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The Great NaruSaku Debate Thread!


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#1601 RyrineaHaruno

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Posted 20 July 2009 - 09:26 PM

QUOTE (Daniee @ Jul 20 2009, 04:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Okay, this is a little random... but I was just skimming through the Die For Our Ship page on TV Tropes, and where they talk about Naruto, somebody put this:


...Anyone else as confused as I am? mellow.gif

Yeah, I am confused here too. You should edit that and the Hinata Hyuga one to. We do not bash Hinata to no end and bash everyone else in the process. I mean serouilly we keep everyone in character unless it's is a Hinata hater of course.

Edited by RyrineaHaruno, 20 July 2009 - 09:31 PM.


#1602 Freakazoid

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Posted 20 July 2009 - 09:33 PM

QUOTE (Daniee @ Jul 20 2009, 01:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Okay, this is a little random... but I was just skimming through the Die For Our Ship page on TV Tropes, and where they talk about Naruto, somebody put this:


...Anyone else as confused as I am? mellow.gif


I can only assume that comes from different fanfictions. Alot of them(majority not even NaruSaku tbh) make Sakura's mom out to be a complete anti Naruto devil. I try to avoid storys like that, it's hard sometimes though. Other then that no NaruSaku fan that I know of has ever used Sakura's mom for an argument of any kind.

#1603 RyrineaHaruno

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Posted 20 July 2009 - 09:46 PM

QUOTE (Freakazoid @ Jul 20 2009, 04:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I can only assume that comes from different fanfictions. Alot of them(majority not even NaruSaku tbh) make Sakura's mom out to be a complete anti Naruto devil. I try to avoid storys like that, it's hard sometimes though. Other then that no NaruSaku fan that I know of has ever used Sakura's mom for an argument of any kind.

Yeah, not every fic has Sakura mom out to be some short of Naruto hater. I try too also stay away from story like that. I mean serouilly it's totally weird they do that. Really, I don't use the argument at all either.

Edited by RyrineaHaruno, 21 July 2009 - 03:08 PM.


#1604 Nee-sama

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Posted 20 July 2009 - 11:08 PM

It must be some lame argument like "Sakura is such a control freak that she must have picked up her behavior from her mother." I don't know, that doesn't sound very narusakuish, though.

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#1605 TwilightLink20xx

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Posted 21 July 2009 - 12:04 AM

Yeah.. Not getting that at all. It should probably be dumped, it doesn't seem to be a valid argument, and if it is, it's too old to be usefull.

#1606 catsi563

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Posted 21 July 2009 - 12:49 AM

Its not a valid argument as there is no manga precedence to support it.

The idea as I've seen it came from fan fiction mostly due to the need for authors to explain away Sakura's behavior as a child towards Naruto. They usually lump Sakura's parents into the he's a demon category and then explain that Sakura imitated her parents like the rest of the children.

This is usually wrong. since it is well established that Sakura herself explained --to Naruto himself ironically-- that what annoyed her about Naruto was that he didnt understand her and liked to see her fail as well as always interfering with her romantic life.

that and that alone was the reason she didnt like him. It had nothing to do with other characters parents dislike of him.

in point of fact it is fairly strongly hinted that she would almost like Naruto more at her younger age if he hadnt been so annoying to her. if he'd acted more mature and understanding to her due to their similar personalities.

alot of it comes from authors forgetting or down playing the importance of the bench scene in regards to both Naruto and Sakuras feelings to each other.

thus Sakuras parents get the short end of the stick in fiction.
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#1607 Jenskott

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Posted 21 July 2009 - 06:57 AM

QUOTE
Okay, this is a little random... but I was just skimming through the Die For Our Ship page on TV Tropes, and where they talk about Naruto, somebody put this:

QUOTE
Naru/Saku shippers seem to prefer to attack Sakura's mother! She's had about two lines in the anime and has made no appearance in the manga, but Naru/Saku shippers unleash the fury of Hell upon her.



...Anyone else as confused as I am?


I had seen that line and I also got puzzled. I guess it steems from fanfiction. Some of them turn her into a kind of evil demon. But I yet have to see one NaruSaku shipper unleashing the fury of Hell upon her...

