243 replies to this topic

[Sakura Blossoms]

Yeah, Pakistan has a lot of questions they need to (and will never) answer. The Pakistani west point was there and the mansion was across the street from a police station. The town was a retiree town for military personel....

Sure thing, guys....

Yeah, they knew he was there:

Also unclear was why bin Laden chose Abbottabad, though at least two other top al-Qaida leaders have sheltered in this town. The bustling streets are dotted with buildings left over from British colonial days. These days it attracts some tourists, but is known mostly as a garrison town wealthier than many others in Pakistan.

Bin Laden found it safe enough to stay for up to six years, according to U.S. officials, a stunning length of time to remain in one place right under the noses of a U.S.-funded army that had ostensibly been trying to track him down. Most intelligence assessments believed him to be along the Afghan-Pakistan border, perhaps in a cave.

[Insurrection]

http://www.nytimes.c...akistan.html?hp

Toughening its stand, the Pakistani government lashed out at the United States on Tuesday for the raid that killed Osama bin Laden, saying that the United States had made “an unauthorized unilateral action” that would be not be tolerated in the future.

Okay, yesterday you said you were part of this operation to help us, now you're mad at us?

Using stringent language, a statement by the Pakistani Foreign Office said, “Such an event shall not serve as a future precedent for any state, including the United States.”

The pushback came a day after Washington’s envoy to Pakistan and Afghanistan, Marc Grossman, met with the head of the Pakistani army, Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, and the chief of the Inter-Services Intelligence, Lt. Gen. Ahmed Shuja Pasha, and told them that patience for Pakistan was wearing thin in Congress.

Mr. Grossman conveyed the message in a way to alert the Pakistani leaders that time was of the essence and that Pakistan needed to show some positive steps to stanch the tide of anger, according to Obama administration officials familiar with the meeting in Islamabad Monday night.

General Kayani and General Pasha, embarrassed at home and abroad by the raid that occurred without their permission, gave no specific response to the American diplomat, the officials said.

“The Pakistanis have been told by the Americans that the temperature is rising in Washington and the reaction has been silence,” one administration official said.

Saw that coming.

A civilian official in the Pakistani government said he did not know if the ISI helped Bin Laden hide or was simply unaware of his presence in Abbottabad. Either way, the successful American raid was an international humiliation for the agency.

“I’m not denying the possibility,” the official said, referring to the ISI sheltering Bin Laden. “At worst, it’s that. At best, it’s total incompetence.”

He said he hoped the raid would lead Pakistanis — particularly military and ISI leaders — to recognize the deep credibility problem their country now faces internationally.

“Pakistan has to overcome a culture,” he said, “of thinking that they can brazenly lie their way through.”

Ouch.

Edited by Insurrection, 04 May 2011 - 06:02 AM.

[Greed-Sama]

Okay, yesterday you said you were part of this operation to help us, now you're mad at us?

You know what's interesting, I'm sure if the attempt had been unsuccessful or the hunt been of a wild goose chase that Pakistan would not be in deep water like they are and America would be getting heat for technically invading on sovereign soil, but now everyone is more than willing to turn a blind eye now that Pakistan is not as innocent as they seem.

Whether or not Osama's death is good morally, it does seem to bring back America's credibility, whether or not the death of one man should return it.

[Dreamer]

Yeah, rather release photos and piss the Osama-lovers off even more, or keep it hidden and piss off the conspiracy people who don't really think he's dead. Honestly I wouldn't want a photo released, I'll just trust them.

This is is what i thought too about the photos, don't want stir up Al Qaeda even more.

[Codus N]

Okay, so, let me get this straight. A picture - a form of media that finds itself regularly manipulated on the internet and has been proven to be easy to fake - is even more solid a piece of evidence than DNA testing? That's pretty backwards; and guaranteed the second a photo of his dead body went up online there would be conspiracy theorists claiming it's fake. I don't mean this as a snarky remark or as a jab at you, but I think if DNA testing isn't going to do it for you nothing short of you actually having been there when he was plugged will.

If nothing else, the political ramifications alone make me think this is the real deal. The President announces this guy is dead and it turns out he isn't? It'd be like chum in the shark infested water. Besides which, Bin Laden was much more useful politically as a boogeyman than he is a body.

