286 replies to this topic

[六道仙人]

Funny how people are arguing about ObiRin/KakaRin and NaruSaku. But in a way, at some point, both ObiRin and KakaRin are somewhat equal to NaruSaku...

 

Lol, I found this somewhere on the web... Obito said that Rin was his only beam of light in his life... And NH are using this as another parallel proof to NH because Hinata, you know, means "Placed in the sun"

[rocci]

So who predict how much chapter left for this war arc to officially over?

I think it would take 8 to 9 chapter to finish this war.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

 

Lol, I found this somewhere on the web... Obito said that Rin was his only beam of light in his life... And NH are using this as another parallel proof to NH because Hinata, you know, means "Placed in the sun"

Well in a way they are right despite not being a parallel obviously, Naruto is the only beam of light on her life but you know, it was portraited as negative.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 14 November 2013 - 12:41 PM.

[rocci]

Than if obito failed and madara survive, he will ask Hinata to become the replacement for obito and become the first female savior of humanity

[arian_rad]

 
Lol, I found this somewhere on the web... Obito said that Rin was his only beam of light in his life... And NH are using this as another parallel proof to NH because Hinata, you know, means "Placed in the sun"

I don't know how a beam of light and the sun are similar.... How could someone try so hard to make a connection that doesn't make sense. The whole beam of light was used for symbolism in this chapter as naruto basically being the beam of light to all others who were trying to help him. I don't know why this concept is taken so far out of context

[TouKen4Life3g]

It's sad really. Plus why keep on that sun crap if it hasn't brought up in ages. Actually, didn't only brought up in chapter cover?

[Nate River]

With all due respect, if you say you want him to die to satisfy yourself than I would not say that it is wrong, In fact I could vouch for that feeling myself, but it would be good to admit it is a personal grudge and disgust with the person rather than justice since we all know revenge is revenge, not justice if you don't mind me saying.

I meant to add this earlier, but my computer wouldn't let me. To the extent I sound upset and offended, I'm not in the slightest. I tried to remove the last line about questioning my motives, but could not. I just think that kind of attack is weak and is beating around the bush.

Second, I don't understand the first sentence of this paragraph. Why accuse me of wanting it for self-satisfaction and then say it's not wrong? You undermine your own argument.

Finally, I don't believe the only consideration is the belief he might kill many more. It's a consideration, but not the only one.

You don't think you are wrong about whether he would kill again, but he's already shown the propensity for it and on grand scale. I would be unwilling to even take the risk. Moreover, I think his crimes are so great that the only thing he can give that is remotely fitting of them is his own life.

If you were wrong, what you have to say of the families of the dead?

[Serenity Namikaze]

Well in a way they are right despite not being a parallel obviously, Naruto is the only beam of light on her life but you know, it was portraited as negative.

 

I think that he was talking about Hinata, not Naruto as her name mean 'Placed in the sun' and might mean a parallel that Naruto is everyone's light then Hinata could be his light??

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

You don't think you are wrong about whether he would kill again, but he's already shown the propensity for it and on grand scale. I would be unwilling to even take the risk. Moreover, I think his crimes are so great that the only thing he can give that is remotely fitting of them is his own life.

If you were wrong, what you have to say of the families of the dead?

I also think about that, i only think that Obito is being more judged because he killed Inoich, Shikaku and Neji rather than the 40,000 ninjas he killed off.
I mean when Sasuke come back i didnt see any of the samurais or the kumogakure ninjas wanting Sasuke to be killed or arrested.

And that really pissed me off.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 14 November 2013 - 02:25 PM.

[Phantom_999]

I'm trying to see how you get that from what I said. I have been specific about why he is human debris and it has nothing to with begging for anything. It has to do with all the dead bodies.

Accepting responsibility is the very least he could do. He's trash regardless, but he'd be a special breed of it if he couldn't accept the responsibility for the direct and intended result of his actions. If people are giving him any serious credit for doing this then their standards are too low.

