184 replies to this topic

[ree]

 

Nay. The correct understanding would be: Stating something that cannot be proven, does not make it fact.

 

 

1: Largely yes, with editor suggestions. That's...how things have more or less gone? Editors give and suggest ideas to what is planned by Kishi, and he rejects or implements them. He is the executor, so the large final idea you see is his.

 

2: Considering "Getting boring" is a subjective element, isn't this about the story holding your interest? It seems odd to equate it to a phrase, though it is perfectly fine to find Naruto "boring". 

 

3: This is not true. This is, for 2 reasons:

 

A: No one in Taka had development, really. Point A Karin for example, was largely the same as Point B Karin. These characters also have little to no relevance to Naruto directly. They're filler characters for Sasuke, not a term of quality so much as purpose, they support Sasuke, a non-protagonist. They didn't have loose ends. 

 

B: These characters's endings were further established in later mediums...and there really isn't any significant change for them for team Taka. The only change is Orochimaru isn't threatening anyone mind, just doing experiments, but under watch of Yamato. 

 

As a bonus, it's never required to show every minor character, particularly when they are not relevant to the Main Character's Ending world, or don't have ties left to resolve. We don't see Hiashi, who fought in the war at 700.

 

Thus, notably, the Main Characters, and Main Supporting Characters are visible and wrapped up at the end. 

 

As you say, in Spanish we have a  expression, a buen entendedor pocas palabras, and it's the case so whatrever

     

[ThroughWithLove]

James's interpretations are even more off. I find it strikingly odd that people turn to point fingers first at the author, without trying to understand the material first. They instead will -create- subtext of the worst sort, to believe it. I don't expect these people to change their mind either, but it's a bit disappointing. 

 

I'm not the one who created the nonsense idea of Naruto being at work all the time despite not needing to be. Nor did I create the scenes with the alcohol, sleeping on the couch or not having time for the family. All of that is canon. Shift your disappointment towards the people who actually came up with this crud. And excuse me if I'm too genre savvy not to recognize all-too-common premises for affair stories when I see them. Maybe the writers shouldn't have slapped and slopped this story together with no concern for artistic integrity? 

 

Not that I'm really surprised. Anyone who allows something like "The dude who totally murdered my parents is the coolest guy ever!" into the final draft is definitely tone-deaf towards subtext and is just there for a paycheck.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 19 August 2017 - 03:27 AM.

[ThroughWithLove]

The context is Naruto having a problem he should not be having based on the abilities he's displayed in the original manga. On the one hand, we could interpret this as a plot hole. On the other hand, we could surmise that maybe Nature uses work as an excuse and is just not happy with his marriage. The alcohol usage is perhaps a coping mechanism. And maybe there's more to sleeping on the couch than meets the eye. In other words, subtext. On the third hand, we could just pretend this series has no plot holes, that NH is the greatest piece of literary romance since Romeo and Juliet and that anyone who says otherwise is "objectively lying."

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 19 August 2017 - 05:16 AM.

[lupina]

 

 

First off, yes, this "subtext" is the only way you can twist the views to fit your idea. Because Alcohol bottles (How many times do we even see that) equate misery, instant ramen equates not eating at home, rather than, trying to fit in a quick meal, no time for his son, because he doesn't yet have the balance between work and home, which is resolved by the way by the end of Boruto, and...he came home drunk and slept on the couch once.

 

When you feel the need to drink alcohol at your workplace, you have a massive problem. Or do you honestly disagree with that? 

As far as I know, Hinata does not have any other responsibility than taking care of the house, the children and her husband, and she does not manage to make Lunch for Naruto?

I asked if there were more scenes between Naruto and Hinata on wich we can draw more conclusions on what their relationship/familylife looks like. You didn't name any, so I guess there are none, wich speaks volumes to me. 

