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H&E's NaruSaku Debate Thread!


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#17701 Shadow1275

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 10:01 PM

QUOTE (Tsubaki @ Apr 20 2013, 10:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I was looking at some random Tumblr blogs and every single one of those blogs are NaruHina shippers shamefulcry0js.gif .. I wonder why NaruHina is so popular? it's like when everyone knows a secret that you don't then you just stay there without understanding what's going on... because I really can't understand all this popularity ... I missed something?! It's because I skipped almost all of Naruto fillers? what? arg.gif

The other thing is that If NS happens, then SS and NH can't happen. However, if NH happens, then SS looks more likely. Which is why SS fans tend to see things from the view of NH fans, or even support both SS and NH.

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#17702 KnS

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 10:20 PM

QUOTE (Tsubaki @ Apr 20 2013, 02:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I was looking at some random Tumblr blogs and every single one of those blogs are NaruHina shippers shamefulcry0js.gif .. I wonder why NaruHina is so popular? it's like when everyone knows a secret that you don't then you just stay there without understanding what's going on... because I really can't understand all this popularity ... I missed something?! It's because I skipped almost all of Naruto fillers? what? arg.gif

I don't get it either. I've always seen NH as a ship for Hinata fans, not Naruto fans -- that it's about wanting to see Hinata validated and her feelings returned more than wanting to see Naruto validated and his feelings returned.

I mean, the story is called Naruto, right? Not Hinata...?

I've never been able to understand how anyone can be a fan of Naruto (the character) and not want to see him get the girl he has always loved. In the girl department, Naruto has always been about Sakura. Always. It makes no sense to me -- literally none -- to ignore Naruto's heart and instead choose to hope / demand / expect he will give up on his feelings -- not only because he would have to settle for someone other than who he wants, but also because it would be so contrary to his nature.

Does not compute. argh1.png

QUOTE (StrikerTheNoble @ Apr 20 2013, 02:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Theres always exeptions. But generaly Hinata is a very relatable character. Especially in western countries.

Man, that's sure not true for me. I can't relate to Hinata in any way, and don't even consider her relatable to the fictional universe she inhabits.

And as for Hinata's popularity in the West, is it the influence of feminism that has so many in the West rallying around Hinata? Or is it something else? Interesting questions....

As for NH, I can't help but wonder if there's not a very different sort of psychology at work behind its popularity.



Edited by KnS, 20 April 2013 - 10:23 PM.


#17703 MistFlower

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 10:22 PM

QUOTE (Tsubaki @ Apr 20 2013, 09:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I was looking at some random Tumblr blogs and every single one of those blogs are NaruHina shippers shamefulcry0js.gif .. I wonder why NaruHina is so popular? it's like when everyone knows a secret that you don't then you just stay there without understanding what's going on... because I really can't understand all this popularity ... I missed something?! It's because I skipped almost all of Naruto fillers? what? arg.gif


This was already said in some other posts, but I feel that it is just the general liking of Hinata's character. Whether we like it or not, Sakura's initial perception was negative, because she was mean to the protagonist and she was semi-obsessive with Sasuke. And even though she went through superb growth, turning into one of my favorite characters in this series, initial perception apparently does not die. Also, the most liked female in the manga seems to be Hinata, so I guess people just want her to be happy and be with the guy she likes, thus supposedly making him happy in the process by recieving a girl that will treat him right. The fact of the matter is that many people don't seem to realize that Sakura is turning into, if she's not there already, someone who supports and loves Naruto unconditionally.

But I may be wrong. I'm not a Naruhina fan, so I can't say I know what they think. happy.gif

#17704 StrikerTheNoble

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 10:27 PM

Theres a new dialog corner:

Check it out

tumblr_nb92ixykOu1s7xenwo1_400.gif

OTP: NaruSaku; Favorite crack pairing: NaruIno

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#17705 Tokura Misaki

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 10:32 PM

QUOTE (KnS @ Apr 21 2013, 08:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't get it either. I've always seen NH as a ship for Hinata fans, not Naruto fans -- that it's about wanting to see Hinata validated and her feelings returned more than wanting to see Naruto validated and his feelings returned.

I mean, the story is called Naruto, right? Not Hinata...?


In other words, Naruto becomes a shoujo series. wot.gif

#17706 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 10:42 PM

QUOTE (sakutonaru @ Apr 20 2013, 06:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
In other words, Naruto becomes a shoujo series. wot.gif

Maybe that's why there's breaks. They're in a meeting to decide if Naruto should remain Shounen or go to shoujo along with changing the title to "Hinata".

