229 replies to this topic

[Aizen-Sama]

 

 

Misa is just one character among many, she is a delusional girl who was obsessed by an idea, then manipulated

It wasn't like that with Naomi, before she had helped L with the a case in the USA and then after her husband died during the Kira investigation she went to try help L again, not her fault that she met Light along the way

One of the top members in the Near investigation team is a woman

 

In any case it annoys me when people try to find secism in everything, seriously. 

This is a shonen, not always are women going to have to be an important part of the main cast, like I said in the case of Mahou shoujo where men characters have little to no role

People like Misa, Takada and Mikami ( who is not even a woman)  exist to show how great Light's manipulation skill is, that has nothing do with sexism

 

The character of Misa wouldn't have been a problem if she were not the main recurring female.  She is the 2nd Kira yet she is not shown on equal terms of intelligence or power to Light or L.  She was literally created to be a tool for Light by Ohba because Light needed someone with the Shinigami eyes and because Ohba also thought an all-male cast would be "boring" and needed a "cute female".

Halle was cool but she barely appeared.  Takada was cool too but she was treated like a 2nd Misa, a girlfriend for Light who was thrown away at the end.  Naomi had potential but she was killed off early by Ohba for "figuring things out too soon".  Yes, most of the male characters were treated like kitten too but they had intelligent capable guys like Light, L, and Near to balance that out.  The female characters had no such balance.  The sexist remarks through out the manga don't help either.

It's not about how many male or female characters there are; there could be an all-male cast or an all-female cast and the story could still be socially equal and contain no sexism at all.  It's about how these characters are portrayed (in the case of Death Note, how the few women in that series are portrayed).

Constructive criticism on social issues in manga may annoy you but it won't stop people from seeing it or speaking about it.

 

Anyway, I think we should get back on topic about Sakura and why people blame her.

[Nar123]

 

The character of Misa wouldn't have been a problem if she were not the main recurring female.  She is the 2nd Kira yet she is not shown on equal terms of intelligence or power to Light or L.  She was literally created to be a tool for Light by Ohba because Light needed someone with the Shinigami eyes and because Ohba also thought an all-male cast would be "boring" and needed a "cute female".

Halle was cool but she barely appeared.  Takada was cool too but she was treated like a 2nd Misa, a girlfriend for Light who was thrown away at the end.  Naomi had potential but she was killed off early by Ohba for "figuring things out too soon".  Yes, most of the male characters were treated like kitten too but they had intelligent capable guys like Light, L, and Near to balance that out.  The female characters had no such balance.  The sexist remarks through out the manga don't help either.

It's not about how many male or female characters there are; there could be an all-male cast or an all-female cast and the story could still be socially equal and contain no sexism at all.  It's about how these characters are portrayed (in the case of Death Note, how the few women in that series are portrayed).

Constructive criticism on social issues in manga may annoy you but it won't stop people from seeing it or speaking about it.

 

Anyway, I think we should get back on topic about Sakura and why people blame her.

 

It's not really a problem Misa not having the same intelligence as Light or L, none of the characters are as much intelligent as them except for Near 

As I already said, people like Misa, Takada and Mikami exist to show hoe much of a manipulator light is, there is not anything really sexist in that, I mean he manipulated everyone at some point in the story, even himself

 

If you want more Naomi just read the prequel she is a MC there. In  death note her husband also died early because he knew too much and yet this doesn't fall into any form of sexism right? 

 

If you're harping up about weak female characters, there is Halle, even if she was not a MC, she was a vital part in Near's team

 

And I believe that your idea about "sexist statements" are exaggerated

Edited by Nar123, 15 May 2015 - 03:03 PM.

[Aizen-Sama]

 

It's not really a problem Mira not having the same intelligence as Light or L, none of the characters are as much intelligent as them except for Near 

As I already said, people like Mira, Takada and Mikami exist to show hoe much of a manipulator light is, there is not anything really sexist in that, I mean he manipulated everyone at some point in the story, even himself

 

If you want more Naomi just read the prequel she is a MC there. In  death note her husband also died early because he knew too much and yet this doesn't fall into any form of sexism right? 

 

If you're harping up about weak female characters, there is Halle, even if she was not a MC, she was a vital part in Near's team

 

And I believe that your idea about "sexist statements" are exaggerated

 

Naomi never told Raye to stop being an FBI agent because he was her husband, unlike Raye who told her to stop being an FBI agent because she was his wife.  A light novel is not part of the main manga series.  How does one minor female character who barely appears make up for all the sexism in the show? 

