251 replies to this topic

[tricksie]

 

Why is only Naruto considered the manipulator? If that's the case, then isn't Madara just as manipulative as Naruto is right now? It's always baffles me that people can think one way can happen and yet never crosses their mind that it can also apply to the other side of the coin. Do you believe that people are manipulated to be evil or does it just come naturally? Obviously, you don't believe people are born evil considering you believe that the Uchiha curse is just an excuse so....

Basically, you're preaching that there is no such thing as good or evil and people are only manipulated to be such labels. How can that be? You don't think people can be good because they want to be? Of course, when we are born we don't know the the idea of good or evil. All we know is that we are selfish and are born wanting things. It is only when we grow do decide to be generous or not. Can't the essence of good and bad be the same way? We aren't born good or bad, but we can choose to be based on what we want in life. If people want to be good, could they be considered good just by wanting to be? If they want to be good and do thing to show goodness to others, then are they not good?

 

So, to you Obito is not bad and Naruto is not good. Obito was just more selfish than Naruto.

Just to note, if you do say that Naruto manipulates people to be good, but people naturally developed into being bad...your logic is full of crap. No offense.

 

 

Then the circle of hatred will continue and Naruto will have failed in his goal to "end the circle of hatred." No one will get behind? Didn't a lot of people just say that they are willing to get behind Naruto and support his ideals? So I guess whatever Naruto thinks is best people will support. Even Naruto himself has struggled with people with the same ideals you are preaching now and has told them that getting revenge and killing people for it will not fix the problem. It won't bring back was is lost.

And what about Sasuke? Should he die too or should he have a second chance at life? You're basically saying that anyone who ever does anything wrong should just be killed and not have a chance to redeem themselves or make things right. Death is the only solution for any broken laws.

 

Wow. So much stuff I didn't say. And then to tell me my logic is full of crap. Just...wow.

 

Don't worry James, I'm not offended. I'm just really not sure where you're going with all this.

 

Let me reiterate, I said that Naruto was a planning leader. He's offering Obito a package deal that the rest of the village may not be on board with. Basically, Naruto extends his hand, says come to our side, it's all going to be okay. But the reality is that army behind him is going jump on Obito and throw him in jail for his crimes. He may get life in prison or a swift execution. Neither of which is part of Obito's plans for his future. 

 

It's different from the Nagato arc because Naruto went off and parlayed in secret. But here, Naruto is right there with everyone. The results of his TnJ will be immediately known and acted on. 

 

I see a difference between this arc and the Nagato one in the Naruto has moved into more of a leadership role. He is saying things that he may not be able to deliver on, but that he has to to keep the peace. He is offering Obito an alternative life that he in no way can deliver. Rin is still dead. He will still be held accountable for his crimes. The only way he can reunite with his love now, in the way he wants, is if he dies. Which leads me to believe that Naruto knows it is going to kill Obito when the remove the bijuu (which is big milestone for a ninja who is never shown killing people), but he is giving Obito a chance to redeem himself while he's still alive. 

 

 

So again, this is another mark of Naruto being more of a leader — killing when he needs to, in the name of protecting his village. It's different from Nagato, in that Nagato killed himself off. And the question was never put to Naruto of whether he was going to climb up his frail body and stick him with a kunai. Nagato did it himself.

 

As for the circle of hatred, uh...I'm not "preaching" anything. Again with the things I didn't say. 

 

Sure everyone unites behind Naruto. But that doesn't mean their crimes are automatically absolved. There are lots of messy details that are bypassed in the dramatic battlefield moments. And Naruto may be offering peace and even redemption, but it's not completely in Naruto's power to give it. With Sasuke specifically, he killed the Iron Country samurai and should have to face punishment for his crimes in that country (after Naruto TnJ's him back to the good side, of course). No matter how much Naruto believes in Sasuke, Sasuke still is beholden to the laws in those countries. And there's not much Naruto can do about it. They are all united for the war, but they are not dissolving their borders and forming Narutolandia after it's over. Pesky, pesky details. They'd have to go back to their original countries, laws, borders, etc.

 

So no, obviously I never said that anyone who does anything wrong should just be killed. 

[rocci]

@dattebayo
Obito still has kamui.

@arian rad
I doubt he will send his love interest to the man who always cause misarable to pairings couple.


