54216 replies to this topic

[TyranntX]

Correction: Konoha high school doujinshi by Damleg.

A lot of fans started from that one first, I'm not joking.

wow, it spawned from something fan made? ... now I KNOW NS will go canon

[MistFlower]

 

The optimism part was my goal.  Sakura is really cool, and if we don't love her and celebrate her achievements, who will?  

 

It actually makes me sad that such a great character is so unpopular among the fandom.  Every reason I've seen makes no sense or stems from a personal issue.  I just don't get it.  I love Sakura (:

[MangaReader]

It actually makes me sad that such a great character is so unpopular among the fandom.  Every reason I've seen makes no sense or stems from a personal issue.  I just don't get it.  I love Sakura (:

It only the Western fandom though... Which is still puzzling given Rukia's and Nami's popularity. Heck Bulma seemed to be popular in DB from my memory. I know Misty was and still is popular in Pokemon (which could only take Tsundere so far for a kids show). Something about Naruto makes people forget Sakura is just the same as any of those characters

[rocci]

It actually makes me sad that such a great character is so unpopular among the fandom.  Every reason I've seen makes no sense or stems from a personal issue.  I just don't get it.  I love Sakura (:

according to wiki, seiya always place in the fifth popular character.

seiya is the main, title, and lead character of saint seiya manga.

so I don't have many issue with the popularity of some character.

 

@lady gt

hmm I thought the chunin exam has something to do with nh & ss. but thanks

[Gojira]

so basically NS is the most popular in Japan but that's about it.....I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

[MoonDrop04]

Hey quick question O_o is there really a break next week for naruto chapter 675???

[ramenanmitsu]

To KnS

 

What an excellent post! Thanks for your time and effort to write a very long, detailed post. 

 

Wall-of-Text-no-jutsu! 

Click to Read

Yeah, I don't know.  It's kind of strange, really.  I do feel that female characters are often held to a higher, and often harsher, standard than males -- and often by female readers. The aspect that bothers me the most is the tendency to criticize any female character who becomes involved in a romance, or if romantic feelings are any part of her storyline.  As if having romantic feelings makes a girl any less of a heroine, or that loving someone and dedicating a certain amount of energy cycles to having a relationship with him means that's all she's about.  Naruto loves Sakura and he has expended energy cycles in the hopes of having a relationship with her, but he doesn't get denigrated as being "pairing fodder" -- nor are sweeping generalizations made that romance or his feelings for Sakura are all he's about.  It doesn't make Naruto seem weaker to most fans.  (Although I know there are some really hateful types out there who think Naruto is a pansy for his softer side, while Sasuke is celebrated as "cool." Yuck.)Through my experience in other fandoms, I have a low tolerance for attacks (especially by "feminists") who shred good, solid female characters for having a domestic side, or for undertaking motherhood, or for not being a flame-breathing ballbuster, or for having romantic feelings -- even if they don't completely define her.  It's as if being female and expressing the characteristics and capabilities of the sex is to be avoided if you want to be taken seriously.  SMH In the case of Naruto, Kishimoto might not be the best at writing women but I feel he has made an effort to represent the spectrum of female experience fairly well.  For example:  Kurenai, a competent kunoichi and sensei who was temporarily sidelined by motherhood; Mikoto, who has been shown as a mother and housewife only; Kushina, who was a jinchuuriki, formidable kunoichi, and wife of a Kage who also was temporarily sidelined by motherhood; Tsunade, who had a love life but no children, who had what might be considered masculine flaws (drinking and gambling) but who is powerful with an ultimately successful career; Hinata, who is weak and timid and mostly defined by her preoccupation with Naruto and her feelings for him.Then there's Sakura. Yes, romance is a part of her story, but it's unavoidable because she is the object of the hero's affection.  And while her feelings for Sasuke are part of her development from shallow, inexperienced girl to wise, thoughtful woman, they also serve as a simple contrivance to keep her and Naruto apart until the end.  Winning her love is another action item on Naruto's list of heroic deeds.

