241 replies to this topic

[Namaenash]

*nods to Kirabook and Kenny-kun too*

The thread has a purpose as an overview of Kishimoto's writing style. Basically, it encompasses more than just chapter 615 (so it not a good fit for the chapter thread) and most of the posts have been about the writing in general (so it's not a good fit for the NS debate thread).

I agree though the name gives the thread a bit of a bad rap. We could change the name of to better help posters and keep the topic from turning into a redundant thread....

Like.... "What's Kishimoto's strategy?" or "Where will Kishimoto go from here?"

I wouldn't mind a sister thread to the chapter thread that talks about Kishimoto's overall strategy, comparisons to other manga and anime, the inner workings of editors and marketeers on a manga, and how the reception is in Japan vs. the West.

That way, this thread could stay fresh through the next few chapters. Not just be ranty about one.

Any thoughts? Or have we reached the end of the lifespan of this thread already!

I personally have some difficulties to decipher what Kishi is trying to convey to the readers since Pein Arc is finished.
Back then everything is simple. You have a kid trying very hard to be acknowledged, protect his precious ones and keeping a promise. Readers are putting hope that he can reach his dreams, hence the message is very clear: try hard to reach you dream, if it doesn't work, try harder (his nindo to never give up).

After Pein Arc, Kishi started off with Naruto trying to plead Raikage to have mercy on Sasuke. He then shows Sakura's resolution to ease the burden from Naruto by a fake confession. And then we have an episode that foreshadows Naruto and Sasuke would die. What was the point on having such moments if it's never going to be addressed in the future?
We then jump to Naruto being uninformed about the war. I can appreciate the Kushina chapter, as it really touching and deliver the message about parents love to their kid very well. But the rest is simply not attachable enough. You have many characters revived from death only to be taken care offline. What's with seven swordsmen and Kakashi's rampage? How did it go? Why does Sasuke out of sudden questioning his path? I thought he made up his mind according to his confrontation with Gaara.

If NH does materialize from this chapter onwards, it'll make the final confrontation between Naruto and Sasuke less interesting. Why? Because Sakura's weights in the equation isn't that important if Naruto's feeling has been addressed now. She'll just be anonymous person whose waiting for her old teammate to come back. Readers won't be made curious what will happen by then, since Naruto's feeling has been concluded. The message would've been distorted: no matter how hard you try, your love interest wouldn't look back to you, might as well go with the other girl who happen to like you all along and pulled you up in the crucial moment (with tragedy, such as friend's death, as the trigger).

So, if that's the case, is Kishi trying to say...
- it's ok to make a promise you can't keep (POAL, promise that no one will die during the war)
- it's ok to give up your love to go with someone else who like you first and appear at the right moment. Although your love interest has also been there to pull you up occasionally.
- it's ok to make a fake confession to ease the burden of your teammates
- it's ok to regress, though you've met your supposed-to-be-dead Mom and Dad which gives you great advices to make you emotionally stronger.

... And so on. Try to read again from the first chapter up till the pein arc, and then compare with the war arc. If you've been following the manga since the start, you'll notice there's a lack of quality and consistency after the peon arc (with Kushina flashback as the exception).

Let's see if Kishi is raising the bar for each of the main characters (Naruto, Sasuke, Sakura) or he just plain tired since the pein arc.

[KnS]

The three first user are users like KNS, Paptala, Slex, when you read their lap you feel proud of being a NS fan after reading so much wisdom
There are like 15 users I really enjoy reading their post about pairing and they are the top ones, with some few junior and Bet who I start enjoy reading their post lately.

I've read so many posts in the last hour, trying to get caught up, that I almost missed this. Thanks for saying such a nice thing, Don-kun. It's very nice of you.


As for the topic at hand, I admit I don't always understand Kishimoto's decisions. As someone else said (again, too many posts!), he seems to struggle with the details even if his eye is on his master plan.

It is kind of weird that with such a slow-moving story Kishimoto seems to "forget" the need to plan and execute plot points so they don't shock or seem contrived (like #615 did to so many readers), or ignore some of his key characters for such long stretches. But he does it, and has more than once.

Is he inattentive? Does he not care? Is he so tired of writing the story or suffering its pace that he's lost his patience for investing in the finer details? I don't know. Armchair quarterbacking is always easier than actually making the plays. I generally prefer to imagine there is a purpose in his choices that we just can't see at the moment, and will hold my judgment in reserve until the entire story is over and all the puzzle pieces are in place.

Regardless of Kishimoto's flaws, and therefore the story's flaws, as an aspiring writer I still admire what he has accomplished. Surely it is every writer's dream to create a world and fill it with characters who inspire so much loyalty and passion in readers that they would create a discussion thread to dissect it...?