I don't think my claims about Death Note being sexist are exaggerated, it's one of the main complaints the series gets.  Ohba's other manga Bakuman also gets many complaints about it so it's possible that the author just holds some questionable views.  If we make complaints about Kishimoto being sexist for making most of his female characters weak and lovesick, how come this does not apply to Death Note which treats its female characters exactly the same? 

[Nar123]

 

Naomi never told Raye to stop being an FBI agent because he was her husband, unlike Raye who told her to stop being an FBI agent because she was his wife. 

 

Misinterpreting

Naomi left the FBI because she wanted, for the sake of creating a family at the USA

It's not like Penber obligated her

 

 A light novel is not part of the main manga series.  How does one minor female character who barely appears make up for all the sexism in the show? 

 

 

It's cannon though

 

The series is not really sexist

 

 

I don't think my claims about Death Note being sexist are exaggerated, it's one of the main complaints the series gets. 

 

 

On the hand of people who like to claim sexism at everything

 

 

 

Ohba's other manga Bakuman also gets many complaints about it so it's possible that the author just holds some questionable views. 

 

 

Not talking about Bakuman, but Death Note

 

 

If we make complaints about Kishimoto being sexist for making most of his female characters weak and lovesick, how come this does not apply to Death Note which treats its female characters exactly the same? 

 

 

In death note not all female characters are driven by love

That's mainly for Misa and Takada who are manipulated by Light

 

Besides

You didn't answer my question about Raye being killed early not being sexist huh?

 

Anyway I'm done with this, I'm tired of people trying to find sexism in everything

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

For me, fan-service comes down to the situation and the execution really.

For example, I tend to look at the anime version of High School of the Dead as how NOT to use fan-service.

The manga version was fine as it usually manages to keep much of the fan-service in its own time, usually when the characters are taking a breather from fighting zombies and have some quieter downtime while rarely present at all when they're actually fighting zombies, allowing the reader to still feel the tenseness of their situations, wondering if anyone will get bitten or get killed or something. The anime version, however, sought to shove fan-service down the viewers' throats for virtually every situation, both adding more during situtations that happened in the manga to adding fan-service that didn't happen in the manga at all, to where most of the battles against zombies went from tense to laughable. I mean seriously, how can viewers be expected to take a zombie fight seriously or feel tense when you have freaking Matrix/Max Payne-style bullet time slow-motion with a sniper rifle round flying inches underneath a girl and showing a clear pantyhose and inches from the girl's crotch as she's jumping in the air, or literally flying between her pair of large, flopping breasts from momentum as she's bending over backwards, and then hitting a zombie, killing it?

[Aizen-Sama]

 

Misinterpreting

Naomi left the FBI because she wanted, for the sake of creating a family at the USA

It's not like Penber obligated her

 

 

It's cannon though

 

The series is not really sexist

 

 

 

On the hand of people who like to claim sexism at everything

 

 

 

 

Not talking about Bakuman, but Death Note

 

 

 

In death note not all female characters are driven by love

That's mainly for Misa and Takada who are manipulated by Light

 

Besides

You didn't answer my question about Raye being killed early not being sexist huh?

 

Anyway I'm done with this, I'm tired of people trying to find sexism in everything

 

1. Yes, Naomi left the FBI because she wanted to but that doesn't change the fact that Raye urged her to because he wanted her to have kids.

2.  The light novel may be canon but not every person who reads the Death Note manga is going to read it.

3. Actually all of the main female characters in DN are driven by love.  Misa for Light, Takada for Light, Naomi for Raye, even Rem for MIsa.  Halle also seems to have a close relationship with Mello. 

4. Raye being killed off is not sexism. 

5. No offense dude, I thought we were just having an intellectual debate. xD  It's important to question everything.

 

Anyway, back on Sakura topic.  I would blame her if she was a real person but she is just a fictional character created by a mangaka who thinks that women can't move on from old loves.

