227 replies to this topic

[ramenanmitsu]

I know I shouldn't mix up story with reality but that Kishimoto's interview kind of really hurt me. If it was just NH/SS happening, I would've been disappointed but alright.

"If Sakura moved on, she's too terrible a woman" comment really hurt me because my mother is that woman who moved on and divorced my father who was violent, and cheated openly to the point that he even brought his girlfriend to our family dinner and told mom to go stay back in her room.

The reason why I admired Sasuke was because I wanted to be like him. I wanted vengenance. I really hated my father and the hell he's put my family to. I wanted to kill him and that's why Sasuke was kind of a role model. But now, I'm past that stage and am trying to move on from all this. And now, I see this interview and all the things of the past is going on replay. My father has always told me, "If you cannot forgive your father for all the things he's done, you're a terrible son and you deserve to go to the mental hospital." Kishi's words reminded me of this.

And then the things that has happened in the past is suddenly on replay. I can clearly replay the times my father was beating my mother. And now it's like I can hear the words of Kishi saying, "if she can't endure it she's too horrible a woman."

I know this is only a story. But the way I've lived my life I was always lonely so I always read books and related to the characters and in their world, and was so absorbed in it for the simple fact that the stories were so much better than reality. It's like they're a part of me. And I've been reading Naruto for more than ten years.

I don't know what I should do. I thought I was able to forget the past and move on, but now my memories are fully returning and I'm at a loss of what to do.

If I meet Kishi, I'd like to tell him, "Any woman who can move away from their violent partners are brave and admirable." I'm saying this, because I know how hard it was for my mother to do this. I think my mother doesnt need to endure that kind of life.

Ah men, I really don't know what I want to say anymore

Oh and the "I hate people who lie to themselves" comment? Right back at you Naruto!

Edited by ramenanmitsu, 20 November 2014 - 05:07 PM.

[elmas]

I know I shouldn't mix up story with reality but that Kishimoto's interview kind of really hurt me. If it was just NH/SS happening, I would've been disappointed but alright.

"If Sakura moved on, she's too terrible a woman" comment really hurt me because my mother is that woman who moved on and divorced my father who was violent, and cheated openly to the point that he even brought his girlfriend to our family dinner and told mom to go stay back in her room.

The reason why I admired Sasuke was because I wanted to be like him. I wanted vengenance. I really hated my father and the hell he's put my family to. I wanted to kill him and that's why Sasuke was kind of a role model. But now, I'm past that stage and am trying to move on from all this. And now, I see this interview and all the things of the past is going on replay. My father has always told me, "If you cannot forgive your father for all the things he's done, you're a terrible son and you deserve to go to the mental hospital." Kishi's words reminded me of this.

And then the things that has happened in the past is suddenly on replay. I can clearly replay the times my father was beating my mother. And now it's like I can hear the words of Kishi saying, "if she can't endure it she's too horrible a woman."

I know this is only a story. But the way I've lived my life I was always lonely so I always read books and related to the characters and in their world, and was so absorbed in it for the simple fact that the stories were so much better than reality. It's like they're a part of me. And I've been reading Naruto for more than ten years.

I don't know what I should do. I thought I was able to forget the past and move on, but now my memories are fully returning and I'm at a loss of what to do.

If I meet Kishi, I'd like to tell him, "Any woman who can move away from their violent partners are brave and admirable." I'm saying this, because I know how hard it was for my mother to do this. I think my mother doesnt need to endure that kind of life.

Ah men, I really don't know what I want to say anymore

Oh and the "I hate people who lie to themselves" comment? Right back at you Naruto!

Sorry to hear that,Ramen.

[Codus N]

After all those years of dodging questions about your gender it takes Kishi's disgusting admission for you to finally come out. *ahem* not in that way, of course.

[tricksie]

Right, it's like blaming the victim for the abuse.  

 

I hate this ending, and I hate that it sends absoluetly the wrong message. And that Kishimoto is obviously too blind to see it. How many kids are out there that are like you were, that are grappling with anger and pain, and can't escape it? What kind of message does it send?

