441 replies to this topic

[Weltall]

I was refering to the aspect you disagree with the views, you're using benefit of doubt to go against manga facts.And that i dislike, it destroy the debate and impoverish it, you're forcing a subjective view with no manga proof and using a special kind of logic that only you see it and doesnt care about the consequences of it like it can even be used to negate NaruSaku itself, just as a heads up.The logic you used ot go against is so out of place that it can be used to negate Naruto's feelings for Sakura, put Sakura on the same level of Madara in terms of "power level", show that NH will end up together and etc...i'm not going to move forward on your debate until you prove the two aspects that initiated that, first that Naruto was wrong when he said that he was weaker than Sasuke and that Sasuke implied he was weaker than Naruto thus being the reason for him to get a power up.I'm going to stop here, i wont keep arguing over manga facts, i'll just agree to disagree and i wont respond to any posts of this matter.

But Naruto never stated he was weaker than Sasuke, these aren't manga facts not only that but many translations contradict what was said there but as I said belive what you want.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

What I say doesn't go against manga facts, not the way I see it. But as I said I'm not looking to change anyone's opinion. You're the one who took it too personally that I had a different view and that I was "destroying the debate".

Atheck bought up two facts "Naruto is weaker than Sasuke" with a page that i provided and you simply came in and "show me a panel of Naruto and Sasuke fighting against each other to make this conclusion".
As a counterargument.
 

Naruto's admittance is his own, and how we choose to see it is our own opinion. You believe what you want, but until an actual fight is shown there's no way to tell how it would exactly go down. That's canonical.

You kill the debate right here.
And this is what i'm referencing and how this all started.

This is what i called fallacy the fact you demanded a panel proof of a Naruto vs Sasuke battle to negate Naruto's admittance.
 

But Naruto never stated he was weaker than Sasuke, these aren't manga facts not only that but many translations contradict what was said there but as I said belive what you want.

You changed the interpretation of that scene saying that Naruto could not beat Sasuke blinded and weakened at that state, and used it to negate basically everything.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 26 December 2013 - 05:25 PM.

[Atheck]

Naruto wanted Kurama's power to defeat Sasuke and Sasuke wanted Itachi's eyes just so he could defeat Naruto while prior to his meeting with Naruto he always refused to take Itachi's eyes, and for Sasuke to make such a drastic decision he must have realized MS alone wouldn't be enough,.

It's perfectly reasonable to accept Naruto's words for what they are but at the same time you can't ignore Sasuke's own words and reactions, it works both ways both tought they wouldn't be strong enough to defeat the other one without a power up.

There's several conflicting factors with Sasuke's choice to implant Itachi's eyes.

1. When he made his initial decision to not go through with the operation, he was basing it upon symbolical and moral reasons. He believed that by rejecting Itachi's eyes, he was following his own path rather than "seeing" what Itachi wanted him to "see". That was when he still had moral parameters. The possible threat that Naruto presented to his ambitions never crossed his mind.

In contrast, the Sasuke who finally came to the decision that he would use Itachi's eyes had sunken to such a harsh level of moral degeneracy that nothing was off limits to him. That includes indiscriminate killing and the exploitation of anything that seemed advantageous to him. He was still acting with the intention of avenging his fallen clan members, but it had evolved into total war in his mind.

2. When Tobi questioned what his reasons were for reconsidering the procedure, Sasuke's responce was, "I want to destroy Naruto with my full powers. That's the only way to reject everything that he stands for."

If you closely examine the meaning of Sasuke's words, he seems to be referring to absolute victory. In other words, he wants to hold such an overwhelming and compelling advantage over Naruto that there is no misunderstanding about who is the greater shinobi and person.

Sasuke chose to implant Itachi's eyes because he wants to humiliate Naruto. Not that he wasn't already stronger as Naruto admitted he was. It's one of those little ironies in the manga. Sasuke chooses to become stronger out of principal, whereas Naruto becomes stronger due to necessity (for this specific battle at least). It's in keeping with Kishi's whole concept of Naruto being the underdog and Sasuke being the gifted genius.