At the end of this arc, once known as the hero of sharingan will make his last heroic act. Somehow.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Imagine the next chapter pulls a DBZ moment with Naruto doing a counter to Obito's attack and Naruto last word is "You fool!" Not going to lie, have not that cop out happened, that moment was damn good.

[DattebayoXShannaro]

 

Are you making excuses for Sasuke? You know good came out of some of things he has done, but his concern was not whether it was a good or bad thing. That's why I bring up selfishness. He didn't care about being a good or bad guy. Rather he gets what he wants. Obito's case is rather similar. Good or bad doesn't really apply when you don't give a crap. He wants what he wants and if it so happen to cause good or bad stuff along the way, so be it.

Kazuma said it best in Kaze No Stigma:

"Why are you getting in our way, helping those you hate?"

"For Money. The head of the family hired me. A man's gonna eat. I play to the highest bidder kid, I am not a hero, but if I manage to do some good in the process so be it."

 

Except to Naruto every one can and will be forgiven. Naruto is basically Jesus Christ in that he meant to forgive no matter what is done to him because he is the ultimate good guy. It's stupid and people say it is stupid, but that's the kind of character he is. He will always forgive no matter what happens.

 

That's how you end the circle of hatred. I know many don't understand this concept and love to hold onto grudges, but it doesn't fix what is broken. Hell, even prison is not really a means to "re-educate" seeing how some come out worse than when they went in.

 

The idea that you tell is how people want revenge for all the death Obito has done. All the lives he has taken should be put on his shoulder and punishment should be put upon him such as death, but death doesn't really bring back the dead does it? It only prevents the villain from taking more lives. However, what if the murderer doesn't want to kill and instead wants to make better of the world? You might just be killing the one person that could help change the world for better instead of destroying it.

 

The entire means of putting someone in prison is to re-educate, is it not? A punishment to teach them that what they do is bad and frowned upon by society. What if they never learn that and continue to want to do bad things? Can't re-educate those who don't want re-education. So death is in order. However, is it fair to kill those that want a second chance simply because YOU can't get over their crimes? Isn't that you being exactly like them in a way? You are just killing them in the name of so called "justice" when really you just want revenge like they wanted. It makes you just as selfish.

 

So you are a murderer too and instead of basing punishment on whether or not it will teach a lesson, you are basing a punishment on your own grudge. You have to accept that there are some people who want to better themselves and that killing them outright is not a means to "fix" the world. Otherwise, why not just take a radical approach and kill every single person that ever did anything wrong?

 

You might not agree with it, but that's what being a hero is all about. Doing the things that no average person can do. Also, if we are to forgive Sasuke for all he has done because "it always serendipity itself into being a good thing," then why not forgive Danzo who believed that doing the wrong thing for the right reasons is considered good? Many say Danzo is an a**hole and a bad guy along with Itachi, but both men did something bad believing it was the only way to solve the greater good. Sasuke "killed" Itachi and Danzo not because he felt it was the greater good, but because he selfishly wanted revenge.

 

 

Bolded:  Death Note in a nutshell.

 

I don't want to believe Obito will die for Kakashi's sake at the least.  He really should go back to Konoha, and live a life of repentance, with Kakashi, and his team to be there for him.  He lost his powers of the sage, so he should be out of commission for the rest of the war.  Though if he will live a life of repentance,the best way to start is to clean up his own mess.  With that thought in mind, maybe Kishimoto will have him go to frontlines one last time.  I just hope he doesn't die.  It's not that I feel pity for him or anything.  I just think it will be best for his character arc.  I have to agree with Darkerest in the regards that Naruto doesn't really forgive the villains.  He doesn't lose sight of the best option in the long run for the situation, and acts on it.  That's definitely a step towards for forgiveness, but only to people that have hurt him personally, such as Obito and Nagato.   It's not like he'll forgive a villain that hasn't hurt him personally, but will still seek to stop him/ her in the most appropriate way he can.  Depends on the antagonist really.

 

 

@dattebayo
Obito still has kamui.

@arian rad
I doubt he will send his love interest to the man who always cause misarable to pairings couple.


At the end of this arc, once known as the hero of sharingan will make his last heroic act. Somehow.

 

Madara has Susanoo to drastically increase his size and weight, making it difficult for Obito to pull him in.  Plus, Madara is an edo tensei against Obito who is alive and has limits.  It's a battle Obito will lose.