#17707 sushi.

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 10:53 PM

QUOTE (NaruSaku4Life3g @ Apr 21 2013, 12:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Maybe that's why there's breaks. They're in a meeting to decide if Naruto should remain Shounen or go to shoujo along with changing the title to "Hinata".

Or Naruto breaks the cycle of clichè Shounen series. laugh.gif


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#17708 Inferno180

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 12:09 AM

QUOTE (KnS @ Apr 20 2013, 06:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't get it either. I've always seen NH as a ship for Hinata fans, not Naruto fans -- that it's about wanting to see Hinata validated and her feelings returned more than wanting to see Naruto validated and his feelings returned.

I mean, the story is called Naruto, right? Not Hinata...?

I've never been able to understand how anyone can be a fan of Naruto (the character) and not want to see him get the girl he has always loved. In the girl department, Naruto has always been about Sakura. Always. It makes no sense to me -- literally none -- to ignore Naruto's heart and instead choose to hope / demand / expect he will give up on his feelings -- not only because he would have to settle for someone other than who he wants, but also because it would be so contrary to his nature.

Does not compute. argh1.png


Man, that's sure not true for me. I can't relate to Hinata in any way, and don't even consider her relatable to the fictional universe she inhabits.

And as for Hinata's popularity in the West, is it the influence of feminism that has so many in the West rallying around Hinata? Or is it something else? Interesting questions....

As for NH, I can't help but wonder if there's not a very different sort of psychology at work behind its popularity.


Its not a matter of hating Hinata, its a matter of hating her fanbase and how they have this notion that she is so critically important to the story when she is not. Its easy to say it like this:

Guys and girls in western cultures think its obvious that all cultures are like theirs, mainly America. I live in America but I still stand by the notion that I live in a grand nation of idiots who still don't have a concept of the outside world, and I study geography, I cannot tell you how sad it is when there are people who don't know the difference between Austria and Australia.

Anyways back to Hinata, guys and girls find her easy to relate to because of the culture in the U.S., part of it could be sterotype romances here, the relation to other western romance media, feminism, etc its hard to say exactly but the basic notion is it just fits their perception regardless of the story, they like it because they enjoy it, there is nothing wrong with that but when there are those who want a pairing that can damage the story just for their own satisfaction, then that's the issue.

People who like Hinata may have done so but have little to no knowledge of the following:
-Difference between manga and anime
-fillers
-differences between western and eastern cultures
-ways of showing affection in different cultures
-the context of lines and dialogue
-character development
-character archtypes like tsunderes
-roles of characters (main like team 7, major like Shikamaru, Itachi, and Tsunade, minor like Kiba and Hinata)
-Difference between comedy and outright abuse.

Many fans do not understand this stuff and its just bad, they don't understand that Sakura is a Tsunadere type character, her hitting naruto is just comedy and yet they demonize her and don't have an issue on this with other anime such as lucy or erza smacking natsu, rukia smacking ichigo, or nami whacking luffy, zoro, or sanji etc. They blame one but not make an issue with the rest. They wonder why sakura is the center of attention and not Hinata, all the attention and hinata gets in fillers, technically it did not happen. Hinata is a minor character, I'm pretty sure she is not even in 100 chapters in a 600 plus manga series, even if she is, she is absent for the majority of part 1 and 2 with minimal roles.

Hinata's overall development can be like this, part 1 in the chunin exams is her only real big role still in any arc to date where she is a constantly reoccurring one, after getting steamrolled by neji and then seeing Naruto beat him, her importance in part 1 ends, no sudden importance for the remaining arcs. She is done in part 1 from this point on and just fades to the back line, anything else with her is just another minor appearance with not real development. In part 2 she suddenly reappears to see Naruto in the Sasuke and Sai arc yet its only for short term humor, no development. She joins up with the others much later in the itachi pursuit arc but that arc is centered around Sasuke and Itachi, Team 7 has a minor role in it yet they still get hardly any development, she has no development in this arc again, nothing gets her character driven further in this arc. Naruto and Sakura at least stepped up their goal to locate and bring Sasuke back only to meet failure a second time and grow on it more. Hinata did nothing. Then guess where we come to, steamrolled by pain, the biggest difference between here and the anime with her though is she gets battle time in the anime and gets inserted in many flashbacks but guess what, all those events with her are just again filler. All she did was speak, get smacked, and then 6 tails comes. Fans claimed Naruto was worried, yeah he was cause he was scared he would do to not only her but the whole village as he once hurt Sakura. It was his incident with Sakura that made him scared, not what happened to Hinata only. But again after all this, Hinata fades to the back, a 3rd time for a long while. Then we get the to the 4th ninja war. Yes this long arc was divided between so many people but even then Sakura still got more screentime in facing the 7 swordsmen for a short time and busting the white zetsu, this proved to at least move the story along a bit just to give more of a war role to Naruto at least. Hinata just comes in to get a short reminder from Naruto and we only see a small memory of the pain incident, nothing more. Then 615, people thought this would be the biggest thing ever, guess what it was a short speech, it ended, now we move forward.