[James S Cassidy]

I personally have some difficulties to decipher what Kishi is trying to convey to the readers since Pein Arc is finished.
Back then everything is simple. You have a kid trying very hard to be acknowledged, protect his precious ones and keeping a promise. Readers are putting hope that he can reach his dreams, hence the message is very clear: try hard to reach you dream, if it doesn't work, try harder (his nindo to never give up).

I got it.

If NH does materialize from this chapter onwards, it'll make the final confrontation between Naruto and Sasuke less interesting. Why? Because Sakura's weights in the equation isn't that important if Naruto's feeling has been addressed now. She'll just be anonymous person whose waiting for her old teammate to come back. Readers won't be made curious what will happen by then, since Naruto's feeling has been concluded. The message would've been distorted: no matter how hard you try, your love interest wouldn't look back to you, might as well go with the other girl who happen to like you all along and pulled you up in the crucial moment (with tragedy, such as friend's death, as the trigger).

I read your post again and I want to discuss something with this.

I'll be honest, I wasn't interested in the Naruto vs Sasuke fight in the first place because...well we know how it is going to end. Sasuke will get 100% redeemed and 100% forgiven. He won't die and won't get punished in anyway. If something else different happens then I will happily surprised. Seeing how we know how the fight is going to end up, I never found interest in it.

What got me interested was the possible NS pairing scenes we were going to get or NS interaction. It's shallow, but still I can't lie. If Kishi decides to not do that and decides to go with NH instead, then now I lost all interest in the ending to the manga. Seems like nothing matters after that point. This is still a big case of if and why.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 29 December 2012 - 07:14 AM.

[pal2002]

He's trying very hard to brute force NH. All the NH developments all comes from Hinata, a support character, suddenly sticking her butt into the middle of highly improbable situations. The plot is just not realistic.

Although, we have to blame ourselves somewhat for reading a shounen manga as a romance novel.

[Weltall]

As for the topic at hand, I admit I don't always understand Kishimoto's decisions. As someone else said (again, too many posts!), he seems to struggle with the details even if his eye is on his master plan.

It's me of course that's why I'm always right I was right about Itachi, Obito and I will be right about the pairings I'm like that
All people whining now will soon be cheering Kishi and saying how great of a writer he is, well not all but a majority of people here mark my words.

Edited by Weltall, 29 December 2012 - 07:25 AM.

[Konohakitten]

You know I've been really disappointed in Kishi since Hinata's confession. That entire scene irked me, and I can't stand how it's still the main focus and ammo for NH fans, well aside from this current disaster we're facing. Honestly the confession (as much as it stung) was needed. Personally I felt happy knowing that Hinata had said her peace. I felt even better when Naruto never spoke to her, and instead was greeted with open arms by Sakura. Seeing Hinata stand in the crowd just smiling was even more proof that she accepted her place in Naruto's life. However now everything has been turned upside down. I'm truly puzzled as to why Kishi would cast Sakura aside after it seemed he had finished with Hinata's development. The confession was huge and he should have left Hinata's romantic feelings aside, but no he couldn't for whatever insane reason.

Her little speech to herself about holding Naruto's hand was uncalled for, I mean she couldn't even bring herself to talk to Naruto after he defeated Pain let alone hug him. Oh no but now for whatever reason she wants to hold his hand. Then Kishi goes and makes Sakura look like a fool by having her think of Sasuke when she turns down her secret admirer. It's almost as if he's progressing with Hinata and regressing with Sakura, its sick really, especially as a reader. As a writer I can see why he's done some things like the confession but everything else he's done is just one big hot mess, it doesn't make any sense at all. If his intentions were to further develop Hinata he failed. This entire chapter felt rushed, fake, and out of character. Hinata's reaction is something I would have expected from Sakura, not her. Which again makes us wonder why not Sakura?? Why wasn't she there to snap Naruto out of it like she's done before? I mean why in gods name has he put Hinata in such a momentous moment!? She hasn't earned it at all! It's like all of Sakura and Naruto's complex development towards each other has been thrown out the window.

What makes things even worse are all the NH shippers. Right away this whole holding hands business has been blown out of proportion. Apparently holding hands equals a couple instantly being canon.....really, what the hell are they freaking 7yrs old? Plus they are just focusing on that one NH moment, they have all forgotten that Neji just died. That to me personally was bad writing. Neji's death has been forgotten instantly, at least to most NH shippers. I don't know it's just frustrating how ass backwards Kishi has been with these three characters. Part of me is wondering if he's just giving Hinata this spot light because she will eventually lose her life during Naruto's attack. Honestly I would have preferred if she had died instead of Neji. That way the pairing war would be over and Naruto would have still had that same amount of remorse for a fallen comrade. No instead Kishi kills a beloved character that had so much going for him just so that Hinata could grow a pair of balls. Epic fail Kishi.