 

Who knows?  Naruto trusts Sakura to defend herself should something happen.  I'm more worried about Sasuke wanting to finish the job.

Edited by DattebayoXShannaro, 07 November 2013 - 03:22 AM.

[Shadow Wolf]

Let me summarize how I saw this chapter in three simple words: So much constipation.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

 

Wow. So much stuff I didn't say. And then to tell me my logic is full of crap. Just...wow.

 

Don't worry James, I'm not offended. I'm just really not sure where you're going with all this.

 

Let me reiterate, I said that Naruto was a planning leader. He's offering Obito a package deal that the rest of the village may not be on board with. Basically, Naruto extends his hand, says come to our side, it's all going to be okay. But the reality is that army behind him is going jump on Obito and throw him in jail for his crimes. He may get life in prison or a swift execution. Neither of which is part of Obito's plans for his future. 

 

It's different from the Nagato arc because Naruto went off and parlayed in secret. But here, Naruto is right there with everyone. The results of his TnJ will be immediately known and acted on. 

 

I see a difference between this arc and the Nagato one in the Naruto has moved into more of a leadership role. He is saying things that he may not be able to deliver on, but that he has to to keep the peace. He is offering Obito an alternative life that he in no way can deliver. Rin is still dead. He will still be held accountable for his crimes. The only way he can reunite with his love now, in the way he wants, is if he dies. Which leads me to believe that Naruto knows it is going to kill Obito when the remove the bijuu (which is big milestone for a ninja who is never shown killing people), but he is giving Obito a chance to redeem himself while he's still alive. 

 

 

So again, this is another mark of Naruto being more of a leader — killing when he needs to, in the name of protecting his village. It's different from Nagato, in that Nagato killed himself off. And the question was never put to Naruto of whether he was going to climb up his frail body and stick him with a kunai. Nagato did it himself.

 

As for the circle of hatred, uh...I'm not "preaching" anything. Again with the things I didn't say. 

 

Sure everyone unites behind Naruto. But that doesn't mean their crimes are automatically absolved. There are lots of messy details that are bypassed in the dramatic battlefield moments. And Naruto may be offering peace and even redemption, but it's not completely in Naruto's power to give it. With Sasuke specifically, he killed the Iron Country samurai and should have to face punishment for his crimes in that country (after Naruto TnJ's him back to the good side, of course). No matter how much Naruto believes in Sasuke, Sasuke still is beholden to the laws in those countries. And there's not much Naruto can do about it. They are all united for the war, but they are not dissolving their borders and forming Narutolandia after it's over. Pesky, pesky details. They'd have to go back to their original countries, laws, borders, etc.

 

So no, obviously I never said that anyone who does anything wrong should just be killed. 

Hmm...

I always thought that "come to our side" was a figurative way to tell him to do the right thing, i'm pretty sure that Naruto hasnt forgive Obito too.
But doesnt mean that he will kill him or put him in jail, he's not asking him to be at their side like a shinobi of the leaf village and living there with them, but rather doing the right thing.

Naruto will be like Pain's arc where he only said that he wont kill him and let him go, i dont think he's offering a place in the village.

 

And i differ from you when you said that Pain's arc and Obito were different, in fact both the TnJ is being done privately and if Nagato didnt ressurrected everyone, the survivors and the rest of the k11 would ask him why he didnt killed Nagato and let him go.

It's the same thing him, they'll ask why Naruto wont kill Obito and let him go.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 07 November 2013 - 10:20 AM.

[Isian]

Anyone else feeling that sort of bittersweetness knowing that with every chapter that comes out its getting closer to the end?

[Atheck]

Madara has Susanoo to drastically increase his size and weight, making it difficult for Obito to pull him in.  Plus, Madara is an edo tensei against Obito who is alive and has limits.  It's a battle Obito will lose.

Actually, there are quite a few abilities which should still be available to him. The Rinnegan is still implanted which means that all of the paths' jutsu could be used against Madara (if they were being practical then Hungry Ghost Realm would be in constant use). Since he's still a jinchuuriki of sorts to the Mazo, all of its abilities are potentially usable as well. Demonic statue chains for immobilisation purposes, chakra blasts, gigantic shockwaves, and then it creates that ethereal dragon creature that we saw in Nagato's flashback which is capable of draining the souls of those it comes into contact with. He also has that interesting Uchiha based flame barrier technique which he used to protect Gedo Mazo with as it was first transforming into the Jubi.

