183 replies to this topic

[Miss Soupy]

is it just me, but Danzou cares for the sake of Konoha, but just in the means of evil ways.

Danzou is just an old-style ninja. The type that thinks of himself and other ninjas as a sacrifice for a greater peace. Ninjas first came to be to help bring peace to the world and be just that. To him, his ways aren't evil, they are just necessary. However, both Naruto and Sasuke go against the old ninja way. Sasuke was hurt by this system and wants to destroy it through killing. Naruto doesn't want to see people hurt like Sasuke was and wants to destroy it through peace.

I don't really consider Danzou evil. He is just more of a true ninja and is disliked because he is 'old school'. It's sort of funny, because Naruto's dream of peace sort of makes ninja obsolete.

[pinkheartsyellowstars]

Danzou is just an old-style ninja. The type that thinks of himself and other ninjas as a sacrifice for a greater peace. Ninjas first came to be to help bring peace to the world and be just that. To him, his ways aren't evil, they are just necessary. However, both Naruto and Sasuke go against the old ninja way. Sasuke was hurt by this system and wants to destroy it through killing. Naruto doesn't want to see people hurt like Sasuke was and wants to destroy it through peace.

I don't really consider Danzou evil. He is just more of a true ninja and is disliked because he is 'old school'. It's sort of funny, because Naruto's dream of peace sort of makes ninja obsolete.

Oh, now its clear for me... Thanks miss soupy

[ciardha]

I don't really consider Danzou evil. He is just more of a true ninja and is disliked because he is 'old school'. It's sort of funny, because Naruto's dream of peace sort of makes ninja obsolete.

I see him as evil, he's evil like Osama bin Laden is evil. Completely soaked in a ruthless ideology and willing to sacrifice anyone else besides himself for it. Everyone else is a mere tool to be used until it breaks. Kishimoto has made a point several times about how this mindset must end or people will continue to die pointlessly. (Jiraiya speaks of this, Nagato, Minato, Tsunade, Naruto, Gaara) Danzo isn't even "old school" ninja- Hashirama and Tobirama were older school ninja than Danzo but they did not believe the way he does. Danzo has the ninja mentality that Madara does, that he has to be the ruler of the world and all others are his tools to use, manipulate and destroy.

[socermania2]

Danzo is evil in the same way Madara is evil; they use people as tools to get ahead.

Instead of helping Konoha during the Pain attack, he tried to plan a coup d'etat.

He sacrifices others to obtain power he shouldn't have.

He thinks like a dictator; his way is right and all others should be purged.

I'm therefore happy Sasuke killed the guy. But Sasuke is not good for killing Danzo, because he didn't kill him to prevent others from being hurt by him, but to further his own agenda.

It's funny how people think like that.

[forfayfen]

hmm, i don't believe it.

characters in this manga do not die so abruptly. sure, a sword through the heart would certainly kill a person, but not here. by the way, when was it established that karin was sasuke's girlfriend? the base of a relationship is two people attracted to each other. Not one infatuated and other blunt on revenge.

[Muffins?]

hmm, i don't believe it.

characters in this manga do not die so abruptly. sure, a sword through the heart would certainly kill a person, but not here. by the way, when was it established that karin was sasuke's girlfriend? the base of a relationship is two people attracted to each other. Not one infatuated and other blunt on revenge.

Characters in this manga don't die abruptly? how bout Haku for one example one moment she was fighting Naruto the next she was killed by Kakashi. Also I don't think any one here said that Karin was Sasuke's girlfriend only a teammate.

[Miss Soupy]

I see him as evil, he's evil like Osama bin Laden is evil. Completely soaked in a ruthless ideology and willing to sacrifice anyone else besides himself for it. Everyone else is a mere tool to be used until it breaks. Kishimoto has made a point several times about how this mindset must end or people will continue to die pointlessly. (Jiraiya speaks of this, Nagato, Minato, Tsunade, Naruto, Gaara) Danzo isn't even "old school" ninja- Hashirama and Tobirama were older school ninja than Danzo but they did not believe the way he does. Danzo has the ninja mentality that Madara does, that he has to be the ruler of the world and all others are his tools to use, manipulate and destroy.

