244 replies to this topic

[Konoha'sCrimsonFox]

Yahagi and Kenji was his rains and testicles. When they both left, Kishi lost them and now is nothing but an empty shell of his former self.

Edited by Konoha'sCrimsonFox, 09 May 2015 - 10:02 AM.

[rocci]

I don't think kenji left.

[goldenarms]

Look, after this, I'm just dropping the matter because it's like talking to a brick wall right now, and all it does is frustrate me to the point that I purposely did not open this site for about two days after posting my last comment; I figured how the conversation would go, and, lo and behold, you have not disappointed me in this. A number of your arguments circumvent points that aren't being factually addressed, you have not provided proof for a number of assumptions that you like to claim as fact, and it's just obnoxious for this argument to have gone this far and has not done anything but make us a pair of jackasses digging into the dirt. I take some blame for that because I believe in equality for characters, even if some may not be my most favorites. In summary of things that may not be addressed directly here on this last subject, let's just agree to disagree and call it a day; on the plus side, I get to go all out in my argumentative flow... or would, if I understood the editing system better.

 

 

Well that's rich 

 

 

I don't know, IMO the one being affected by bias here is most likely you...please, "stalk" as a word has a universal definition and it is written on the dictionary, no matter the english one, spanish one, portuguese one, japanese one, the same thing will be there...however you are talking about a country legal system, that is particular of said country, it isn't the exact same thing in every one of them you understand now?

That's why it made no sense for you to bring a definition of stalking from the US legal system, it's pointless and makes no sense

 

 

The word "stalk" originates from Middle English, dating back as far as the 1200s. Then, it was known as the word "stalken," of which, the root word translates to "steal."

 

Already, that's not a good connotation for the term "stalk."

 

Also, before 1991, the word "stalk," "stalking," and "stalker" applied to hunting wild game silently, and is synonymous with "poach," "poaching," and "poacher." After 1991, the United States media coined the term "stalking" as a label for obsessive people that secretly followed, harassed, and targeted celebrities for malicious purposes. It's because of this that we have a legal definition for stalking, of which I've already given you.

 

So, no, your definition wouldn't be "universal," as it doesn't mean the same thing here as it would in places that don't have anti-stalking laws. In fact, let's go to a Japanese website that is defining stalking in their terms.

 

http://www.japantime...d/#.VU-r75NiPTo

 

You can read the article yourself, but this is how they define stalking (sorry, big image):

 

 

As I said before, stalking is more than just admiration at a distance. There has to ill intent involved in the process, or else, at worst, it's fanboying/fangirling. Even the Japanese agree with me in that regard.

 

 

Please I advise you to read the chapter 34 again, he is clearly embarassed, even says so in the previous page, trying to change manga facts won't take you anywhere

 

http://www.mangaread...chapter-34.html

 

 

 

The pages in question. Now show me where is Naruto "embarrassed."

 

The moment Konohamaru asks, he's grinning like an idiot without so much as a hesitation. In case you miss it, I circled it in red. Next part, Naruto's chuckling and congratulating Konohamaru on his perceptiveness.

 

Again, Naruto is far from embarrassed; in fact, he looks quite pleased to be mistaken as such.

 

 

 

If you're using this defintion of harass I take it you're ready to accept the definition of stalking from the dictionary and the obvious fact that Hinata's character falls within them? 

 

I'd say though that your use of the word harass relating Naruto is awfully exaggerated at least in the canon manga, because there Naruto actually asks Sakura out only a few times, two times she ends up accepting even, her annoyance of him is mostly due to his remarks and overall stupidity specially during early part 1.

In fact he one relationship that would be most likely related to harassment in team 7 is the relationship between Sakura (and the rest of Sasuke's fangirls) and Sasuke himself,  I mean he cares for her specifically as a teammate during some point but unlike Naruto and Sakura relationship where there had a gradual change in their dynamics, Sasuke always regarded Sakura as an annyance during whole part 1

 

First, you're going to pretend I posted that "point over your head" image here, because I don't feel like looking it up. And you saved me even more trouble by pointing out how Naruto harassment is "exaggerated," of which I was using as a point that Hinata's "stalking" is exaggerated. So, yeah, I was stealing your schtick in hopes of getting the point across in a different way, but I see I was far more optimistic in its success.

 

And I could go into Narusaku dynamics and Sasuke's feelings from what's seen and reading beneath the beneath, but let's just agree to disagree in this regard; I feel it'll just annoy us both in the end.

 

 

 

You got it wrong 

 

 

 

 

 

Kishimoto retcons in the last makes Sakura selfish words during chapter 3 ring true and her words during the POAL make 0 sense. If Naruto never had any special feelings for Sakura, he just wanted her as a prize to scorn Sasuke then this falls into defintion of "annoying Naruto disrupting my love life " that Sakura gave us early on and destroys the "He understands..." thoughts she had on the POAL chapter 

 

Futhermore, Naruto himself calls Sakura out as a liar during the Kage Summit arc, he said she was lying to herself, well that's ironic if we take the last retcons in consideration because then the one lying to himslef would be Naruto and this makes him a hypocrite. 

 

Kishimoto could resolve NS in other manners without trying to retcon the already estabilished feelings Naruto had for Sakura, making him move on or something, put a heartwarming moment between the two to show they still conisder each other best friends and go from there, instead he completely retconned Naruto's character into a selfish, hypocritical prick that wanted Sakura just for his rivalry with Sasuke, this together with the whole lot of retcons of that movie thing made the japanese fans themselves to call Naruto "the ultimate scumbag"

 

First thing's first...

 

I have not watched The Last. Not for any personal reason, I just haven't gotten around to seeing it for myself yet (hell, I haven't seen anything past the movie with Amara(?), so I'm way behind). Because, I know and understand the passion of some can lead to... "exaggerating" what's really going on, so until I watch it with my own eyes, I'm going to reserve judgment until after a good viewing.