[Nar123]

 
1. Yes, Naomi left the FBI because she wanted to but that doesn't change the fact that Raye urged her to because he wanted her to have kids.
2.  The light novel may be canon but not every person who reads the Death Note manga is going to read it.
3. Actually all of the main female characters in DN are driven by love.  Misa for Light, Takada for Light, Naomi for Raye, even Rem for MIsa.  Halle also seems to have a close relationship with Mello. 
4. Raye being killed off is not sexism. 
5. No offense dude, I thought we were just having an intellectual debate. xD  It's important to question everything.
 
Anyway, back on Sakura topic.  I would blame her if she was a real person but she is just a fictional character created by a mangaka who thinks that women can't move on from old loves.

I like debating a lot, but this whole sexism thing is just tiring and annoying, people who want to see something as sexist even if such thing really isn't, will just find someway to warp it and say it was sexist anyway *sigh*

[Aizen-Sama]

I like debating a lot, but this whole sexism thing is just tiring and annoying, people who want to see something as sexist even if such thing really isn't, will just find someway to warp it and say it was sexist anyway *sigh*

 

I don't want to see Death Note as sexist, believe me, I think it's one of the most entertaining shows. xD  There was a time when I denied it but reading the manga it's obvious as daylight to me.  You may not see it as sexist but there are others who will interpret the quotes for what they are.  I'm also disappointed because Misa had the potential to be as diabolical as Light and smart as L but she was reduced to being a tool and a joke sort of love interest.

[trang95]

Because shounen manga is sexist with the exception of FMA.

What the hell did this thread turn into...? Shouldn't this be moved into another thread titled "Sexualization/ Fanservive in Mangas"? When it comes to fanservice, I just tend to swallow or ignore it b/c I've grown accustomed to it. Like I always said- I'm ok with fanservice as long as the body proportions are kept realistic (which they are not many times). Anyways, you could maybe try out Magi (the manga) or Gintama.

Edited by trang95, 15 May 2015 - 02:19 PM.

[AHK]

Having perfect God-like bodies is not the same thing as being sexually objectified.  Shounen is a genre directed at teenage boys, are you seriously trying to argue that the male characters are ripped and being sexually objectified for the sexual pleasure of the male audience?     It's the female characters that get all the raunchy fanservice because it's a boys' manga.  There's nothing wrong with that but it does turn off a lot of female readers, which is why I say FMA is one of the most girl-friendly shounens because it refrains from sexually objectifying its female characters despite being targeted at teenage boys.
And yeah. Orihime has been showing eating a hotdog in a suggestive way on one of the Bleach DVD covers.  I don't really care about it, I'm just using it to prove my point that female characters get more fanserviced in shounen that male characters.

It is sexual objectification when you consider the fact that most if not all male character, in Naruto for instance, are shredded, thin, lithe etc, and there's no equal representation of any other body type. You act like males are the only people that read shonen, and that the writers operate under that assumption. There are a lot of female readers of shounen, please tell me how you think one might attempt to attract female readers? Unless you believe that males are pigs and are only attracted to shounen because of the female representation within those mangas themselves, and that females can't be held to the same standard.

Part of the reason that there's never an average looking, out of shape MC is because they want to attract females to the series. You argue about how men aren't sexualized, yet why are you attracted to Itachi, for instance, when he apparently was never actively sexualized? Sasuke's rabid fanbase, and pretty much all of the disgusting SS fandom, drool over how sasuke looks. The constant body type of males in Naruto is sexist because it sends the societal message that that's how men are supposed to look, and that attractive women will only be interested in men that resemble those types. The disproportionate representation of body types in regards to skinny/fat, as well as how Choji was fat shamed constantly, supports this. But, as you have shown yourself, no one sees it because they're men, so no one cares. The only type of fanservice that exists is fanservice that exploits females apparently

Anyway, the only reason I got into this was basically to say that your claim of all shounen being sexist is utterly false, especially when there are titles that address the position of women, such as One Piece (the role of women is actually and active subplot, and I respect Oda for it), and for all the things you claimed about shounen sexism being fanservice are just as equally applicable to males, because that's the truth. Naruto is sexist, that is true. Naruto is sexist to both men and women equally, that is true. But Naruto doesn't equal the entire shounen industry, and it isn't an accurate gauge of the industry, and to say that all shounen are sexist towards females is ridiculous, and to say that men aren't equally as "exploited" is even more ridiculous.

But back to the topic, Sakura deserves every ounce of hate and blame she gets, she's accountable for her actions.