[redragon88]

Atheck bought up two facts "Naruto is weaker than Sasuke" with a page that i provided and you simply came in and "show me a panel of Naruto and Sasuke fighting against each other to make this conclusion".
As a counterargument.
 
You kill the debate right here

 

No, I didn't kill the debate because there wasn't any in the first place. You made it into a debate, and because I don't share your views that's a problem with you. I stand by my statement, and no matter how times you insist I won't change my mind, so how about you just move on.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

No, I didn't kill the debate because there wasn't any in the first place. You made it into a debate, and because I don't share your views that's a problem with you. I stand by my statement, and no matter how times you insist I won't change my mind, so how about you just move on.

Atheck is one of the few people who enjoy healthy debate on this site, the type of claims like i showed kills it, someome brings manga fact and panel proof and then people come with "show me a manga panel of Naruto vs Sasuke" to counter Naruto's words.

I agree to move on obviously but i'm disappointed not by the fact with "agree to disagree or whatever" but to have in mind that it's impossible to have debates here with those kind of things being pulled in.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 26 December 2013 - 05:38 PM.

[Inferno180]

 

Nicely put. Respect is the key to good debate. Not who has the last word. 

 

 

 

You know, I read that too, and I wonder if it's entirely true. (Of course there'd be no way of knowing....) But I wonder if it's something he says to keep people guessing and to put off pressing questions. If he just says he's as befuddled as the fans, he sidesteps all of that. People won't ask him leading questions, and he won't inadvertently spoil anything. 

 

Well maybe he does know, obviously not going to spoil anything but as far as the universe goes, Madara is unstoppable.

 

Sharigan powers to counter any other sharigan powers

Rinnegan to negate chakra hitting him

Rinnegan granting all base natures

Rinnegan granting the six path powers and control over the gedo mazu

Senju wood style to control and supress the tailed beasts

Sussano (enhanced and even able to use without eyes, madara that hacker)

Hashirama's sage mode to use natural energy and defend against it too (something Obito couldnt do)

Hashirama's auto healing powers, so even if he is nailed from physical powers, he is just going to heal.

 

The only weakness I can think he has is if they take out the hashirama clone imbeeded in his chest first, if they remove the hashirama clone then they have a chance, its a case if they can destroy the thing that lets him regenerate and also if kishi makes this follow the old clause of regeneration powers, this is sort of how it goes from super powers wiki and many other forms in other series:

 

If there is a regeneration power, its provided by either a whole form or limited form, such as one part of the body. And in other cases, if its limited, generally the regeneator cannot regenerate themselves.

 

Whole examples would be

Wolverine from Marvel, its his own power to just heal himself

Cell  and Majinn buu from Dragonball Z they could heal entirely, even reform on very small scales if blasted apart

Slimes, changlings, and various other classic mythical creatures in rpg games like final fantasy or world of warcraft

The necromorph from Dead Space

Some BOWs from Resident Evil like Uroboros

Katsuyu from Naruto

Buggy the Clown from One Piece (sort of)

The Flood from Halo

Hashirama from Naruto

 

These are generally guys that either reform by themselves healing wounds or are capable of even rebuilding themselves entirely if blown apart. Our favorite slug Katsuyu can do this too.  In the case of rebuilding, its sometimes a tactical ability in combat too, sometimes to split up and divert the whole entity to other purposes, buggy in this case, his devil fruit power lets him split up. generally in the case of splitting up and reforming, its not always oriented at healing, but in most cases it is. Generally there are limits. Wolverine and Hashirama in this case, they can heal as long as they have the energy and stamina, even wolverine has a limit to his healing, overusing it in this case causes the hayflick limit, a common weakness to self healers. Others, they are depentent on limited sources, sometimes externally for healing or building themselves back. The Flood and Necromorphs need living organic bodies to heal and keep going, without them they cannot do much. They are limited by whatever bodies they take and any biomass they accumulate.

