19964 replies to this topic

[KnS]

Sorry, gang. Another long post.

Interesting thought there. We know Sakura functions at a very high reasoning level. So she would certainly not have gone into that situation unprepared. She would have approached it rationally, weighed all her actions and gone through scenarios over and over again. Even the bit in Sai's flashback shows it was constantly on her mind. So yeah, that helps overturn the idea that she rashly blurted out "I love you" as a last resort or as some sort of spur-of-the-moment change of plans.

Exactly. Couldn't agree more.

I see where you're coming from, but I interpreted that line a little differently. When she said "I'm the one the idiot fell for" I took that more as a statement about herself, and not at all about him. Sakura's biggest weakness is self doubt. And here, I didn't think she meant Naruto was an idiot, but that she was not worth as much as he thought. It's a self-deprecating statement, much like after the lover-nin where he says "Whoever you pick must be great" and she reflects back on Sasuke with deep regret (imho). Both situations have Sakura reflecting on herself in a negative light.

She says "I'm the one the idiot fell for" almost in the same breath as she says "I won't make any more mistakes." The latter is not the words of someone who believes in herself. So I just don't think the "idiot" comment is a statement about Naruto, but more like "he's an idiot for falling for someone like me" knowing and feeling deep down that she's made nothing but mistakes. And look how surprised she is about his love! If she was disregarding his love for her, she wouldn't be so surprised! These are the issues people bash Sakura with or use to justify their other ships, and I just don't read it that way. I think Sakura's much more complicated and much more human, driven by introspection, self-reflection and concern, like most teen girls are.

No, I agree with you that the "idiot" comment was an indication of her self-image issues. Totally. That's how her crush on Sasuke was formed to begin with. She thought she'd feel better about herself if she could land the "cool guy." That mistaken idea, plus her rivalry with Ino and the constant obnoxious interest from the decidedly uncool guy (Naruto), only reinforced her determination to pursue Sasuke. But I digress; that's all old water under the bridge, and thankfully Sakura has come a long way since those days.

I also agree Sakura was genuinely surprised when Sai said it was obvious that Naruto really loves her. (Sidenote: I think it's worth mentioning that even Shizune, who had chipped in a few other rebuttals during Sai's confrontation, did not argue this point.) As you noted above, "Sakura functions at a very high reasoning level" and I believe she accepted the truth of Naruto's love, opened her eyes to it, and consciously chose him, his love, his character, his goals -- everything. But I don't think that choice would have immediately erased a lifetime of self-image problems, or resolved all her leftover feelings for Sasuke. As you said, "Sakura's much more complicated and much more human."

That's why I think she could have gone into the confession "knowing" Naruto loves her, but not yet "fully appreciating just how much Naruto loves her, how deeply he is in love with her, and how much Sasuke's redemption figures into Naruto's hope of experiencing that love or his hope of a future in general." By saying that I never meant to suggest she was disregarding Naruto's love for her, only that at the time of the confession she still hadn't truly understood the scope or depth of his feelings or she wouldn't have tried to use them to change his mind.

See here's the thing: I think the idea that Sakura still has unresolved feelings for Sasuke is a ruse put forth by Kishimoto.

Oh. Well, I'm going to need some help believing that one. My mind is open to your idea, but I would have to be reminded of examples where Kishimoto has employed such a level of intentional misdirection elsewhere in the story, and get explanations for what I interpret as contrary evidence.

Off the top of my head, if your suggestion is correct then I have difficulty with these events:

1. #451. Tazuna and Inari arrive in Konoha to help rebuild after Pain's attack. Tazuna asks where Sasuke is. Sakura hangs her head, Naruto notices, and then says they had a disagreement but he's going to get him back. Tazuna then asks if he "detects a love triangle." Naruto quickly says no way, sparing Sakura the embarrassment and covering for the real reason for Sasuke's absence. However, Naruto's goofy posture and cheesy expression indicate his answer is not entirely true. My interpretation was that Naruto knew there was in fact a love triangle in play -- Naruto -> Sakura -> Sasuke -- but it wasn't the reason why Sasuke left. Sakura thanked Naruto in her head, which I took to mean she knew he was covering all the bases with his partially truthful answer. I was left with the impression that Kishimoto wanted us to think Sakura still loved Sasuke, and she and Naruto both knew it. (Sidenote: this scene was, IMO, a big blow to NH because it takes place almost immediately after Hinata's confession.)