All of that next to Kamui and Mokuton.

I would say that 90-95% of the strength received was from the Jubi, but Tobi was still powerful in his own right. Is it enough to contend with Madara? No. But it could generate some problems for him as he's trying to assume control of the Mugen Tsukuyomi.

Edited by Atheck, 07 November 2013 - 11:39 AM.

[Nate River]

Why is only Naruto considered the manipulator? If that's the case, then isn't Madara just as manipulative as Naruto is right now? It's always baffles me that people can think one way can happen and yet never crosses their mind that it can also apply to the other side of the coin. Do you believe that people are manipulated to be evil or does it just come naturally? Obviously, you don't believe people are born evil considering you believe that the Uchiha curse is just an excuse so....

 
It is an excuse. It's a cheap attempt by the author to paper over the problem that the clans actions have never lined up with the description of them that was given at the time. It appears the only member of the clan with anything close to clean hands is Shisui. And, no Itachi, has nothing close to that and I don't even have to lunge for the low hanging fruit of the mass murder of the clan to argue that.

At least on the terms of this universe, these people are adults who are capable of big boy and big girl decisions and saying it was because of the curse of their blood that drives them to constantly pursue questionable behavior. Something to blame so, the Uchiha can't be completely held responsible for what they do when it comes time to redeem their sorry behinds. People can speak with at least some reverence of these guys despite almost nothing on screen to justify it.

 
 
 

Then the circle of hatred will continue and Naruto will have failed in his goal to "end the circle of hatred." No one will get behind? Didn't a lot of people just say that they are willing to get behind Naruto and support his ideals? So I guess whatever Naruto thinks is best people will support. Even Naruto himself has struggled with people with the same ideals you are preaching now and has told them that getting revenge and killing people for it will not fix the problem. It won't bring back was is lost.

I agree with you. I think they would get behind him as the author once again coasts by the fact that most people who have suffered the kind of loss Obito inflicted would not welcome him back into the fold and would scream bloody murder that Naruto alone decided to deny their justice despite not being the only person wronged here. So, I'd have enormous trouble hand waiving it away, but I don't think he write something like that.

This issue complicates Kishimoto's goals so spectacularly that people like Nagato and Obito must die in the series despite redemption. If they die anyway, then no harm, no foul and Naruto doesn't have to justify squat to anybody who would be rightly pissed off to see someone who slaughtered their comrades walk away without consequence. Better yet, if they do something good on the way out the door then Naruto can stand on that should anybody b*tch about it.

I think that is what tricksie means when she says he must die. It's not because he's bad, although it's totally justified on that front too, but because if he lives then it leaves some rather thorny issues for character and plot development that are simply easier not to deal with.

 
 

And what about Sasuke? Should he die too or should he have a second chance at life? You're basically saying that anyone who ever does anything wrong should just be killed and not have a chance to redeem themselves or make things right. Death is the only solution for any broken laws.

Obito's a mass murderer. An a very petty one at that. He killed Neji to prove a point (not that bothers Naruto too much) The idea that Sasuke is even in the same universe as him is laughable, but I guess because Obito got sad because a girl he liked met a tragic end is enough to skate over the mountain of dead bodies that have resulted from an Obito instigated war (and Kyuubi) whose purpose was to extract the nine-tails. So....yeah. Obito has repeatedly done what Sasuke has only threatened to do, and to this point Itachi's manipulation was worse. Needless to say, there is nothing Kishimoto can offer me that will make me feel for him. To many bad acts and too many people that had nothing to do with why he was mad. He gave that when he chose to constantly harm and kill others because HE could deal with tragedy.

Sasuke has been a bad actor and he should suffer consequences for it (though he probably won't), but Sasuke is nothing but a cheap poser compared to what Obito has done. The problems surrounding Obito staying alive are why Sasuke is always under the protection of plot shield no jutsu. It's why he changes course before setting Konoha on fire, why Karin lives and forgives him in less time than it takes me to make a sandwich, why he's stopped from dropping his lightning jutsu on a defenseless Naruto and company, and why Sasuke's kill list is composed of entirely of people the main cast isn't sad to see dead.