[ThroughWithLove]

This has major issues though, because you have no marital problems to attribute it with. You only have one issue: Naruto balancing work and life. That we see Hinata support Naruto and explain it to Boruto puts a hole in this. As Alcohol is actually allowed in work places and served at business meetings even makes the alcohol part silly that we think it is  drunkenness, particularly since no problem of that nature is ever attributed to. As he was sleeping on the couch after he came back from a party drunk makes plenty sense. 

 

The problem with subtext is you are twisting non-deep things to have deep things that attribute to your already shaky position. Yes, you are objectively lying. That you continue to do so, is a bit of a disappointment. No one is saying that NH is the greatest piece of literature, that is you. 

 

Naruto's so-called issues of "balancing work and life" are issues he could easily resolve with abilities he's played throughout the original manga. That there is even an issue creates a plot hole (bad writing) or allows us to interpret his marriage in a fashion much like that which James' has espoused (toxic). I've explained this and you continue to ignore it. So perhaps the one objectively lying is you.

 

Throw in the alcohol and couch sleeping and we can perceive the picture of a man who hides from his wife and children with flimsy excuses like having too much to work to do, despite having the ability to process years of information in a couple of hours fueled by nothing but a bowl of ramen. We see the picture of a man who hides in his office day in and day out, slobbing down countless packs of instant ramen; too disgusted to eat the food his wife prepares and slaves over for him every day. We a see the picture of  a man who then washes down said ramen with all the sake a man can afford on the Hokage's salary. We see the picture of a man who has to make up excuses to avoid sleeping in the same bed with his own wife. We see the picture of a man who, in his own passive aggression towards his life, dispelled a shadow clone at his own daughter's birthday party. We see a man who wonders what ever possessed him to marry someone out of pity. We see the picture of a man who writhes in anger every time someone comments on how perfect he is with the weird girl he picked, contrary to his mother's wishes. We see the picture of a man who wonders why the hell he ever took relationship advice from Sakura, a girl who can't even run her own marriage with any success. We see the picture of a man who is tired of living a lie. We see the picture of a man who longs for simpler times; the good ole days.  This man. This is the man we see a picture of:

 

: 

 

Bottoms up.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 19 August 2017 - 03:39 PM.

[sushi.]

Look I won't say that my dad never came home drunk after partying with his job, or that he isn't busy, but what is displayed in Burrito right now is somethin I've never seen in Naruto or even other shonen stories before. A man who drinks alone in his office, sleeps there and doesn't eat his wife's bento..it's all very unlike the shonen genre and Kishimoto's style.

 

We've seen the lives of numerous hokages and none of them had this storyline of balancing work and homelife. Tsunade was a sensei, hokage, and she managed a hospital. Hiruzen and Hashirama are remembered as good parents/grandparents.

 

So it's not farfetched to conclude that Naruto is purposely avoiding his family. We don't know about NH's relationship in Burrito but from what we've seen Hinata is trying and failing to reach out to Naruto. The movie ends on a positive note giving the impression that he'll try to be better, but we don't actually see that, and we don't see Hinata's attempts go through Naruto at all.

[Qia]

Everytime I think of NH I think of that one scene in part 1 where they literally have an awkward silence moment. Lmao. That was still funny the second time around.

[ThroughWithLove]

Look, I get that this suggestion about NH being toxic royally triggers you, but calling people liars, calling people immature and accusing them of bashing other fanbases is a tad bit extreme if not outright hysterical simply in response to someone simply disagreeing with you. I think you need to calm down. Turn off the computer for a bit. Maybe try some deep breathing exercises. Read some NH fanfics and whatever else relaxes you. Life is too short to be consumed by your own anger. Trust me. 

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 19 August 2017 - 07:25 PM.

[Qia]

 

I'm loath to what call what is presented a suggestion, becauseI find it practical bashing, and twisting subtext, but worse, it has no foundation of fact or merit. 