 

The limited type of regeneration though, its generally provided by a certain "part or piece" in that the healing organ or object is able to heal anything but has a limit (not always) and generally cannot heal itself (though there have been times when it could)

 

Some in this case include:

The Regenerator from Resident evil 4

Madara himself with Hashiramas clone

the titans from attack on titan

Uqliorra from Bleach

 

Basically weakspots, the regenerator in RE4 was a tough enemy unless you had a certain scope. The creature was a mass of flesh built and held together by 3-5 parasites. The parasites would stich it back together quickly no matter what was blown away. The parasites could not heal themselves or each other though. Without them the regenerator falls apart. The titans from attack on titan are a very good example, they can regenerate anything even their whole heads, but not their neck napes, if that gets cut, they die, the regenerator cannot regenerate themselves. Remember this one? Uqliorra from Bleach? Espada number 4, had a second mode past his release, he could regenerate anything expect his brain so if he was struck in the head, he would die. His brain was the regenerator. Now look at naruto, Madara is currently in this group. His hashirama clone heals him so if it gets struck hard physically, such as with a blade, it may stop his regeneration. Otherwise Kishi may bypass this and make it so the regenerator can regenerate itself, there have been rare cases. Usually in this case, the when the regenerator can heal itself if its a specific part, then the only way it can be destoryed is by overloading it, too many wounds on itself and elsewhere otherwise another power comes to stop that.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

 

Well maybe he does know, obviously not going to spoil anything but as far as the universe goes, Madara is unstoppable.

 

Sharigan powers to counter any other sharigan powers

Rinnegan to negate chakra hitting him

Rinnegan granting all base natures

Rinnegan granting the six path powers and control over the gedo mazu

Senju wood style to control and supress the tailed beasts

Sussano (enhanced and even able to use without eyes, madara that hacker)

Hashirama's sage mode to use natural energy and defend against it too (something Obito couldnt do)

Hashirama's auto healing powers, so even if he is nailed from physical powers, he is just going to heal.

 

The only weakness I can think he has is if they take out the hashirama clone imbeeded in his chest first, if they remove the hashirama clone then they have a chance, its a case if they can destroy the thing that lets him regenerate and also if kishi makes this follow the old clause of regeneration powers, this is sort of how it goes from super powers wiki and many other forms in other series:

 

If there is a regeneration power, its provided by either a whole form or limited form, such as one part of the body. And in other cases, if its limited, generally the regeneator cannot regenerate themselves.

 

Whole examples would be

Wolverine from Marvel, its his own power to just heal himself

Cell  and Majinn buu from Dragonball Z they could heal entirely, even reform on very small scales if blasted apart

Slimes, changlings, and various other classic mythical creatures in rpg games like final fantasy or world of warcraft

The necromorph from Dead Space

Some BOWs from Resident Evil like Uroboros

Katsuyu from Naruto

Buggy the Clown from One Piece (sort of)

The Flood from Halo

Hashirama from Naruto

 

These are generally guys that either reform by themselves healing wounds or are capable of even rebuilding themselves entirely if blown apart. Our favorite slug Katsuyu can do this too.  In the case of rebuilding, its sometimes a tactical ability in combat too, sometimes to split up and divert the whole entity to other purposes, buggy in this case, his devil fruit power lets him split up. generally in the case of splitting up and reforming, its not always oriented at healing, but in most cases it is. Generally there are limits. Wolverine and Hashirama in this case, they can heal as long as they have the energy and stamina, even wolverine has a limit to his healing, overusing it in this case causes the hayflick limit, a common weakness to self healers. Others, they are depentent on limited sources, sometimes externally for healing or building themselves back. The Flood and Necromorphs need living organic bodies to heal and keep going, without them they cannot do much. They are limited by whatever bodies they take and any biomass they accumulate.

