169 replies to this topic

[Dalton.T.R]

i agree, everything started going downhill slowly after pein arc. the war arc is where they actually messed up a lot things; naruto suddenly becoming OP as hell, sasuke becoming a good guy, legendary ninjas coming back from the dead (not so legendary anymore), kaguya's random appearance which wasted a lot of chapters that could have been naruto and sasuke's final battle, naruto's stupid reason to save sasuke ruined the long anticipated battle, and of course the ending. 

Don't even get me started on the war ark. I mean, good grief.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

i agree, everything started going downhill slowly after pein arc. the war arc is where they actually messed up a lot things; naruto suddenly becoming OP as hell, sasuke becoming a good guy, legendary ninjas coming back from the dead (not so legendary anymore), kaguya's random appearance which wasted a lot of chapters that could have been naruto and sasuke's final battle, naruto's stupid reason to save sasuke ruined the long anticipated battle, and of course the ending. 

That was something that really pissed me off about the War Arc - these "legendary shinobi" were supposed to be among the most powerful in the history of the shinobi world (which is obviously the biggest reason why they were chosen for the technique), especially guys like the previous Kages (and the four Hokages specifically), and yet with how they get displayed in the fighting, you would be very hard pressed to believe it. It doesn't help that they felt they had to give Hashirama a completely out-of-nowhere, unexplained Sage Mode, or Minato with his own Kurama Cloak of Kurama's Yin half while also somehow making those two mutual partners at the very least ala Bee and Gyuki even though it was established that the Shiki Fuin should have had them fighting each other for eternity in the Shinigami's stomach, or having Tobirama not use any time-space jutsu even though it was implied that he had created some. And this wasn't even the first time we saw such things happening - guys like Jiraiya, who clearly worked his butt off for years to get as strong as he was, was completely overtaken by Naruto within a month. 

I get the whole "surpassing the previous generation" bit, but the stories that do it decently usually did it gradually, over the course of years if not the next generation's lifetime where that next generation didn't only grow stronger physically and/or in brute power, but also mentally and emotionally, leaning how the bigger world around them was beyond their far more narrow view as a child, and so on. The only exceptions being ones like Orochimaru, Minato, or Itachi, those "once in a generation geniuses", thus extremely rare. Here, you had Naruto and Sasuke, within literal moments (due to their meeting Hagaromo's chakra ghost thing) becoming essentially among the top ten most powerful ever, but only in terms of such brute power, but when you compare them to part one, they haven't really changed at all mentally or emotionally. Heck, if anything, they, like a number of characters, regressed, and yet we're supposed to believe, especially now, that they have "surpassed" the previous generation(s) that had to work their butts off and face who-knows-how-many trials and tribulations and make who-knows-how-many-sacrifices to get to where they were?

[Legend054]

well said. and yeah good point i don't understand how hashirama got his sage mode either and minato's kurama cloak, there's no originality there at all. they have their unique abilities and signature techniques. they didnt need to steal naruto and jiraiya's powers. no worries, i guess the anime will add more fillers to show how they got these powers lol.  in the end the legendary shinobi were brought back just to show how pathetic they are in comparison to madara. kishi had really overdone it. such a shame he destroyed these amazing characters with poor execution. he probably got too overexcited with these crazy ideas and just thrown it out there without a second thought.

 

and yeah, the power ups should have taken gradually through proper training, but then naruto gains control of the kyuubi by befriending him in a single day. it really feel like naruto and sasuke surpassed the previous generation in a single day after getting the huge power boost out of nowhere in the war.  that's just terrible execution. kishi clearly rushed it and just wanted to see the finished product which turned out to be a big mess...

[db84x]

@ Blackbird19 & Bail o' Lies

WSJ currently became best manga magazine because ToC system, the system is success so another manga magazine strat applied it too.  Thats why we saw a lot of trendy manga in shounen, most good manga is from seinen.

 

@ Legend054

As long as it cool shounen audience will eat it while Kishi already out of gass, he want to go honeymoon with his wife.

[BlackBird19]

@ Blackbird19 & Bail o' Lies

WSJ currently became best manga magazine because ToC system, the system is success so another manga magazine strat applied it too.  Thats why we saw a lot of trendy manga in shounen, most good manga is from seinen.