[Canadian_DJ]

Well that escalated quickly ○◆○ but nevertheless great chapter and just as I expected, obito wouldnt give in that easily.

cant wait for the next issue.

Ps Sakuras hair man!! ♥♥

[Codus N]

 I think that is what tricksie means when she says he must die. It's not because he's bad, although it's totally justified on that front too, but because if he lives then it leaves some rather thorny issues for character and plot development that are simply easier not to deal with.

 

I think the same way. But my vision is a bit different. If Obito were to die, I would've liked it to be a double suicide with Kakashi. I honestly can't think of a fitting ending better than that.

[Superman333]

this chapter was great, I like how Naruto punched Obito in his jaw. Then the last panel with Obito talking about Rin, it could lead up to something more. Can't wait for 655 .  I can see a NS moment coming really really soon when we least expect it. 

Edited by Superman333, 07 November 2013 - 04:30 PM.

[kidNinja]

this chapter was great, I like how Naruto punched Obito in his jaw. Then the last panel with Obito talking about Rin, it could lead up to something more. Can't wait for 655 .  I can see a NS moment coming really really soon when we least expect it. 

 

Agreed. The recent NS moments have all been when we least expected them. Nobody saw the whole Edo Minato asking Sakura if she was naruto's gf coming and then turn around with a MinaKushi parallel confirmation in back to back panels.

[sushi.]

 

Agreed. The recent NS moments have all been when we least expected them. Nobody saw the whole Edo Minato asking Sakura if she was naruto's gf coming and then turn around with a MinaKushi parallel confirmation in back to back panels.

Then we must not expect.

 

We saw the Kushina parallel coming, we just stopped waiting for it because the gap between the parallel and the confirmation was 2 years.

[Superman333]

Then we must not expect.

 

We saw the Kushina parallel coming, we just stopped waiting for it because the gap between the parallel and the confirmation was 2 years.

Kishi seems to squeeze in a NS moment in all the most dangerous moments lols . 

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

 

 

So you are under the impression that Naruto is going to automatically make people love Obito for whatever reason at all which is not what I meant at all. Naruto is meant to be the person to forgive and be the person to end the revenge like you said. Obito being loved...well, Obito will always have Kakashi. What kind of friend would Kakashi truly be if he didn't try to help Obito? I am also sure Kakashi, like Naruto with Sasuke, is willing to support him no matter what.

The DIFFERENCE is whether or not giving him a chance to become a better person and in time maybe be fully forgiven of his crimes if he has proved it.

Also, who says Naruto doesn't forgive Nagato by now? He did make up by bringing everyone back to life. Do you think that grants a forgiveness from Naruto or do you feel he still holds a grudge against him after all this time? Imagine if Naruto just killed Nagato outright? Just boom, no talking just dead.

 

Do you think that in all realm of possibility that Obito can be both loved and forgiven of everything in life and not through death? Death doesn't always have to mean the "end all and be all" of forgiveness. Like so many have told me before, "Sasuke dying doesn't have to be the means for him to seek redemption. He could live and get redeemed." So, could Obito.

And here is another question: True forgiveness is in redemption and the person repenting all the sin they have committed. How is killing Obito, who possibly wants to redeem and make up for it somehow, a mean to true forgiveness, but the only option for Sasuke is for him to become a wandering Samurai and not ever trying to fix the wrongs he himself has done?

 

Please, don't give me this crap "Well, Sasuke killed only people who are bad in themselves and so it is easy to see he didn't do anything bad." According to you all, murder is bad no matter what so you can't say Sasuke deserves to live and Obito doesn't.

 

AND OF COURSE....

You can always take into an account that Obito was Madara's pawn from the very start and many could see it that way. Sure, his actions of murder after Madara got involved were all his own, but I think Madara influenced him to go down a certain path. Which leads to question, if Madara didn't find Obito would he have done all this?

 

I dont get it, i showed a panel where it proves this, peace is achieved if the people understands each other, breaking the circle of hatred is not about forgiving them but rather, refusing to become part of it by retaliating, example nagato kills the people, Naruto refuses to kill him and let him go, however he didnt forgive Nagato and still hated him.

You cant destroy hatred but you can break the circle, Sasuke will never be forgiven on the bad things he did, he does have a bad reputation, however Kumogakure and the Iron Country wont forgive him and he'll be at least become a persona non grata, but doesnt mean he will be executed or thrown in jail.