The reason he trash because he is a murderer. A mass murderer. He is trash because he uses a personal tragedy to justify inflicting pain, suffering, death upon those who have done nothing to harm him. He is trash because he wants to permanently take away EVERYONE's freedom for his own selfish ends while telling them it's for their own good. Those who don't die, lose any meaningful sense of life because they live at his leisure and experience life as he allows it. He is trash because he sought to kill his mentor for the crime of having other duties that didn't involve protecting Obito's love life. I can keep going...

 
 


His victims are dead. Unless Kishimoto is willing turn the remainder of this arc into something not fit for use as toilet paper, then there is no correcting that. It's repugnant to even think he can. His plan, had it worked, would have left the rest under his thumb with no way to fight back.

In addition, how is going to accomplish this? Are you seriously contemplating a scenario where his sorry ass gets to leave prison in anything but an escort to the gallows (or whatever it is these ninja use) or a body bag? I guess he can write a book on his experiences and why you shouldn't slaughter the masses in pursuit of stealing their lives from them. Maybe some speaking gigs or something. I think the universe will survive if that doesn't get written.

Humane? I suppose it would be, but saying so is a far cry from saying his execution is inhumane and I don't think that it is. Why is his execution not acceptable? You (and James) never got around to saying that.

 


I like the part where you presume my motives for me. And I'll say it again: He took life while trying to rob the remainder or their freedom. The end result is that he would have taken all life from the dead and all meaningful life from those that remained. So yes, I think justice demands that he pay for that sin with his own life.Anything else is insufficient. And, yes, it would be for the greater good considering he has demonstrated a capacity to engage in world ending behavior and that he has no problem slaughtering innocent people.

Rather than attacking my motives, you should be open about what you are saying: Killing someone for their crimes is NEVER just. If this guy is not fit for it who is? If this is what you feel then argue it, instead of sidestepping by claiming the only reasons I could possibly be motivated are improper ones. Intentionally or not, you leave yourself an out by leaving open the possibility someone could be motivated by justice, but the proceed to tell me that can't possibility be the basis for it.

 


I don't care about them and I don't care why they do it.

And...

"Not guaranteed" and "pretty sure"? If this is all the certainty you possess about them then where do you get off telling me that your certain about my motivations must be rooted in self-satisfaction.

 

No,  I'm not attacking your motives, and if it seems like I'm insulting you, that's not my intention. However it seems that we have different ideas of justice, and I was expressing mine.  What is just to me is not killing a person for what they've done, but on the account that they won't change and will continue to destroy lives when others try to convince them of their wrongs and they won't listen. What is just to me is to stop wrongs from going further by people who would never show remorse for any destructive actions that they would do in the future. One good example: the Joker. He is Psychopathic and has not once repented for all the pain and suffering he's caused. And he definitely will never show remorse in the future. Let's just leave it at that though because not only does Batman not kill him but on the occasions that he does die, he comes back for reasons completely unrelated to mercy.

 

If you believe James and I have not explained properly about why we differ from your statements, I then I will try explain more thoroughly but my answer hasn't changed. It's because we have not seen yet whether Obito plans to contribute more positively to the world from now on. He has caused too many deaths to be forgiven, but it's not about forgiveness. No one is saying they forgive him, but if he was willing to do something good, then in my opinion at least it is worth risking to let him live longer to see if he holds to his word, but stop him if he steps out of line.

 

If you're saying that I should be more open to my opinion, then I agree but wouldn't admitting that wanting Obito to die, because of some personal grudge against him, also be openminded? Did I ever say that Killing someone out of revenge was a bad thing? No, because it is human to take revenge, but it should be acknowledged that it is being done in vengeance rather than justice. That aside I do not have absolutes in my opinion, and so do not think Killing is never justified. As I stated above, if killing would prevent more deaths and more suffering from occurring I'd readily take that option, but if the person wants to do good to make up for the wrong, then whether not I forgive him or her is not the question, but rather would I, as a human being at least grant this person the opportunity to make amends. Once again, It's not about forgiveness because you can not forgive a person while they are alive just as much as you can forgive a person after they're dead.