 

And I'm so sorry it brings up negative for you. It makes the ending that much more awful because it presses on an old wound. Stopping terrible behavior like that, getting out of those horrible situations is one of the hardest, bravest things to do. The ending is crap, and you've definitely recognized what Kishimoto couldn't or wouldn't: No one should ever settle for that kind of treatment. Ever. It's not the victim's fault. It's the abuser's. You and your mom are awesome for breaking free of it. 

[ramenanmitsu]

And now on tumblr I see comments such as "It is a cultural thing" or "In Japan it's usual for a woman to endure this" or blah blah blah

Don't bring Japan into this! Just because there was one Japanese saying this, doesn't mean all of us are like that. I and am sure other Japanese don't even want to be branded with Kishi.

Right, it's like blaming the victim for the abuse.  
 
I hate this ending, and I hate that it sends absoluetly the wrong message. And that Kishimoto is obviously too blind to see it. How many kids are out there that are like you were, that are grappling with anger and pain, and can't escape it? What kind of message does it send?
 
And I'm so sorry it brings up negative for you. It makes the ending that much more awful because it presses on an old wound. Stopping terrible behavior like that, getting out of those horrible situations is one of the hardest, bravest things to do. The ending is crap, and you've definitely recognized what Kishimoto couldn't or wouldn't: No one should ever settle for that kind of treatment. Ever. It's not the victim's fault. It's the abuser's. You and your mom are awesome for breaking free of it. 

Thanks! It makes me wonder what the other people must be feeling after reading this. I wonder if Kishi would have said the same thing if he had a daughter.

Maybe the reason why he's forcing people to forgive people whose done horrific actions could be because he's like that too. When I read him saying that "villains have reasons for doing the things they do and we should try to understand them" sounded terribly familiar to what my father said about himself. Kishi could actually be the Madara of the story instead of being Naruto.

Edited by ramenanmitsu, 20 November 2014 - 05:32 PM.

[Hanabi]

there's no need to beat yourself up over this.. girls are barely characters in kishi's eyes. they're just there as men's accessories.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Ramen, you have my respect. I have no grudge to begin with, but this story of yours really got me. It's a shame that Naruto is the mindset for all to see what Japan sees, which is incredibly false. It's a shame for me to say that my story that I have in mind is inspired by this, but clearly, Kishi has the same sense as Gai in Rock Lee SD: people would think the way it's done has a deep meaning, only for the creator to go "Huh?" I can say now that the series only teach me to don't do the same mistake. I will take it to the heart.

[narusaku256]

I know I shouldn't mix up story with reality but that Kishimoto's interview kind of really hurt me. If it was just NH/SS happening, I would've been disappointed but alright.

"If Sakura moved on, she's too terrible a woman" comment really hurt me because my mother is that woman who moved on and divorced my father who was violent, and cheated openly to the point that he even brought his girlfriend to our family dinner and told mom to go stay back in her room.

The reason why I admired Sasuke was because I wanted to be like him. I wanted vengenance. I really hated my father and the hell he's put my family to. I wanted to kill him and that's why Sasuke was kind of a role model. But now, I'm past that stage and am trying to move on from all this. And now, I see this interview and all the things of the past is going on replay. My father has always told me, "If you cannot forgive your father for all the things he's done, you're a terrible son and you deserve to go to the mental hospital." Kishi's words reminded me of this.

And then the things that has happened in the past is suddenly on replay. I can clearly replay the times my father was beating my mother. And now it's like I can hear the words of Kishi saying, "if she can't endure it she's too horrible a woman."

I know this is only a story. But the way I've lived my life I was always lonely so I always read books and related to the characters and in their world, and was so absorbed in it for the simple fact that the stories were so much better than reality. It's like they're a part of me. And I've been reading Naruto for more than ten years.

I don't know what I should do. I thought I was able to forget the past and move on, but now my memories are fully returning and I'm at a loss of what to do.

If I meet Kishi, I'd like to tell him, "Any woman who can move away from their violent partners are brave and admirable." I'm saying this, because I know how hard it was for my mother to do this. I think my mother doesnt need to endure that kind of life.