 

Naruto hasnt forgive either Nagato(before he died) or Obito therefore he cant make people forgive them too, Naruto understands everyone and they may seek revenge on Obito but he will probably reason and tell them to not kill him, by reasoning that killing him will make them no better than Obito much like he did on Pain's arc.

 

Naruto obviously has forgiven Nagato after he died, Minato reasoned him about Jiraiya's death and furthermore Obito undid the bad things he did to Naruto by ressurrecting the people who were killed by Nagato after that it's easy to forgive obviously.
It became more a thankfully to Nagato, since he learned what hatred and revenge is to a point that he understood what Jiraiya was talking to him.

 

Also about Sasuke and Obito, Obito doesnt have a place to return anymore, he's a guy who's supposed to be dead, however Sasuke still has team taka and due to his bad actions his former friends doesnt trust him or like him.

Even if Naruto convinces everyone to not retaliate they will not make them love or accept Sasuke as a friend, the damage has already been done.

About Obito it's clear, if he's supposed to do the right thing, he only has two options stop Madara or use the edo tensei, which the second is more likely and he will die, by judging himself and seeking his own redeemption, it wont make Naruto forgive him or the others ninjas forgive him but it's something like Obito making at least a good action to redeem himself for him.

 

 

About Sasuke and the wandering Samurai thing.
"Trying to fix the wrong things he did"

- He was a great help to the alliance in order to win this battle, so it does fix the bad things he has done but however wont fix his reputation and the damage his has done in terms of trusting and when it comes to the murders.

Those thing take a very long time to fix and some wont unless you're implying that he also has to work around to fix the fact he tried to kill Sakura by giving her a flower and calling her for a date.

Buying Ramen for Naruto, calling Ino for a date, buying a chess set for Shikamaru and etc...

You're implying that for Sasuke to get a fully redemption he has to work around to achieve the same status he once had on part 1.

 

Instead of accepting that he only did crap, caused a lot of harm to other people, acknowledging that he should care for the other people aswell and this mirrors to team Taka.

Kakashi got his redeemption just like this and despite after all the good things he has done, he still viewed himself as a trash which he was.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 08 November 2013 - 01:41 PM.

[Nate River]

So you are under the impression that Naruto is going to automatically make people love Obito for whatever reason at all which is not what I meant at all. Naruto is meant to be the person to forgive and be the person to end the revenge like you said. Obito being loved...well, Obito will always have Kakashi. What kind of friend would Kakashi truly be if he didn't try to help Obito? I am also sure Kakashi, like Naruto with Sasuke, is willing to support him no matter what.

 

Kakashi tried to help Obito and Obito turned him away. I think given the circumstances Kakashi is well within his right to tell him to screw off. 

 

 

 

The DIFFERENCE is whether or not giving him a chance to become a better person and in time maybe be fully forgiven of his crimes if he has proved it.

 

Heh. Forgive his crimes? I'm imagining the Iraqi's taking Hussein and releasing him to the populace instead of hanging him (which they did) or incarcerating him for the rest of his life. I can't imagine those people saying to him...you know those 30 years of hell and 2 million people you killed? Water under the bridge. Give them a hundred years and I still don't see it.

 

This is in essence what Naruto would be asking the survivors to do. 

 

They only way I can buy into what you say is to pretend that he didn't kill a bunch of people or start a war to in essence go after one guy.  Unfortunately, he totally did those things. Even if you could call his objective "good" (you can't), he's still a murderer.

 

 

 

Also, who says Naruto doesn't forgive Nagato by now? He did make up by bringing everyone back to life. Do you think that grants a forgiveness from Naruto or do you feel he still holds a grudge against him after all this time? Imagine if Naruto just killed Nagato outright? Just boom, no talking just dead.

 

 

Naruto did no such thing when he confronted Nagato. Kishimoto's track record has been that significant changes opinion are stated on screen. He does not change them off screen and then never have the character state it. Until Naruto says he has, he hasn't and you can't assume he has just because time has passed. 

 

 

 

Do you think that in all realm of possibility that Obito can be both loved and forgiven of everything in life and not through death? Death doesn't always have to mean the "end all and be all" of forgiveness. Like so many have told me before, "Sasuke dying doesn't have to be the means for him to seek redemption. He could live and get redeemed." So, could Obito.