 

Alright that Sakura part is irrelevant to this conversation so forget that it ever popped up. In Conclusion my point was that I do not consider Obito dying just because of the deaths he cause is just. Would I be SATISFIED if he was killed for his crimes? Sure, and others would be satisfied too, but again is it justice to be satisfied or is it just that, satisfaction? Again, feel free to disagree with me cause I'm not one to shut the opinions of others out. I enjoy debating.     

Edited by Phantom_999, 14 November 2013 - 02:57 PM.

[rocci]

Hmm, is this the discussion about obito crime or his punishment? I think I'm lost.

[Chatte]

Who would've thought Obito's redemption...in a way or another, would bring so much controversy...

[Derock]

Who would've thought Obito's redemption...in a way or another, would bring so much controversy...

 

Because most people want something similar like we get the terrorist during a war and give him/her the death penalty. And when that way isn't going to work, well...

 

It is a controversy because most want violence as the finale, when the actual truth is that violence IS not the answer.

[Kster95]

It is really going to suck for Obito if he does not die here, I imagine his punishment to be prison to life with no parole lol Also to depower him they will prob take out both his eyes.

[Nate River]

No,  I'm not attacking your motives, and if it seems like I'm insulting you, that's not my intention. However it seems that we have different ideas of justice, and I was expressing mine.  What is just to me is not killing a person for what they've done, but on the account that they won't change and will continue to destroy lives when others try to convince them of their wrongs and they won't listen. What is just to me is to stop wrongs from going further by people who would never show remorse for any destructive actions that they would do in the future. One good example: the Joker. He is Psychopathic and has not once repented for all the pain and suffering he's caused. And he definitely will never show remorse in the future. Let's just leave it at that though because not only does Batman not kill him but on the occasions that he does die, he comes back for reasons completely unrelated to mercy.

My understanding of Comic Book Batman is limited. I really can't use it as a comparison point because I don't know if some of the things that look for.

I don't mean to say I think you are insulting me, but were attaching motives to me that you are then declaring illegitimate rather than taking on the substance of the argument.
 

If you believe James and I have not explained properly about why we differ from your statements, I then I will try explain more thoroughly but my answer hasn't changed. It's because we have not seen yet whether Obito plans to contribute more positively to the world from now on. He has caused too many deaths to be forgiven, but it's not about forgiveness. No one is saying they forgive him, but if he was willing to do something good, then in my opinion at least it is worth risking to let him live longer to see if he holds to his word, but stop him if he steps out of line.

There is forgiveness and there is punishment. If Naruto wants to forgive him for wrongs against Naruto that is Naruto's choice. At time it feels like Naruto is making calls on behalf of everyone wronged and he has no right to do that. If played realistically, this could be an enormous and very ugly conflict depending on what Naruto's ultimate choice was. He's far more than just Naruto or Konoha's problem.

But forgiving someone for their transgressions does not mean, as tricksie said that they are not expected to pay the piper. There are consequences for doing what he did, forgive or not, he should still have to face those. That is my issue.

I don't care what Obito wants at this stage. It genuinely bothers me that this is even a focal point. As I keep saying, what about everyone else? Why are you only asking about what Obito wants and plans to do? Even if he does, for me, it's too late. If he stolen some money or committed a simple Assault? Yeah, I'd be more interested, but at least then the possibility exists for the victim to be made whole and, more importantly, they still have a life they can live. Obito stole the lives of people who had nothing to do with his tragedy. They, barring a repeat of Pain, doesn't get to do that here. They're dead.