 

@ Legend054

As long as it cool shounen audience will eat it while Kishi already out of gass, he want to go honeymoon with his wife.

WSJ became the more successful of the magazines for one reason, they published Dragon Ball and One Piece. The ToC is purely secondary. 

[Bail o' Lies]

WSJ became the more successful of the magazines for one reason, they published Dragon Ball and One Piece.

And that made other inspiring mangaka flock to their magazine. They wanted to work at the same magazine that their favorite manga came from.

 

That was the case for Bleach One Piece, Naruto, Toriko, and Boku no Academy among others.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 26 May 2016 - 10:33 PM.

[rocci]

WSJ became the more successful of the magazines for one reason, they published Dragon Ball and One Piece. The ToC is purely secondary. 

It's Not really only that two, there's fist of North Star, that wrestling manga, saint seiya, and many more.

ToC is like rating system in tv, but unlike tv in wsj ToC only matter for new comer or not long running manga. There's other aspect that wsj take beside it especially for long runing manga and that's volume sales.

[BlackBird19]

It's Not really only that two, there's fist of North Star, that wrestling manga, saint seiya, and many more.

ToC is like rating system in tv, but unlike tv in wsj ToC only matter for new comer or not long running manga. There's other aspect that wsj take beside it especially for long runing manga and that's volume sales.

I know that they had other popular manga, but WSJ didn't start to outsell WSM again until DB came along.

[db84x]

Currently they still number one but due lag flagship manga, it not as big as when DB came.  Good mangaka usually avoid shounen because they afraid if their mangaka success than it will converted into next DB.

[BlackBird19]

Currently they still number one but due lag flagship manga, it not as big as when DB came.  Good mangaka usually avoid shounen because they afraid if their mangaka success than it will converted into next DB.

WSJ does have a flagship, it's called One Piece. They just don't have anything new to rival OP yet. Only AoT does that and they're published by Kodansha.

 

Also, all manga magazine circulations are down now. Thanks to the internet and a smaller population of kids, teens and young adults than ever. Japan is a country whose population is much older now, so worrying about the workforce, along with many other things, is much more important over there than the latest manga chapters.

[TouKen4Life3g]

It doesn't help that Assassination Classroom is releasing the final volume, so they really need a new series to hit big numbers. Right now, they're hoping on Boku no Hero Academia.

[Bail o' Lies]

Oh assassination classroom has already ended? They were trying to push that as the next big thing once Naruto started to decline before the ending. Toriko was for Bleach's decline.

 

Honestly ever since 2010 Shounen Jump has been trying to find the next big three for this generation. The problem is they haven't found any author that could extend their story for 700 chapters like oda kubo and kishimoto have. Nisekio should have ended by now, Toriko is apparently ending soon, assassination classroom has apparently ended, and i honestly don't see My hero academy or food wars going passed 300 or at best 400 chapters.

 

WSJ does have a flagship, it's called One Piece. They just don't have anything new to rival OP yet. Only AoT does that and they're published by Kodansha.

 

Also, all manga magazine circulations are down now. Thanks to the internet and a smaller population of kids, teens and young adults than ever. Japan is a country whose population is much older now, so worrying about the workforce, along with many other things, is much more important over there than the latest manga chapters.

Which is why they are so desperate to get international fanbases going, and are also desperate to keep the older generation as well to still read their mangas' as a hobby.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 29 May 2016 - 09:20 PM.

[db84x]

@ Bail
Thats unnecesarry because there are a lot of adult love shounen since age not always refeclt maturity anyway

[db84x]

@ Bail
Thats unnecesarry because there are a lot of adult love shounen since age not always refeclt maturity anyway

[rocci]

Lol backtracking.

@bail
Nah shonen jump will be fine.
It may took awhile but they will have another popular long running manga in the future.

[hinataiscreepy]

http://kawaiis26.tum...4/neji-is-cupid

 

So much win this post.

 

The biggest issue isn't that NaruHina became canon... Its the way that it went against the major messages of the series of going against destiny, being stronger and, a better person. Neji and the series were the collaterals.

 

This is something I love  in X men DOFP is that Wolverine in the end doesn't get the girl but he is clearly happy that everyone is alive, the future is not crap, and he is even happy that Scott is alive. That's good character writing because Wolverine thinks more about the well being of his friends than himself.