 

Possible yes, believable no. Besides, it's one thing to say I forgive you to a murderer, it happens. It's another to say, I think you should walk free after your done telling us how sorry you are. And to love him? If I'm unfortunate enough to be related to all the canon fodder that died in this war, then no I can't imagine that I'll ever love him for offing by mother, father, brother, sister...etc. 

 

As I said before, the idea that Sasuke and Obito are even in the same universe is comical. You keep trying to equate them and you can't (which is intentional by the author). Dead bodies matter and Obito's stack is much, much higher. Sasuke has yet to commit a bad act (as far as the cast is concern) that cannot be undone (again, this is why Karin is alive). Every dead body is one of those for Obito. And there are thousands upon thousands of those. Does anyone in this series have a higher kill count? 

 

The exception, of course, is Gedo Mazo. I'm keeping my vomit bag nearby for the next couple of months because I don't think such a thing is impossible. However, it is a death sentence for him, unless we find Chiyo 2.0. 

 

 

 

Please, don't give me this crap "Well, Sasuke killed only people who are bad in themselves and so it is easy to see he didn't do anything bad." According to you all, murder is bad no matter what so you can't say Sasuke deserves to live and Obito doesn't.

 

I don't know anyone who makes this argument. This misses the point of Kishimoto's actual problem. It's not a matter of morality. the issue isn't was Sasuke killing moral or whether Obito liviing is moral. The latter will be a huge problem for Kishimoto all by itself if Obito does live, but even ignoring that, Kishimoto would have to sell the idea people are willing tolerate this decision because it impacts everyone involved in this war. Not just Naruto and not just Konoha. He would two choices to either do it quick after a speech, which would be impossible to swallow because it would lack all believability. I don;t generally buy into Kishimoto's philosophy, which is fine, and easy enough to live with. But what would be intolerable is simply to have everyone fall in line quickly and simply flat out ignore or waive away the legitimate counters to what he is doing. Kishimoto's track record on this already sucks, but to be asked to buy that kind of bilge...a bridge too far.

 

The other is the long, slow, highly complicated process of getting to that point...something that would greatly extend a story that appears to be approaching it's end (and is already 600+ chapters). I don't suspect he's interested in this.

 

I suppose there is a third route.... a massive time skip where it magically happens in the interim. If it's not mention then it's similar to problem number one I described above, if it is mentioned it would be an egregious violation of show, don't tell.

 

It's far, far simpler for him to die regardless of morals. I wish Kishimoto would deal with that complication, but it's a little late in the game for it. Pain would have been better because it could have been included as a running subplot.  

 

 

 

You can always take into an account that Obito was Madara's pawn from the very start and many could see it that way. Sure, his actions of murder after Madara got involved were all his own, but I think Madara influenced him to go down a certain path. Which leads to question, if Madara didn't find Obito would he have done all this?

 

Yes, they were, which is precisely the problem. As to your second question: it doesn't atter. Madara did find him and he did do all of this. Obito is far past the point of me caring about his manipulation. Obito chose to follow the plan. Obito decided to go back to him. Obito chose his own methods in furtherance of that. Madara has been dead for a decade plus, more than enough time for him to think about whether it was a good idea to continue this. I could have felt for him had he been stopped before inflicting all this harm...but now, it's not possible to overstate how little I care about Madara's role as it pertains to Obito's culpability. 

 

Pawn? No.

 

Obito was mad when Kabuto revived Madara and Obito has since given Madara the good ole middle finger more than once. Their interests diverged and Obito was more than willing to go his own way. Madara has also been dead for more than a decade. What's his excuse then?

 

Willing participant is a better description. 

[Phantom_999]

 

Are you making excuses for Sasuke? You know good came out of some of things he has done, but his concern was not whether it was a good or bad thing. That's why I bring up selfishness. He didn't care about being a good or bad guy. Rather he gets what he wants. Obito's case is rather similar. Good or bad doesn't really apply when you don't give a crap. He wants what he wants and if it so happen to cause good or bad stuff along the way, so be it.

Kazuma said it best in Kaze No Stigma:

"Why are you getting in our way, helping those you hate?"

"For Money. The head of the family hired me. A man's gonna eat. I play to the highest bidder kid, I am not a hero, but if I manage to do some good in the process so be it."