2. #453. Sakura's reaction to Karui and Omoi's allegations about Sasuke. She reacts differently than Naruto, cries, and cannot give an answer when Karui asks, "What's Sasuke to you?" It seems to me that if Sasuke was merely a teammate Sakura could have easily said that -- and without crying. I was left with the impression that Kishimoto wanted us to think Sakura still loved Sasuke, and she and Naruto both knew it. Hence Naruto's decision to allow himself to be beaten, once again sparing Sakura embarrassment and covering for Sasuke.

3. #483. Karin's reading of Sakura's emotions when she arrives to confront Sasuke. Depending on the version, Karin thinks Sakura "has a thing" for Sasuke or "she must love him too." Sakura's flashbacks while she is approaching Sasuke with the poisoned kunai show her memories as more or less Team 7-ish until the last frame, when she remembers Sasuke thanking her for her outpouring of romantic love for him before he left the village. That last memory causes her too much grief and she hesitates. I was left with the impression that Kishimoto wanted us to think Sakura still loved Sasuke.

4. #540. Love Letter-nin conversation. And if I'm honest...

1 LL-n: "I haven't been able to get you out of my head. I-I wrote a little love letter... Listen, I don't know whether or not I'll survive this war...so I wanted to..."
2 Sakura: "Thank you...but...there's someone else I..."
3 LL-n: "Oh...oh well...I figured as much...well, it'd be pretty uncouth to start prying into who this other guy is, so I guess I'll get going...
4 Sakura: "I'm sorry..."
5 LL-n: "Hope it works out for you. He must be a really great guy if you're in love with him."
6 Sakura: *thinks of Sasuke and is sad / depressed / disappointed face*

When I first read this chapter and got to the panel where Sakura says line #2, I thought she was talking about Naruto. She's not sad in that panel, and changes to sad only when Love Letter-nin says line #5. If LL-nin had said "any guy you love must be great," then I could see her words in line #2 being about Naruto and line #6 being about Sasuke. But as I said, the conversation is linear and in the present tense, and when taken with the other evidence of her lingering feelings for Sasuke I listed above, I have to conclude she meant Sasuke in both panels.

I will admit, though, that if you're right and Kishimoto is perpetrating a ruse, then line #2 is about Naruto and her reaction at the end was about Sasuke.

But Kishimoto has been very intentional in his parallels for NS, including and most significantly, when Naruto saves Sakura. He overtly parallels their mutual affection.

From Naruto's side: Naruto saves Sakura, ripping her out of Sasuke's arms and leaving Saskue flailing which parallels the scene where Minato ripped baby Naruto out of Madara's arms, leaving him in the exact same pose. Then Naruto looks back over his shoulder with an
I'm-going-to-kill-you look, paralleling Minato's look to Madara.

From Sakura's side: When Naruto saves her, and she is in his arms looking up with surprise, it parallels the scene where Kushina is saved by Minato and she looks up from his arms, saying later that she knew then, at that moment, that she loved him.

I hardly ever hear that mentioned, but to me it is huge! The moment where Kushina says, explicitly, she fell in love with Minato is replayed with Sakura.

I don't disagree with anything you've said here. However, if Sakura did in fact recognize Naruto's love and commitment to her in the rescue scene, it was AFTER her confession and can't be effectively used as an argument to factor out her confused feelings for Sasuke during the confession, and that's what I thought we were talking about before.

So the Sakura that is still indecisive, at this point, is not the one you want to have in love with Naruto.

I can't agree. It doesn't bother me that she's not necessarily head-over-heels in love with Naruto yet, and actually think it's more realistic that she's not. Her enlightenment about Naruto's love, her choice to embrace it, and her decision to let go of Sasuke didn't happen very long ago in terms of the story timeline. I like her continual series of realizations and the build up as she gathers all the threads of her love for Naruto. I like it a lot better than the idea that she's already 100% certain and totally in love with Naruto, but Kishimoto is purposely misdirecting his audience.