Uh, no, not at all. There is a difference between what Danzou is and a terrorist who believes he is fighting a holy war. You are way off there.

He is ruthless because he believes in his ideals and doesn't believe anyone else can protect Konoha. And ninja were created to keep peace by being sacrifices. THAT is what being old school is. Danzou was not the only one brought up to act this way, the elders were as well. In fact all the leaders were aware of it, they just didn't all put as much emphasis on it. Sarutobi for example didn't believe in that method but he was powerless to stop it.

Yeah, Danzou's methods seem evil and wrong to us. But in the Narutoverse, they are somewhat expected. The story is about changing from these old methods, of course, through Naruto's vision of peace. But it is much more complicated than just being right or wrong. Danzou wanted to protect Konoha, that's what he told Sasuke. He just goes about it in a hurtful way. He doesn't believe that hatred can be stopped.

I actually wonder if hatred can be stopped as long as there are ninja. While ninja were created to bring peace, there have been many ninja wars in which they caused a lot of pain for innocent people. I wonder how kishi will handle it.

[naruto-z]

i've been thinking...karin does have a uniqueness which is her ability to heal people by letting them bite her and use her chakra. so wouldn't that mean she might be able to use her own chakra on herself to heal herself? i think thats quite possible. and also...even if sasuke does go back to konoha it's not just going to be super easy "Oh he's redeemed!" and Sakura just falling for him all over again. It's never that simple...and after all he's done no one's going to just invite him back with open arms (except for maybe naruto cuz he's naruto). It's been a long time since sakura and sasuke love thing so even sakura has changed. And with all the narusaku developement...it'll be a very big change or some insane thing that'll change everyone's ideas of sasuke for them to just forgive him. I think sakura's not going to be going back to sasuke...not after she learns of how sasuke's changed.

[Hak]

I see him as evil, he's evil like Osama bin Laden is evil. Completely soaked in a ruthless ideology and willing to sacrifice anyone else besides himself for it. Everyone else is a mere tool to be used until it breaks. Kishimoto has made a point several times about how this mindset must end or people will continue to die pointlessly. (Jiraiya speaks of this, Nagato, Minato, Tsunade, Naruto, Gaara) Danzo isn't even "old school" ninja- Hashirama and Tobirama were older school ninja than Danzo but they did not believe the way he does. Danzo has the ninja mentality that Madara does, that he has to be the ruler of the world and all others are his tools to use, manipulate and destroy.

I think Osama is a bit off, I'd say someone like G.W. Bush where as Madara could be like Osama... Both have done much harm and both have an ideology backing it.



Side note, I really don't want to argue about US politics. After all I'm from Europe...

[ciardha]

Uh, no, not at all. There is a difference between what Danzou is and a terrorist who believes he is fighting a holy war. You are way off there.

Not really. I just used Osama bin Laden as an example of that type evil leadership. Stalin was the same type leader, just using a non religious ruthless ideology- a ruthless ideology is a ruthless ideology. I only used Osama bin Laden as my example rather than Stalin because Stalin's been dead for a number years and even to my generation was kind of a vague historical figure. But if it makes the comparison I'm making clearer, without muddying the image with religious contexts, Stalin makes a good comparison. I'm not talking about the totally crazy evil type dictators like Pol Pot or Idi Amin- the monstrously evil leaders that were the center of news coverage when I was growing up- but a leader true to a ruthless ideology capable of swaying a population to enthusiastically follow that ideology. It's a much scarier evil because of that- it's not so crazy that most people outright reject it, but sways many to follow it. But those that vocally reject that ideology are eliminated in the same ruthless way that Pol Pot or Idi Amin used on the entire population of their countries, scaring others that disagree with the ruthless ideology into silence. This is what Stalin did in the Soviet Union. Danzo has done something as ruthless with Root members with that curse seal on their tongues and making them believe they must have no emotions, no bonds with others. (Note as well how Danzo looks suspiciously at Sai when he only asks a question of him- definitely makes me think of some of the stories I heard about Stalin.)