Now, I think Sakura's parents regarded Naruto like the rest of the village: he was a demon and he was to be shunned and treated like an outcast. And it's downright possible they told their child he was a bad guy and she was to stay away him. But I doubt they ordered her hating him!

However fanfiction often exaggerates the characters' good and/or bad traits and twists their personalities around in order to fulfill a personal agenda, increasing drama -in a cheap fashion- or lead the plot towards a pre-set outcome.

That's what happens with Sakura's parents. Yet I haven't seen NaruSaku fans picking on them during serious arguments or debates.

Whoever said that about NS fans was biased or misinformed.

By the way... Do you remember what we were arguing about fanarts? Yesterday I saw this pic in Devianart:

NaruSaku by Algebrawiz

How you can see, the second comment is already an anti-NaruSaku barb. The SECOND comment.

One of our members -Ciardha- very kindly and nicely put that basher in his/her place. I'm copying/pasting their argument in here because I think it's interesting -and useful to whoever stumbles upon the "Abuser Sakura" nosense-:

Basher:

QUOTE
I'll admit this art owns and very good details, but them together won't work. She abuses Naruto and that will someday cause him some serious brain damage or disablilities so meh. Still, love it


Ciardha:

QUOTE
Oh good grief, Naruto must be your first manga/anime! Look up the term tsundere. (And Sakura has been much more sweet and supportive all along to Naruto than your typical tsundere. Go back and read the manga instead of fanfiction) Tsunade to Jiraiya is much more typical tsundere. It's meant to be taken humorously, to show the female character is not a doormat, but is feisty. It's meant to show this is a relationship of equals. Kishimoto has had several male characters say that is the ideal woman a man strives for. And note, the only living couple that are parents of one of the Konoha 11 Kishimoto has shown is just such a pairing Shikamaru's parents- Shikaku and Yoshino.


Basher:

QUOTE
x_x ughm...ok? I was just saying my point of view. As detailed and good argument u said, it doesn't relate to how Sakura is with Naruto. U'r just telling me that men have taste in women and some are good matches and stuff. But those tastes can be decived and thus Naruto doesn't know any better between a gentle loving girl like Hinata and an abusive hardcore girl like Sakura. Forget Tsunade shes to old, and everyone else is just fill ins lol


Ciardha:

QUOTE
Oh good grief- read more manga. It's meant to funny, it's purely symbolic showing she's fiesty, not abusive.

It's a trope just like the passive fangirl like Hinata. And hate to break it to you but Hinata's got plenty of negatives- she has no concern about the welfare of her sensei, who stood up to her father for her sake, and Hinata was her favorite student who she cared deeply for. Yet she never expresses any concern for Kurenai, didn't even visit her when Asuma died, didn't have a second of concern for Kurenai when Konoha was attacked, and Kurenai is in her late months of pregnancy. She has no concern for her sister Hanabi either, but Hanabi does for her.

Compare that to Sakura, she's very worried about Tsunade, and showed her concern during the attack on Konoha too. She also saved a little girl- Tami from the giant centipede attacking Konoha during Pain's attack, and spoke gently to the frightened hurt child while she healed her.

Hinata has never shown any concern or emotional bonds to any females, and that's meant to be seen as negative telling point.

This is Kishimoto's subtle take on the negative of the type Hinata portrays. Just as Sakura is a much more gentle, kindhearted character than the usual of her type.

Hinata also has never done anything for Naruto's emotional support, standing around and watching being sad for Naruto does absolutely nothing for him. Sakura who you call "an abusive hardcore girl" has been there for Naruto from even the start of part 1: chapter 5- frightened that Kakashi was going to kill Naruto she breaks cover (as far as she knows putting her own life in grave danger) and cries out for Naruto to flee. Chunin exams written test, she has come to value Naruto's goal of becoming Hokage as highly as he does, because it means so much to him, no thoughts of her own goals much less how Sasuke might react, she begins to raise her hand to knock them out of the exams so Naruto can take the exams again and someday fulfill his dream of becoming Hokage, that's just two of several examples during part 1 of the manga. In part 2 she's constantly been there for him. She also has trust in him, she worries but she trusts him- that's a core part of real love. Hinata has no trust in Naruto, she worries about him, but she has no trust in him.