So, Naruto's bond with Sasuke is his Number One Motivator. Overshadowing his desire to be Hokage and have Sakura, most famously with the "how can I be Hokage if I can't save one friend" and "how can I tell her if I can't keep a single promise."

But when Naruto saves Sakura, paralleling his father saving him, it puts Sakura in a position that is higher than just partner and friend. There are a lot of NH arguments that say Naruto ought to feel the however he does because Sakura is his partner and best friend. However saving Sakura in identical fashion that a parent saves a child puts Sakura without a doubt as his most precious person. He saves Hinata and everyone else as he would a partner, putting his life on the line for them. But with Sakura, it's entirely different. That moment should have wiped away all doubts as to where Sakura stands in his life. And Sakura recognized it, as evidenced by her parallel to Kushina in that moment.

But even with all that, Sasuke still remains Naruto's strongest motivator. Even if NS was confirmed, there was no war, Madara was dead and the villages were at peace, Naruto would still be chasing after Sasuke. So in that respect it remains his strongest bond.

Got it now, and I totally agree.

And yes, I love going over this stuff too. I like hearing other people's interpretations on the details because, really, there's many ways to interpret the details. I don't want to overlook anything.

Edited by KnS, 09 April 2012 - 11:36 PM.

[James S Cassidy]

Not to mention Sasuke is helping out the allied forces by defeating Kabuto, and in turn stopping edo tensei. I have a feeling Itachi convinced Sasuke to help him so that he'll have a chance to redeem himself in the eyes of the Kages and the others. After he his turned by Naruto, I think he'd be able to return to Konoha and Team 7.

Sasuke is not defeating Kabuto for the Allied forces (if he can even do it). He is doing it because Itachi asked him to and since he wants answers from Itachi, he is kind of doing it for his own purpose. Itachi is doing it because he was more or less "hypnotized" to.

Put it this way, what if it was Naruto fighting Kabuto or Sakura was fighting Kabuto and they asked for Sasuke's help, would he do it? I doubt it. If it was anyone, but Itachi he wouldn't help them at all. He would go about his business and not really care. MAYBE if it was Naruto, strictly speaking because he wants to fight Naruto and kill him himself, he would help him as well.

I know people would like to compare Vegeta and Sasuke, but their characters are different. Vegeta went from bad, to Anti-hero, to good. Sasuke went from good, to Anti-hero, to bad. They went in complete opposite directions based on their upbringing and lust for power, but vegeta knew that Goku was always going to beat him. Sasuke is determined to beat Naruto even if it is the last thing he does and he knows he can't take out Konoha without going through Naruto first, so that's why he going after him first.

Sasuke may turn into an Anti-hero, but I still think his main focus remains the same: Taking out Konoha. That is his ultimate goal. So far, nothing has wavered him from this goal. Unless Itachi can some how magically talk-no-jutsu him into not doing that, then it won't happen. Just remember this Sasuke has abandoned his village, killed a Kakage, attacked Killer Bee, attacked the Hokage summit, and did things against the villages of the Ninja nations all for the sake of power.

We also have this fact that if Sasuke become good, then the Naruto vs Sasuke fight will never happen. The only way for this fight to occur with no stops of it just being a "sparing match," then Sasuke needs to maintain his idea of wanting to destroy Konoha and everyone associated with him. And to be honest, I don't want him to become good either. He makes a far better villain than he does a good guy with him treating his teammates like tools rather than allies.

[CloudMountainJuror]

And to be honest, I don't want him to become good either. He makes a far better villain than he does a good guy with him treating his teammates like tools rather than allies.

QFT.

[Phantom_999]

Sorry i'm not following the debates, but ---- what might happen?

Oh, That Sasuke might become good again. Likely? Not really. And I'm not for it happening entirely. Might happen? Well I'm keeping an open mind about it cause it IS a shonen series and the fluffy, positive, Deus Ex Machinas happen pretty frequently. So we can expect it even if it's not desired.

Sasuke is not defeating Kabuto for the Allied forces (if he can even do it). He is doing it because Itachi asked him to and since he wants answers from Itachi, he is kind of doing it for his own purpose. Itachi is doing it because he was more or less "hypnotized" to.