 

The limited type of regeneration though, its generally provided by a certain "part or piece" in that the healing organ or object is able to heal anything but has a limit (not always) and generally cannot heal itself (though there have been times when it could)

 

Some in this case include:

The Regenerator from Resident evil 4

Madara himself with Hashiramas clone

the titans from attack on titan

Uqliorra from Bleach

 

Basically weakspots, the regenerator in RE4 was a tough enemy unless you had a certain scope. The creature was a mass of flesh built and held together by 3-5 parasites. The parasites would stich it back together quickly no matter what was blown away. The parasites could not heal themselves or each other though. Without them the regenerator falls apart. The titans from attack on titan are a very good example, they can regenerate anything even their whole heads, but not their neck napes, if that gets cut, they die, the regenerator cannot regenerate themselves. Remember this one? Uqliorra from Bleach? Espada number 4, had a second mode past his release, he could regenerate anything expect his brain so if he was struck in the head, he would die. His brain was the regenerator. Now look at naruto, Madara is currently in this group. His hashirama clone heals him so if it gets struck hard physically, such as with a blade, it may stop his regeneration. Otherwise Kishi may bypass this and make it so the regenerator can regenerate itself, there have been rare cases. Usually in this case, the when the regenerator can heal itself if its a specific part, then the only way it can be destoryed is by overloading it, too many wounds on itself and elsewhere otherwise another power comes to stop that.

I think like this Inferno i think the fact that Kishimoto doesnt know how to beat Madara is that he hasnt showed any weakness on Madara, he seemed to be able to counter everything and now that he has the ultimate power with Senju + uchiha.

 

He has a high regeneration, huge chakra spam, can absorb jutsus, has rinnegan, has susano'o, has genjutsu has rinnegan jutsus and etc...

In fact it's like there's nothing capable of beating him.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 26 December 2013 - 05:46 PM.

[redragon88]

Atheck is one of the few people who enjoy healthy debate on this site, the type of claims like i showed kills it, someome brings manga fact and panel proof and then people come with "show me a manga panel of Naruto vs Sasuke" to counter Naruto's words.

I agree to move on obviously but i'm disappointed not by the fact with "agree to disagree or whatever" but to have in mind that it's impossible to have debates here with those kind of things being pulled in.

 

If I wanted to truly debate I'd be trying to prove him wrong in his statements. What he says can have validity, but I just see things differently. I'm not interested in trying to convert people to my views, I just wanted to mention my opinion. That was all.

 

Can we leave it at that?

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

 

If I wanted to truly debate I'd be trying to prove him wrong in his statements. What he says can have validity, but I just see things differently. I'm not interested in trying to convert people to my views, I just wanted to mention my opinion. That was all.

 

Can we leave it at that?

You really think that debate is just to prove someome wrong?

Debate has to do with share ideas, what Atheck said simply stated manga facts to show his point of view, but you said something illogic to turn down not Atheck's point but a manga panel, you negated Naruto's quote with demanding manga panel of his fight with Sasuke at that point.

I wasnt trying to argue over you point of view but i just got mad at the fact you used that to negate a manga fact, when it could be used to negate any manga panel, even chapter 3.

 

You and I are ending respective post with this, i assume you wont answer anymore and if you want PM'me.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 26 December 2013 - 06:30 PM.

[redragon88]

You really think that debate is just to prove someome wrong?

Debate has to do with share ideas, what Atheck said simply stated manga facts to show his point of view, but you said something illogic to turn down not Atheck's point but a manga panel, you negated Naruto's quote with demanding manga panel of his fight with Sasuke at that point.

I wasnt trying to argue over you point of view but i just got mad at the fact you used that to negate a manga fact, when it could be used to negate any manga panel, even chapter 3.

 

You and I are ending respective post with this, i assume you wont answer anymore and if you want PM'me.

 

A debate is not just sharing ideas, that's just talking. You're the one who views what I say as illogic, that's on you. I see nothing I said as going against manga fact, but that's my perspective and you're allowed to have yours.