[AHK]

Misinterpreting
Naomi left the FBI because she wanted, for the sake of creating a family at the USA
It's not like Penber obligated her
 

 
It's cannon though
 
The series is not really sexist
 
 

 
On the hand of people who like to claim sexism at everything
 
 
 

 
Not talking about Bakuman, but Death Note
 
 

 
In death note not all female characters are driven by love
That's mainly for Misa and Takada who are manipulated by Light
 
Besides
You didn't answer my question about Raye being killed early not being sexist huh?
 
Anyway I'm done with this, I'm tired of people trying to find sexism in everything

Agreed.

Edited by AHK, 15 May 2015 - 03:07 PM.

[Aizen-Sama]

When it comes to fanservice, I just tend to swallow or ignore it b/c I've grown accustomed to it. Like I always said- I'm ok with fanservice as long as the body proportions are kept realistic (which they are not many times). Anyways, you could maybe try out Magi (the manga) or Gintama.

 

Yeah I mostly don't care about fanservice in manga, I was only talking about it since AHK's trying to argue that male characters get as sexually fanserviced as female characters in shonen manga which is a bunch of BS.  I certainly didn't want this thread to have gotten so off-topic, I'm only replying to all the posts I'm getting. 

 

 

It is sexual objectification when you consider the fact that most if not all male character, in Naruto for instance, are shredded, thin, lithe etc, and there's no equal representation of any other body type. You act like males are the only people that read shonen, and that the writers operate under that assumption. There are a lot of female readers of shounen, please tell me how you think one might attempt to attract female readers? Unless you believe that males are pigs and are only attracted to shounen because of the female representation within those manga themselves, and that females can't be held to the same standard.

Part of the reason that there's never an average looking, out of shape MC is because they want to attract females to the series. You argue about how men aren't sexualized, yet why are you attracted to Itachi, for instance, when he apparently was never actively sexualized? Sasuke's rabid fanbase, and pretty much all of the disgusting SS fandom, drool over how sasuke looks. The constant body type of males in Naruto is sexist because it sends the societal message that that's how men are supposed to look, and that attractive women will only be interested in men that resemble those types. The disproportionate representation of body types in regards to skinny/fat, as well as how Choji was fat shamed constantly, supports this. But, as you have shown yourself, no one sees it because they're men, so no one cares. The only type of fanservice that exists is fanservice that exploits females apparently

Anyway, the only reason I got into this was basically to say that your claim of all shounen being sexist is utterly false, especially when there are titles that address the position of women, such as One Piece (the role of women is actually and active subplot, and I respect Oda for it), and for all the things you claimed about shounen sexism being fanservice are just as equally applicable to males, because that's the truth. Naruto is sexist, that is true. Naruto is

sexist to both men and women equally, that is true. But Naruto doesn't equal the entire shounen industry, and it isn't an accurate gauge of the industry, and to say that all shounen are sexist towards females is ridiculous, and to say that men aren't equally as "exploited" is even more ridiculous.

But back to the topic, Sakura deserves every ounce of hate and blame she gets, she's accountable for her actions.

 

The physical appearance of a character is not the same thing as them being put into a sexual situation, is that so hard for you to understand?  Are you seriously trying to argue that the simple fact that Naruto is skinny means he is as sexually objectified as Hinata?  Your claim about "all" the male characters being skinny is false since there are guys like Choji, Chouzaka, etc. who are fat.  There are also girls like Chou Chou who are fat.  All this is completely irrelevant because I'm not criticizing the way the characters look, I'm criticizing the fanservice they're put in.   Please understand this. 

Shounen manga is targeted at teenage boys, this is a fact.  You claim that the reason all the guys in shonen manga have muscles and are skinny is because shonen is targeted at girls?    Has it ever occurred to you that the heroes are big and strong just to appeal to boys?  Going by your logic that shonen writers target girls just as much as boys, shouldn't there be more main female characters in shonen manga to appeal to its supposed female audience?  There isn't because the main target is boys.

And no, i don't think "all males are pigs", how dare you tell me that, especially when there are things like the anime and porn industry who seem to think that very thing by creating its otaku porn and adding pointless perverted fanservice for its male audience.  Why don't you tell them they think "all males are pigs" instead of me? 