Put it this way, what if it was Naruto fighting Kabuto or Sakura was fighting Kabuto and they asked for Sasuke's help, would he do it? I doubt it. If it was anyone, but Itachi he wouldn't help them at all. He would go about his business and not really care. MAYBE if it was Naruto, strictly speaking because he wants to fight Naruto and kill him himself, he would help him as well.

I know people would like to compare Vegeta and Sasuke, but their characters are different. Vegeta went from bad, to Anti-hero, to good. Sasuke went from good, to Anti-hero, to bad. They went in complete opposite directions based on their upbringing and lust for power, but vegeta knew that Goku was always going to beat him. Sasuke is determined to beat Naruto even if it is the last thing he does and he knows he can't take out Konoha without going through Naruto first, so that's why he going after him first.

Sasuke may turn into an Anti-hero, but I still think his main focus remains the same: Taking out Konoha. That is his ultimate goal. So far, nothing has wavered him from this goal. Unless Itachi can some how magically talk-no-jutsu him into not doing that, then it won't happen. Just remember this Sasuke has abandoned his village, killed a Kakage, attacked Killer Bee, attacked the Hokage summit, and did things against the villages of the Ninja nations all for the sake of power.

We also have this fact that if Sasuke become good, then the Naruto vs Sasuke fight will never happen. The only way for this fight to occur with no stops of it just being a "sparing match," then Sasuke needs to maintain his idea of wanting to destroy Konoha and everyone associated with him. And to be honest, I don't want him to become good either. He makes a far better villain than he does a good guy with him treating his teammates like tools rather than allies.

Nope That'd be Naruto's job actually. he's the one doing the "Talk no jutsu" to people and convincing them of his beliefs, as improbable as it should be cause no way anyone can be convinced so easily; realistically speaking. I'm actually neutral about honestly If Sasuke becomes good fine, but if he stays a villain and needs to be put down, also fine cause That IS more sensible logically, but since this is a shonen series I'm just saying expect the possibility of him turning good again via an a** pull; It's happened before. The Sasuke and Vegeta argument I agree with except we're saying that they are similar in terms of personality, not character development. Anyways I'm doing the comparison not cause I think Naruto should follow Dragon Ball but because that shonen series generally have that type of theme in redeeming some characters no matter how off the deep end they are or low they've sunken, that's just how it s usually.

Ive heard mention that SS will occur due to the fact that it is a parallel to VegxBul, but if I remember correctly, that pairing had no development whatsoever. As a matter of fact, no pairings in DBZ had development. This, however, brings the theory down, due to the fact that Kishimoto has focused too much on development to make random kitten happen.

Yeah, those fans need reminding that Naruto is NOT Dragon ball. The pairings in that series were ALL mix and match due to ridiculous demand for romance in that story despite protests from Toriyama that he doesn't want to put it in. He just made it "fairy tale" instant romance cause he did not want romance scenes in the manga;m He does not roll like that. Naruto on the other hand has at least some romantic development a subtle as it is cause Kishimoto Stated he isn't good at writing it romance, but at least is trying to incorporate a realistic relationship, not a shallow superficial one.

Edited by Phantom_999, 09 April 2012 - 11:43 PM.

[Dragunov]

Ive heard mention that SS will occur due to the fact that it is a parallel to VegxBul, but if I remember correctly, that pairing had no development whatsoever. As a matter of fact, no pairings in DBZ had development. This, however, brings the theory down, due to the fact that Kishimoto has focused too much on development to make random kitten happen.

[Derock]

Ive heard mention that SS will occur due to the fact that it is a parallel to VegxBul, but if I remember correctly, that pairing had no development whatsoever. As a matter of fact, no pairings in DBZ had development. This, however, brings the theory down, due to the fact that Kishimoto has focused too much on development to make random kitten happen.

Uh... GohanXVidel fans say hello.

[Strangelove]

Ive heard mention that SS will occur due to the fact that it is a parallel to VegxBul, but if I remember correctly, that pairing had no development whatsoever. As a matter of fact, no pairings in DBZ had development. This, however, brings the theory down, due to the fact that Kishimoto has focused too much on development to make random kitten happen.