 

That said, I'm not upset, nor triggered. I enjoy discussion, and discuss what is presented accordingly. As much as you want to believe, I don't go and read NH fanfics, and I'm pretty picky about NS Fanfics. 

The thing is...and this isn't just to you in particular. I said this to someone else before. Everyone has a right to an opinion. Everyone. And saying they should see a particular story or aspect of a story one way, which is your way, and if they don't accuse them of "objectively lying" or having a "low reading comprehension" or things along that line is downright disrespectful. Let.people.have.their.opinions. If it helps them feel better about themselves, and it's not hurting anyone else, then it really shouldn't be a problem. You're literally the only person I know who would be offended by the fact that someone makes things up about a fictional ship. No one's saying you have to agree with the opinion but you need to accept people have a right to one, even you. So if someone here decides to take a particular detail in the story and make one of their own, then fine. Perhaps this is just their way of dealing with the frustration that this story caused so many people, not just shippers. Let them deal with it in their own way. Don't belittle them and make them feel like they can't make things up. This is just a story after all. Stories are meant to inspire people in different ways. 

Edited by Qia, 19 August 2017 - 08:20 PM.

[ThroughWithLove]

 

That said, I'm not upset, nor triggered. 

 

The real tip off for me was when you made that comment about me allegedly bashing another fanbase. Like . . . I've done that nowhere in this thread. So the only conclusion I'm left to reach was that you took it as a personal attack when this talk about NH being toxic came up. In other words . . . triggered. 

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 19 August 2017 - 09:43 PM.

[sushi.]

 
I meant pairing, not fanbase, in this instance. 

I don't see how it makes a difference..

Thats like I say I didn't like this applepie and you say it's pear, but it still tasted bad anyhow.

[Qia]

 

I meant pairing, not fanbase, in this instance. 

So people aren't allowed to bash fictional relationships they don't support?  Even if it's just out of frustration and, thus, not the greatest reasoning? That seems a little too controlling if that's the case.  Especially when we're on a site that supports mainly one ship and that ship supposed the one under fire. Not sure why this is surprising? The entire fandom is like this when once you get to know it. 

Edited by Qia, 20 August 2017 - 01:48 AM.

[James S Cassidy]

Okay, so I see people are putting words in my mouth and obviously not going where I am getting at, but whatever.

First Analyzer, you want to call me a liar for my opinion? Fine, but you're a liar every time you say you are a NaruSaku fan and I will stand by this fact in that you have shown no...I'm sorry what was that word?.....oh yeah...OBJECTIVE FACTS that prove you're a NaruSaku fan. Mods and admins be damned. That's all I am going to say. You have started this all based on a lie right off the bat. So no, your words to me mean about as little as a termite means to a meteor.

As for the rest, what the hell are you all talking about? I don't believe I said anything about NH being a "toxic" relationship, but I did say it was unhealthy....and it is. It absolutely is simply based on several key features, Naruto's lifestyle, his children's opinion of him, and so much more, but while everyone else excuses Boruto's rantings as nothing more than a mere brat throwing a temper tanturm, I see as more of something else. We are not born with personality, we make one based on our environment around us. If Boruto

And again, if you can't see what I see....then some of you need to actually look at how both good and bad relationships work in the real world. Which, Analyzer, is how stories are based on in premise. Even the most outrageous stories have a slight handling of realism or acknowledgement of realism to help connect the reader to the story itself.

Otherwise, as one Naruto fan put it," I guess Naruto doesn't know how babies are made because I guess Hyuga give birth by laying eggs." And if you want to say that that is how they gave birth, then fine, but don't sit here and say it is a "natural progression of relationships," because I hate to tell you...and pratically anyone here...that that is NOT how relationships work.

By the way, I am an NH fan. (How many word believe this if I said it?)
 

We haven't been shown anything in the manga that there is anything toxic or unhealthy about their relationship. You can argue that it's not believable that they would end up together, but at the end of the day if it's your opinion then it's subjective. Granted, I've never seen anyone use the term that way -objectively lying- but I believe what she means is that it's James subjectivity, not fact. 

