated, but the idea of Karin being the mother only makes Sakura look more pathetic and desperate in the end. After the ending, Sakura was a housewife. Even though her development went backwards, she could still be defended, up until Gaiden and since then the interviews. The fact that people really think that little of a character is sad no matter who much you dislike the character.

 

I justify the Kishi hate with Sakura. But I'm not surprise that he no longer cares for her anymore. If you notice in every new project, interview, side stories, etc. that involves Hinata and Sakura, Sakura gets the stick. So you can see were the majority lies. Fans had no issue with Hinata being the new Heroine, Hinta having her own special projects, Hinata suddenly becoming more in your face than before the ending. The hate for Kishi is right, but having a shallow fan base like Naruto's only gave Kishi the more so reason to go through with Sakura's regression. Kishi played the part, but a good amount of fans had no problem with it, so he continued. 

 

Sorry, I wasn't specifically addressing you. I just went into a ranting mode, ha. 

Edited by NeonRanger, 15 February 2017 - 05:13 PM.

[NeonRanger]

What? They blame Sakura for Neji's death? Why?

 

Because Sakura is a medical ninja and whatnot, honestly I questioned why too. But I got curious and decided to follow the discourse between the NH and SS shippers. An NH shipper mention how Neji wouldn't have died if it wasn't for Sakura and soon became and Hinata vs. Sakura fight. This argument was brought up before the ending and I guess someone brought it up again. I never took it serious and assume that it was a troll, but she was a genuine anti-Sakura fan. 

 

Edit: this had happen when Hinata was called the New Heroine during the Boruto SD short. 

Edited by NeonRanger, 15 February 2017 - 05:26 PM.

[Bail o' Lies]

What? They blame Sakura for Neji's death? Why?

They didn't want to pin the death on hinata. Since you know he sacrificed his life to save hers. So they instead say that Sakura if she such a great healer should have been able to revive Neji. They immediately started to spin this tale once Neji died. "It can't be Hinata's fault cause she can do no wrong, so it must be Sakura's fault." The logic of her fanbase.

 

It is the same with them immediately going off on Sakura "Fake confession."

 

Kishimoto did not devolve Sakura until after the pein arc because he had no reason to. She was the heroine and both he & yahagi agreed on that. But once the new editors came in convince that hinata should become the heroine the process slowly happened over time. Till we reached what happened at the end. 

[VoodooFX]

.... fans still continued to hate Sakura after her the potential that Kishi had gave her (like her fight with Sasori), and realized that Sakura would be hated no matter what he does with her, which is why he dropped her. He gave us genuine Sakura and especially NS moments during the first half of Part 2; even his wife supported NS and Sakura. Of course he's doing damage control, but honestly I'm more convinced that fans (and his editors) pushed Kishi into the idea that Sakura was going to be a lost cause not matter what and you should focus on SNS (and Hinata).

 

Well put, NeonRanger. That's exactly my stance on the matter.

Sakura didn't really have a fighting chance with such an immature fanbase ... and Kishi, being greedy and spineless like he is, said: "why bother anyway, have it your way!", took the money and ran.

[Phantom_999]

No, I wasn't disagreeing with your post, I mainly wanted wanted to go further on how Sakura  and development weren't the sole reason for the Sakura hate. I've seen fans who ship SK aand hate Sakura because she was an abusive character towards Naruto. 

 

You're right; if Sakura was more developed she would probably had a better fanbase. Yes, fans were telling him that Sakura wasn't a proper heroine, but they also told him that Hinata would have made a better heroine and that she was more so a heroine than Sakura. And do you see Hinata acting Heroine-like in the the manga?

 

As for Kishi making no effort: I believed that he did, but gave up. I saw no regression in Sakura from Part 2 til the end of the Pain Arc. I saw small issues here and there, but not compared to what came after for Sakura. I'm saying for all we know fans still continued to hate Sakura after her the potential that Kishi had gave her (like her fight with Sasori), and realized that Sakura would be hated no matter what he does with her, which is why he dropped her. He gave us genuine Sakura and especially NS moments during the first half of Part 2; even his wife supported NS and Sakura. Of course he's doing damage control, but honestly I'm more convinced that fans (and his editors) pushed Kishi into the idea that Sakura was going to be a lost cause not matter what and you should focus on SNS (and Hinata). 