I dissagree, sounds to me like a though of desperation, considering that they're pairing has already hit rock bottom.

[Dragunov]

Uh... GohanXVidel fans say hello.

My bad.......................... although to me it was a given that the pairing would happen, development wasnt that high. I forget. Its been years since I watched DBZ.

Edited by Dragunov, 09 April 2012 - 11:43 PM.

[Phantom_999]

Uh... GohanXVidel fans say hello.

My bad.......................... although to me it was a given that the pairing would happen, development wasnt that high. I forget. Its been years since I watched DBZ.

Yeah they haven't known each other that long. it was kind like Vegeta ad Bulma; meet a few times, feel an attraction, then the rest is just romance in a few minutes.

[Derock]

Yeah they haven't known each other that long. it was kind like Vegeta ad Bulma; meet a few times, feel an attraction, then the rest is just romance in a few minutes.

But that was the one with development. Just because it was very short, doesn't mean there was any development. And VegetaXBulma is a bad example because even though they did interacted, they were paired off because of Trunks' debut for making the story/purpose, at least, sense. (And of course, Toriyama's attempt to piss off the fans).

[AzureWaters]

Sasuke is not defeating Kabuto for the Allied forces (if he can even do it). He is doing it because Itachi asked him to and since he wants answers from Itachi, he is kind of doing it for his own purpose. Itachi is doing it because he was more or less "hypnotized" to.

Put it this way, what if it was Naruto fighting Kabuto or Sakura was fighting Kabuto and they asked for Sasuke's help, would he do it? I doubt it. If it was anyone, but Itachi he wouldn't help them at all. He would go about his business and not really care. MAYBE if it was Naruto, strictly speaking because he wants to fight Naruto and kill him himself, he would help him as well.

I know people would like to compare Vegeta and Sasuke, but their characters are different. Vegeta went from bad, to Anti-hero, to good. Sasuke went from good, to Anti-hero, to bad. They went in complete opposite directions based on their upbringing and lust for power, but vegeta knew that Goku was always going to beat him. Sasuke is determined to beat Naruto even if it is the last thing he does and he knows he can't take out Konoha without going through Naruto first, so that's why he going after him first.

Sasuke may turn into an Anti-hero, but I still think his main focus remains the same: Taking out Konoha. That is his ultimate goal. So far, nothing has wavered him from this goal. Unless Itachi can some how magically talk-no-jutsu him into not doing that, then it won't happen. Just remember this Sasuke has abandoned his village, killed a Kakage, attacked Killer Bee, attacked the Hokage summit, and did things against the villages of the Ninja nations all for the sake of power.

We also have this fact that if Sasuke become good, then the Naruto vs Sasuke fight will never happen. The only way for this fight to occur with no stops of it just being a "sparing match," then Sasuke needs to maintain his idea of wanting to destroy Konoha and everyone associated with him. And to be honest, I don't want him to become good either. He makes a far better villain than he does a good guy with him treating his teammates like tools rather than allies.

Yes, you are right about Sasuke not doing this for the Allies--he is doing it so he can get answers out of Itachi. However, this will still be looked at as helping the war, and despite the technicalities regarding his intentions for defeating Kabuto, he will still probably be pardoned by the Kages and higher ups for doing that. He would have gotten rid of Edo Tensei, which is one the biggest problems, after all.

Taking out Konoha is one of his big goals, but first comes proving Naruto wrong. He'll fight him before he makes any moves against the village, and by then it will be the end of the line,as Naruto won't fail in redeeming/stopping Sasuke this time.

[James S Cassidy]

Yes, you are right about Sasuke not doing this for the Allies--he is doing it so he can get answers out of Itachi. However, this will still be looked at as helping the war, and despite the technicalities regarding his intentions for defeating Kabuto, he will still probably be pardoned by the Kages and higher ups for doing that. He would have gotten rid of Edo Tensei, which is one the biggest problems, after all.

Taking out Konoha is one of his big goals, but first comes proving Naruto wrong. He'll fight him before he makes any moves against the village, and by then it will be the end of the line,as Naruto won't fail in redeeming/stopping Sasuke this time.