Hashirama was a generation older than Danzo, Koharu and Homura. Also look back to the founder of the ninjas, the beliefs that Hashirama passed down were quite close to his. What Kishimoto has set up is two competing ways, the way of the Rikudou Sennin which the Senju clan tried to follow, and that of the Uchiha which is of the same ruthless ideology that Danzo follows (I still wonder if Danzo wasn't Madara's student since they use much the same tactics) so Hashirama's way is actually more "old school" than Madara's or Danzo's. Hiruzen improved on Hashirama and Tobirama's way, and Tsunade improved on Hiruzen's, each step bringing them closer to the Rikudou Sennin's ideal. But yes, we've heard from Jiraiya, Nagato and Minato that the ninja system itself has to end for real peace to happen, and we know Naruto will be the one who does this.

I believe I understand your conclusions though, and you make good points- shows me where I need to try to clarify my points. I'm not that great at debating like you are. Have you had classes on how to debate? I didn't because I have a strong personal dislike for conflict- I became a fan of John Lennon and Yoko Ono when I was 12 because they shared my dreams and ideals, and consider them my mentors. I'm passionate in my beliefs like they were/are, but like them I ultimately believe conflict is pointless. (so of course I totally love this concept is playing a strong role in part 2 of the manga.)

I definitely did like your strong stand against Sasuke being with anyone because of the type person he is- even before this latest chapter sent shockwaves through the fandom. I wasn't quite as strong on that point, but when you posted, it made me wonder silently if Kishimoto wasn't going to make sasukarin a plotline about how it's not a good thing for a girl stay with a destructive minded guy, even if he does have some small attraction to her. This chapter seems to answer that question. I wonder if he'll have Karin make a break with Sasuke- if she is still alive, or will he continue the pattern like it sadly happens all too often in real life, and she'll stay with him because she's in love with him. Will she break free or will she become a tragic figure that truly dooms herself? What do you think?

[Strangelove]

I see him as evil, he's evil like Osama bin Laden is evil. Completely soaked in a ruthless ideology and willing to sacrifice anyone else besides himself for it. Everyone else is a mere tool to be used until it breaks. Kishimoto has made a point several times about how this mindset must end or people will continue to die pointlessly. (Jiraiya speaks of this, Nagato, Minato, Tsunade, Naruto, Gaara) Danzo isn't even "old school" ninja- Hashirama and Tobirama were older school ninja than Danzo but they did not believe the way he does. Danzo has the ninja mentality that Madara does, that he has to be the ruler of the world and all others are his tools to use, manipulate and destroy.

Lol...i would say something like...keep politics out of IC discussion...

[Prime]

Not really. I just used Osama bin Laden as an example of that type evil leadership. Stalin was the same type leader, just using a non religious ruthless ideology- a ruthless ideology is a ruthless ideology. I only used Osama bin Laden as my example rather than Stalin because Stalin's been dead for a number years and even to my generation was kind of a vague historical figure. But if it makes the comparison I'm making clearer, without muddying the image with religious contexts, Stalin makes a good comparison. I'm not talking about the totally crazy evil type dictators like Pol Pot or Idi Amin- the monstrously evil leaders that were the center of news coverage when I was growing up- but a leader true to a ruthless ideology capable of swaying a population to enthusiastically follow that ideology. It's a much scarier evil because of that- it's not so crazy that most people outright reject it, but sways many to follow it. But those that vocally reject that ideology are eliminated in the same ruthless way that Pol Pot or Idi Amin used on the entire population of their countries, scaring others that disagree with the ruthless ideology into silence. This is what Stalin did in the Soviet Union. Danzo has done something as ruthless with Root members with that curse seal on their tongues and making them believe they must have no emotions, no bonds with others. (Note as well how Danzo looks suspiciously at Sai when he only asks a question of him- definitely makes me think of some of the stories I heard about Stalin.)