NH can happen but it would just be bad considering the current state of things, basically the thing many NH fans have is, they try to make Hinata part of team 7 when she is not even important to the story. Kishi could have killed her off in pain and it still would not have changed much. Her role is expanded so much in the anime fillers, its sick. Fans tend to try to treat her like some goddess and hate Sakura calling her some demon b**** even though this demon saved their beloved goddess (and kayatsu would not have been able to, she was out of Tsunades chakra to heal others). It does not help that Perriot does some of this too, letting it get out of hand. As far as I am concerned Hinata is nothing more than romance fodder if NH comes up and a poster child. Perriot could make a poster of Hinata defecating on anything and fans would still buy it. facepalm.png

There are fans who forget this is an action series first, comedy/drama second, romance takes a backseat to all of this. They wonder why is it always Sakura Sakura, not Hinata? Sakura is the heroine, the story revolves around team 7 not team 7 plus Hinata. Its like they want to void so much of the story not realizing Sakura herself is part of some of Naruto's most major development points like Sasuke, Kakashi, Iruka, Jiriaya, Tsunade, Shikamaru, Bee, Nagato, etc. Hinata has done less than all of these others yet they try to assert her as something much stronger or important to the story. bash.gif

I like NaruSaku but I still watch it mainly for the action. Even then they act like NaruSaku is impossible never considering foreshadowing and the way things progressed, they just try to cut out Sakura's development which revolves around Naruto and Sasuke. Hinata only acnhors onto Naruto, without him she is not any character at all, even with him, she seems to only copy him. Yet with such "assuredness" in their pairing, they still feel they need to make a case out of RtN or the parallels. RtN is non-canon they should take conform in that, we only count it because it proves the parallel and pairing can work, we know its non-canon but things like this are still in character and can work in the future of the manga. They try to argue about the parallels when its been proven again and again they relate back to team 7 not Hinata in anyway shape or form. The Huyga are not even important to the eye of the moon plan as some speculated.

The main point is, they try to advocate or think Hinata is something more important than she really is. The story can continue without her, her death would not impact anything. There were times when Kishi could have used Hinata, given her better development, even with her 2 big moments, they were short and still severely limited. They had some quality but still no romance on Naruto's side. Even being underplayed twice. Making Hinata's development just get nitro boosted again and again is very weak and lazy writing. All that remains for her is simply just confronting Naruto and taking her place as clan head. In fact her better developed ending as I see it would be her being happy for Naruto, Naruto could even confront her on the confession and still tell her he thinks she is good but he does not feel the same about her. The worst part about NaruHina is that if Naruto goes for her, it would literally be him downplaying himself and settling for her out of a mere second place choice. This is the biggest flaw and makes so much of the story f'd up on a character design point for Naruto and Sakura, it reduces Hinata's overall role as a character. Many say Sakura going to Naruto would be out of a second place incident, not it would not. Naruto has a reason and seeks validation in himself to be worthy of Sakura, he is not taking advantage of Sasuke's abstance, he would only go to Sakura if he completed his promise or if Sakura came to him on her own. Naruto respects her to let her make her choice not because he wants it, because she would want it. Naruto respects her happiness and if that happiness is him, then he would accept it if she came to him. Some fans even made an issue of why has he not moved over to Hinata after the confession, its simple, the goal is Sasuke. Sakura takes a backseat to this, Naruto wants Sasuke so he can be accepting of himself to be hokage. No Sasuke means no hokage which means no sakura confessing to. He cannot just jump over these 2 to reach Hinata. Fans think this can just happen and don't realize the damage it would bring to the story. Even with Sakura's confession, Naruto giving up would just bring so much more chaos in the story design is he did not forgive or got over her, it would make NH even worse by all accounts. These fans don't even consider these factors and just take things word for word without considering context or story/character design, logic, pacing, consistency, etc. It would be bonkers to consider Naruto does not forgive Sakura or is over her when Sai told him the reasons even taking partial blame and yet he can forgive some who did really bad deeds like Nagato and Kurama like it was nothing. this type of logic is just insane to imagine in the story. wallbash.gif

I can never understand how such a simple role for a minor character can be twisted into something so distorted and insane, it makes me want to pull my hair out. Case in point, they merely want their pairing to be canon with no regard to the story, think that their larger numbers should have some meaning of entitlement, or to just plain not agree with them means you are a heretic. Its what greatly shames me because Hinata is a good character in her own right, she just has an overblown preception of a legion of crazies who think she is something she is not. They basically want this series to go fanfic and we hope kishi does not do this. Worst they don't even consider or know Sakuras character, they don't even think where she can go or become, they just white her out.