I take back my claim about "all shounen manga being sexist".  That was an exaggerated and hasty judgement.  However I don't take back my words about the fanservice in shounen manga being mostly for boys because it's true, since the main target of shonen is teenage boys.  The writers may add some fanservice for its girl-readers through bishies and shirtless moments etc. but the fact remains that the main target of shonen manga is still boys and they will get most of the fanservice.

I agree, mangas like One Piece and Bleach have some strong female characters, how does pointless boob fanservice connect to that?  I think Oda and Kubo are great with gender equality, I was only claiming Naruto and Death Note to be sexist. 

And no, men aren't as "equally exploited" as women in shonen manga or in real life.  Look at the porn industry, anime porn industry, internet, and human trafficking for that.  Men are sexually exploited, but not as much as women.

If you'd like to discuss our misunderstanding some more come to the [topic='http://www.narusaku....c=14939&page=18']Off-Topic thread[/topic]

 

Also Sakura is a fictional character, she is not "held accountable for all her actions" because she is not real.  It is Kishimoto who created and wrote her that way.  I also don't believe she deserves "every ounce of hate" she gets because despite her ending she still had some likeable and credible moments in Shippuden.  The terrible ending that Kishimoto gave her doesn't erase all that.

Edited by Aizen-Sama, 15 May 2015 - 06:58 PM.

[griff142]

You can't blame Sakura. Aizen-Sama is right because she is not real and how she turns out is how creative the writer adds to her character which he failed at. Also it is like blaming a dog for biting you when the owner taught it to kill things and be aggressive to everything. Sakura was a victim like everybody else maybe the most victimized out of all of the characters

[AHK]

Yeah I mostly don't care about fanservice in manga, I was only talking about it since AHK's trying to argue that male characters get as sexually fanserviced as female characters in shonen manga which is a bunch of BS.  I certainly didn't want this thread to have gotten so off-topic, I'm only replying to all the posts I'm getting. 

 
The physical appearance of a character is not the same thing as them being put into a sexual situation, is that so hard for you to understand?  Are you seriously trying to argue that the simple fact that Naruto is skinny means he is as sexually objectified as Hinata?  Your claim about "all" the male characters being skinny is false since there are guys like Choji, Chouzaka, etc. who are fat.  There are also girls like Chou Chou who are fat.  All this is completely irrelevant because I'm not criticizing the way the characters look, I'm criticizing the fanservice they're put in.   Please understand this. 
Shounen manga is targeted at teenage boys, this is a fact.  You claim that the reason all the guys in shonen manga have muscles and are skinny is because shonen is targeted at girls?    Has it ever occurred to you that the heroes are big and strong just to appeal to boys?  Going by your logic that shonen writers target girls just as much as boys, shouldn't there be more main female characters in shonen manga to appeal to its supposed female audience?  There isn't because the main target is boys.
And no, i don't think "all males are pigs", how dare you tell me that, especially when there are things like the anime and porn industry who seem to think that very thing by creating its otaku porn and adding pointless perverted fanservice for its male audience.  Why don't you tell them they think "all males are pigs" instead of me? 
I take back my claim about "all shounen manga being sexist".  That was an exaggerated and hasty judgement.  However I don't take back my words about the fanservice in shounen manga being mostly for boys because it's true, since the main target of shonen is teenage boys.  The writers may add some fanservice for its girl-readers through bishies and shirtless moments etc. but the fact remains that the main target of shonen manga is still boys and they will get most of the fanservice.
I agree, mangas like One Piece and Bleach have some strong female characters, how does pointless boob fanservice connect to that?  I think Oda and Kubo are great with gender equality, I was only claiming Naruto and Death Note to be sexist. 
And no, men aren't as "equally exploited" as women in shonen manga or in real life.  Look at the porn industry, anime porn industry, internet, and human trafficking for that.  Men are sexually exploited, but not as much as women.
If you'd like to discuss our misunderstanding some more come to the [topic='http://www.narusaku....c=14939&page=18']Off-Topic thread[/topic]
 
Also Sakura is a fictional character, she is not "held accountable for all her actions" because she is not real.  It is Kishimoto who created and wrote her that way.  I also don't believe she deserves "every ounce of hate" she gets because despite her ending she still had some likeable and credible moments in Shippuden.  The terrible ending that Kishimoto gave her doesn't erase all that.

Fanservice is based primarily off of looks. Your complaints about Nami were that she had big breasts, but she herself hasn't been put in any sexual situations, yet you claim that because she has big breasts, she's being sexually exploited.