I agree. What would it take Alexander? There is already a faked photo of dead Osama, why would that convince you over the DNA?

I can't believe he either stupid, reckless, or dishonest enough, to fake this or not to be really sure it's Bin Laden before he says this. If he's caught or wrong, he's toast.

I don't believe Obama very often, but I do believe him on this.

To all these above, I agree with alex. Why?? because it's simple. It's not about appeasing conspiracy theorists, but rather giving a full closure on everything about this man. Not only that, the people in my country are still highly skeptical of this. Why?? remember the bush fiasco?? the very reason why we're doubting this is because it's none other than the bungles Bush did back then. (WMDs in Iraq, anyone??) who's to say you guys are not lying this time?? that's the question we all have right now. You can certainly thank Bush for making the American government look like a big bunch of fat liars. Granted, it's a different man with a different government right now, but the fact doesn't change that America's image of being a big fat liar is not yet cleared. So I think this a perfect oppoturnity to change that. So I'm saying yes to the photos released. And besides, if it was released, I'm sure hundreds of photoshop experts would analyze it bit by bit not even missing a micropixel to clarify it as legit.

I also would like to clear up something regarding Osama's burial. Osama's burial was not exactly done in the right way, that's what I have a problem with. Not only that, the decision to bury him in the sea was also a problem. The reasons they stated was sound, but it had one big hole:

We don't make shrines to individuals.

Frankly, the govt sort of misunderstood his followers, the truth is, if they had to worship the man, they'd probably say "over our dead body". Why?? because worshipping anybody else other than the Prophet and Allah is an extremely huge sin. If these guys are indeed hard-line religion fanatics, they would definitely not do something like worshipping one man like he was a prophet. (unless of course, Osama ordered them to worship him which would be a huge sin which would be rewarded with deepest depths of hell.)

If anything, a lot of them would just come to the grave to pray for him (which by the way, I would be disgusted with them doing so) which is customary (not an obligation) in Islam. An easy solution to this would be to place US soldiers around the grave and should his followers try to get in, they'd be caught and interrogated. Which is a no-no for them.

However, I can understand since they didn't really know the exact details. I think this would've been a lot better if they had asked a moderate cleric's opinion about his burial proceedings.

[Nate River]

To all these above, I agree with alex. Why?? because it's simple. It's not about appeasing conspiracy theorists, but rather giving a full closure on everything about this man. Not only that, the people in my country are still highly skeptical of this. Why?? remember the bush fiasco?? the very reason why we're doubting this is because it's none other than the bungles Bush did back then. (WMDs in Iraq, anyone??) who's to say you guys are not lying this time?? that's the question we all have right now. You can certainly thank Bush for making the American government look like a big bunch of fat liars. Granted, it's a different man with a different government right now, but the fact doesn't change that America's image of being a big fat liar is not yet cleared. So I think this a perfect oppoturnity to change that. So I'm saying yes to the photos released. And besides, if it was released, I'm sure hundreds of photoshop experts would analyze it bit by bit not even missing a micropixel to clarify it as legit.

I also would like to clear up something regarding Osama's burial. Osama's burial was not exactly done in the right way, that's what I have a problem with. Not only that, the decision to bury him in the sea was also a problem. The reasons they stated was sound, but it had one big hole:

Two things:

(1) If I'm Obama, I'm not sure I even care whether the citizens of Indonesia believe me. I know I don't care whether they believe Obama.

(2) Even if the experts do that, I strongly suspect most of the people who think America is lying now still won't believe it. You know, maybe American computer experts are just that good.... I don't think the pictures will convince very many people that still refuse to believe it's Osama. And WMD is the reason? That's an after the fact justification for a belief most of them likely already held. It didn't just suddenly originate with that and I don't believe they wouldn't be making such claims in the absence of that event.

If anything, a lot of them would just come to the grave to pray for him (which by the way, I would be disgusted with them doing so) which is customary (not an obligation) in Islam. An easy solution to this would be to place US soldiers around the grave and should his followers try to get in, they'd be caught and interrogated. Which is a no-no for them.

Hell no.