I am not sure how the Kages would even know about it happening. Yeah, they would see the ET going away, but I don't think they would connect Sasuke to doing it. Naruto knows about Itachi going for it, so maybe they would forgive him, but not Sasuke. Even if they did they could even see it as Tobi telling Sasuke to take him out as they know he is conjunction with him. Things is, even if we know what we know, the characters will not know. They would take the info with a grain a salt and if I know anything about stories and how governments are portrayed in them, one "good" deed will not erase all his crimes. I even can think of Ai still wanting his head on a platter cause he seems like a guy who is hard to win over in negotiations. Naruto couldn't even persuade him to stop going after Sasuke.

Also, if he still plans to destroy the village then the good deed is N/A and they will take it as a civil war within the enemy camp.

[Jake]

I am not sure how the Kages would even know about it happening. Yeah, they would see the ET going away, but I don't think they would connect Sasuke to doing it. Naruto knows about Itachi going for it, so maybe they would forgive him, but not Sasuke. Even if they did they could even see it as Tobi telling Sasuke to take him out as they know he is conjunction with him. Things is, even if we know what we know, the characters will not know. They would take the info with a grain a salt and if I know anything about stories and how governments are portrayed in them, one "good" deed will not erase all his crimes. I even can think of Ai still wanting his head on a platter cause he seems like a guy who is hard to win over in negotiations. Naruto couldn't even persuade him to stop going after Sasuke.

Also, if he still plans to destroy the village then the good deed is N/A and they will take it as a civil war within the enemy camp.

I don't think Naruto would tell them because correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Naruto promise Itachi he wouldn't tell anyone the truth about the Uchiha Massacar and because of that he couldn't tell the Kages without reviling the truth, otherwise it just wouldn't be believeable.

[James S Cassidy]

I don't think Naruto would tell them because correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Naruto promise Itachi he wouldn't tell anyone the truth about the Uchiha Massacar and because of that he couldn't tell the Kages without reviling the truth, otherwise it just wouldn't be believeable.

Okay I am just kidding there, but I see what you are saying. If Naruto said the truth, they wouldn't believe him regardless. Even if they did trust him, it would probably cause more problems than it solves. Maybe one day when everything dies down, the truth would be spoken and Naruto being the Hokage would honor the Uchiha instead of revere them.

So, basically there is no way for the Kages to know of what Sasuke is doing right now and they wouldn't believe it even if it was told to them. So, this is why I don't see Sasuke being forgiven even if this is seen as a good deed. They wouldn't believe he did it anyway.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 10 April 2012 - 01:17 AM.

[Phantom_999]

But that was the one with development. Just because it was very short, doesn't mean there was any development. And VegetaXBulma is a bad example because even though they did interacted, they were paired off because of Trunks' debut for making the story/purpose, at least, sense. (And of course, Toriyama's attempt to piss off the fans).

I know Kage Derock. Just making a point DB is NOT a good comparison to Naruto for pairings. The romance in that series was rushed, unplanned, and as you said just to "flip the bird" at the fans for harassing him with issues he'd rather not deal with.

Edited by Phantom_999, 10 April 2012 - 04:03 AM.

[lord287]

Well, I'm going to need some help believing that one. My mind is open to your idea, but I would have to be reminded of examples where Kishimoto has employed such a level of intentional misdirection elsewhere in the story, and get explanations for what I interpret as contrary evidence.

Off the top of my head, if your suggestion is correct then I have difficulty with these events:

1. #451. Tazuna and Inari arrive in Konoha to help rebuild after Pain's attack. Tazuna asks where Sasuke is. Sakura hangs her head, Naruto notices, and then says they had a disagreement but he's going to get him back. Tazuna then asks if he "detects a love triangle." Naruto quickly says no way, sparing Sakura the embarrassment and covering for the real reason for Sasuke's absence. However, Naruto's goofy posture and cheesy expression indicate his answer is not entirely true. My interpretation was that Naruto knew there was in fact a love triangle in play -- Naruto -> Sakura -> Sasuke -- but it wasn't the reason why Sasuke left. Sakura thanked Naruto in her head, which I took to mean she knew he was covering all the bases with his partially truthful answer. I was left with the impression that Kishimoto wanted us to think Sakura still loved Sasuke, and she and Naruto both knew it. (Sidenote: this scene was, IMO, a big blow to NH because it takes place almost immediately after Hinata's confession.)