Next, I didn't say all as in all, I meant it as the majority. Cool story, you can name 2 fat men in Naruto. Do you want to know how many other fat people you can name? 2. The guy that trained Kisame, and the guy that helped escort Sasuke from the lead in part one. That is 4 peoe out of an entire population of men that are fat, and one of those people, Choji, was subjected to fat shaming because of the belief that men shouldn't be fat, there was a continual expression that men had to be these lithe, powerful beings. Choji was even subjected to thinking that He couldn't find a woman who liked him because he was fat.

Yes, but males don't make up the entire fanbase. I didn't say that Shonen targets girls, I said that it tries to expand and appeal its female base by presenting them with attractive characters, the same as it does for males, but no one talks about it, because the presentation of males means nothing next to the presentation of females, because only female misrepresentation matters nowadays

Um, I think you should reread that, I didn't say that you believe all males are pigs, I said "unless you believe...", so all of that is irrelevant to me tbh, guess that was a misunderstanding?

Honestly, I don't care enough to take it to another thread, whatever, I'm done anyway. I said my piece, but I hate discussions like this. The fact that I find myself in these discussions astounds me.

Within the context of the story, sakura deserves blame and reasonable hate. Her likable moments were part of her development, which was scrapped in the end. She went back on her development, so her moments in Shippuden are null and void before the ending.

[Aizen-Sama]

Fanservice is based primarily off of looks. Your complaints about Nami were that she had big breasts, but she herself hasn't been put in any sexual situations, yet you claim that because she has big breasts, she's being sexually exploited.

Next, I didn't say all as in all, I meant it as the majority. Cool story, you can name 2 fat men in Naruto. Do you want to know how many other fat people you can name? 2. The guy that trained Kisame, and the guy that helped escort Sasuke from the lead in part one. That is 4 peoe out of an entire population of men that are fat, and one of those people, Choji, was subjected to fat shaming because of the belief that men shouldn't be fat, there was a continual expression that men had to be these lithe, powerful beings. Choji was even subjected to thinking that He couldn't find a woman who liked him because he was fat.

Yes, but males don't make up the entire fanbase. I didn't say that Shonen targets girls, I said that it tries to expand and appeal its female base by presenting them with attractive characters, the same as it does for males, but no one talks about it, because the presentation of males means nothing next to the presentation of females, because only female misrepresentation matters nowadays

Um, I think you should reread that, I didn't say that you believe all males are pigs, I said "unless you believe...", so all of that is irrelevant to me tbh, guess that was a misunderstanding?

Honestly, I don't care enough to take it to another thread, whatever, I'm done anyway. I said my piece, but I hate discussions like this. The fact that I find myself in these discussions astounds me.

Within the context of the story, sakura deserves blame and reasonable hate. Her likable moments were part of her development, which was scrapped in the end. She went back on her development, so her moments in Shippuden are null and void before the ending.

 

Dude I asked you to reply to the [post='http://www.narusaku....c=14939&page=18']Off-Topic Thread[/post] but since you said you're done I'll just leave my answer here.

I never said Nami having big boobs meant she was being sexually exploited, don't put words in my mouth.  What I define as "fanservice" is not a character having a hot body but said character being put into a sexually suggestive situation or pose.  There is nothing wrong with Nami's breasts, I was talking about moments where they're made jokes of such as when Usopp's nose was rubbed in between them.  That is meant to be perverted and while there is nothing wrong with that it does get tiring when done excessively and anime fans have a right to complain about it.

So there are only about 5 fat male characters in Naruto, what's your point?  How does this relate to fanservice and sexual objectification?  There's only one fat female character in the original series and that's the cat lady.  As for Chouji saying girls don't like fat guys, yes that's shallow and sexist but Konohomaru also made a joke about fat girls when his failed sexy justu showed a fat girl instead of a skinny one.  Again, this is Kishimoto's own sexist views towards both genders, it doesn't prove that female characters are more fanserviced than male characters in shounen.  You also just said that Naruto is sexist and doesn't represent all shounen and yet you're using examples from it?

You just said in your last post that male characters are as "equally exploited" in shounen as female characters, how can that be when you admit that the genre is still targeted primarily at guys?  The larger audience will get more fanservice.  Yes, many shounen authors are trying to gain female readers and occasionally add sparse amounts of fanservice for the girls but the fact remains that the guys still get more fanservice because it's a freaking guys' manga.  And that's perfectly okay, I'm only saying that it's going to turn off a lot of female readers yet you seem to find a problem with that.