Kishimoto is trying to show readers like you that real love is complex and grows over time like Naruto and Sakura's relationship. It's not simplistic worshipping/adoration like Sakura and Ino's feelings for Sasuke in part 1, Hinata's for Naruto's in part 1 and 2, and Lee's for Sakura in part 1 (subtly in part 2)


Basher:

QUOTE
..........Idk why I read it all...but 2x the holy crap...

Can u note me pls? I've never met such a strong willed girl to advise such solid proof, I have no fun in arguing but learning from what u said was amazing impressive 5/5 lol!


Ciardha:

QUOTE
I just get annoyed with Sakura bashing, and point out what's actually in the manga.


How all of us do, friend.

(Ciardha, if you're reading this and you don't like I copied/pasted your discussion, warn me and I'll edit my post).

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#1608 Yumi-chan

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Posted 21 July 2009 - 11:45 AM

Well damn that basher.
Ciardha sooo got him/her!I don't like when people bash Sakura too...As she said,it's ment to be taken funny,Sakura is not a monster.She is nothing less carrying than Hinata.In almoast every shounen manga i have read,there's the main character,and the sub,who punches him,"tortures"him but actually really likes him and is connected to him.So duh.Humor,people,humor.

If you can't get someone out of your head,maybe theu are supposed to stay there.

#1609 Cloud

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Posted 21 July 2009 - 02:06 PM

QUOTE (RyrineaHaruno @ Jul 20 2009, 05:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yeah, every fic has Sakura mom out to be some short of Naruto hater. I try too also stay away from story like that. I mean serouilly it's totally weird they do that. Really, I don't use the argument at all either.


Wait.. wait..

EVERY FIC?

So that means you read through all 100,000+ of fics on fanfiction.net? mellow.gif

#1610 RyrineaHaruno

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Posted 21 July 2009 - 03:06 PM

QUOTE (Cloud @ Jul 21 2009, 09:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Wait.. wait..

EVERY FIC?

So that means you read through all 100,000+ of fics on fanfiction.net? mellow.gif

Yeah not every fic but some. I forgot to put the not in my sentence.

Edited by RyrineaHaruno, 21 July 2009 - 03:36 PM.


#1611 Freakazoid

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Posted 22 July 2009 - 01:02 AM

I'm not sure if these can be really considered arguments, but whatever they got my interest a bit.

Supposedly the mention of Hyuuga is a big sign towards NH(TOTALLY didn't see that coming! /sarcasm). Also, I guess SaiSaku has a huge chance to become canon? Concerning something about 'Jungian Typology', I have no idea what that is...anyone care to enlighten me? biggrin.gif

#1612 Cloud

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Posted 22 July 2009 - 01:08 AM

Ugh. Jung...

Let's not go there... >_> It reminds me of my high school philosophy class. It'll take too long to explain the Jungian archetype. DX

I'd love to add some points, but Jenskott pretty much took all the words possible. XD

#1613 Freakazoid

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Posted 22 July 2009 - 01:13 AM

QUOTE (Cloud @ Jul 21 2009, 06:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ugh. Jung...

Let's not go there... >_> It reminds me of my high school philosophy class. It'll take too long to explain the Jungian archetype. DX

I'd love to add some points, but Jenskott pretty much took all the words possible. XD


He always destroys all arguments before I even get one word typed! Ah well, so is this Jungian whatever anything to worry about then?

#1614 Cloud

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Posted 22 July 2009 - 01:16 AM

Like I said, its too long to explain. XD

He was a philosopher/psychologist, if I remember my philosophy classes correctly. Google for more information, because philosophy isn't my forte.

wink.gif

#1615 Freakazoid

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Posted 22 July 2009 - 01:19 AM

QUOTE (Cloud @ Jul 21 2009, 06:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Like I said, its too long to explain. XD

He was a philosopher/psychologist, if I remember my philosophy classes correctly. Google for more information, because philosophy isn't my forte.

wink.gif


Gah, gonna make me read things?? shamefulcry0js.gif

#1616 Cloud

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Posted 22 July 2009 - 01:23 AM

Haha. Alright...

Jungian Archetypes

Hopefully this helps.