2. #453. Sakura's reaction to Karui and Omoi's allegations about Sasuke. She reacts differently than Naruto, cries, and cannot give an answer when Karui asks, "What's Sasuke to you?" It seems to me that if Sasuke was merely a teammate Sakura could have easily said that -- and without crying. I was left with the impression that Kishimoto wanted us to think Sakura still loved Sasuke, and she and Naruto both knew it. Hence Naruto's decision to allow himself to be beaten, once again sparing Sakura embarrassment and covering for Sasuke.

3. #483. Karin's reading of Sakura's emotions when she arrives to confront Sasuke. Depending on the version, Karin thinks Sakura "has a thing" for Sasuke or "she must love him too." Sakura's flashbacks while she is approaching Sasuke with the poisoned kunai show her memories as more or less Team 7-ish until the last frame, when she remembers Sasuke thanking her for her outpouring of romantic love for him before he left the village. That last memory causes her too much grief and she hesitates. I was left with the impression that Kishimoto wanted us to think Sakura still loved Sasuke.

4. #540. Love Letter-nin conversation. And if I'm honest...


When I first read this chapter and got to the panel where Sakura says line #2, I thought she was talking about Naruto. She's not sad in that panel, and changes to sad only when Love Letter-nin says line #5. If LL-nin had said "any guy you love must be great," then I could see her words in line #2 being about Naruto and line #6 being about Sasuke. But as I said, the conversation is linear and in the present tense, and when taken with the other evidence of her lingering feelings for Sasuke I listed above, I have to conclude she meant Sasuke in both panels.

I will admit, though, that if you're right and Kishimoto is perpetrating a ruse, then line #2 is about Naruto and her reaction at the end was about Sasuke.

I just wanted to point out something about point No.2. If I am correct in seeing sakura's character if Naruto would have done something like this(though he will never) and the same question was asked to sakura, I think she would have given a same reaction i.e. started crying without saying anything!

the point No. 3 was also kind of invalid because karin says she also loves sasuke which means that Karin also was not only having a crush on sasuke, but karin also loved sasuke!! And if other people seeing that someone loves someone makes it love then yamato was also about to state that sakura loves naruto and then sai also stated after her confession that sakura loves sasuke(which will make narusaku dead).

Most of the time I don't consider any scene where sakura starts crying about thinking what sasuke has done as a act of love towards sasuke because in part II sakura will also have started crying if naruto is about to do something bad eg:- when naruto was 4 tailed kyubi mode she started crying thinking about naruto which really make me think she started to love him but it only appears whenever kishi makes sakura cry thinking about any of the 2 boys it is generally to show she cares for them and not to point in love direction!

I still hope that she is going to chose naruto in the end(if naruto lives) but i can't see how will kishi erase the effect of the deep feelings he has made sakura show towards sasuke! Moreover if someone only watched the anime the confession she did to Naruto has already been made fake because of the scene they added when sakura was heading towards sasuke! If I was watching only anime, for me narusaku don't have much chances of happening because sakura's feelings for sasuke are shown to be very deep and i think even deeper than for Naruto!

If sakura ever has to chose in a life death situation between GOOD Sasuke and GOOD Naruto(which may happen in end) i don't think her first choice will be Naruto!

*edit*- i started reading manga pretty late so i didn't notice chapter 451 so i went to a site and checked it out, and i kind of disagree with you because i didn't find any kind of love feelings of sakura towards sasuke! She was just sad when the name of sasuke appeared because she do have feelings for him but it did not make sure whether they were romantic feelings or not! Naruto also becomes sad most of the time when sasuke is the person being talked about but he was just not shown so sad in those pages but little after that!

The only valid chapter from ur points where i find kishi was indicating Sakura's romantic feelings towards sasuke was chapter 540!


I also hope the next moment he gives, will and should definitely be a proper NS moment to balance things out!

Edited by lord287, 10 April 2012 - 12:53 PM.

[Dragunov]

I don't care what he does, just so long as he doesn't end up "reforming" and coming back to the Leaf as part of Team 7, as though nothing ever happened. That would be the most cliche, garbage ending possible.