And no, I don't think that female representation matters more or that male representation doesn't.  They are both equally important which is why I criticize things like Orihime getting her boobs mauled by Yoruichi for the pleasure of fans while nothing of the sort ever happens to Ichigo.  Not that I want it too, but things like that bugs some readers.

Also, please don't use that cookie monster icon with me, it's a cheap way of trying to win an argument and I don't appreciate the condescending tone.

That's great, I don't feel like discussing this anymore either and am glad we won't have to take it to another thread.  Let's agree to disagree.     No hard feelings meant. 

 

As I said before, I think it's dumb to hate a fictional character when it's the author who made her that way despite knowing that a realistic girl would act differently  I also don't agree that simply because her ending was terrible, all her prior cool moments from Shippuden were "scrapped" and that they don't matter anymore.  If so, why are so many people on here still NS fans who like Sakura?

 

 

You can't blame Sakura. Aizen-Sama is right because she is not real and how she turns out is how creative the writer adds to her character which he failed at. Also it is like blaming a dog for biting you when the owner taught it to kill things and be aggressive to everything. Sakura was a victim like everybody else maybe the most victimized out of all of the characters

 

Yeah, Naruto got a bad ending, and Sasuke got an empty one but I think Sakura takes the cake in worst situational ending ever.  I get mad at her sometimes for choosing Sasuke but at the end of the day I know it's just what SP, Kishimoto, and most of the fans wanted.

[Pix]

Why does it seem to be such a thing in shonen to give female characters such exaggerated traits to the point that a majority of the fanbase cannot look past that even if they actually do have more to their character?

 

In any case, yeah...Kishi reversed a lot of Sakura's development by making SS canon. To me the solution is simple: 699/700 and the new era project is a lie. I pretend they never happened and I can still love Sakura for what she could have been.

It's really not "exaggerated traits". It's how the audience views them. Female characters are judged more harshly than male characters, specifically in shounen. And part of that has to do with the underdevelopment of women characters. That's why their main trait seems more "exaggerated". 

 

I've got a simple question about fanservice: Why can't women be awesome and sexy as hell while doing so, and not be judged by their body image? Whether they're Big-boobed or fat

Because authors usually don't know how to portray that. Instead they're from a viewpoint where the said character is either getting panty shots or outright molested in-story. A pro sex-positive character would be more on the lines of being confident in her body while also showing more depth to her character. Like I've said, the issue is that most female characters are just underdeveloped. 

[ultranx]

 

I don't mind at all.  You're right -- it is Yurei.

 

 

Yeah, I know I haven't updated in a long time.  Lots of reasons why, but mainly health problems dogging me.  However, I still hope to update both Wilderness and my Gaara fic.  I want to finish both stories with the characters and their futures as I imagined them.

 

The only other fandom I've written for is Harry Potter.  

 

Thanks for asking, Codus. 

I really love your wilderness fic, I really hope you're able to continue it ^_^

Edited by ultranx, 27 August 2015 - 10:48 AM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

I swear, the whole sexist is Shounen or whatever sounds like an excuse to defend Naruto.

[KnS]

I really love your wilderness fic, I really hope you're able to continue it ^_^

 

Thanks for saying this.  I know it's been a long time, and even longer for my Gaara fic, but I do still hope to continue.  I just need the time and good health to make some progress.

 

It helps to know people still think about Wilderness and would like to see it updated. 

[ultranx]

 

Thanks for saying this.  I know it's been a long time, and even longer for my Gaara fic, but I do still hope to continue.  I just need the time and good health to make some progress.

 

It helps to know people still think about Wilderness and would like to see it updated. 

no problem, I hope things work out for you ^_^ I know I haven't reviewed much on it but that's because I once tried reviewing a story, think it was a dbz one, and the author gave me a hard time for just making a review saying I liked their story, so I can't review just because I'm not good at being a critic? so yeah there's that that made me not like doing reviews much and then there's the fact I don't usually have  time to write reviews and forget about it. so yeah...xD I'll try to be more vocal though

 

edit: darn chrome switching the tab I'm on xD

Edited by ultranx, 27 August 2015 - 01:19 PM.