 

But on the assumption everything is 100% true, sure it's a dumb plot-twist, though I would be hesitant to say it's not foreshadowed in some way. One of the things I've always found interesting is that whenever we had a possibly romantic-linked scene for Sakura in Part 2, we didn't see Naruto's expression. When Sai asks if he loves Sakura, we only have his verbal answer, which reads a certain way. We do not have an expression to go along with it. And that is something that makes all the difference in the world -- if, for example, Naruto had an expression like this:

 

 

That would totally change the tone, make it sound rather sinister and malevolent, whereas a face like this:

 

 

Would sell us not only on Naruto's sincerity, it would also make us feel his suffering in regards being unable to save people that are important to him. But instead, we get only the back of Naruto's head whenever those major defining points come up, and whenever I see such things like that creeping up, I get suspicious about the author's motives -- why draw the scene that way instead of another? Due to that, and due to what development I've seen, I didn't get too attached to the idea of a NaruSaku ending. It's something that I felt might have happened, due to traditionally how stories like these tend to resolve, but I left myself open to most other possibilities (except SasuNaruSasu because that's an asspull of epic proportions, and I think Masashi himself was aware of this, hence Naruto's very vocal negative reactions to Konohamaru's Boy-on-Boy tech, as well as Kakashi's offhand comment about "falling for" him during the elemental training sessions).

 

Does that mean Masashi actually planned these things? It's possible, though I suspect most here wouldn't buy it. However, it did make me think a little more than just what's on the surface. After all, we're talking about ninja society; why should their feelings be totally transparent to the readers?

 

 

"Proof"...wow this is a stretch   

There is no need for proof here, we are not in police or detective investigation m8. You gave me a situation where said person goes constantly to a certain place with the exact objective of watching another perston train or exercise...that's stalking

 

simple as that

 

 

I said "So, if I were to happen upon someone doing exercise and watched them without saying anything for a few moments, does that automatically mean I'm a stalker? Or for the matter, is it stalking if you happen upon a scene that captures your attention?"

 

We have no indication that this was a repeated occurence, just a one-time deal. and you already answered that as effectively "no." So, unless you have some hard proof that Hinata was, by the Japanese legal definition, repeatedly lying in wait to pester and harass Naruto, she's not stalking, nor is she a stalker.

 

 

 

And yet, we only have hints that lead to the fact that she was stalking and not to the fact that she wasn't...c'mon really?

You're trying to change the goalpost because the canon story hints through and through that Hinata used to specially observe Naruto during the academy time, going as far as to watch him training, you can't deny that so now you're trying ( and failing) to discredit such hints.

Hints aren't only relevant in murder-mystery stories, it's a common narrative piece any author can put there just to hint something without fully giving everything or to lead readers to a conclusion

The conclusion relating to hints of "Hinata being a stalker" is obvious: Hinata observed Naruto during academy time, she watched him while hidden and his nindo gave her strenght.  The fact that she constantly watched/observed him makes her fall within the definition of stalker during those few years

 

I don't know why even are you trying to deny that Hinata is a stalker...I mean the definition of the word doesn't have that huge of a negative meaning, it's just says it's refers to a person who constantly watches/follow other person for a reason, depending on the reason however(...). Hinata's reason was because watching Naruto gave her strenght, really it's not like I'm trying to paint her as an obssessive freak 

 

 

Because, as I've repeatedly stated before, "stalker" IS a negative issue; it's a CRIME, hence why we had to make LAWS to deal with it. It's not "cute" or "harmless;" people kittening die to stalkers, or live in paranoia for possibly their entire lives. Stalking is deadly serious business, and has always been rooted in such. You seem to act as though, "eh, it doesn't mean anything" when it really does. For example, if you were to walk around the street for eight hours wearing a sign that says "I AM A STALKER," I highly doubt you'll find the experience pleasant because, yes, you've been painted as a obsessive freak monster. Is it that hard to understand? It's like being labeled a sex offender... it's a huge black mark against you and your character.

 

As for hints, well, let's say there's more than enough reason to not hang onto every hint, seeing that all the so-called NakuSaku hints amounted to a hill of beans. Sure, you'll say, "But it's there!" Just like folks that support SasuNaruSasu will say, "But the hints are there!" Those that hang onto hints as a means of divining the future or characters are inevitably going to be disappointed. Instead, you have to look at the whole picture -- that means examining character, actions, and behavior -- or else, it's baseless assumptions. I have no problem saying Hinata often admired Naruto in their Academy days -- all the evidence that would make this possible are there: they were in the same class for long periods of time; Sakura had personally witnessed Hinata admiring Naruto often while they were in class; Hinata adopts Naruto's never give up attitude after witnessing him training in the woods one day. Saying Hinata frequently followed Naruto doesn't hold water, though, as there is a lack of any proof, testimony, incidence, or admittance to back this claim. Same with saying that Hinata is naturally a blonde and her family constantly dyes her hair black -- no proof, testimony, incidence, or admittance. You can assume all you like, but remember, "assume" makes an "ass" out of "u" and "me."

 

And you have yet to explain how one can someone not doing something produces evidence that they don't do it. It's like demanding a guy show proof that he never had sex. Like, really, how does that work? "Well, I ain't got no kids! Haha!"

 

Not really a conjecture, by the fact that she is/was not relevant makes sense for us to not to dive deep in her storyline, but at the same type we are given hints,  thoughts and statements. We know that hInata observed Naruto constantly, and that watching him gave her strenght during the academy time, but how did she managed to watch his never give up attitude if she didn't saw him train constantly to back up his boisterious boasts from te class?

 

The fact that you read the scene that way shows how much bias you have...that' can be interpreted in a more believable way than the speculation that "she was going home" that  you're trying to do, it's relatively simple, look, Hinata before seeing Naruto was weak and always used to give up, after watching him ( constantly as it was hinted) she adopted his nindo. It's simple, there is nothing in the text and subtext that hints to this "she was going home and happened to find him", your bias is trying to find ways to deny the obvious, look at how much conjecture you made based on two simple panels, how much conjecture you had to do to try to show that Hinata wasn't stalking ...completely unnecessary. You're also wrong, because we have hints from before that shows us that Hinata used to constantly observe him, so it makes no sense to try to put that scene as a "only once" event.

It' was also pretty funny to see you trying to argue that Hinata wasn't hiding behind the tree when she clearly was.