 

I see nothing wrong with wanting the fight to happen in order to detemine the outcome, and I'm not changing my mind about it. I think you're wrong, and I'll continue to think you're wrong.

 

I'm not interested in talking further, but if you want to insist that the things I say are wrong I'll just keep answering the same: I stand by what I say and I'm not changing my mind. You can have your opinion and I'll have mine.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

A debate is not just sharing ideas, that's just talking. You're the one who views what I say as illogic, that's on you. I see nothing I said as going against manga fact, but that's my perspective and you're allowed to have yours.

You dont even read my posts, you used of a fallacy to counter a manga fact, i didnt tried to prove your views wrong i just pointed out how stupid is using those kind of stuff to sustain an argument, and i focused specifically on that not your views.
When that can be used on every kind of situation to counter it and i showed it.
 

I see nothing wrong with wanting the fight to happen in order to detemine the outcome, and I'm not changing my mind about it. I think you're wrong, and I'll continue to think you're wrong.

Then you should not have answered Atheck's post to counter what he said you didnt just stick with your point of view but countered with his argument with that, that's your problem and with that you killed the debate.
"I see nothing wrong with wanting the fight to happen in order to detemine the outcome"
Nope you demanded a panel of Naruto x Sasuke fight to counter his argument and prove him wrong.

I'm not interested in talking further, but if you want to insist that the things I say are wrong I'll just keep answering the same: I stand by what I say and I'm not changing my mind. You can have your opinion and I'll have mine.

Neither I, i told you to PM'ed me and you keep baiting me to respond and end up on a cicle without end because you clearly wants to pass the impression that the last to post is the winner.
But i dont care because i'm gonna end this, i'll put you on my ignore list and i suggest the same.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 26 December 2013 - 07:32 PM.

[redragon88]

You dont even read my posts, you used of a fallacy to counter a manga fact, i dont care about trying to prove your views wrong i just pointed out how stupid is using those kind of stuff to sustain an argument.
When that can be used on every kind of situation to counter it and i showed it.
 
Then you should not have answered Atheck's post to counter what he said you didnt just stick with your point of view but countered with his argument with that, that's your problem and with that you killed the debate.
 You could ve just agree to disagree instead of pulling that.

 

And you couldn't care less about what I write and the intentions behind it. You're just mad that I don't share your opinion, and you just aim to keep discrediting me because of it.

 

I was just pointing out my views, but you dislike that, and insist the I kill debate just to make me look bad.

 

 

Neither I, i told you to PM'ed me and you keep baiting me to respond and end up on a cicle without end because you clearly wants to pass the impression that the last to post is the winner.
But i dont care because i'm gonna end this, i'll put you on my ignore list and i suggest the same.

 

That's rich coming from a guy who constantly keeps saying he's ending the discussion only to keep answering to satisfy his own ego. You're the one obsessed with posting last because you believe that's gonna make you be right.

 

How about you start the PM instead of telling others to do so? Like that saying goes "lead by good example", if you're even capable of it.

 

I said it back then and I'll say it again: I stand by what I say and I'm not changing my mind. You can have your opinion and I'll have mine.

[TouKen4Life3g]

One thing I want to know is what is the next step for Madara? Is it become the Jinchuuriki once again or what? It's crazy to think what's the very next step for Naruto and Madara. I do think we will get a conclusion conflict with Obito and Zetsu in the next chapter though. Yeah, I know, not a good time, but it feels like Madara needs that eye now since all is almost complete, Minato needs to be in the battlefield with that other half, if it's Kuruma's last request or not, and so on. Actually, if Minato transfer it to Naruto, Minato will stay, right? Right? I still wonder if Naruto is fine or he has become a time bomb. Again still not clear from Kushina's extraction. Three weeks. Damn, I should have waited.