NH or SS? Because if you don't see anything, then where have you been?

NH is an unhealthy relationship. Not because of abuse, but rather because of neglect and being in misery. It happens. YOU CAN FALL OUT OF LOVE PEOPLE. I am not sure why this is such a hard concept to grasp or understand. How many here have actually dated or been in relationships before? How many had crushes that faded after a while because you realized who they really are as a person? How many, after a while, took off their rose-colored glasses and thought that maybe the relationship they are in is just not that great?

Been there, done that.

It happens. What makes NH unhealthy is not what the relationship is, but rather what it isn't. There is NOTHING to prove to me that Naruto loves Hinata and in fact all the proof that he is living a lie the whole time.

Objective facts:

-Naruto never talks anything good about Hinata. I have seen talk good about Sakura to Salad.
-Naruto never "hangs out" with Hinata. Regardless of what you guys think, girls are people too and they enjoy nights on the town to unwind as well, the fact that Hinata is never seen with Hinata on a night on the town AFTER they are married frightens me. I have seen real married couples go dancing, having a good time, and so much more. These relationships last forever.
-Naruto never thinks about Hinata at all. Not on whims, not even paying attention to Boruto when Hinata supposedly "made him lunch" and he left without it. It was Salad that had to give it to him cause he paid attention to her.
-Naruto is too busy to spend time with his kid, but will immediately drop everything to be with Sasuke no matter how busy he is.

There are so many more objective facts that prove much more than you believe and I am sorry, but I don't "fill in the blanks off screen." On panel or GTFO.

So no, NH is not toxic, but it is NOT a healthy relationship either. It is just there. Nothing more, nothing less. Romeo and Roasaline from Romeo and Juliet wasn't a healthy relationship despite not seeing anything on screen because we see how Romeo acts and how he perceives Rosaline.

Romeo: Out of her favour,  where I am in love.

I don't think anyone here is saying "Gee, I wonder if Romeo and Rosaline have a healthy relationship?"

If you are not in love with said person, it is an unhealthy relationship because you are living a lie. It has been proven time and time again that this kind of relationship is what causes cheating and the like.

Look at the song: Pina Coladas by Rupert Holmes
In the song the singer expresses how his relationship is not working well and wanted to escape to something better. His wife, in turn, was doing the same. The song has  a happy ending where they find out more about each other, but the song shows proof that this happens all the time. More often than you believe. Otherwise. why do you think we have things like marriage counseling and such. Sometimes it doesn't always have a happy ending.

Again, is this making sense to anyone or am I the only one who gets it?

As for SS....I mean, come on....even Kishimoto said it himself that it is absolutely not healthy and even close to toxic, but people love picking cherries. You can't make it anymore obvious than what it is.
 

 

That's true, but we ALSO haven't been shown anything in the manga to suggest either Naruto or Hinata are happy with their current relationship.
Barring The Last Retcon, is Naruto ever shown saying I love you to his wife? Is Naruto ever shown kissing, hugging his wife? Is Hinata ever shown doing the same to Naruto? "They are married" isn't enough proof to say that they are happy together, lots of marriages in fictions, are not happy with each other and they stay together for other reasons, didn't kishi said in an interview that Bolt was the thing keeping them together???

In which case there is no FACT that says NH is a happy marriage and there is no FACT saying otherwise.
They are just opinions and to each their own.

Basically, anyone coughanalyzercough who thinks NH and SS are "healthy relationships" is mere subjective views and not objective facts. In other words, it is all "interpretation."

But I will say this, if Kishimoto and or SP or whoever is trying to convince me that this was all planned from the start, it is all healthy, AND they support these couples....it not doing a very good job and actually need to try harder.

Now matter how bad a writer you are...it is NOT hard to write a love story. I mean, just base it off your own personal experiences. For a married man like Kishimoto not being able to write romance means that you can't write personalities for people to make them seem realistic.