Ah men, I really don't know what I want to say anymore

Oh and the "I hate people who lie to themselves" comment? Right back at you Naruto!

I think you should take a break from all of this, Ramen :/

[Liu bie]

My friend abroad just finished reading the manga. Boy is he furious. He called me for one hour on an international phone.

Friend: What the bloody hell is wrong with you Japanese!!!? What the hell is that ending!? You destroyed my life!
Me: Geez. Not all Japanese are like Kishimoto okay?
Friend: I can't believe it!! I don't want Hinata!! I HATE her!!
Me: Well, the new movie is her and Naruto's love story.
Friend: kitten you Japanese!! I started learning Japamese but I'll throw all my textbooks away!
Me: Come on!! It's not us Japanese's fault!! Don't put us with Kishi!! We don't want him either!!
Friend: Then what the bloody hell is this ending!? Why the kitten is gorgeous Sakura dusting the house!! Sakura should leave those chores to her servants!!!
Me: I didn't know you liked her.
Friend: Of course I love her!! Why do we have Hinata instead?
Me: Because she's popular?
Friend: Only unconfident loser men would go for submissive unattractive girls like Hinata. Just tell them to watch porn and get done with it. And bloody hell to Sasuke! I used to like him! Until he just stole the kittening show! Now I used all the f**cks of my lifetime!! I hate Japanese culture! Don't you dare talk about ninjas or even utter the word Hinata to me ever again.
Me: Dont worry. I'm feeling traumatic of ninja's and Hinata too. Shall I recommend you a new manga?
Friend: No thank you! I want to have nothing to do with Japanese culture!!
Me: Come on. Not everything is as bad as Kishi's writing.
Friend: You destroyed me life by introducing me to this manga. There is hell to pay!

Wow. Are there anyone else who can get this angry? I have to sleep early and the guy doesn't even cut the phone! The worst thing is he's coming to stay at my home for Christmas and New Years. I wonder if I can handle him.

That is extreme, should I feel like that if ready a bad ending manga?

[Lady_duckish]

Your friend is coming off racist. 

[Serenity Namikaze]

@ Ramen

 

Wow, your friend was really piss off. I understand his frustration but it was really extreme of him to say that. Not all the Japanese are like Kishi and support what he did.

 

I agree with narusaku256, I think you should take a brake from all of this. I think we should all take a break.

[Khaleesi]

His friend is from South Korea. Racist agaisnt who? Asiatic people? First go to check what does racism exactly means. 

 

Anyway, I reaaally want to someone to said directly to him all the problems this ending has... And I want a woman more specifically a woman to point out all this kitten... Those interviewers are so much confortable with the ending and doesn't even question it...It gives me the creeps :S

[Lady_duckish]

His friend is from South Korea. Racist agaisnt who? Asiatic people? First go to check what does racism exactly means. 

 

Anyway, I reaaally want to someone to said directly to him all the problems this ending has... And I want a woman more specifically a woman to point out all this bullsh**... Those interviewers are so much confortable with the ending and doesn't even question it...It gives me the creeps :S

How about you explain to me how this isnt racist? I didnt make this stuff up, its literally in the post . "Fu** you Japanese!" "What the bloody hell is wrong with you Japanese."

 

A person from South Korea can hold prejudice sentiments against not only his own race and ethnic group, but yes other asian ethnicities as well. "Fu** Japanese" sounds a lot like hate speech to me.

[Khaleesi]

Yes. Discriminated groups can also discriminate other ones. My mistake, but for the rest:

"Some authors suggest distinguishing between broadly racism and narrowly racism. In the first case it would be an ethnocentric or "socio-centric" attitude that separates the own group of others, and believes that both are made up of hereditary and immutable essences that make other, the alien, inadmissible and menacing creatures. This conception of the other lead to segregation, discrimination, expulsion or extermination and could rely on scientific, religious or mere legends or traditional feelings ideas. Instead, narrowly racism would be "a scientific doctrine that believes in hereditary biological determination of the individual's intellectual and moral capacities, and the division of human groups in races, differentiated by physical characters associated to hereditary and immutable intellectual and moral characters." Also affirms the intellectual and moral superiority of some races over others, superiority is maintained racial purity and is ruined with miscegenation. This type of racism, modeled on a Nazi, leads to defending the natural right of the superior to prevail over the "inferior" races."