 

I didn't say she wasn't hiding; I said you would think she would be hiding much better if she wasn't trying to be seen, you know, like how Ninja generally hide and peek. Hinata was leaning out from behind the tree, which comes across to me as someone that just walked in on something she wasn't expecting. After all, Academy grounds, you would expect this to happen at some point, since they go to the same school, have the same classes, and use the same training grounds. This would be a different case if Hinata was peeking at Naruto training in his backyard.

 

And, like I said, it's only two panels. No significant passage of time to indicate the days are different, nor has the setting changed. Without something to say, "Hey, these panels did not happened at the same time" you read them as occurring the same day. Manga/comics books is oftentimes a sequential art -- Panel B follows after Panel A. And hell, even then, if Masashi was to portray Hinata as constantly peeking in on Naruto, that would be the perfect time to make that abundantly clear. Since he does not, though, my interpretation is that Hinata wasn't meant to be portrayed as a lost little puppy hopelessly following Naruto around.

 

Those are the shots Masashi chose, so they have to have a purpose. If Hinata's purpose was to be a psychotic Naruto fangirl, he would have shown that instead of leaving it totally to imagination. He certainly does just this with Karin; I fail to see why he wouldn't do likewise with someone he felt would make a better main character than Sakura.

 

And for the love of God, stop talking as if there are pages and pages of proof-positive scenes of Hinata skulking around Naruto all over the place, as that really makes me think we're most certainly are not reading the same manga. Either that, or start posting the images in question to back everything up.

 

 

It's obvious, she herself says that it's a selfish moments and she goes there mainly just to confess because she knew she was no match for Pein and she would probably die.

 

Book. Because I want to read what you're reading to pull all these wild ass assumptions and weird dialogue that I'm not finding in my book sources.

 

http://www.mangapand...hapter-437.html

http://www.mangapand...hapter-437.html

 

There is nothing in there to suggest that Hinata tried to sneak attack Pain because she needed to confess her heart; in fact, Hinata was trying to murderkill him like a ninja before he realized it.

 

 

I'm not fighting against Hinata's involvement over there, you got me wrong, I'm just saying that it made sense for her to go there because fo her own fear pf not confessing ever

 

[snip]

 

Not really    I mean unless you're trying to argue that Hinata was dumb and actually though she had  a chance to save Naruto and defeat Pein then the fact that she went there to confess is the only option and also falls perfectly into the line with her talk about being selfish

Besides if she went there to save him, why confess in first place? She clearly knew that was a useless attack but wanted to try it anyway 

If it was Sakura well, I don't really see Sakura doing that at that time, but no I would  have no problem shredding my bias (unlike you) and analysing her if she was the Hinata of that situation.

 

Holy kitten, you actually believe the words you're typing, don't you? "Oh, I can't beat Pain; might as well confess my feelings and die, trololo YOLO!"
 

This... I don't even have the words. Just... I don't even.

 

I'm not going to argue this anymore. It hurts my head to see such ignorant kitten like this. I'm sorry, it just does. I don't know if you just think so poorly of Hinata that this is your reality, or you're just flat-out irrational because of how the series ended, but either way, it makes absolutely no sense for me to debate and argue when this is all you see. "Well, she knew she couldn't beat Pain, so it makes sense to confess." Like, seriously, what planet do you live on where that's logic? \

 

I'm done. I'm honestly done with this. It's pointless and now it's making me reconsider my opinion of the board.

 

Have fun. I might come back in a couple of days, but not to this. Because holy kitten.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

The problem I have is that, all too often, I see people try to justify Hinata jumping in by trying to make it out that all the other characters suddenly just became cold and heartless (or at least Sakura), not even wanting to try to do anything to help Naruto. Really? None of Naruto's other friends or comrades weren't just wanting to go rushing in there to help when they saw Naruto having trouble? If I recall, Shikamaru himself was cursing his own inability to do anything due to his injuries, but there's also the fact that they themselves knew there was nothing that they could realistically do that could help. This was a battle between two powerhouses that they had no hope of keeping up with (and they already experienced Pein's power firsthand). They knew that if they tried to rush in to help Naruto, it would've have been pointless, result in people dying in vain (and wasting the efforts of ones like Tsunade and Sakura who were trying to keep people alive), and not change the situation for the better. Naruto was the only one who stood a chance.

 

So, it makes little sense that Hinata would go rushing in due to any sort of belief that she could actually beat Pein or improve the situation at all. That only leaves her confession as the only reason she did so (and her admittance to being "selfish" only supports that reason). If anything, Hinata herself proved exactly why it was foolhardy to rush in like that. Not only did it do nothing to improve the situation, but it actually greatly worsened the situation with the way Naruto then exploded into a rage and nearly released Kurama from the seal, nearly leading to Konoha's, and who knows how much else's, destruction were it not for convenient Minato seal hax. And people tend to (choose to) continuously overlook the type of person Naruto was at the time - he saw everyone in the whole village as his precious people. It would not have mattered if it were Hinata who got "killed", or if it were Sakura, Shikamaru, Kiba, Shino, Sai, Lee, Ino, Chouji, Neji, Tenten, Konohamaru, Gai, Kurenai, or even just a random, nameless villager, Naruto would have reacted the same way in that situation. Someone else died trying to protect him and he was "too weak" to prevent it from happening and he hates that sort of situation. It's why he skipped out early on Sage Training and initial Kurama chakra training; as soon as he heard there were people who, in his mind, were fighting and possibly dying just to protect him (which makes him selfish in ways too), he just has to go to make sure they don't and to do it all himself.

Basically, unless you look at everything through the rosiest tinted lens' you can find, there's no real way to make Hinata's "intervention" look like a good thing (at least in terms of the canon manga, ignoring the completely anime original SP expansion of the scene). It either makes her look very dumb for actually thinking she alone could improve the situation, or very selfish by only doing so to make a deathbed style confession.