Like I keep saying, love is not overblown, over the top, hyper rose-colored glasses type shindig. It is more grounded, more real. It is NOT THAT HARD.

 

[ThroughWithLove]

Unhealthy. Toxic. To-may-to. To-mah-to. Doesn't change the substance of anything I said. I don't care about word debates.  There are a hundred different terms I could use and the points wouldn't change.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 22 August 2017 - 10:06 PM.

[sushi.]

Remedialaction is tumblr's biggest NH troll and bashes people, invades tags and won't stop snooping on SNS and NS shippers. Try again.

[ThroughWithLove]

 

Once again my credentials are called into question. 

 

Should I post all the artwork I've gone through or the fanfictions I read? 

 

Not spending 99% of your time here slamming the potential canonicity the pairing had while defending other pairings [(many times to the extent of flat out making stuff up, such as (1) telling us that Sakura was also raising her hand during the chuunin exams for her sake and Sasuke's or (2) passing off the idea that Naruto has loved Hinata throughout the entire manga as a fact)] would suffice. Not having a meltdown over people suggesting that NH is toxic would help as well. Actions speak a heck of a lot louder words and your actions here (especially as you started calling people liars over their opinions) wreaks strongly of a NH fangirl.  Throw in frequent condescending and passive aggressive advice like: 

 

 We were an awesome fandom once upon a time. We can be that fandom again. 

 

And you are about as believable as Kishi's post series interviews. If you come back under a new account, here's some tips on how to better maintain the guise:
 

1. Participate more in actual discussions with common ground. Don't let yourself become a meme (i.e. sushi saying "Analyze in 3 . . .2 . . . 1" ).

2. Don't use lame arguments like the ones you used to defend Kishimoto's post series interviews. Anyone with a half a brain can tell you that middle and early don't mean the same thing and no attempt to explain otherwise will net you any credibility. In that case, maybe argue something like "Well Kishimoto is forgetful! He forgot to give Naruto's kids byakugans! And it's been years since the series ended, so his memory is not bound to be 100%!"

3. Tone down on the amount of posts you make. Like seriously, 700 posts in under two months is a bit much! If you've gotta spend that much time here, at least make sure most of your comments are in discussions where there's common ground on.

4. The mock-politeness routine is a good way to avoid getting banned, but I would've gone a bit further in avoiding passive-aggression at all times. At very least, don't get carried away by calling people liars.

 

Hope that helps! 

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 23 August 2017 - 12:57 AM.

[James S Cassidy]

Unhealthy. Toxic. To-may-to. To-mah-to. Doesn't change the substance of anything I said. I don't care about word debates.  There are a hundred different terms I could use and the points wouldn't change.

 

That's like saying "poisonous" and "venomous" is the same thing....and they are not. And people can't seem to tell the difference in my post so I will explain.

Who says To-mah-to any way?
 

un·health·y

 (ŭn-hĕl′thē)

adj. un·health·i·er, un·health·i·est

1.

a. Being in a state of ill health; sick.

b. Characterized by or symptomatic of ill health: an unhealthy pallor.

c. Causing or conducive to poor health; unwholesome: an unhealthy diet.

2. Harmful to character or morality; corruptive: unhealthy reading material.

3. Characterized by or symptomatic of disturbed mental health: took an unhealthy interest in violence and fires.

4. Of a risky nature; dangerous: an unhealthy predicament.

(Number 4 fits Naruto to a Tee)

Toxic
adjective

1.

of, pertaining to, affected with, or caused by a toxin or poison:

a toxic condition.

2.

acting as or having the effect of a poison; poisonous:

a toxic drug.

3.

causing unpleasant feelings; harmful or malicious:

a toxic boyfriend; toxic criticism.

They are not the same thing.

Unhealthy means you do it to yourself. Toxic means someone else does it to you.