Hashirama was a generation older than Danzo, Koharu and Homura. Also look back to the founder of the ninjas, the beliefs that Hashirama passed down were quite close to his. What Kishimoto has set up is two competing ways, the way of the Rikudou Sennin which the Senju clan tried to follow, and that of the Uchiha which is of the same ruthless ideology that Danzo follows (I still wonder if Danzo wasn't Madara's student since they use much the same tactics) so Hashirama's way is actually more "old school" than Madara's or Danzo's. Hiruzen improved on Hashirama and Tobirama's way, and Tsunade improved on Hiruzen's, each step bringing them closer to the Rikudou Sennin's ideal. But yes, we've heard from Jiraiya, Nagato and Minato that the ninja system itself has to end for real peace to happen, and we know Naruto will be the one who does this.

I believe I understand your conclusions though, and you make good points- shows me where I need to try to clarify my points. I'm not that great at debating like you are. Have you had classes on how to debate? I didn't because I have a strong personal dislike for conflict- I became a fan of John Lennon and Yoko Ono when I was 12 because they shared my dreams and ideals, and consider them my mentors. I'm passionate in my beliefs like they were/are, but like them I ultimately believe conflict is pointless. (so of course I totally love this concept is playing a strong role in part 2 of the manga.)

I definitely did like your strong stand against Sasuke being with anyone because of the type person he is- even before this latest chapter sent shockwaves through the fandom. I wasn't quite as strong on that point, but when you posted, it made me wonder silently if Kishimoto wasn't going to make sasukarin a plotline about how it's not a good thing for a girl stay with a destructive minded guy, even if he does have some small attraction to her. This chapter seems to answer that question. I wonder if he'll have Karin make a break with Sasuke- if she is still alive, or will he continue the pattern like it sadly happens all too often in real life, and she'll stay with him because she's in love with him. Will she break free or will she become a tragic figure that truly dooms herself? What do you think?

Well to compare a Ninja to some other dictators is hard. Like the person above said the ninja world is different Danzou does want to protect Konoha even if his method of doing so involves death of others he is willing to do whatever it takes to save the rest. I think if it comes down to it Danzou is showing now that even he is willing to even put his life on the line and even end his own to save Konoha. Also is not that simply what a Hokage has done in the past over and over? That's what Sarutobi did. Also it's like what was said a long time ago. The best Ninja was a Ninja that has no emotion and Ninja are to not leave any trace of there body or give any information out and that is true.

I'm 100% against war until it has to happen. Madara has already declaired war and taking out Sasuke would be a big step to winning that war. As for Sasuke and Karin I don't see her leaving him. I don't think she will die or anything. While they lack much evidence of a pairing I feel she was put there for a reason. Why else would another Sasuke fan club member appear and happen to be female? Once you think about it her position really fits into place. Jugo is in a weird way sort of like Naruto he is mostly melee and basic Chakra attacks and pretty much likes everybody even if its a bird I guess. Karin is alot like Sakura to even if she's a little bit like 1st part Sakura you have to consider now she can heal just like Sakura and she trys to do anything she can to help. Suigetsu is really elemental and really is alot like Sasuke he's kind of there for his own purpose and has plans of his own. Sasuke now kind of takes the place of Kakashi he is the strongest of the group he leads and keeps everyone that fights in line. He uses the eye and lightning techniques and seems to always have a "One up" on the opponent.

So once you consider what everyone is like it's like Sasuke's new team is just a exact replacement for his old one.

[James S Cassidy]

I think Osama is a bit off, I'd say someone like G.W. Bush where as Madara could be like Osama... Both have done much harm and both have an ideology backing it.



Side note, I really don't want to argue about US politics. After all I'm from Europe...

I wish we would just leave politics out of it period.

G.W. Bush is not like anybody and Madara is not like any terrorists either. They are just fictional characters pertaining to the role they were given. They could have similarities with real life people, but then again what doesn't?

Let's keep politics and Naruto away from each other.

[Hak]

Let's keep politics and Naruto away from each other.

Agreed!



G'night

[Insurrection]

Okay we'll stick with the Naruto here folks. We had this issue a few topics back, no politics! I believe we come here to get away from that crap....and NaruHina fans. It's a little superficial to compare manga characters to real-life dictators and mass-murderers.