We do not need to have American military guarding the grave of a murderer, so fanatics won't show up to worsphip it just to try (and fail) to pacify other fanatics. I think dumping the body at sea was just fine. Yeah, they might have no gotten the Islamic law right, but then, the Administration was under no obligation to even try to do this. The could have just destroyed without trying to comply.

He doesn't need a grave and we sure as hell don't need to spend resources guarding it.

[alexander]

I agree with everything Codus says, this is not about pleasing conspiracy theories adepts, but show the pictures to prove you have nothing to hide, all this secrecy is unessessary, and about not showing the pictures to not piss off the extremists even more, thats just nonsense, the fact that Osama had been killed already got them furious, they will want revenge, showing this pictures or not.

[Nate River]

I agree with everything Codus says, this is not about pleasing conspiracy theories adepts, but show the pictures to prove you have nothing to hide, all this secrecy is unessessary, and about not showing the pictures to not piss off the extremists even more, thats just nonsense, the fact that Osama had been killed already got them furious, they will want revenge, showing this pictures or not.

How does that conclusively proof he has nothing else to hide?

Cause....maybe it's a stunt body in the picture or some dead guy who looks like Osama?

I personally don't care if they release it, I just find the rational used for it to be pretty weak.

[alexander]

How does that conclusively proof he has nothing else to hide?

Cause....maybe it's a stunt body in the picture or some dead guy who looks like Osama?

I personally don't care if they release it, I just find the rational used for it to be pretty weak.

What about the video then? The government confirmed that one of the SEALs had an camera on his helmet, and the whole operation was filmed. This probaly enough to convince everybody.

[ShippudenGirl]

Gawd, a video would be worse then a picture because you'd actually see him die, not a picture of him already dead. Now THAT would really piss off Osama-lovers. I'm curious, but it'd make me sick to my stomach.

[Nate River]

What about the video then? The government confirmed that one of the SEALs had an camera on his helmet, and the whole operation was filmed. This probaly enough to convince everybody.

Paid Actors. Everyone knows Hollywood is in the tank for Obama. They'd fake this for him.

The question is who are you trying to convince that doesn't already believe you and is the cost of making the video public trying to convince those people. I don't know everything that's on it, but is it worth releasing to convince a minority of people who may not believe you no matter what you do?

[alexander]

Paid Actors. Everyone knows Hollywood is in the tank for Obama. They'd fake this for him.

The question is who are you trying to convince that doesn't already believe you and is the cost of making the video public trying to convince those people. I don't know everything that's on it, but is it worth releasing to convince a minority of people who may not believe you no matter what you do?

The problem that this is not only a public demand, if I'm not mistaken, even the ONU is preassuring the US government to release this images. They are not liking that the USA is keeping all footage for themselfs.

[Codus N]

Two things:

(1) If I'm Obama, I'm not sure I even care whether the citizens of Indonesia believe me. I know I don't care whether they believe Obama.

(2) Even if the experts do that, I strongly suspect most of the people who think America is lying now still won't believe it. You know, maybe American computer experts are just that good.... I don't think the pictures will convince very many people that still refuse to believe it's Osama. And WMD is the reason? That's an after the fact justification for a belief most of them likely already held. It didn't just suddenly originate with that and I don't believe they wouldn't be making such claims in the absence of that event.



Hell no.

We do not need to have American military guarding the grave of a murderer, so fanatics won't show up to worsphip it just to try (and fail) to pacify other fanatics. I think dumping the body at sea was just fine. Yeah, they might have no gotten the Islamic law right, but then, the Administration was under no obligation to even try to do this. The could have just destroyed without trying to comply.

He doesn't need a grave and we sure as hell don't need to spend resources guarding it.

You've completely misunderstood my post. I'm simply using my country as an example of one such nation/country who are suspicious about it. About the "experts", I'd believe them. Of course, there would be nutty ones that's in absolute denial, but anyone with enough sanity would certainly believe in the opinions of many impartial experts. But as DK (Darth Krypt) said, it really all boils down to how much you're willing to believe the story.

Dude, do you even not understand the strategic implications about the US military securing and guarding his grave??? if anybody, who in their right mind would go to a madman's grave only to be caught and possibly sent to Gitmo??