[Nar123]

goldenarms, on 10 May 2015 - 8:28 PM, said:

 

Look, after this, I'm just dropping the matter because it's like talking to a brick wall right now, and all it does is frustrate me to the point that I purposely did not open this site for about two days after posting my last comment; I figured how the conversation would go, and, lo and behold, you have not disappointed me in this. A number of your arguments circumvent points that aren't being factually addressed, you have not provided proof for a number of assumptions that you like to claim as fact, and it's just obnoxious for this argument to have gone this far and has not done anything but make us a pair of jackasses digging into the dirt. I take some blame for that because I believe in equality for characters, even if some may not be my most favorites. In summary of things that may not be addressed directly here on this last subject, let's just agree to disagree and call it a day; on the plus side, I get to go all out in my argumentative flow... or would, if I understood the editing system better.

 

 

 

 

Wow, really    ?

Sorry I did not know  this conversation was bothering so much you that much, I mean just saw this whole discussion as two people debating their different POV's of some scenes and events in the series, simple as that, kind of like you know the kind of discussion that happen regularly at forums

...

Now you had to be rude and actually accuse me of not "providing proof" yet not giving any examples of it and of circumventing arguments when you basically did the same thing    .

Pls, I thought this debate had a better level than this

 

Your belief in equality of characters makes no sense in this case really, if you didn't know we are discussing about Naruto, can you honestly say that the author of this series believed in equality of characters? Did he gave the same kind of spotlight to all of his MC's? Did he respected all of his plot points estabilished in the beginning? Did he developed his important characters and made clear and cohesive character arcs for them? The answer is no, of course

 

Naruto had no equality, therefore trying to discuss with an equal view makes no sense.  

To analyse this story you have to forget your beliefs of "equality" and actually try to understand what happened to some characters, like for example Hinata, who in part 2 was just a flanderized version of herself or even Sakura who began part 2 actually developing but then was reduced to her badly done romantic plot line once again.

 

goldenarms, on 10 May 2015 - 8:28 PM, said:

 

The word "stalk" originates from Middle English, dating back as far as the 1200s. Then, it was known as the word "stalken," of which, the root word translates to "steal."

 

Already, that's not a good connotation for the term "stalk."

 

Also, before 1991, the word "stalk," "stalking," and "stalker" applied to hunting wild game silently, and is synonymous with "poach," "poaching," and "poacher." After 1991, the United States media coined the term "stalking" as a label for obsessive people that secretly followed, harassed, and targeted celebrities for malicious purposes. It's because of this that we have a legal definition for stalking, of which I've already given you.

 

So, no, your definition wouldn't be "universal," as it doesn't mean the same thing here as it would in places that don't have anti-stalking laws. In fact, let's go to a Japanese website that is defining stalking in their terms.

 

http://www.japantime...d/#.VU-r75NiPTo

 

You can read the article yourself, but this is how they define stalking (sorry, big image):

 

 

As I said before, stalking is more than just admiration at a distance. There has to ill intent involved in the process, or else, at worst, it's fanboying/fangirling. Even the Japanese agree with me in that regard.

 

 

You really did dig deeper to find the oldest definition of stalker possibly didn't you? Sorry but this doesn't actually counter my point of the word meaning in the dictionary fitting Hinata's character, futhermore your claims of what the word "stalker" originated from is quite useless you see because the language is one thing that it's constantly changing, it's not static, thus whatever meaning "stalker" had in the past changed  in fact...some of your arguments even corroborates with this point of mine, back then "Stalk" was used more in the hunting sense of the word, nowadays the term goes to people who follow around someone (with malign intentions or not) the sole act of following/watching someone without their knowledge and do that constantly is stalking

 

About Japan, I took the liberty of looking into a japanese dictionary myself

 

here it is

 

 

ストーカー- -sutookaa

1. stalker

2. StalkingStalking is a term commonly used to refer to unwanted and obsessive attention by an individual or group to another person. The word stalking is used, with some differing meanings, in psychology and psychiatry and also in some legal jurisdictions as a term for a criminal offense.

 

 

Okay, then I highlighted some terms of interest, it states for example how there are differing meanings to what "stalk" means in the legal jurisdictions of some countries, which further proves my point of your example of the USA or Japan legal jurisdiction not proving anything, what matters in relation to Naruto (the series) is the meaning of the word itself, which I already presented and you keep trying to move the goalpost

 

 

There is this one definition too 

 

 

1. ストーカー
   《忍び寄る者の意》自分が一方的に関心を抱いた相手にしつこくつきまとう人物。待ち伏せ・尾行・手紙や、昼夜をかまわないでファクス・メール・電話などの行為を執拗(しつよう)に繰り返す。→ストーカー規制法
   デジタル大辞泉
2. ストーカー行為
   《stalkerは忍び寄る者の意》特定の人物やその配偶者・親族などに対し、つきまとい、待ち伏せ、面会・交際の強要、連続した電話やファックス、汚物など嫌悪感を催すものの送付、性的羞恥心を害する行為などを繰り返し行うこと。ストーカー規制法の規制 ...
   デジタル大辞泉
3. ストーカー規制法
   正称，ストーカー行為等の規制等に関する法律。恋愛や好意，また，それらによる怨恨を晴らす目的でのつきまとい，迷惑電話，面会・交際の要求などのストーカー行為を取り締まる。2000年（平成12）制定。→付き纏（まと）い
   大辞林 第三版

 

 

 

The translation by google translate 

 

Stalker
"Creeping person meaning" the other party to persistently haunts the person that he was holding a unilateral interest. And ambush-tailing-letter, repeated relentlessly the act, such as fax and e-mail and telephone obsessively. → Stalker Control Act Digital Daijisen

 

Stalking behavior
"Stalker creeping person meaning" for such as a specific person or the spouse, relatives, stalk, ambush, extortion of visitation, dating, consecutive phone or fax, sending of those hosting the disgust such filth, the sexual sense of shame that is repeated act and that harm. Regulation of Stalker Control Act ...
Digital Daijisen 

 

Stalker Control Act
Official name, Law on Proscribing Stalking Behavior and Assisting Victims. Love and favor, also, haunted for the purpose of dispel a grudge with them, I will crack down on stalking, such as nuisance calls, visitation, dating request. 2000 (2000) enacted. → with clothed (Mato) have
Daijirin third edition

 

 

 

Of course this definiton of stalker is more oriented to modern day japan specially with the last tidbit of the law yourself put there and adding the concepts of telephone, fax and e-mail on it, but the first part which contains the inherent meaning of the word clearly relates to the other dictionary source I posted here  with the definition of "stalking"

 

It's also fair to say that google translate sucks so words such as haunts could really be taken as exaggerations of it, overall the meaning remains quite the same

Edited by Nar123, 11 May 2015 - 05:08 AM.