[Dkey]

One thing I want to know is what is the next step for Madara? Is it become the Jinchuuriki once again or what? It's crazy to think what's the very next step for Naruto and Madara. I do think we will get a conclusion conflict with Obito and Zetsu in the next chapter though. Yeah, I know, not a good time, but it feels like Madara needs that eye now since all is almost complete, Minato needs to be in the battlefield with that other half, if it's Kuruma's last request or not, and so on. Actually, if Minato transfer it to Naruto, Minato will stay, right? Right? I still wonder if Naruto is fine or he has become a time bomb. Again still not clear from Kushina's extraction. Three weeks. Damn, I should have waited.

 

Regarding Madara it's a big question mark. What is he trying to do? the same thing Obito did. Why?

 

Maybe that rumour/info about not knowing what to do with Madara is showing right now in the story but there's also the fact that Kishi is focusing on the Bijuus this volume.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

Regarding Madara it's a big question mark. What is he trying to do? the same thing Obito did. Why?
 
Maybe that rumour/info about not knowing what to do with Madara is showing right now in the story but there's also the fact that Kishi is focusing on the Bijuus this volume.

I think too, Obito was invincible at the time even with the "power of your dreams" despite it ended on an unsatisfying manner because of the way he was defeated, he was like the peak of shinobi power because he was the juubi jinchuuriki's.

I noticed that the eight tails left behind a part of him to keep Bee alive i guess but what about Kurama did he let a portion of his chakra behind to ensure Naruto will live or fight without the hindrance of losing chakra?
 

One thing I want to know is what is the next step for Madara? Is it become the Jinchuuriki once again or what? It's crazy to think what's the very next step for Naruto and Madara. I do think we will get a conclusion conflict with Obito and Zetsu in the next chapter though. Yeah, I know, not a good time, but it feels like Madara needs that eye now since all is almost complete, Minato needs to be in the battlefield with that other half, if it's Kuruma's last request or not, and so on. Actually, if Minato transfer it to Naruto, Minato will stay, right? Right? I still wonder if Naruto is fine or he has become a time bomb. Again still not clear from Kushina's extraction. Three weeks. Damn, I should have waited.

Actually that part for me was pretty confused did he just picked up Kurama's chakra or did kurama left a part of him on Naruto, because i really dont know, Naruto's case is so weird that i didnt even knew it was possible for Kurama to be sealed like that without breaking his seal.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 26 December 2013 - 08:18 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

It feels like since Juubi didn't get all of them or rather at full capacity, does this mean it's restarted with Juubi going rampage then Jinchuuriki and so forth? Right now, I just want to know what's Naruto's status.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

It felt like he only took Kurama's chakra but what about the body?
It's very weird.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 26 December 2013 - 09:14 PM.

[BakeNeko-Chan]

Who knows.

 

In a weird way, we say we know ourselves the best and while it's true, sometimes we don't understand our own feelings or even opinion. Like you'll be like "is this what I think?" or "is this what I said?" I guess it's something that just others won't get it as much as you do. I can't really say. To each of their own.

 

I certainly was not trying to say you're wrong in feeling the way you do, so I truly hope I didn't come across that way, and I apologize if I did. My opinion and enthusiasm may pick up later, or maybe it won't, I'll just have to wait and see. But again, my intention was not I make it seem as though I was dissing your own opinions or perspective.

[TouKen4Life3g]

 
I certainly was not trying to say you're wrong in feeling the way you do, so I truly hope I didn't come across that way, and I apologize if I did. My opinion and enthusiasm may pick up later, or maybe it won't, I'll just have to wait and see. But again, my intention was not I make it seem as though I was dissing your own opinions or perspective.

Oh no. I didn't even think that. No need for it.

[TouKen4Life3g]

It felt like he only took Kurama's chakra but what about the body?
It's very weird.

Don't know, but Naruto still needs it for combat or else they're doomed. They got lucky in Obito's fight, but now it's different. I do think he took the body because he did talk to Gaara as it would seem that he was leaving Naruto.