 

If you're saying that I should be more open to my opinion, then I agree but wouldn't admitting that wanting Obito to die, because of some personal grudge against him, also be openminded? Did I ever say that Killing someone out of revenge was a bad thing? No, because it is human to take revenge, but it should be acknowledged that it is being done in vengeance rather than justice. That aside I do not have absolutes in my opinion, and so do not think Killing is never justified. As I stated above, if killing would prevent more deaths and more suffering from occurring I'd readily take that option, but if the person wants to do good to make up for the wrong, then whether not I forgive him or her is not the question, but rather would I, as a human being at least grant this person the opportunity to make amends. Once again, It's not about forgiveness because you can not forgive a person while they are alive just as much as you can forgive a person after they're dead.

I'm not saying you should be more open minded about other possibilities. It felt like, to me, that you were in essence arguing that his execution is wrong in and of itself, but rather than saying so you said that my reasons for wanting it were wrong there for his execution is wrong. I was wrong in my reading of it, but at the time I thought if you feel that way I think it more honest to simply stake that position rather than skate past it by saying all I wanted was self-satisfaction.
 

Alright that Sakura part is irrelevant to this conversation so forget that it ever popped up. In Conclusion my point was that I do not consider Obito dying just because of the deaths he cause is just. Would I be SATISFIED if he was killed for his crimes? Sure, and others would be satisfied too, but again is it justice to be satisfied or is it just that, satisfaction? Again, feel free to disagree with me cause I'm not one to shut the opinions of others out. I enjoy debating.

I explained why I think it just and I continue to stand by that.

[Chatte]

 

Because most people want something similar like we get the terrorist during a war and give him/her the death penalty. And when that way isn't going to work, well...

 

It is a controversy because most want violence as the finale, when the actual truth is that violence IS not the answer.

Oh don't get me wrong, I see what you mean here.. It's just, dunno, a nice thing you know? See the people having these debates over good/wrong and all that stuff. Kishi sure knows how to put people in dilemmas haha.

 

My opinion is rather simple... yes, he is not to be forgiven for his actions but as you said, violence is not the answer. Plus, if Naruto would kill Obito, the cycle of hatred Naruto wants to break will continue in terms of what the manga has shown us. The general idea is that no, killing one another won't bring peace, everyone has to learn about forgiveness in order to break this cycle. That's the whole point, that's why Naruto didn't kill him even if he holds him accountable for his deeds.
That's why Tsunade also stopped the Alliance on going after Obito, because she saw what Naruto is trying to do... If Obito would get killed now, this would remind everyone about it and thus, at a certain point in time, if a chaotic situation rises, they'll remember that Obito was killed and they will consider it justice. Naruto is not trying to give that example to the SA. Naruto is showing that there are other ways, therefore this whole thing leading to the breaking of the hatred cycle.

[Psychox]

I don't know how a beam of light and the sun are similar.... How could someone try so hard to make a connection that doesn't make sense. The whole beam of light was used for symbolism in this chapter as naruto basically being the beam of light to all others who were trying to help him. I don't know why this concept is taken so far out of context

 

Concentrate on the '' source '' , Hinata ->sun, Naruto 's ray of light ...... I can think of 3 people that are in team 7 and none of them are wearing the Huugya family name .

But folks will claim that she loves Naruto and she has done so much for him so therefore..    i think we all know what fallows of that argument.
 

 

 

Because most people want something similar like we get the terrorist during a war and give him/her the death penalty. And when that way isn't going to work, well...

 

It is a controversy because most want violence as the finale, when the actual truth is that violence IS not the answer.

 

That's absolutely true , violence isn't the answer , but what if those people are not stopped by words or prison bars  ? What then ? The cycle goes on , Naruto (or somebody else) brakes it by forgiving and turning away of hatred and vengeance , but what if ...? That's the question , you would be a strong individual by forgetting and forgiving the perpetrator ,but what if that person doesn't seek redemption and continues killing or still wants to enslave mankind or w/e the case ? 