Back on topic. Excuse my intrusion.

#1617 Freakazoid

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Posted 22 July 2009 - 01:26 AM

Wow. I have no idea what I just read! Whatever, that theory reaches farther then anything I've seen....while I won't deny Kishimoto could pull something like that, it would be a pretty random thing to have, and not random/surprising in a good way...more like, just plain silly.

#1618 Jenskott

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Posted 22 July 2009 - 10:25 AM

QUOTE
Supposedly the mention of Hyuuga is a big sign towards NH(TOTALLY didn't see that coming! /sarcasm).


One year ago, when we got introduced to Raikage and he mentioned the Hyuuga incident, we had a stream of "Oh, My God! The Hyuuga clan has been mentioned! It means Hinata will show up and NH WILL happen!" rubbish. Some arguments assured Hinata would be in peril due to the Cloud nins, and Naruto would be appointed his protector, assuring their relationship's strengthening thusly.

Unsurprisingly, their predictions, foretellings and omens didn't come to pass (again).

Now, it's true Hinata showed up (Kishimoto needed a scapegoat, after all), but it isn't related to Raikage words, neither they foreshadowed her appeareance -and poor showing-. And I have no idea of where they got from the idea of Hinata's life would be menaced and Tsunade would appoint Naruto like her bodyguard. Why did Cloud nins care about her? And why would Tsunade appoint Naruto when it's way more logical Hiashi hiamself took care of his daughter's protection, appointing that task to Neji or even several clansmen? And why would Kishimoto waste time and pannel space with such insignificant subplot when there were and are more important subplots for being resolved, and he has never given Hinata much attention or pannel time?

Oh, yes. Because, according her fans, she's incredibly important. Not matter what she's barely showed up, her appearances have always been poor and unimpressive, and she's barely involved in the main plot.

QUOTE
Also, I guess SaiSaku has a huge chance to become canon? Concerning something about 'Jungian Typology', I have no idea what that is...anyone care to enlighten me?


More absurdity. That argument assumes Kishimoto has read Jung's books, cares for Jungian phylosophy and archetypes, and he plans using them in Naruto.

This is a shonen manga. A comic-book targets teen male kids. It isn't full of complex philosophy and simbolysm. Let alone Jungian phylosophy and simbolysm.

People isn't wanting accepting Sakura can be in love with Naruto in spite of plenty hints found in the manga, but they try proving Sakura is falling in love with Sai -in spite of no hints in the manga and nearly zero interaction- using Jung's books? Seriously?

QUOTE
QUOTE
I'd love to add some points, but Jenskott pretty much took all the words possible.


He always destroys all arguments before I even get one word typed!


Thank you, but I'm not so good of a debater. It's only other fans use such a poor logic than tearing it apart, eviscerating it and destroying it takes no effort at all.

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#1619 RyrineaHaruno

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Posted 22 July 2009 - 03:34 PM

QUOTE
Supposedly the mention of Hyuuga is a big sign towards NH(TOTALLY didn't see that coming! /sarcasm).


Yeah, right just because they mentioned her name doesn't mean NH.
QUOTE
Also, I guess SaiSaku has a huge chance to become canon? Concerning something about 'Jungian Typology', I have no idea what that is...anyone care to enlighten me?


Wait......." what? I have not idea why they think that Sai x Sakura has a huge chance of becoming canon.

QUOTE
More absurdity. That argument assumes Kishimoto has read Jung's books, cares for Jungian phylosophy and archetypes, and he plans using them in Naruto.

This is a shonen manga. A comic-book targets teen male kids. It isn't full of complex philosophy and symbolism. Let alone Jungian philosophy and symbolism.

People aren't wanting to accept Sakura can be in love with Naruto in spite of plenty of hints found in the manga, but they try proving Sakura is falling in love with Sai -in spite of no hints in the manga and nearly zero interaction- using Jung's books? Seriously?


#1620 Cloud

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Posted 22 July 2009 - 03:52 PM

Jungian Archetypes in Naruto. facepalm.png

The theory itself is already complex enough, no need to murder teenage minds with complex philosophical terms and psychological interpretations on the human nature.

But I guess it gives the fanboys ammo....




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