 

Edit: its the opposite with Hinata. Screwing with your crush was more important everyone else including your own family relatives. That's selfish and despicable to no end.

Edited by hinataiscreepy, 06 June 2016 - 12:54 PM.

[Bail o' Lies]

Lol backtracking.

@bail
Nah shonen jump will be fine.
It may took awhile but they will have another popular long running manga in the future.

I'm not saying Shounen Jump is in danger of shutting down. It still able to draw in new talent. I'm saying is they are looking for the next big manga to go international in order to make money. Then once they get that or they would prefer those manga to be big international hits. They then want it to stay around for as long as they possibly can make it. So they can milk it for all it's worth. Especially with the big three one ending "soon" while the other's sequel is flopping. So they are desperately hoping one of their manga will be able to reach international success soon, before they only have one piece left.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 06 June 2016 - 02:09 PM.

[BestSasuHinaSupporter]

Naruto loved Sakura for 698 chapters, over the course of which Kishimoto developed their relationship with the most focus and care. He set up blatant parallels to Minato/Kushina, Jiraiya/Tsunade and Obito/Rin. Characters like Yamato and Sai inferred Sakura had feelings for Naruto - this was only confirmed by the data books that mentioned how Sakura was no longer certain how she felt about Naruto, only that occasionally he would make her "heart beat faster" and yada yada. The build up was there. It undeniably was, and Naruto/Sakura is the only pairing in which the two showed genuine and mutual respect and admiration without compromising one another.

Naruto and Sakura were both very similar and yet different. I thought they complimented one another. More importantly, they could actually be themselves, and they always managed to laugh and smile around each other. There was clear affection and a level of intimacy between them, in the way that Naruto always regarded her with an affection suffix, and the way Sakura, as Sai pointed out how, was so familiar with Naruto there was no formality. They were close friends that shared a lot history; they laughed together, they went through difficult times together, and they always were thinking of each other.


The reason I could never "ship" SasuSaku or NaruHina was because they severely lacked development, or in SasuSaku's case only had negative development. Sasuke treated Sakura like crap for the vast majority of the manga, time and time again. On her own she was a headstrong kunoichi with convictions. When he part of the equation, she became a doormat, a demure little girl that allowed him to talk down to her and demean her. Forgiveness was one thing, but Sakura shouldn't have ended up with him. If not with Naruto, she should have moved on to someone else.


As for NaruHina, what irritates me about this couple is that no one seems to care what Naruto thinks or feels. Naruto wasn't attracted to Hinata, he didn't think of her as anything more than a friend, and he never had eyes for anyone but Sakura. It's not that I hate this pairing, it's that it's so underdeveloped that the only reason people seem to ship it is because Sakura is a "kitten" by comparison (which is nonsense). Hinata was one of the most intriguing characters of Part I. She had a very interesting background story and lots of potential. Kishimoto ended up relegating her to pairing fodder and had to break Team 7 to make NaruHina happen.


In 699, Sakura reverted to her 12 year old fangirl self from chapter 3. Sasuke instantly fell in love and acted like the Sasuke Naruto pretended to be in chapter 3. Naruto suddenly forgot he had been in love with Sakura for 5 years, was wholly apathetic, and fell in love with and married Hinata off panel. Yeah, we're supposed to watch a movie to make sense of that, but all that tells me is that Kishimoto changed his mind late into the game after he wrote Road to Ninja.


Also, what was the point in Karin and awakening her chakra chains to save Sasuke? What was that parallel to Sakura saving Naruto whilst Karin saved Sasuke for? NaruHina and SasuSaku must have been the intended endgame since at least 2012, and since then we had Minato infer Sakura was Naruto's girlfriend and compared her to Kushina; we had the CPR scene; Obito inferring Sakura felt very strongly about Naruto to which she was unusually silent, much like when Yamato inferred she was falling in love with him.


From 615 onwards, almost every last panel concerning Sakura had something to do with Naruto; she was always worried, concerned, panicked, relieved, praising him - what I don't get is why Kishimoto didn't give Hinata more panel time, she deserved that much at least. The fact he didn't simply gives credence to the theory he capitulated and chose to please the highest number of fans possible in Japan, where SasuSaku is the biggest hetero ship followed by NaruSaku and NaruHina.