Take Sasuke for instance , the guy doesn't want redemption or salvation , how is Naruto gonna stop him with words when he already tried this tactic and failed ? By filling the hole in his heart ? Sure , Naruto could work as a substitute of what Sasuke has lost ,but he apparently doesn't want that . He could've converted to the light , but no , he flat-out again . Maybe its because of the plot ,but still... it does bring a lot of questions . How is Sasuke gonna stop when under the samurai bridge he was gonna eradicate Konoha and slaughter little children as well ? It evades me what road will Kishi take .


Kishi did a good job with Obito, he lost his way ,because there was no one to support him or he couldn't escape loneliness , so that's why he was dripped in the darkness. If there is someone to help you and you never give up and keep on living , good things will come/happen  . That's what Oda wrote when Aaron park arc was in play , so maybe he will do something like that?

Edited by Psychox, 14 November 2013 - 04:32 PM.

[tricksie]

If you believe James and I have not explained properly about why we differ from your statements, I then I will try explain more thoroughly but my answer hasn't changed. It's because we have not seen yet whether Obito plans to contribute more positively to the world from now on. He has caused too many deaths to be forgiven, but it's not about forgiveness. No one is saying they forgive him, but if he was willing to do something good, then in my opinion at least it is worth risking to let him live longer to see if he holds to his word, but stop him if he steps out of line.

 

If you're saying that I should be more open to my opinion, then I agree but wouldn't admitting that wanting Obito to die, because of some personal grudge against him, also be openminded? Did I ever say that Killing someone out of revenge was a bad thing? No, because it is human to take revenge, but it should be acknowledged that it is being done in vengeance rather than justice. That aside I do not have absolutes in my opinion, and so do not think Killing is never justified. As I stated above, if killing would prevent more deaths and more suffering from occurring I'd readily take that option, but if the person wants to do good to make up for the wrong, then whether not I forgive him or her is not the question, but rather would I, as a human being at least grant this person the opportunity to make amends. Once again, It's not about forgiveness because you can not forgive a person while they are alive just as much as you can forgive a person after they're dead.

 

I see Obito as having two paths in front of him. Either execution at the hands of an Allied Tribunal or the country which can claim the greatest injury from his actions, or life in prison (again, which is contingent on all nations agreeing to that sentence).

 

Whether he's forgiven by any parties or he shows any personal remorse has nothing to do with his actions and their consequences. His actions stand alone, and he has to be judged by that.

 

These are the messy details that undermine Naruto's message of breaking the cycle of hatred (which is why it gets glossed over). And it gets even messier when you realize this is someone who has wreaked havoc all over the shinobi nations, not just in Konoha. So each nation will have it's own standard of justice.

 

I am not banging the drum for Obito's death, simply because I think he's going to die anyway. It will make things so much easier for Naruto, Konoha and the rest of the world if they can all move on in without first having to come to some agreement on what is the fitting punishment for their generation's Hitler. And Naruto can still walk away having won the fight with minimal blood on his hands.

 

As a creator, Kishimoto writes himself into a corner by making villainous bad guys, then forcing the reader and the rest of the characters to understand and sympathize with him. And the groundwork has been laid for Madara to be another one of these villain-who-gets-redeemed-even-though-he-shouldn't-be type of characters. Blech. 

 

There are things I like a lot about this manga. But being forced to sympathize with the villains so the plot can move on is not one of them.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

I see Obito using edo rinne tensei, i think.
Naruto wont let people kill him without him actually having a chance to redeem himself, now that the alliance is not closer to Obito anymore, it's only Obito, Kakashi and Minato there talking and probably Sasuke if he's not following Naruto.

 

Obito doesnt seek forgiveness neither redemption from them but he will seek for redeeming himself.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 14 November 2013 - 04:57 PM.

[rocci]

Obito come from konoha and since there are no international court in naruto world than obito will get trial base on konoha/fire country law. Either death penalty or put on jail forever and seal/strip his power.

But I agree with Hammurabi law.