 

I agree wholeheartedly here. 

 

However, categorizing Sakura as nothing more than pairing fodder, and suggesting that her purpose in the story is just to fill that role, is to ignore the truth about the way Kishimoto has painstakingly characterized her and everything she's done. It's kind of a ridiculous notion when you think about the big picture.  Sakura has been dedicated to Naruto because she is his teammate, because she is a well-trained ninja with superior skills and bravery, and because she believes in his vision; even her "confession of love" to Naruto was about saving his life and trying to do the right thing for Konoha and the alliance.

 

As far as Sakura's own motivation has been concerned, it has never been about romance with Naruto. That's the point.  That's the whole reason why the pairing issues have been so confounding.  Sakura hasn't been in love with Naruto, or at least hasn't yet realized it fully.  

 

Her personal accomplishments throughout the story have nothing to do with her romantic feelings for Naruto OR Sasuke.  They are not the reason she became Tsunade's apprentice or trained so diligently to be an excellent medic.  She may have used their growing strength and capabilities as inspiration to prove herself equal, but that's not rooted in romance.

 

In contrast, that's why Hinata is so frustrating.  She never puts her thoughts of Naruto aside.  She is apparently incapable of being about more than her obsessive feelings.  Sakura has way too much to do -- she has way too many demands and expectations placed upon her to be able to sit in a pool of romantic fantasy and spoon it over herself.  Romance -- with Sasuke or Naruto -- takes an obvious back seat to Sakura's responsibilities. 

 

In my view it is unfair and just plain insulting to negate Sakura's actions and accomplishments as an individual because she happens to play a part in the hero's love life and have feelings of her own.

Actually, I'm one of the few people out there who thinks that Kishi is portraying Sakura the way she is because she is meant to be Naruto's wife. But then again, my interpretation of a pairing fodder and a wife are quite different. (I explained this in the chapter thread several times before.)

 

Hinata is a pairing fodder because her character is revolving around the guy she's obsessed with and has taken many actions to appeal herself or satisfy her obsessions, regardless of it being good or bad (Chuunin Exam Cheating, Cheering Naruto up before his fight with Neji, Suicide Confession, Neji's death). 

 

Sakura goes beyond a pairing fodder because her character revolves WITH the guy and has a partnership with him. She takes many actions that supports and blends together with the guy's goals and dreams because she shares them too, whether the guy may realize her actions or not doesn't matter for her.

 

The reason why I call her a wife is solely based on the stereotypical ideal wives I see in Japanese Culture (especially that of successful men or leaders that are featured on variety programs, documentary, TV's and novels). The wife shares the same goal with the husband and takes actions towards it with a more softer approach while he takes the hard approach, she doesn't stand out because it's supposed to be the husband who is charismatic and leader-like, she speaks on behalf of her husband and his ideas when other people don't get it, she acts strong when the husband is depressed and never show her fear(even though she is scared too) and she is the shadow supporter of him. This is probably different compared to the Western Married Couples where the husband and wife are individuals walking on their own, and they share their own goals only when it comes to private things-family, kids, house, and etc.. (Although, I do see some exceptions such as Michelle Obama.)

 

I don't know if I was able to explain it well. Explaining Japanese culture is really difficult for me. 

 

Anyways, Sakura's role is very unique. You can't gain this role just by having a strong bond with the main character. The nature of the bond matters as well, in this case the bond has an "intimate" nature. 

 

Not even Sasuke could speak on behalf of Naruto to the alliance and motivate people, not even Shikamaru can analyze Naruto's feelings to the most smallest details, and if they did I would puke from the unbearably unnatural bromance for sure. 

 

This can't be explained just because Sakura is the girl of the team either. I can't see Ino or Hinata being able to do the same thing for Shikamaru/Kiba. 

 

This is why I say Kishi has made Sakura to fit in the role of Naruto's wife. She has continuously taken actions that only a person who has a strong and intimate bond with the main character can do. Not to mention, it fits the Japanese ideal stereotypical wife. I can't help but feel that Kishi is trying to let us understand that Sakura is the one for Naruto. Whether this "wife" is bad or good depends on the readers. 