In the end, my issue really isn't with the fact NaruSaku didn't happen. It's the way in which it didn't that I find upsetting. Naruto and Sakura didn't even interact after all was said it done. He didn't tell her how he felt, the promise wasn't brought up again - simply nothing. It's the lack of closure that will really haunt fans of this ship.

[Dalton.T.R]

Naruto loved Sakura for 698 chapters, over the course of which Kishimoto developed their relationship with the most focus and care. He set up blatant parallels to Minato/Kushina, Jiraiya/Tsunade and Obito/Rin. Characters like Yamato and Sai inferred Sakura had feelings for Naruto - this was only confirmed by the data books that mentioned how Sakura was no longer certain how she felt about Naruto, only that occasionally he would make her "heart beat faster" and yada yada. The build up was there. It undeniably was, and Naruto/Sakura is the only pairing in which the two showed genuine and mutual respect and admiration without compromising one another.

Naruto and Sakura were both very similar and yet different. I thought they complimented one another. More importantly, they could actually be themselves, and they always managed to laugh and smile around each other. There was clear affection and a level of intimacy between them, in the way that Naruto always regarded her with an affection suffix, and the way Sakura, as Sai pointed out how, was so familiar with Naruto there was no formality. They were close friends that shared a lot history; they laughed together, they went through difficult times together, and they always were thinking of each other.


The reason I could never "ship" SasuSaku or NaruHina was because they severely lacked development, or in SasuSaku's case only had negative development. Sasuke treated Sakura like crap for the vast majority of the manga, time and time again. On her own she was a headstrong kunoichi with convictions. When he part of the equation, she became a doormat, a demure little girl that allowed him to talk down to her and demean her. Forgiveness was one thing, but Sakura shouldn't have ended up with him. If not with Naruto, she should have moved on to someone else.


As for NaruHina, what irritates me about this couple is that no one seems to care what Naruto thinks or feels. Naruto wasn't attracted to Hinata, he didn't think of her as anything more than a friend, and he never had eyes for anyone but Sakura. It's not that I hate this pairing, it's that it's so underdeveloped that the only reason people seem to ship it is because Sakura is a "kitten" by comparison (which is nonsense). Hinata was one of the most intriguing characters of Part I. She had a very interesting background story and lots of potential. Kishimoto ended up relegating her to pairing fodder and had to break Team 7 to make NaruHina happen.


In 699, Sakura reverted to her 12 year old fangirl self from chapter 3. Sasuke instantly fell in love and acted like the Sasuke Naruto pretended to be in chapter 3. Naruto suddenly forgot he had been in love with Sakura for 5 years, was wholly apathetic, and fell in love with and married Hinata off panel. Yeah, we're supposed to watch a movie to make sense of that, but all that tells me is that Kishimoto changed his mind late into the game after he wrote Road to Ninja.


Also, what was the point in Karin and awakening her chakra chains to save Sasuke? What was that parallel to Sakura saving Naruto whilst Karin saved Sasuke for? NaruHina and SasuSaku must have been the intended endgame since at least 2012, and since then we had Minato infer Sakura was Naruto's girlfriend and compared her to Kushina; we had the CPR scene; Obito inferring Sakura felt very strongly about Naruto to which she was unusually silent, much like when Yamato inferred she was falling in love with him.


From 615 onwards, almost every last panel concerning Sakura had something to do with Naruto; she was always worried, concerned, panicked, relieved, praising him - what I don't get is why Kishimoto didn't give Hinata more panel time, she deserved that much at least. The fact he didn't simply gives credence to the theory he capitulated and chose to please the highest number of fans possible in Japan, where SasuSaku is the biggest hetero ship followed by NaruSaku and NaruHina.


In the end, my issue really isn't with the fact NaruSaku didn't happen. It's the way in which it didn't that I find upsetting. Naruto and Sakura didn't even interact after all was said it done. He didn't tell her how he felt, the promise wasn't brought up again - simply nothing. It's the lack of closure that will really haunt fans of this ship.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Excellent post. 

[rocci]

@bail
Even if the international sales flop, it would mean nothing if the local sales is high.
There's still bnha and sports manga.
While I doubt they'll replicate the success of big three few years in the future, I don't think they're that desperate.

@bestsasuhinashipper
Well said.
Kishi doesn't resolve NS is my big criticism from the romance aspect in this manga, since sakura isn't your side character. NS is the heroxheroine pairing and both of them are main character.