[Nar123]

 

 

 

 

 

 

The pages in question. Now show me where is Naruto "embarrassed."

 

The moment Konohamaru asks, he's grinning like an idiot without so much as a hesitation. In case you miss it, I circled it in red. Next part, Naruto's chuckling and congratulating Konohamaru on his perceptiveness.

 

Again, Naruto is far from embarrassed; in fact, he looks quite pleased to be mistaken as such.

 

 

 

I actually still don't believe you still chose to argue this matter, well anyway

 

http://www.mangaread...chapter-34.html

 

As you see the whole page shows Naruto that was nervous with the situation already, mainly because of Sakura's deep staring

 

Futhermore we have Naruto blushing, which has been used again and again in this manga to show embarassment of some sort, the exceptions being situations were this clearly isn't the case like for example when someone was drunk

By trying to argue that Naruto blushing doesn't equal to a degree of embarassment  you'e also stuck in trying to argue your way most of the other blush situations (Hinata's included), where it's very clear it was used to show embarassment

 

Of course I'm not also denying that Naruto was not happy/smug for being referenced as Sakura's partner

 

 

 

 

First, you're going to pretend I posted that "point over your head" image here, because I don't feel like looking it up. And you saved me even more trouble by pointing out how Naruto harassment is "exaggerated," of which I was using as a point that Hinata's "stalking" is exaggerated. So, yeah, I was stealing your schtick in hopes of getting the point across in a different way, but I see I was far more optimistic in its success.

 

And I could go into Narusaku dynamics and Sasuke's feelings from what's seen and reading beneath the beneath, but let's just agree to disagree in this regard; I feel it'll just annoy us both in the end.

 

 

I never did exaggerate Hinata's stalking though, my POV is that she only entertained such acts of "stalking" during her academy time

 

Besides you don't really need to read beneath the beneath with Sasuke, as Kishimoto said, Sasuke's a "pure" character in the meaning that he is honest and says what he thinks. 

For example we see pretty clearly that the only bond from konoha he still had was the one with Naruto

 

I said "So, if I were to happen upon someone doing exercise and watched them without saying anything for a few moments, does that automatically mean I'm a stalker? Or for the matter, is it stalking if you happen upon a scene that captures your attention?"

 

 

No, but going repeatedly in such a place with the intention of watching /onserving someone for whatever reason can be considered stalking

 

 

We have no indication that this was a repeated occurence, just a one-time deal. and you already answered that as effectively "no." So, unless you have some hard proof that Hinata was, by the Japanese legal definition, repeatedly lying in wait to pester and harass Naruto, she's not stalking, nor is she a stalker.

 

 

On the contrary, we have a lot of indications of it, some of them I will even reference later in this post

Hinata stalking and always observing Naruto during academy times is referenced, it's just that we just never got much depth on it simply because she was not that relevant, and when she finally had a chance to get depth her backstory suffered the retcon with the added fact that she used to be bullied because of her powerful eyes, which frankly makes no sense

 

The japanese legal definition doesn't matter, neither the US does, what matter is the inherent meaning the word "stalking" implies, Hinata fits in this meaning while she was observing/following Naruto repeatedly  during the academy

 

Stalking is not lying in wait . to pester and harass someone, is following/observing someone with some kind of intent ( most of the times in the RL and even in fiction it's a bad intent, in Hinata's case though, it's not)

 

 

 

First thing's first...

 

I have not watched The Last. Not for any personal reason, I just haven't gotten around to seeing it for myself yet (hell, I haven't seen anything past the movie with Amara(?), so I'm way behind). Because, I know and understand the passion of some can lead to... "exaggerating" what's really going on, so until I watch it with my own eyes, I'm going to reserve judgment until after a good viewing.

 

But on the assumption everything is 100% true, sure it's a dumb plot-twist, though I would be hesitant to say it's not foreshadowed in some way. One of the things I've always found interesting is that whenever we had a possibly romantic-linked scene for Sakura in Part 2, we didn't see Naruto's expression. When Sai asks if he loves Sakura, we only have his verbal answer, which reads a certain way. We do not have an expression to go along with it. And that is something that makes all the difference in the world -- if, for example, Naruto had an expression like this:

 

 

That would totally change the tone, make it sound rather sinister and malevolent, whereas a face like this:

 

 

Would sell us not only on Naruto's sincerity, it would also make us feel his suffering in regards being unable to save people that are important to him. But instead, we get only the back of Naruto's head whenever those major defining points come up, and whenever I see such things like that creeping up, I get suspicious about the author's motives -- why draw the scene that way instead of another? Due to that, and due to what development I've seen, I didn't get too attached to the idea of a NaruSaku ending. It's something that I felt might have happened, due to traditionally how stories like these tend to resolve, but I left myself open to most other possibilities (except SasuNaruSasu because that's an asspull of epic proportions, and I think Masashi himself was aware of this, hence Naruto's very vocal negative reactions to Konohamaru's Boy-on-Boy tech, as well as Kakashi's offhand comment about "falling for" him during the elemental training sessions).

 

 

You're better of not watching that movie, honestly

 

About your whole "what was his face" thing well, that's a nitpick really  , because not only the first look you posted would look completely out of place on such a scene ...

http://www.mangaread...hapter-457.html

...but the fact that scene was a real confirmation  by Naruto is further evidenced by Sai when he used the argument of "keeping smiling around the person you like" and Naruto's subsequent blush and embarassed expression, afterwards though he adquires a serious expression and we have no reason to believe his expression changed somehow in the page afterwards, futhermore we can see that he was also looking at Sakura while confirming his feelings, it leaves little reason to believe that Naruto was smirking (he was never a "smirk" guy in first place)

Naruto's feelings though are not only hinted in this scene but in the whole manga, for example calling Naruto's feelings for Sakura as simple "rivalry" as I said before diminishes most of their important interaction during part 1, and makes Sakura first impression of Naruto, the truth, while making her newer impression of him (thanks to the POAL), false. I suggest you to read chapter 3 again to refresh a little of how negative her first impression of him was

 

Seriously @Golden, I would be able to handle NH if it was done well, it has potential the only problem of it is being underwhelming and making Hinata an outright pairing fodder, but anyway if it was well constructed I could handle it as at least a good tie in to this part of the romantic sub plot, however the last (while it was not the intended meaning) made a complete joke out of NH by retconning Naruto's character and further downgrading Hinata's character from her few developments just to make sure that NH is Naruto's " first love" which in my opinion was completely not needed, I have other complaints about the movie but I will save them because I would go on for too long of a time

 

 

Does that mean Masashi actually planned these things? It's possible, though I suspect most here wouldn't buy it. However, it did make me think a little more than just what's on the surface. After all, we're talking about ninja society; why should their feelings be totally transparent to the readers?