 

Personally, I find this way of Japanese thinking old and believe that females should not limit her goal to her husband's, but maybe that's just me.

 

No, that's the same interview I was talking about.  I have always understood that during that interview someone asked Kishimoto if Hinata was not a better heroine, and he said, "Everybody says Hinata, Hinata, but Sakura is not Hinata." And then he went on to say that while Hinata might be acting more like a heroine at that point, Sakura was the heroine and that he would be writing her more that way in the future.  Or something similar to that.

 

I can't read Japanese, and therefore I am a victim of whatever translations I can find.  I make every effort to understand what he actually says, but I can never be sure.  If I have mistakenly approximated Kishimoto's response, my apologies to all. I've probably looked up that quote a dozen times, hoping to get it right.

 

Sorry, I'm not trying to accuse you or anything. I've just never heard him say it that way before. Even though I'm Japanese, I can't be sure if my understanding of what Kishi said in an interview is correct because the source itself might be incorrect. Oh well, guess we'd never know. 

 

You bring up very good points, and I don't disagree with you.  Consistency and continuity of a story and characterizations do depend on how a reader perceives them.  And for the record, I am truly not trying to say that my perceptions are correct and those of others are incorrect.  

 

I am merely trying to point out that oftentimes disappointment with a story and its author comes from a reader's expectations that are formed on perceptions that have not evolved or that were incorrect from the start, or that a reader has not tested through the exercise of objective critique.  I'll try to explain what I mean.

 

First, I'll attempt to summarize your comments.

 

Sakura's characterization is a disappointing because:

 

1. Sakura stated many times that (a) "she will protect her teammates" and (b) "bring her team back together." 

 

2. At the first Team 7 reunion, Sakura concluded that, "There is nothing I can do but have faith in them." Such a statement and attitude was a contradiction to her characterization and previous statements to that point, and the purpose of her character "went down the drain."

 

3. After the VotE, Sakura said she was going to train and that she and Naruto would bring back Sasuke, "together."

 

4. Only recently, through the Sage, was it made clear that the conflict ultimately exists between the two boys due to reincarnation, etc., and Sakura is excluded from the resolution.

 

5. Readers now feel forced to change their view of Sakura with no warning beforehand. 

 

#1, #2, and #3 are similar so I'm going to combine my response to them.  First of all, yes, Sakura did say all those things and those thoughts were a clear part of her motivation.  But Kishimoto has shown us that Sakura has not remained static.  With each experience he shows us that she is learning, growing, and evolving.  That means her thoughts, feelings, motivations, and choices are evolving too. 

 

Perhaps at one point "protect her teammates" meant only Naruto and Sasuke, but is it reasonable to assume that Kishimoto has intended for her loyalty and dedication to remain restricted to that definition?  Especially when Naruto's hasn't?  And Sasuke's obviously hasn't?  All three characters have broadened their understanding and commitment to their goals for the world around them, far beyond their genin days when their immediate team was everything.

 

Is it not possible that the Sakura who took down Pain's summon by herself, who organized the hospital and triage, and healed the wounded -- while her teammate, Naruto, was on the front line battling Pain -- had, along with Naruto, expanded her "team" commitment to all of Konoha who were fighting and suffering with them? 

 

Has Sakura not been the one to mentally commit herself -- and everyone else -- to supporting Naruto's fight and to help him carry the burden of responsibility during the current war?  Has Sakura not been the one to rally the soldiers with an impassioned speech on Naruto's behalf -- while she was healing him, no less?  Was that not an act of "bringing her team back together"?

 

To say Sakura's characterization is a disappointment because she is no longer restricted to her former Team 7 concerns and motivations is to deny her growth.  It is to want her character to remain consistent with old statements and expectations, rather than acknowledge that she is being consistent to her core personality and the demands of her role as a leader of the new generation.