Now to Naruto related info. Karin's future is uncertain to me. While Karin dying could reinforce the obvious fact that Sasuke is evil, by reinforcing that he is worse then trash for discarding his teammates. Betraying Konoha and then even Taka, he is consumed into the darkness, though Madara is obviously the main villain. If Karin does live it will still be a foreshadowing for the conflict Sakura will come to face. Karin will be shocked and feel betrayed, probably give Sakura information if it that does happen. Though if she did live, Madara might have saved her because he considers her useful.

Sasuke though continues his quest to become the world's greatest dumbass. *Holds out hand* Naruto and Sakura please!

Edited by Insurrection, 31 January 2010 - 11:00 PM.

[Kamina-Yoshi]

I come back to this topic to find Osama bin Laden. Grand. Keep the politics for the politics thread, please.

Edited by Kamina-Yoshi, 31 January 2010 - 11:24 PM.

[Dreamer]

Madara is using Sasuke as a tool. He's only told Sasuke half-truths to manipulate him to do his dirty work. Take the fight with Danzo. Madara probably could have fought Danzo himself, but instead wanted Sasuke to do it. There were probably two purposes to this fight 1) to get rid of Danzo and 2) to make Sasuke become even more engulfed in hatred and darkness. If Madara can succeed in getting Sasuke to completely despise everything Konoha, then Sasuke will be a willing participant in its destruction. Remember, Madara never told Sasuke about his own involvement in the Kyuubi attack 16 years ago. He claimed it was a natural disaster. But Yondaime's talk with Naruto proves otherwise. So to that effect, Sasuke is choosing his own path of hatred, but based on inaccurate information; just as he choose the path of an avenger based on what he knew of the Uchiha Massacre and what Itachi wanted him to know about it.

Regarding #4, don't forget that Sasuke is also important to Naruto. Naruto views Sasuke as his brother and was one of the first bonds that he made. It's not like Naruto is trying to bring Sasuke back solely for Sakura. I have no doubt in my mind that even without the "promise of a lifetime," Naruto would still be fighting tooth and nail to bring Sasuke back. The original Team 7 was like Naruto's first family and he desperately wants to reclaim that feeling. That's why Sasuke's actions feel so unforgivable right now because we want Naruto to be able to redeem Sasuke. We want to see Naruto reclaim those bonds. And even if Sasuke were to be redeemed and come back to Konoha, that doesn't necessarily mean that SasuSaku is a sure fire win. Until there is development between Sakura and Sasuke that says otherwise, currently NaruSaku is the stronger of the two.

You forget cold blooded murderer's don't get free residential/visiting passes back to the village regardless if Sasuke is being mind rape (which all I believe is Madara told Sasuke the truth) or not he still in control of his own actions.

It seems like Psycho Sasuke could now want everyone in the village to die as the Uchiha clan was wiped out from Konoha orders.

[Gravenimage]

You forget cold blooded murderer's don't get free residential/visiting passes back to the village regardless if Sasuke is being mind rape (which all I believe is Madara told Sasuke the truth) or not he still in control of his own actions.

It seems like Psycho Sasuke could now want everyone in the village to die as the Uchiha clan was wiped out from Konoha orders.

I agree with you Madara told Sasuke the truth and Sasuke chose revenge over everything else. He won't be forgiven and welcome back by the village without getting executed for his crimes. Besides I bet even if he finds out that Madara was the one who summoned the Kyuubi to attack Konoha he won't change his mind. Sasuke has entered the darkness and embrace it which officially kills S/S once and for all. I even read comments from S/S fans who have given on their pairing becoming canon in the manga while others are being stubborn like the N/H fans and still believe it will happen.

Edited by Gravenimage, 01 February 2010 - 02:20 AM.

[Strangelove]

Well...this completes Sasuke's revenge...and the funny thing is...he just got consumed by it. I bet he will want even more revenge.

Now coming back to another thing...I wonder what the 9 tails meant of what will happen if Sasuke kills Naruto...as i quote...Sasuke is gonna regret it...but right at this moment i hardly doubt he will regret anything...

Edited by Strangelove, 01 February 2010 - 01:49 AM.