 

 

 

Not really, it's painfully evidenced that Kishimoto didn't plan anything

Your last phrase doesn't stand on it's own, look at Sakura and Hinata for example, after KS arc with the ressurection of Sakura's horrible romance plot line Sakura's feeling where painfully obvious (and ridiculous) and Hinata well, do I even need to argue?

 

 

 

 

 

Because, as I've repeatedly stated before, "stalker" IS a negative issue; it's a CRIME, hence why we had to make LAWS to deal with it. It's not "cute" or "harmless;" people kittening die to stalkers, or live in paranoia for possibly their entire lives. Stalking is deadly serious business, and has always been rooted in such. You seem to act as though, "eh, it doesn't mean anything" when it really does. For example, if you were to walk around the street for eight hours wearing a sign that says "I AM A STALKER," I highly doubt you'll find the experience pleasant because, yes, you've been painted as a obsessive freak monster. Is it that hard to understand? It's like being labeled a sex offender... it's a huge black mark against you and your character.

 

 

So from what I understood you considered Hinata's stalking "cute"?  ...sorry, sorry...serious here

 

And yeah stalking is a crime in modern day world, if a person is feeling threatened  because you keep following them then they can do whatever they can legally to stop you from doing it even if  you were only stalking out of harmless affection and shy behavior

 

Saw what I did here...? Stalking is stalking no matter the reason. The reason is another thing entirely, of course most of the stalkers nowadays are bad people with bad intentions that's why there are laws to defend against them. However as we saw in Naruto, Hinata was a stalker in her academy time, why she did that though? Because she liked seeing Naruto train, she liked to observe him, it gave her strenght....her reason is nothing plainly bad, however it doesn't change that her actions were those of a stalker

 

Eh I already know where you are confusing yourself though, you're trying to apply somehow what the general modern  society thinks of stalkers and trying to use it to show that Hinata was not a stalker, I got your thinking. But this really doesn't change that Hinata's actions fell into stalker definition, we just don't treat her like general society treats people regarded as stalkers because Hinata's character was made to be sympathetic to us readers, we understand why she did that , why she had to watch Naruto train....however as I said just because she is sympathetic to us it doesn't change she was acting as a stalker at the time

 

Let me give you an example 

You're reading a story in which character A kills character B because character B was an a-hole that kept threatening chaaracter A family and actually almost managed to kill part of it. See this? It would be understandable why A did that and most readers would actually understand and even symphatyze however it wouldn't change that character A commited murder

 

Also...comparing being labelled as a stalker to a sex offender is too much of a stretch, lol...

 

And, like I said, it's only two panels. No significant passage of time to indicate the days are different, nor has the setting changed. Without something to say, "Hey, these panels did not happened at the same time" you read them as occurring the same day. Manga/comics books is oftentimes a sequential art -- Panel B follows after Panel A. And hell, even then, if Masashi was to portray Hinata as constantly peeking in on Naruto, that would be the perfect time to make that abundantly clear. Since he does not, though, my interpretation is that Hinata wasn't meant to be portrayed as a lost little puppy hopelessly following Naruto around.

 

Those are the shots Masashi chose, so they have to have a purpose. If Hinata's purpose was to be a psychotic Naruto fangirl, he would have shown that instead of leaving it totally to imagination. He certainly does just this with Karin; I fail to see why he wouldn't do likewise with someone he felt would make a better main character than Sakura.

 

And for the love of God, stop talking as if there are pages and pages of proof-positive scenes of Hinata skulking around Naruto all over the place, as that really makes me think we're most certainly are not reading the same manga. Either that, or start posting the images in question to back everything up.

 

 

I could argue too that without something to say that they happened at the same day you couldn't just prove it that it happened at the same day

Futhermore, that was not subsequential art (Panel B follows Panel A), the panels did not really followed each other, in fact it was a flashback meant to show simply that Hinata was weak spirited before and then she gained strenght to change. Hinata's choice of words too, give the impression that she is talking about two different situations, one to show how she was before and one to show she gained strenght to try to change after seeing Naruto.

Kishimoto doesn't really needed to outright show Hinata' stalking Naruto everywhere, it was shown she watched him train and that she observed a lot during the class, it's hinted by Hinata's own words and other statements that Hinata was doing it so repeatedly, those actions configure her as a stalker

 

Now you're trying again to put "stalking" not just as a specific method of actions but within the rotule of "psychotic fangirl", never once I argued Hinata was psychotic, others may have but not once I did. Your mistake is trying to say stalking is stalking because of sa predetermined bad reason (which is not the case) when it's just reference to some certain actions

 

Well Hinata's not that relevant in the manga but it was said and hinted that she stalked Naruto during academy times

Hinata saying it

http://www.mangaread...hapter-437.html

Sakura saying it...

http://www.mangaread...chapter-80.html

Hinata thinking it

http://www.mangaread...chapter-80.html

"I know better than anyone else..."--shows that she was watching him

http://www.mangaread...chapter-80.html

Anyway these should bring the point home.

 

(Off topic: Just reading that part 1 battle again shows how much of it was better than part 2, smh...)

 

About your point about  Karin ...well I don't exactly remember how many times or even if Karin was shown as a stalker but...