 

Looking at it from Kishimoto's point of view, would leaving Sakura behind in terms of maturity and comprehension of her circumstances have been consistent with her character -- when he has been showing us all along that Sakura is very intelligent and that she thinks about her shortcomings, her responsibilities, and her role in the bigger picture?

 

Actually, that is a very good point. 

 

I wouldn't have minded if Sakura's commitment has grown wider. From team 7 to team 7 + village + shinobi alliance. I guess one thing that unnerves me is that what drives her character hasn't become wider, it just shifted. 

 

I'll explain it in my post below. 

For all three of them, Team 7's world is now much bigger than Team 7.  Even if it wasn't, Sasuke has consistently resisted being a part of it.  He wants nothing to do with Naruto and Sakura's way of life.  How could Sakura possibly "protect her teammates" and "bring her team back together" when Sasuke wants none of it?

 

Isn't this what Naruto is still doing right now though? He himself declared, "How can I become Hokage if I can't even save a friend." Right now we have war, so he can't do ONLY that, but his words still have an on-going effect doesn't it? How come this isn't the case for Sakura? 

 

In fact she tried that, even when Naruto said he still wanted to save Sasuke for himself.  Sakura tried to protect Naruto from Sasuke and Sasuke from himself by setting out to kill Sasuke, and it was a miserable failure.  But through Naruto's steadfast commitment and willingness to face whatever was necessary to help Sasuke find peace, Sakura realized that her attitude and approach had been wrong.  She realized that she couldn't "protect her teammates" directly, and that the best hope to "bring her team back together" was to have faith that they would ultimately settle their differences.

 

Are you alright with this? 

 

When Naruto tries hard but ends up getting a bad result, he gets back up, tries harder, and overcomes it. (When Naruto found out that he was nowhere near Sasuke's level at the Sound base, he trained to become stronger). On the contrary, when Sakura tries hard but ends up not being able to get a satisfying result, she quits going further and relies it on Naruto. 

 

How can this be considered a character development? 

 

If Sakura is going to give up on something she started because she isn't "strong enough" or "smart enough" or  "(insert word here) enough", she might as well not have tried at all and made sandwiches for Naruto in the kitchen, making herself useful by providing him vitamins and minerals to bring Sasuke back. 

 

From that point on, Sakura has thrown herself in with Naruto wholeheartedly.  She found out the hard way that trying to engineer things on her own -- things that Naruto didn't want and went against his nindo -- only fractured her old team further.  Now she and Naruto are united.  Kishimoto has consistently shown us this through Sakura's words and actions.

 

The more she tries, the more worse the outcome is, right? Now that she can't handle Sasuke or her original team she leaves it to Naruto, and now her focus has turned towards what she can handle, the village and the shinobi alliance. This is not development(in my opinion). 

 

It would have been development, if her focus has widened from team 7 to team 7 AND the village, shinobi alliance. Right now, she can't "protect her teammates" so she is protecting something else, she can't "bring her team back together" so she is fighting for the alliance. 

 

As for #4, although at this point it does seem that Naruto and Sasuke will battle Madara together as two the halves of the Sage's legacy, excluding Sakura, that does not mean that Sakura won't be instrumental in what is likely to be the final battle -- the one between Naruto and Sasuke.

 

Again, looking at it from Kishimoto's perspective and what he's set up, we have known for AGES that Naruto and Sasuke represented the sons of the Sage.  The reincarnation thing just cemented the hows and whys of it.  Is it inconsistent that Sakura is not part of a centuries-old rivalry between two brothers?  Especially when the conflict existed long before Team 7, and has nothing to do with Sakura's personal goals?

 

A considered critique would take into account that there are two sets of issues at play, and that Sakura is intimately involved in one but not the other.  While she may have no direct part in the "brothers" joining forces to bring peace to the world, we must wait to see what role Sakura plays in the final resolution between Naruto and Sasuke as friends and members of Team 7.

 

That is true. I should wait what role she will be playing. 