 

Now, racism =/= discrimination alone, racism =/ stereotypes alone, racism =/= racial discrimination. This is quite difficult to tell apart since none of them are "good" and sentimentalism always wins arguments. 

This is also a controversial topic and as I said almost no one cares for being...precise about it. Read again and tell me if his friend was refering to something that is writen above.

Edited by theunburnt, 20 November 2014 - 10:12 PM.

[Lady_duckish]

Insinuating that something must be wrong with Japanese people based on one Japanese man is racist. He literally cursed an entire group of people because of one man. I dont understand why you are making this more complicated than it has to be.

 

discriminating against someone based on race is racist. 

Stereotypes  based on race are racist. Yes, even the stereotypes you perceive as nice are racist. 

Racial discrimination is a racist practice. 

 

He could have just as easily said, "Fu** you Kishi" but instead attacked an entire group of people because one of them made him mad.

 

 

What do you mean by precise? What is there to be so particular about? When someone is going around screaming "Fu** Japanese" do we really need to cross examine and pull out a rubric ? I mean, I could pull out some book quotes, draw from personal experiences of my own and those of others but I wont, because honestly I dont see where he leaves any room for doubt.

Edited by Lady_duckish, 20 November 2014 - 11:09 PM.

[Khaleesi]

Sighs, I shouldn't have said anything :v I'm not trying to make it more complicated, it is complicated... I made an studio about racism and all the concepts that are "alike" to it and here, in my country, there is racism everywhere. I can even say that statistically speaking latinos are the more opressed in that way. And I'm one myself, so...I'm pretty sure I know what it is to be victim of it? 

In a simpler way, his friend believes that japanese culture has something to do with this kind of ending, the message its transmit. That's why he's not "blaming" Kishimoto. Racism is about "inherent biological characters". So, in THAT point first, it doesn't have anything to do. 

Now, the misconception of japanese culture is something very common and it happens with all the countries, but this doesn't make it less...hurtful? The information that we have is what we capture from TV, their "big problems" in newspapers, their "products", some books or reviews, etc. It's never like living there all your life, because even so you can have the same misconceptions about your own culture. 

Even if I won't say that all peruvians are this or that way, I can admit the problems that our culture has and how its impact in our people...or "some people", if not a "lot of people". I can't deny the flaws of our culture because if there were any... where did that people came from? Every "action" has its consequence. They didn't come out of nowhere. It depends a lot of themselves, but...it also depends of context, culture, society, education, etc. What his friend did was associate "old, traditional" images with japanese culture of today to come up with that afirmation.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending ignorance. I'm clarifying something, playing the devil's advocate, that falls in other misconception.

I don't want to keep talking about this, because as I said, I don't want to deal with sentimentalism. Sentimentalism doesn't care about "details". This is a sensitive topic anyway.

 

Would you say that this man that is misogynist came out of nowhere and its ignorance doesn't have anything to do with USA's culture, history? Of course that he's stupid as hell, you can tell that in the first minute, but the word I used was "anything". Once again, its Ramen's friend "fault", but it doesn't fits in the definitions of racism... Cultural discrimination is more close to it. Racism is a type of/can be Cultural discrimination, but Cultural discrimination is not racism per sé.

 

Anyway, I don't want to spam Ramen's blog. I'm stoping here for that too.

Edited by theunburnt, 21 November 2014 - 01:44 AM.

[Lady_duckish]

Sighs, I shouldn't have said anything :v I'm not trying to make it more complicated, it is complicated... I made an studio about racism and all the concepts that are "alike" to it and here, in my country, there is racism everywhere. I can even say that statistically speaking latinos are the more opressed in that way. And I'm one myself, so...I'm pretty sure I know what it is to be victim of it? 

In a simpler way, his friend believes that japanese culture has something to do with this kind of ending, the message its transmit. That's why he's not "blaming" Kishimoto. Racism is about "inherent biological characters". So, in THAT point first, it doesn't have anything to do. 