Karin at times was more relevant than Hinata because she was in the team of a MC Sasuke while Hinata was not, arguing that just "because he showed Karin stalking her love interest so he should have shown Hinata doing it too" is weak since in a story not every situation needs to be the same or regarded as the same. Besides Hinata's stalking mostly took place during academy times which we only go though mostly flashbacks and statements

 

Book. Because I want to read what you're reading to pull all these wild ass assumptions and weird dialogue that I'm not finding in my book sources.

 

http://www.mangapand...hapter-437.html

http://www.mangapand...hapter-437.html

 

There is nothing in there to suggest that Hinata tried to sneak attack Pain because she needed to confess her heart; in fact, Hinata was trying to murderkill him like a ninja before he realized it.

 

 

First thing, there are not "wild ass assumptions or weird ass dialogue"

In this page

http://www.mangapand...hapter-437.html

Hinata acknowledges she knew she wouldn't be able to defeat Pein, attacking "like a ninja" notwithstanding, she knew he would evade and subsequenlty wreck her, unless you're trying to say Hinata was confident she would defeat him even if she said otherwise 

Then the subsequent page has Hinata saying she intervened for a selfish reasons and confessing in the end. I ask of you...what was this selfish reason besides wanting to expose her feelings one final time? She didn't need to do so if she intended and had a way to save him, it was a pure emotional decision

 

The anime tried  to change the scene by making Hinata actually try to do something other than confess and  get KO'ed for pure fanservice...I'm talking about the CANON manga though 

 

 

Edited by Nar123, 11 May 2015 - 05:40 AM.

[Popuri]

@Nar123

I have a question for you in The Random Thread

Edited by xpopurix, 11 May 2015 - 04:42 AM.

[Nar123]

 
Holy kitten, you actually believe the words you're typing, don't you? "Oh, I can't beat Pain; might as well confess my feelings and die, trololo YOLO!"
 
This... I don't even have the words. Just... I don't even.
 

 
Yep, that was her intent, she knew she couldn't beat Pein, she knew it was useless she acknowledge it was selfish , she went there to confess , to expose her feelings...simply this
 
All I see in you is denial, which is sad. You try to paint yourself as someone with no bias at times but it's very clear you have some hard bias that interfere with your judgement
 
 

I'm not going to argue this anymore. It hurts my head to see such ignorant kitten like this. I'm sorry, it just does. I don't know if you just think so poorly of Hinata that this is your reality, or you're just flat-out irrational because of how the series ended, but either way, it makes absolutely no sense for me to debate and argue when this is all you see. "Well, she knew she couldn't beat Pain, so it makes sense to confess." Like, seriously, what planet do you live on where that's logic? \
 
 

 
@Bolded: Naruto (the series)/Kishimoto has no clear logic, that's why things were retconned, changed, forgotten and made no sense in the end, that's why cellphones, tablets , macbooks and skyscrappers suddenly came from nowhere
 
now that we got this out of the way...
 
It's not the case that I think too poorly of Hinata or something like that (in fact I really liked her in part 1), I just see that confession scene for what it is instead of sugar coating like every other fan who is blinded by Hinata worship out there. It's not irrational thinking and I'm deeply sorry you think this way, because it proves what I thought...you're really biased towards Hinata's character, you can't even fathom not recognizing that the confession scene is something not worth of the mindless praising part of the fandom does.
 
It's easy to see though, it's right there on her own words
-Hinata knew she couldn't defeat Pein, she knew it was useless
-She admitted it was a selfish reason 
-She confessed
everything adds up to this conclusin, in fact you fought and tried to discredit this simple conclusion yet...you never gave another interpretation of the scene that made sense with it's dialogue and actions...well
It's easy to see which one of us is talking BS here
 
Also I will let something clear here:
I'm not blaming Hinata's character or anything, that scene in the manga made sense character-wise unlike the one the anime did where Hinata was painted as this mary-sue victim with retconned flashbacks and sparkly blue hair
If anything I'm disappointed that Kishi resolved that 437 in such a contrived way, because if we go by the last, even after witnessing Hinata's confession and having a deep emotional kinect knowledge, Naruto is retconned into having the emotional depth and knowledge of a character like Goku, to the point to think that the whole point of Hinata's confession was to say that she loved him like he loved ramen (lol) 
 
 

 

I'm  done. I'm honestly done with this. It's pointless and now it's making me reconsider my opinion of the board.
 
 
Have fun. I might come back in a couple of days, but not to this. Because holy kitten.
 

 
I have to say, this is a board, a forum not everyone is going to have the same opinion every single time even if we all (theoretically) have something in common that is liking NS to a degree.
If you're indeed felt bothered/challenged by my POV, wihich I explained with manga facts, statements and what not...then yeah, maybe not any kind of forum isn't the best place for you if you actually don't like of having your views challenged   
 
I have to also add that it was never my point to insult you or anything, however as I harsh as I may sound in my writing...which you however I sensed quite a hostlity in your words...don't know if that was your intent or not
So yeah maybe it's better to agree to disagree, it's clear that our POV's won't really match ever, you're still circumventing arguments and holding onto some when they clear make no sense in manga conext 
 
Anyway, best of regards   I think you're quite a good debater even if your analyses on the manga are heavily affected by your own opinion

Edited by Nar123, 12 May 2015 - 04:36 AM.

[Popuri]

@Nar123

I have a question for you in the random thread. It's about cheating in US. If you're from US, please answer I'm curious

[Nar123]

@Nar123

I have a question for you in the random thread. It's about cheating in US. If you're from US, please answer I'm curious

 

I answered !

[Aizen-Sama]

Have Sakura like Naruto and not Sasuke from the start and make Hinata not exist. Then Sakura would be more popular.

[rocci]

Have Sakura like Naruto and not Sasuke from the start and make Hinata not exist. Then Sakura would be more popular.

Then naruto will not love sakura, and we will get two girls one boy love triangle.

[Aizen-Sama]

Then naruto will not love sakura, and we will get two girls one boy love triangle.

Naruto liked Sakura from the start, how would he not like her anymore if she liked him back? I also said Hinata would not exist so I don't know where you get the 2 girls 1 boy thing.

[sushi.]

Then naruto will not love sakura, and we will get two girls one boy love triangle.