 

As for #5, I think perhaps that is the biggest issue.  Readers may feel that they have been "forced to change their view of Sakura with no warning beforehand," but is that because there was truly no warning?  Or because readers had formed specific expectations of what Sakura's role was going to be, and for whatever reason were unable to incorporate the evolution of Sakura's character along the way or realize that evolution would mean changes in the way her role played out? 

 

To make a long reply longer that it needs to be....

 

My point is that a considered critique should be willing to look at Kishimoto's characterizations objectively, and from his perspective as much as possible.  Kishimoto considers Sakura to be the heroine.  Has he written her as a heroine?  Have her heroic actions been consistent with her characterization and the expressed purpose of her role even if they were transformed by experiences along the way?

 

What prompted my original post was a reaction to general sentiments such as "Sakura is diminished because she's not going to get to do this or that" and "Kishimoto has screwed up because Sakura isn't a big enough part of the action" and the like.  

 

Kishimoto never said or made it obvious exactly how Sakura's role would play out.  To be totally disappointed and believe he has failed because Sakura isn't doing what they expected is more about their expectations than his choices.  

 

It's is the reader's responsibility to figure out if their expectations really went off the rails.  After all, Kishimoto has been uneven and more than a bit dodgy with his characterization of Sasuke, so maybe he's just a hack.  But the difference -- in my opinion, at least -- is that both Naruto and Sakura's characterizations pass the acid test of objective critique while Sasuke's characterization really doesn't.

 

I really don't know KnS. With the way Kishi is writing, I feel like he is going left and right, creating convenient stories out of nowhere to cover up his previous inconsistencies, that I can't really fault it to just reader's lack of reading comprehension. 

 

Few examples: 

1. Hagoromo having a brother. 

2. Karin meeting Sasuke at the Chuunin Exams.

3. Curse Seal=Sage Mode.

4. Medics not allowed to fight unless they have Byakugo.

This is only to mention a few. 

 

I'm not trying to force my opinions or anything. It would be great if I could really think the same way as you. But it's really hard to convince myself that this is really the road Kishi was aiming to show us all along. 

 

 

Omg, this turned out to be so long. Sorry, I hope this won't be torturous. 

[Gojira]

Hey quick question O_o is there really a break next week for naruto chapter 675???

judging from the kishi cliffhanger...yes

could be worse it could be like Hunter X Hunter and you'd have to wait 2-3 years

[MoonDrop04]

judging from the kishi cliffhanger...yes

could be worse it could be like Hunter X Hunter and you'd have to wait 2-3 years

But it didn't say it was going on break at the end of the chapter so where did people start hearing this from??

[Gojira]

But it didn't say it was going on break at the end of the chapter so where did people start hearing this from??

No clue you'll have to ask somebody here who actually knows

my guess is it has something to do with Kishi taking a break right after a volume has been finished.

[TouKen4Life3g]

I'm back!

[咲耶姫]

No clue you'll have to ask somebody here who actually knows

my guess is it has something to do with Kishi taking a break right after a volume has been finished.

Kishi doesn't take a break after having finished a volume. 

Edited by 咲耶姫, 23 April 2014 - 07:42 AM.

[MoonDrop04]

Kishi doesn't take a break after having finished a volume. 

WOOHOO!!! HALLELUJAH!!!!! XD

[咲耶姫]

WOOHOO!!! HALLELUJAH!!!!! XD

I'm not saying there is no break this week, I just say he doesn't have the habit of doing a break at each volume ending. 

Edited by 咲耶姫, 23 April 2014 - 07:58 AM.

[MoonDrop04]

I'm not saying there is no break this week, I just say he doesn't have the habit of doing a break at each volume ending. 

I'll take what I can get XD lol cause that cliffhanger from the Ch.674 makes me want to see more!!!

[Hanabi]

I heard it's golden week (3-4 holidays in 1 week) that's why people were saying shounen jump mangakas will have a break

[MoonDrop04]

I heard it's golden week (3-4 holidays in 1 week) that's why people were saying shounen jump mangakas will have a break

Really?? I thought golden week would happen during the summer though O_o...