NaruSaku exists in the story, it is intertwined with it, not NH. NH can happen but it would just be very very bad. Kishi could have done more with Hinata but in most of the story and downtime for other development, he chose Naruto with Sakura, not Hinata. Hinata has been sidelined so much making few appearances over the years, that is just not good on her character and practically what makes other fans tired of her. We dont hate hinata, we hate the delusional part of her fanbase. I still cannot get over how there are people who argued on RtN being a NaruHina movie and doing nothing with NaruSaku and yet they still try to justify Hinata fitting Kushina.

This type of logic makes me want to do this:

Insane fans---> msmack.gif

When people insult my OTP



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#17709 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 12:17 AM

Wow. That post is...wow. Awesome! biggrin.gif

QUOTE (StrikerTheNoble @ Apr 20 2013, 06:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Theres a new dialog corner:

Check it out

Awesome! We are on a roll!

QUOTE (sushi. @ Apr 20 2013, 06:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Or Naruto breaks the cycle of clichè Shounen series. laugh.gif

Or break the level of asspull in Shounen history. Kubo who?

#17710 sushi.

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 12:40 AM

What I think is foolish is that some NH fans believe NS fans believe in their pairing mainly because of the genre, and reply with "just because it's a shounen series does not mean the two main characters have to end up together." Because I agree XD.jpg Honestly so far I've only seen one NS fan use that as his primary argument.

Edited by sushi., 21 April 2013 - 12:45 AM.

ナルサク


#17711 StrawHatNaruto

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 12:57 AM

Just had an idea.. Wouldn't it be great if Minato arrived and addressed Sakura with -chan. It would go like:

Naruto: Dad.. Thanks for everything, I'll definitely surpass you one day.
Minato: Thats right! Your my son after all. Well Naruto.. Sakura-chan.. This is goodbye.. (I swear they look just like Kushina and I when we were young)
Sakura: !! (Sakura-chan.. Just like Naruto) *smiles

#17712 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 01:12 AM

QUOTE (StrawHatNaruto @ Apr 20 2013, 08:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just had an idea.. Wouldn't it be great if Minato arrived and addressed Sakura with -chan. It would go like:

Naruto: Dad.. Thanks for everything, I'll definitely surpass you one day.
Minato: Thats right! Your my son after all. Well Naruto.. Sakura-chan.. This is goodbye.. (I swear they look just like Kushina and I when we were young)
Sakura: !! (Sakura-chan.. Just like Naruto) *smiles

You know, you make me wonder one thing: what does Minato call Kushina? Kushina, Kushina-chan, or what?

#17713 sushi.

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 01:22 AM

QUOTE (NaruSaku4Life3g @ Apr 21 2013, 03:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You know, you make me wonder one thing: what does Minato call Kushina? Kushina, Kushina-chan, or what?

Probably Kushina. During the flashbacks that was what he called her, but maybe because that was serious times. Who knows what they're calling eachother during..moments laugh.gif

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#17714 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 01:24 AM

QUOTE (sushi. @ Apr 20 2013, 09:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Probably Kushina. During the flashbacks that was what he called her, but maybe because that was serious times. Who knows what they're calling eachother during..moments laugh.gif

I was under impression that I never hear Minato say her name. Lol. My memory doesn't serve well aside the saddest moment.

#17715 sushi.

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 01:27 AM

QUOTE (NaruSaku4Life3g @ Apr 21 2013, 03:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I was under impression that I never hear Minato say her name. Lol. My memory doesn't serve well aside the saddest moment.

You know during sad or moments with lives in danger, when the characters just say someone's name? Like.. "Kushina..."

It's one line lol, I remember Minato saying that. When he held her bridal style the second time, and also when he commented on her pain during Naruto's birth.

ナルサク


#17716 StrawHatNaruto

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 01:30 AM

QUOTE (NaruSaku4Life3g @ Apr 20 2013, 08:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You know, you make me wonder one thing: what does Minato call Kushina? Kushina, Kushina-chan, or what?