Do you understand?? by doing that, we can possibly do a bait strategy for his followers. It's something like "come and get it if you want". In which it's a total trap and all.

Edited by Codus N, 04 May 2011 - 04:38 PM.

[Nate River]

You've completely misunderstood my post. I'm simply using my country as an example of one such nation/country who are suspicious about it. About the "experts", I'd believe them. Of course, there would be nutty ones that's in absolute denial, but anyone with enough sanity would certainly believe in the opinions of many impartial experts. But as DK (Darth Krypt) said, it really all boils down to how much you're willing to believe the story.

The photos and video would be generated by the same Administration these people already don't believe.

Like I said, I don't really care if he releases them. His call, but I don't think he should do it to satisfy consipiracy theorists who seem to believe that he'd willing sacrifce his Presidency over this, espeically when he said over two years ago that getting Bin Laden wasn't a top priority.

Dude, do you even not understand the strategic implications about the US military securing and guarding his grave??? if anybody, who in their right mind would go to a madman's grave only to be caught and possibly sent to Gitmo??

Do you understand?? by doing that, we can possibly do a bait strategy for his followers. It's something like "come and get it if you want". In which it's a total trap and all.

I'm not going to further debate this issue because it's moot. Body's gone.

All I'll say, is I don't think this would work as well as you think it would.

[Codus N]

The photos and video would be generated by the same Administration these people already don't believe.

Like I said, I don't really care if he releases them. His call, but I don't think he should do it to satsify consipirary theorists who seem to believe that he'd willing sacrifce his Presidency over this.

Point taken. But really, if someone cried out it's fake, they would be proven wrong with experts' testimonies if it was indeed the real deal. I mean, this is a BIG, BIG deal. Surely the whole world over would have their "experts" testify it. It would be thousands, if not hundreds.

I'm not going to further debate this issue because it's moot. Body's gone.

All I'll say, is I don't think this would work as well as you think it would.

Fine. Have it your way. I'm just saying stuff on how it could go a better way.

Edited by Codus N, 04 May 2011 - 04:53 PM.

[Sakura Blossoms]

For crying out loud, people will always find something to get pissed off/offended at -.-

http://news.yahoo.co..._laden_geronimo

[alexander]

You've completely misunderstood my post. I'm simply using my country as an example of one such nation/country who are suspicious about it. About the "experts", I'd believe them. Of course, there would be nutty ones that's in absolute denial, but anyone with enough sanity would certainly believe in the opinions of many impartial experts. But as DK (Darth Krypt) said, it really all boils down to how much you're willing to believe the story.

Dude, do you even not understand the strategic implications about the US military securing and guarding his grave??? if anybody, who in their right mind would go to a madman's grave only to be caught and possibly sent to Gitmo??

Do you understand?? by doing that, we can possibly do a bait strategy for his followers. It's something like "come and get it if you want". In which it's a total trap and all.

That's exactly my point, the pictures can be examined by the expertises, but the DNA test wasn't, after all nobody apart from the american government was able to confirme it, right? Oh well doesn't matter anymore anyway, Osama probabily would have appeared in the media by now to mock Obama. And about using Osama's grave as a trap, I agree, it probally woudn't work, these man might be fanatics, but they are not that stupid to fall for something like that.

[Zero BD]

<--- Don't want to be posted to guard Osama's body... I'm not saying that just cause I'm lazy, well... maybe I am. XD

[Nick Soapdish]

Getting back to the celebrations a bit, this fake quote mistakenly attributed to Mark Twain sums it up pretty well for me.

"I've never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with great pleasure."

The real quote is by Clarence Darrow which I only learned when I was trying to look up the exact words.

"All men have an emotion to kill; when they strongly dislike some one they involuntarily wish he was dead. I have never killed any one, but I have read some obituary notices with great satisfaction."

[Nate River]

Fine. Have it your way. I'm just saying stuff on how it could go a better way.

Okay, I will.

For crying out loud, people will always find something to get pissed off/offended at -.-

http://news.yahoo.co..._laden_geronimo

Did you delete and repost this because I swore I saw it earlier in the day.

EDIT: I pretty much feel the same way Nick does about the celebrations.