[Hanabi]

Really?? I thought golden week would happen during the summer though O_o...

not very sure abt that  i just heard from somewhere..

[James S Cassidy]

Which is somewhat still confusing to me.

Even if Kishi did confirm that Sakura loves Naruto and that she's aware of it, there are things like 540 that make it confusing (holy crap I cannot believe I'm bring this chapter up yet again even I'm getting sick of hearing myself talk about it) or Karin's statement that she could tell Sakura loves Sasuke just by looking at him. Though I recall sometime ago James that a while back you quoted an interview where Kishi says Sakura loves (current tense) or loved (past tense) Sasuke I forget which can someone send me a link to this interview? (if not that's fine)

Even if Kishi's writing is meant to be confusing to the audience like I hear some people here say its just...unnecessary and throws the readers in uneeded loops of debates when you already have moments like 631, 663 and apparently the honest confession which pretty much ensures that NS is endgame at this point.

It's the way writers are.

I am always thinking of Love Hina and that ending.
 

Love Hina spoilers

ending

Throughout the entire manga, which is about 14 volumes, you knew that Keitaro and Naru were going to be together. In fact, it pretty much was guaranteed like half-way through. I know for even myself I am screaming at the characters "Hurry up already." Even sometimes the other characters are like "What the hell? Why are you being so stubborn?" For this case, it was Naru who was being stubborn. Keitaro was trying to win her over the whole time and Naru kept being in denial while everyone else was trying to get them together. Even going so bad that some of the other girls started to fall in love with Keitaro and were like "Well, if Naru doesn't want him, then I'll take him for myself." It got pretty brutal in the end, but eventually the couple became canon officially.

It is also very similar to InuYasha and Ruroni Kenshin which again it was the same way. They just couldn't admit that they were in love even when it was painfully obvious to everyone and themselves. They just refused to see it for one reason or another and at times just kept making excuses. Tsundere have a tendency to do this more often than not.

It is nerve racking, but it happens.

This is the interview:
http://narutoxsakura...rview-334624389

I am having a hard time finding the original original, but I know it exists somewhere.

Also, Sasuke still has shown no interest in Sakura meanwhile Sakura has shown interest in Naruto. I know people keep saying SS can happen, but until Sasuke shows even a hint to having feelings for her, then it cannot happen ever. Relationships are built around love and affection to which Sasuke has none for Sakura.

 

Edited by James S Cassidy, 23 April 2014 - 10:59 AM.

[TyranntX]

It's the way writers are.

I am always thinking of Love Hina and that ending.
 

Love Hina spoilers

ending

Throughout the entire manga, which is about 14 volumes, you knew that Keitaro and Naru were going to be together. In fact, it pretty much was guaranteed like half-way through. I know for even myself I am screaming at the characters "Hurry up already." Even sometimes the other characters are like "What the hell? Why are you being so stubborn?" For this case, it was Naru who was being stubborn. Keitaro was trying to win her over the whole time and Naru kept being in denial while everyone else was trying to get them together. Even going so bad that some of the other girls started to fall in love with Keitaro and were like "Well, if Naru doesn't want him, then I'll take him for myself." It got pretty brutal in the end, but eventually the couple became canon officially.

It is also very similar to InuYasha and Ruroni Kenshin which again it was the same way. They just couldn't admit that they were in love even when it was painfully obvious to everyone and themselves. They just refused to see it for one reason or another and at times just kept making excuses. Tsundere have a tendency to do this more often than not.

It is nerve racking, but it happens.

This is the interview:
http://narutoxsakura...rview-334624389

I am having a hard time finding the original original, but I know it exists somewhere.

Also, Sasuke still has shown no interest in Sakura meanwhile Sakura has shown interest in Naruto. I know people keep saying SS can happen, but until Sasuke shows even a hint to having feelings for her, then it cannot happen ever. Relationships are built around love and affection to which Sasuke has none for Sakura.

 

 

Yeah some how I don't think the NH fans are going to buy that.