NH is unhealthy because Naruto didn't want to be with Hinata and settled for her and thus living a lifestyle that doesn't do any good for him. It doesn't bring any gains to him and he mostly see any additions as burdens rather than joys. (Like eating all the ice cream you want. Sounds all good at first, but then you don't want any if your forced to ONLY eat ice cream everyday.) Basically, Naruto doesn't really love Hinata and the relationship is making him live an unhealthy lifestyle...and gets away with it because Hinata won't challenge him on a personal level thus causing his children to live even unhealthier lifestyles.

SS is toxic because Sasuke has not only done physical, but also mental harm that could have some horrible affects on her being as a person and continues to do so by being a bad father and an even worse husband. Basically, because of how much Sasuke has abused Sakura, she has developed self-destructive tendencies including rage and low self-worth and causing Salad to resent her father and probably abandon him.

That's the difference. You can eat ice cream and it won't kill you usually, but make you really sick. (Unhealthy) However, toxic or poisonous will probably outright kill you if untreated or sometimes is uncurable.

Hinata is poisonous because everything she touches something bad happens to them whether due to her own hand or by way of fate. You could say she poisoned Naruto's character to be something he isn't.

Sasuke is venomous because he purposely injects negative or bad emotions into people. He does this to a  lot of characters over the course of the series and even in the end save for a few he selects not to. I guess this is why he is associated with snakes.

And you're right, it doesn't change what you said, but people have already put words in my mouth so I want to clear this up that when I talk about "Unhealthy vs Toxic" there is a MAJOR difference in my book.

 

Once again my credentials are called into question.

 

They always have and always will be. Welcome to the real world. First impressions are always the most important and the first, second, and third impressions of you don't come off as any type of NS fan. Heck, you can't even agree on anything pro-NS whatsoever. You can't even agree that Naruto was in love with Sakura. So if you can't even say "Naruto loved Sakura" without adding a "...but" in there somewhere....then your fan ship is highly questionable.

So yes, your "credentials," and I use this term lightly, are constantly called into question. You even are judging me right now as you are reading this and even if I were to try and "change your mind" about me....you already have made up your mind and that is fine. I accept it. I am not here to impress people, I am just here to be me and celebrate my love for NS. It just so happens many people agree with me.

You can post whatever you want. Heck, I even used to be a NH fan, but you probably won't believe that. I once had a folder full of NH photos, artwork, and even some fanfic I like. I can even show you the first NH pic I found and liked.

I don't think me showing you all of this will prove I am a NH fan to you....or would it?

Why did I change you might ask? I took off the rose-colored glasses and started actually reading the story.
 

Edited by James S Cassidy, 23 August 2017 - 01:28 AM.

[ThroughWithLove]

If you look at the context of my comments, my point is that we can use the material in Boruto to interpret NH as being a bad relationship. I exemplify this in my alcohol bottle posts. As such, you could hit control + F and replace the word toxic with whatever word suited your fancy (unhealthy, unwelcoming, unlikeable, turbulent, trying, difficult, etc) and it wouldn't make an ounce of a difference. This is why I don't care about semantics arguments. You can render them moot in a blink of an eye.

[James S Cassidy]

If you look at the context of my comments, my point is that we can use the material in Boruto to interpret NH as being a bad relationship. I exemplify this in my alcohol bottle posts. As such, you could hit control + F and replace the word toxic with whatever word suited your fancy (unhealthy, unwelcoming, unlikeable, turbulent, trying, difficult, etc) and it wouldn't make an ounce of a difference. This is why I don't care about semantics arguments. You can render them moot in a blink of an eye.

It's a bad habit English speakers have because the reason why these words exist is to distinguish a difference. Like venomous vs poisonous. So many think these mean the same thing, but they are not.

And of course, context is key.

Imagine trying to replace the word "Unhealthy" with the word "abusive."

"NH is an abusive relationship."