Now, the misconception of japanese culture is something very common and it happens with all the countries, but this doesn't make it less...hurtful? The information that we have is what we capture from TV, their "big problems" in newspapers, their "products", some books or reviews, etc. It's never like living there all your life, because even so you can have the same misconceptions about your own culture. 

Even if I won't say that all peruvians are this or that way, I can admit the problems that our culture has and how its impact in our people...or "some people", if not a "lot of people". I can't deny the flaws of our culture because if there were any... where did that people came from? Every "action" has its consequence. They didn't come out of nowhere. It depends a lot of themselves, but...it also depends of context, culture, society, education, etc. What his friend did was associate "old, traditional" images with japanese culture of today to come up with that afirmation.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending ignorance. I'm clarifying something, playing the devil's advocate, that falls in other misconception.

I don't want to keep talking about this, because as I said, I don't want to deal with sentimentalism. Sentimentalism doesn't care about "details". This is a sensitive topic anyway.

 

Would you say that this man that is misogynist came out of nowhere and its ignorance doesn't have anything to do with USA's culture, history? Of course that he's stupid as hell, you can tell that in the first minute, but the word I used was "anything". Once again, its Ramen's friend "fault", but it doesn't fits in the definitions of racism... Cultural discrimination is more close to it. Racism is a type of/can be Cultural discrimination, but Cultural discrimination is not racism per sé.

 

Anyway, I don't want to spam Ramen's blog. I'm stoping here for that too.

So you are saying "Fu** Japanese" is not a racist statement? That that statement alone is not enough information to conclude Ramen's friend is a racist. Thats not even microagression, there is nothing subtle or slight about it. This person was angry about the way a story ended and decided to say 'kitten Japanese and kitten their culture because I read one kitten manga and it made me mad.'  I am not latino and I have no idea what country you live in, but here in the states thats considered racism. If I get on a radio station and say, "kitten japanese" I will be hailed as a racist and I will receive backlash for it. 

 

You think his statement was only an attack on the culture (An opinion  they made based on one manga instead of putting the majority of the blame on the man who wrote it. Kishi is not the poster child for Japanese culture.) well, i think it was both. He slams both the culture and the people when he made those statements (Ramen felt the need to say "not all japanese" not just/or "thats not Japanese culture). You see that as two separate concepts where I see them as overlapping to a point where it is both racist (kitten japanese) and cultural racism/Xenophobia. 

 

 My point: You are making leaps and bounds to prove he's not racist when this person told an entire ethnic group and the culture to kitten off. Anywho, we are going in circles. IMO  I literally could have copy and pasted my previous post to this response. I agree Ramen might not want all of this on their blog so if you wish to continue this discussion feel free to PM me. 

I never said culture has no part in shaping racist or misogynistic views.

[Khaleesi]

I never said that he wasn't wrong, btw. Anyway, I've already explained the difference...So I won't do it again if you don't even try to refute me with arguments based on what I've actually said. This isn't even a debate and I'm not used to discuss agaisn't bad argumentation. 

I don't need to PM you since I don't have the interest to talk with you about it. I was just clarifying concepts, which I already did, so out of it I don't have anything else that I want to do.

Yes, we are bothering him. So, don't reply this. I'm out of this place/forum anyway, at least for a while.

Good day.

[narusaku256]

Hello guys! Are we forgetting that this is Ramen's blog? It is supposed to be a place where he can write anything or rant about anything WITHOUT thinking how it'd affect other people. This is entirely his place. And we are literally arguing here. I think we should just stop arguing and instead, help Ramen out. I am sure that's more important than our 'Who is a racist' argument....

[ramenanmitsu]

Sorry I kind of left my own blog. And no worries you can feel free to debate. I love debating and love reading them. It's a pleasure if my blog gave that kind of atmosphere.

One thing I would like to clarify though is that my Korean friend never meant to insult Japan or our culture. It was just a phrase he uses when trying to express how disappointed he is with the Naruto manga. So he isn't a racist, just that use some harsh words or overstate things more than necessary.