 

I know that blame is deserved. Like I said, I blame Kishi for being weak and not assertive. Kishi is more of a pushover; he mentioned the convincing he had to go through just for his editor to approve of the harem scene. If Kishi had a backbone like Oda, I can easily see the manga going a different direction. I'm not saying the hate was unjustified on Kishi. I mainly see Sakura fans especially just automatically pointing 100% of the finger at Kishi saying that he should be a better writer and he hates Sakura and whatnot. Even though I agree with blaming on Kishi, I feel like some fans are not aware that outside factors also played a huge factor in Sakura's development. Kishi confirmed in the Gaiden interview that fans believed that Sarada was Karin's mother. Not how Sakura ending up as a housewife or issues with many other plot holes, but if Sasuke cheated on Sakura. Then you have fans (NH I've seen especially) disappointed that it wasn't the case. I know Sakura was hated, but the idea of Karin being the mother only makes Sakura look more pathetic and desperate in the end. After the ending, Sakura was a housewife. Even though her development went backwards, she could still be defended, up until Gaiden and since then the interviews. The fact that people really think that little of a character is sad no matter who much you dislike the character.

 

I justify the Kishi hate with Sakura. But I'm not surprise that he no longer cares for her anymore. If you notice in every new project, interview, side stories, etc. that involves Hinata and Sakura, Sakura gets the stick. So you can see were the majority lies. Fans had no issue with Hinata being the new Heroine, Hinta having her own special projects, Hinata suddenly becoming more in your face than before the ending. The hate for Kishi is right, but having a shallow fan base like Naruto's only gave Kishi the more so reason to go through with Sakura's regression. Kishi played the part, but a good amount of fans had no problem with it, so he continued. 

 

Sorry, I wasn't specifically addressing you. I just went into a ranting mode, ha. 

 

Ah, okay then But well said

[totherpage95]

What? They blame Sakura for Neji's death? Why?

people think sakura being a healer means she's jesus neji was already too badly wounded 

[sushi.]

people think sakura being a healer means she's jesus neji was already too badly wounded 

Yeah his wounds were as big as Asuma's and Sakura didn't have her seal yet - but had Kishi wanted it, he would've made her save him. He didn't because plot. He wanted a death, not a heroine moment. But there was nothing leading up to Neji's death, Kishi just suddenly decided "ok im gonna kill him off" in one chapter. If you skip the chapter before and a couple after you wouldn't notice a damn thing..it was so out of the blue.

 

The way he wrote his death, it was Hinata's fault actually.. I just don't blame her personally because it didn't make any sense. But, let's be real here she stopped using her jutsu to block the sticks, then spread out her arms to commit suicide(again) for Naruto, but Neji ended up doing it instead.. yet they blame the one 2km away OK

 

No point arguing with that, it's irrational. One can discuss with logic and ideas, but not with feelings. We feel what we want to feel and they hate Sakura because they want to.

[Gravenimage]

What? They blame Sakura for Neji's death? Why?

 

Yet they ignored the fact that she healed Hinata when Pain stabbed her. And they're even NH fans who say that even if Sakura couldn't heal Hinata, if she dies she would have been brought back by Pain's jutsu.

[ichigo500]

I've been disconnected of all this naruto kitten for a long time (too busy reading real mangas), and today, I heard about this interview, and it made me laugh again: they're still talking about pairings, even 2-3 years after the ending: it's another proof of the poor writing kishi did when "developing" the pairings. 

When you want to add some "spice" while developing a pairing (here naruhina) by adding another character (Sakura), the additional character isn't supposed to appear 10 times more than the main love interest.. even in shojo mangas, the additional character is supposed to disappear/ give up after a short time.

Time passes and Kishi remains as stupid as he used to be.

[ultranx]

firstevil age has nothing to do with why he's an idiot, he's just an idiot. I'm a year older than him and I'm not that stupid.

I bet he likes trump too lmao hes just like him, super childish sexist and a big fat liar xd

he isn't sexist,  in his live speech yesterday he revealed all his work on keeping his promises, he has been working with the prime minister of canada to help ensure that women entrepreneurs have access to the networks, markets and capital they need to start a business and live out their financial dreams. why would he help women if he was sexist towards them?

 

but enough of the political nonsense though.

 

anyways its ironic they're still bashing fans 2 years after the ending even when those fans have already left to do other things in life. naruto will always be crap compared to other series now I guess, since they'll never learn.

Edited by ultranx, 01 March 2017 - 01:42 PM.

[sushi.]

firstevil age has nothing to do with why he's an idiot, he's just an idiot. I'm a year older than him and I'm not that stupid.
he isn't sexist,  in his live speech yesterday he revealed all his work on keeping his promises, he has been working with the prime minister of canada to help ensure that women entrepreneurs have access to the networks, markets and capital they need to start a business and live out their financial dreams. why would he help women if he was sexist towards them?
 
but enough of the political nonsense though.
 
anyways its ironic they're still bashing fans 2 years after the ending even when those fans have already left to do other things in life. naruto will always be crap compared to other series now I guess, since they'll never learn.

You're a bit late to the party man..

Mods already said don't discuss politics here. So idk why you argued against a month old joke and then said 'but enough with politics' ? Don't fight me and silence me in the same breath.

smh

[Illnevergiveup3]

lol, this guy is thousands of miles away from me and I can just feel the guilt radiating off him. Eventually, he'll crack.