I'm pretty sure Kushina calledl Minato without a -kun or any suffix. But I think Minato would say -chan, personal preference. But maybe I can find out when I watch RTN.

#17717 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 01:31 AM

QUOTE (sushi. @ Apr 20 2013, 09:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You know during sad or moments with lives in danger, when the characters just say someone's name? Like.. "Kushina..."

It's one line lol, I remember Minato saying that. When he held her bridal style the second time, and also when he commented on her pain during Naruto's birth.

Same thing from Kushina to Minato, right? Like Kushina called him Minato?

#17718 sushi.

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 01:34 AM

QUOTE (NaruSaku4Life3g @ Apr 21 2013, 03:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Same thing from Kushina to Minato, right? Like Kushina called him Minato?

Yep, I remember during their argument(about making Naruto a jinchuuriki) she referred to him as Minato, and when she talked to Naruto.

I've used the word during like 10 times lol XD

Edited by sushi., 21 April 2013 - 01:34 AM.

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#17719 TouKen4Life3g

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 01:38 AM

QUOTE (StrawHatNaruto @ Apr 20 2013, 09:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm pretty sure Kushina called Minato without a -kun or any suffix. But I think Minato would say -chan, personal preference. But maybe I can find out when I watch RTN.

Got ya. Thanks. Oh if you don't know anything about the movie, get ready. biggrin.gif

QUOTE (sushi. @ Apr 20 2013, 09:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yep, I remember during their argument(about making Naruto a jinchuuriki) she referred to him as Minato, and when she talked to Naruto.

I've used the word during like 10 times lol XD

Oh yeah. Lol. Thanks. Naruto is still the only man to use -chan. How cute. happy.gif

#17720 KnS

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 02:48 AM

QUOTE (Inferno180 @ Apr 20 2013, 05:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Guys and girls in western cultures think its obvious that all cultures are like theirs, mainly America. I live in America but I still stand by the notion that I live in a grand nation of idiots who still don't have a concept of the outside world, and I study geography, I cannot tell you how sad it is when there are people who don't know the difference between Austria and Australia.

I understand your feelings, and it's true that Americans are statistically quite poor at geography. But I cringe at "nation of idiots." For some, especially young people, it's a matter of exposure and experience -- not idiocy. Likewise, there are many Americans who do know their geography, who do understand that not all cultures are the same, and who realize that our culture is not at the center of the universe. wink.gif

I'm not trying to get points for patriotism or anything, but I can't say I agree we're a nation of idiots. We have our fair share, sure, but so does every nation.


QUOTE (Inferno180 @ Apr 20 2013, 05:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Anyways back to Hinata, guys and girls find her easy to relate to because of the culture in the U.S., part of it could be sterotype romances here, the relation to other western romance media, feminism, etc its hard to say exactly but the basic notion is it just fits their perception regardless of the story, they like it because they enjoy it, there is nothing wrong with that but when there are those who want a pairing that can damage the story just for their own satisfaction, then that's the issue.

Culture may very well be a component in the case of Naruto. But in terms of the bolded, the same phenomenon happens with westerners (at least) when it comes to pairings in entirely western stories -- where theoretically no lack of cultural understanding is present.

Equivalent western media examples of fans choosing a pairing that doesn't reflect or fit a story's foreshadowing include Harry/Hermione and Remus/Sirius from Harry Potter, and Bella/Jacob from Twilight. The pairing wars in the Hunger Games fandom is another example, but it would be a spoiler for people who have only seen the first movie and not read the books, so I'll leave that one out.

Point being, there seems to be a desire on the part of some fans to choose the underdog or unlikely pairing and hang on to the bitter end. I can understand exploring unlikely pairings in fan fiction, or maybe even wishing the author would take things in the direction they prefer. But to ignore what is staring them in the face while making an incredible amount of noise about it... that's something else entirely.

And to be fair, Kishimoto has toyed with his pairing fans (certainly more than JK Rowling and Suzanne Collins did), but all it takes is a cursory review of the manga to see that the amount of NS development, hints, and moments outnumbers SS and NH combined.

So no, I honestly don't understand how some fans arrive at their viewpoint, but it happens over and over in different fandoms.


QUOTE (Inferno180 @ Apr 20 2013, 05:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hinata has done less than all of these others yet they try to assert her as something much stronger or important to the story.

I know. Like I said, I can understand if it was fan fiction centered on Hinata, but to view canon in a way that seems (to me, at least) so tunnel-visioned -- and contrary to statements made by the author -- is a mystery to me.







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