But Naru has the hots for Sasu too. ;)

[rocci]

Naruto liked Sakura from the start, how would he not like her anymore if she liked him back? I also said Hinata would not exist so I don't know where you get the 2 girls 1 boy thing.

Yes I know naruto love sakura, that's why I said naruto need to not love sakura if sakura love naruto since her introduction, because it will make NS canon. Since naruto and sakura open with their feeling.
In most shonen manga pairing only happen near or at the end of manga.

[goldenarms]

Well, like I said, I am back. Had to assimilate the idea that someone really, wholly believes the idea that "Hinata was so desperate for Naruto that she threw herself in front of a truck just to confess her feelings" and NOT have a raging hateboner for her and/or her fans. At least, not one that I've detected yet. So, yeah, wow. Mind blown.

 

Also, as I said, I'm not going to continue here -- I get the impression that it bugs the crap out of others, seeing that no one else has really gotten involved. A bit different to TFF; I don't know how I feel about that.

 

Now to answer the obvious looming question, just to get it out of the way, as it's somewhat related to the original topic at hand. I'm not really a NaruSaku shipper; I used to ship it in the past, though,* and even wrote a few fics/ficlets about them, but, if anything, Sakura comes across as too ordinary in the grand scheme of things, something which I felt hurts her character more than being a Sasuke fangirl. When it comes to doing her job, she's just competent at it; she's not an awesome buttkicking machine like Sasuke, nor does she freeze up like Naruto and therefore require some character growth. She's perfectly capable of doing what she was trained to do like the average ninja. Unfortunately, the worst sin any important character can commit is being average. While some like the idea of Sakura being ordinary, her job as a main character should be extraordinary in some definable manner; otherwise, you may find yourself losing interest in her. Part 2 tried to correct that problem by making her super awesome. The problem here, though, is that she became essentially Tsunade-Lite, and worse, she got locked into that role forever be locked into that position, as she lacked anything definable to set her apart from others. Her standout moments mostly center on her being praised as a younger version of a pre-existing character instead of something of her own that she generated.

 

Something as simple as this:

 

 

Would have raised her stock considerably. It's different from all her peers, plus it makes her stand out as her own character, not a xerox copy. In short, it's awesome and is bound to have fans wanting to know more about her.

 

* Before you ask, no, I did not "replace" the void of NaruSaku with NaruHina; that's what Tayuya is for. :)

Edited by goldenarms, 12 May 2015 - 09:41 PM.

[Nar123]

Well, like I said, I am back. Had to assimilate the idea that someone really, wholly believes the idea that "Hinata was so desperate for Naruto that she threw herself in front of a truck just to confess her feelings" and NOT have a raging hateboner for her and/or her fans. At least, not one that I've detected yet. So, yeah, wow. Mind blown.
 
Also, as I said, I'm not going to continue here -- I get the impression that it bugs the crap out of others, seeing that no one else has really gotten involved. A bit different to TFF; I don't know how I feel about that.
 
Now to answer the obvious looming question, just to get it out of the way, as it's somewhat related to the original topic at hand. I'm not really a NaruSaku shipper; I used to ship it in the past, though,* and even wrote a few fics/ficlets about them, but, if anything, Sakura comes across as too ordinary in the grand scheme of things, something which I felt hurts her character more than being a Sasuke fangirl. When it comes to doing her job, she's just competent at it; she's not an awesome buttkicking machine like Sasuke, nor does she freeze up like Naruto and therefore require some character growth. She's perfectly capable of doing what she was trained to do like the average ninja. Unfortunately, the worst sin any important character can commit is being average. While some like the idea of Sakura being ordinary, her job as a main character should be extraordinary in some definable manner; otherwise, you may find yourself losing interest in her. Part 2 tried to correct that problem by making her super awesome. The problem here, though, is that she became essentially Tsunade-Lite, and worse, she got locked into that role forever be locked into that position, as she lacked anything definable to set her apart from others. Her standout moments mostly center on her being praised as a younger version of a pre-existing character instead of something of her own that she generated.
 
Something as simple as this:
 

 
Would have raised her stock considerably. It's different from all her peers, plus it makes her stand out as her own character, not a xerox copy. In short, it's awesome and is bound to have fans wanting to know more about her.
 
* Before you ask, no, I did not "replace" the void of NaruSaku with NaruHina; that's what Tayuya is for. :)

It's not that she was completely desperate for him, it was just a spur of the moment thing, she was afraid for Naruto but as well of never get to reveal her feelings

'Bout the rest of your post , well turns out I completely agree with you, Sakura had to have something besides her romance plot line that would estabilish her as MC
I mean even if she began as an ordinary fangirl with the right development she could turn out to be someone extraordinary at the end

It's quite a shame that it looks like you're leaving, it's always nice to discuss different opinions as long as everything remains civil : D
And don't worry I doubt our discussion bugged someone, This forum has seen worse, believe me

Edited by Nar123, 13 May 2015 - 10:47 AM.

[Phantom_999]

Guys why there is a debate on whether Hinata is a stalker or not is beyond me. The fact remains is Hinata is a completely irrelevant character in Naruto's life and the series in general that we all question until we decided not to care anymore WHY and HOW they ever became husband and wife in the first place.especially since this series actually took the time to develop bonds between characters in the main story line. All I can say we are dealing with a man who wanted this short-haired kitten to have a kittening relationship sue with his favorite pet creation and and the white eyed money milking princess for whatever reasons he decided to half kittenly explain. Game- set- match

Edited by Phantom_999, 13 May 2015 - 04:19 AM.

[rocci]

Sakura has two conflict.
1. Romance
2. I feel useless aka just an ordinary (female) ninja.


What we got,
1. Romance badly resolve.
2. Drop.

Let's talk about sakura combat prowess because this is shonen manga and with sakura & chiyo vs sasori. Kishi cement her action girl.
While sakura is copy tsunade, for some reason kishi never develop her other potential name genjutsu. Kishi Doesn't give her fight outside sasori make people questioning her character. If only kishi give her 1 or 2 fight.

[Phantom_999]

The fact that that he created generation xerox copy and paste characters begin to already show lack of creativity wouldn't you think?

Edited by Phantom_999, 14 May 2015 - 12:32 AM.