 

Except to Naruto every one can and will be forgiven. Naruto is basically Jesus Christ in that he meant to forgive no matter what is done to him because he is the ultimate good guy. It's stupid and people say it is stupid, but that's the kind of character he is. He will always forgive no matter what happens.

 

That's how you end the circle of hatred. I know many don't understand this concept and love to hold onto grudges, but it doesn't fix what is broken. Hell, even prison is not really a means to "re-educate" seeing how some come out worse than when they went in.

 

The idea that you tell is how people want revenge for all the death Obito has done. All the lives he has taken should be put on his shoulder and punishment should be put upon him such as death, but death doesn't really bring back the dead does it? It only prevents the villain from taking more lives. However, what if the murderer doesn't want to kill and instead wants to make better of the world? You might just be killing the one person that could help change the world for better instead of destroying it.

 

The entire means of putting someone in prison is to re-educate, is it not? A punishment to teach them that what they do is bad and frowned upon by society. What if they never learn that and continue to want to do bad things? Can't re-educate those who don't want re-education. So death is in order. However, is it fair to kill those that want a second chance simply because YOU can't get over their crimes? Isn't that you being exactly like them in a way? You are just killing them in the name of so called "justice" when really you just want revenge like they wanted. It makes you just as selfish.

 

So you are a murderer too and instead of basing punishment on whether or not it will teach a lesson, you are basing a punishment on your own grudge. You have to accept that there are some people who want to better themselves and that killing them outright is not a means to "fix" the world. Otherwise, why not just take a radical approach and kill every single person that ever did anything wrong?

 

You might not agree with it, but that's what being a hero is all about. Doing the things that no average person can do. Also, if we are to forgive Sasuke for all he has done because "it always serendipity itself into being a good thing," then why not forgive Danzo who believed that doing the wrong thing for the right reasons is considered good? Many say Danzo is an a**hole and a bad guy along with Itachi, but both men did something bad believing it was the only way to solve the greater good. Sasuke "killed" Itachi and Danzo not because he felt it was the greater good, but because he selfishly wanted revenge.

 

 

I agree with this statement. Killing should be the final means of stopping those that will only cause more suffering and death, with no desire to stop or be deterred from their choices, but those that want a chance at redemption should not be denied the chance. I also say that if you want revenge than at least admit that you do it because you want to do it, instead of that lame excuse of justification by saying you are doing it for the sake of the people killed. They're dead, so how do you know what they want? Revenge is for no one but yourself, but if you understand that and are willing to go through it anyway and accept the consequence of your choice then I for one won't stop you.

Edited by Phantom_999, 09 November 2013 - 03:05 AM.

[Nate River]

 

I agree with this statement. Killing should be the final means of stopping those that will only cause more suffering and death, with no desire to stop or be deterred from their choices, but those that want a chance at redemption should not be denied the chance. I also say that if you want revenge than at least admit that you do it because you want to do it, instead of that lame excuse of justification by saying you are doing it for the sake of the people killed. They're dead, so how do you know what they want? Revenge is for no one but yourself, but if you understand that and are willing to go through it anyway and accept the consequence of your choice than I for one won't stop you.

 

I think when you've killed as many people as Obito has then you have forfeited any right to demand anything like that. No matter how much he screams that he wants to make up for what he did, the victims are within their right to say F-you.  

 

He is entitled to nothing, but punishment and retribution. If he is given anything else then it is only as an act of mercy those he wronged chose to give to an unworthy wretch. 

[Dkey]

Then Obito's only possibility is to die. How is irrelevant and if he dies as Obito and not Tobi ( or the Juubi's Jinchuriki as he liked to call himself).

 

But still,

 

On one hand if Obito lives or dies after this conflict is over he isn't relevant to the story because most likely Sasuke's part will come to play and it will be a completely different story, but on the other hand it does offer a bit of hope regarding the effectiveness of what redemption and forgiveness means. Yes he did all those awful things but still in order to break the cycle of hatred is to stop hating at one point and if people would stop hating him for his wrongdoings it is a step forward in that direction.

 

Yes it's an idealistic and almost ireal way of seeing things, but honestly Kishi can get away with it because a) it's a children's story and b) if he could bring a new and effective way of solving wars and old hatreds then the guy would be eligible for a Nobel peace price.

I don't think he really needs to go the realistic way out.