Now, I may hate NH and don't like the premise, but I would never say NH is an abusive relationship even though, using a little word play, I could say Naruto abuses Hinata's reluctance to actually hold Naruto accountable for anything he does negatively and thus gets away with everything. Just because you are Hokage doesn't mean it gives you the right to just treat your family like dirt...or anyone else for that matter.

Moot point? Maybe, but this is why people don't to take our arguments seriously because they take everything we say as a "moot point" just like Analyzer has taken everything WE have said as a "moot point."

Edited by James S Cassidy, 23 August 2017 - 01:38 AM.

[ThroughWithLove]

 

You are misinterpreting my arguments? Specifically, my argument about Sakura was that she did not fully understand Naruto yet, in regards to the hand-holding moment. Add or remove the Sasuke bit as you wish, the argument remains the same. No argument was made that Naruto loved Hinata throughout the manga, the argument was that this relationship develoed, so when we get to the Last, that Naruto fell into the love that he already had.

 

Further, I wouldn't spend so much time doing this, if...the forum didn't spend so much time lashing at this? Often, the only thing to discuss is complaints, and since I disagree with so many of them...hence my positions. I have no issues discussing and defending this all the time. 

 

(1) I understand your arguments just fine . . . or do I need to go back and dig up the actual statements you've made on the subject? I tend to have a pretty good memory.  (2) You've made clear that Naruto has loved Hinata long before the Last. This has no canonical basis; I specifically asked you to show me where this was shown in the film and you were unable to. It's fanon. And as we can see from the little tumblr blog you linked us to, it's fanon straight from the pages of a well known kool-aid drinking NH echo chamber.

 

Balderdash on the second paragraph. You've been called out in multiple threads for wanting to debate in threads that in no way call for debate (sometimes even relishing at the opportunity, as we can see from the recent thread tricksie-sama had to warn you on) I even recall you trying to start something in the SakuHina crackship thread for pete's sake! Heck, I even specifically once attempted to get some common ground from you when it came to discussing the idea of an alternate NS ending and you doubled down on having none of it!

 

 

It's a bad habit English speakers have because the reason why these words exist is to distinguish a difference. Like venomous vs poisonous. So many think these mean the same thing, but they are not.

And of course, context is key.

Imagine trying to replace the word "Unhealthy" with the word "abusive."

"NH is an abusive relationship."

Now, I may hate NH and don't like the premise, but I would never say NH is an abusive relationship even though, using a little word play, I could say Naruto abuses Hinata's reluctance to actually hold Naruto accountable for anything he does negatively and thus gets away with everything. Just because you are Hokage doesn't mean it gives you the right to just treat your family like dirt...or anyone else for that matter.

Moot point? Maybe, but this is why people don't to take our arguments seriously because they take everything we say as a "moot point" just like Analyzer has taken everything WE have said as a "moot point."

 

I hear what you're saying; different words do have different meanings. If you opposed the substance and context of my statements, that'd be one thing and we could definitely have a spirited debate. However, here, the problem is that we appear to agree on the substance (for the most part anyway) as to why NH makes for a bad relationship. In my case, I don't particularly care about the diction in light of the agreement on the actual substance. So if I see an objection to my language, I don't mind pacifying it.  Thus, if I called NH abusive, said everything I've already said word for word and you objected to my use of the word abusive, it wouldn't bother me to use the different word you're recommending. Just as I don't mind doing so here. Whatever will diffuse the minutia fueling the conflict. Everything you've pointed out in regards to the word toxic is not what I meant with my posts.

 

As to analyzer, I engage her for fun and amusement. I don't expect to change her mind on well . . . anything. Now if we get before a crowd of people I'm actually interested in persuading (i.e. a crowd that has not made up their mind on the substance of my points), I'll be a lot more mindful of my word choices and rely a lot more on the tactics I employ in the real world.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 23 August 2017 - 02:20 AM.