And further, I can't believe anyone would refer to Itachi as a hero.

Voluntary scapegoat would be the right choice.

[ciardha]

Voluntary scapegoat would be the right choice.

Sort of voluntary, more he was forced into an impossible situation where he had to chose the "best" of two horrendous choices. I think that shattered him completely, mentally. More tragic anti hero. I believe that's what Kishimoto wants readers to see Itachi as. The one mistake Kishimoto made on making that image convincing was the deux-ex-machina scene (that provokes Sasuke into rage madness against even Naruto, and into immediately leaving Konoha) in late part 1 where Itachi puts Sasuke into a genjutsu where he emotionally tortures him and leaves him in a coma. Had Kishimoto not done that scene with Itachi and Sasuke I think most readers would indeed see Itachi as the tragic anti hero of the series. That scene is so extreme that it colors Itachi into a such a villain that many readers can only see Itachi as a villain. (Which I can see their point. Like I said, I think Kishimoto made that scene too extreme.)

[PachucoDesigns]

Sort of voluntary, more he was forced into an impossible situation where he had to chose the "best" of two horrendous choices. I think that shattered him completely, mentally. More tragic anti hero. I believe that's what Kishimoto wants readers to see Itachi as. The one mistake Kishimoto made on making that image convincing was the deux-ex-machina scene (that provokes Sasuke into rage madness against even Naruto, and into immediately leaving Konoha) in late part 1 where Itachi puts Sasuke into a genjutsu where he emotionally tortures him and leaves him in a coma. Had Kishimoto not done that scene with Itachi and Sasuke I think most readers would indeed see Itachi as the tragic anti hero of the series. That scene is so extreme that it colors Itachi into a such a villain that many readers can only see Itachi as a villain. (Which I can see their point. Like I said, I think Kishimoto made that scene too extreme.)

If Sasuke forgives the Leaf for the mass murder of his family at the hands of his brother, and then hiding it from him so he can waste his entire life and sanity on a complete lie, if he "reforms" and returns to Team 7 after everything that's happened, I swear, I will never forgive Kishimoto for it. It is the stupidest ending possible. I mean, if he does that, he'd might as well just end it with "And they all lived happily ever after."

Edited by PachucoDesigns, 10 April 2012 - 11:36 AM.

[Don-kun]

Yes, you are right about Sasuke not doing this for the Allies--he is doing it so he can get answers out of Itachi. However, this will still be looked at as helping the war, and despite the technicalities regarding his intentions for defeating Kabuto, he will still probably be pardoned by the Kages and higher ups for doing that. He would have gotten rid of Edo Tensei, which is one the biggest problems, after all.

Taking out Konoha is one of his big goals, but first comes proving Naruto wrong. He'll fight him before he makes any moves against the village, and by then it will be the end of the line,as Naruto won't fail in redeeming/stopping Sasuke this time.

I agree with you to some piont, last flash back we have people in Konoha still see Sasuke has an hero.
And so far He kill: Orochimaru, Itachi, Danzo, and about to hell kill Kabutomaru all of them enemy of Konoha. and the world. Danzo was seen has a traitor in the Kage summit.

Has a fan after all the things Sasuke has done do I think he need to die? yes but Kishi will ignore everything and show Sasuke in a better light trust me on that one.
I personaly don't believe he will return to Konoha, but it all be clear when Itachi tells Sasuke the truth.

Like Phantom_999 mention before only if Kishi create an a** pull to change Sasuke's mind, and that a** pull will happen after Ithachi's truth, forcing Sasuke to fight Tobi or Madara (and with that Sasuke will be forgiven for all his sins) trust me it will be like nothing ever happen, Kishi likes Sasuke's character so favoritism will play a big factor in his story.
Kishi may also kill off Jugo and Suigetsu just to make sure Sasuke return to Konoha he will not abandon then again so they need to die for me to see Sasuke going back.

If you don't think there is favoritism, then try to expline that to: Ten Ten, Neji, Ino, Lee, Kiba, choji, Shino and sometimes Sakura.
It like this
Sasuke>>>>Naruto
Shikamaru
Hinata>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>then the rest.