[KnS]

It's me of course that's why I'm always right I was right about Itachi, Obito and I will be right about the pairings I'm like that

Ah, so it was you. I've been right about a number of things in this story as well (Orochimaru's return is my favorite, since I had big arguments with some of my friends over my certainty, lol), and in all the fandoms I've followed over the years I've been right about every final pairing so far. So I am very keen to see if Kishimoto will ultimately break my winning streak.

All people whining now will soon be cheering Kishi and saying how great of a writer he is, well not all but a majority of people here mark my words.

As Spock (Prime) said in Wrath of Khan, "A distinct possibility." Fans are so swayed by their emotions. When we feel threatened or don't get what we want the way we want it, there is often an overwhelming temptation to say everything sucks. But when the pendulum swings back the other way -- assuming it does -- much, if not all, is forgiven. Or at least it doesn't seem as ugly and sucky.

We shall see.

The confession was huge and he should have left Hinata's romantic feelings aside, but no he couldn't for whatever insane reason.

I have to admit I agree with this. Anyone who reads my posts here knows I don't care for Hinata at all. She makes me want to go HULKSMASH. We can only hope that Kishimoto has a good reason for what he's doing, not an insane one.

[neoshadow]

I think what my biggest problem with Kishi's writing has been lately is connected to a quote I posted in the 615 thread.

“I don’t know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody.” – Bill Cosby

I believe Kishi doesn't understand this, he's built up such a large cast of characters that translate to a massive and incredibly varied fanbase that he wants to give everyone the spotlight, he wants every hero to achieve their goals even if those goals are in direct conflict with another characters goals that he will take any opportunity to give the character what he feels they deserve, and most of the time as is 615 it comes off as incredibly rushed, incredibly forced and is often out of place in the larger context of the plot or in the case of 615 steps over a beloved character just to force development of another.

There's also the problem of how characters have to develop and how it affects those around them, it's been brought up a lot over the last few days but its true Naruto regressed as a character, what happened to his conviction, it simply dissapeared, whats worse as he started to believe in Obito's words which he shouldn't, Pain destroyed Konoha, killed Kakashi and Jiraiya (characters with much greater importance to Naruto) and countless others, plus seemed to kill Hinata as well as directly oppose and refute Naruto's belief. But with all that Naruto still did not falter, he didn't forgive Nagato but he wouldn't kill him, he would not create more pain. In 615 all that is gone, replaced with a weak willed boy who would drop his beliefs at the slightest chance of failure just to give Hinata her moment. It destroys one character to empower another, but it isn't just any character being destroyed, its the titular character.

And the problem is it's easy to see why he does this. Why wouldn't you try to please everybody? It happens a lot with popular stories that have large fanbases, you've built up such good will that you wish to reward the fanbase that it often blinds you to your original goals. I don't believe its editorial mandate or Kishi folding to fan pressure or anything, its simply one man trying to please everybody when its detrimental to the overall quality because you simply cannot please everybody.

[James S Cassidy]

All people whining now will soon be cheering Kishi and saying how great of a writer he is, well not all but a majority of people here mark my words.

I just want him to fix it. That's all I am asking. I don't think I can see him as a "great" writer anymore unless he does something that really wows me.

[Dreamer_anime]

I found it pretty interesting that Kishi would do that but I reckon he has an interesting reason behind too.

First of all, Sakura. She seems to think she still likes Sasuke. She needs something mind-blowing/disturbing to help her understand her true feelings for Naruto. Hopefully, thats where Hinata comes in.
If you think about it, the time when she hugged Naruto after the war was after she realized that Hinata loves Naruto (while healing Hinata after the fight with pain). Even her sudden confession to Naruto (tho' it was supposed to be as a lie) in the land of Iron, she did it 'after' she knew Hinata loves Naruto.
I think in all this, we see sakura is confused facing various layers of her conflicting emotions and doesn't know what to do with them or express those feelings right.

Next Naruto. Naruto is the main hero, he never goes back on his word. I don't think his years and years of feelings for sakura would suddenly disappear just coz' someone else confessed to him. To me, the way he treats Hinata is same like he would treat any close friend. even in chap 615, he thanks hinata just like he also thanked neji. he was indeed grateful hinata helped him that moment, i mean anyone in her place deserves it coz naruto really needed to snap out. whether it was hinata or lee or sakura or gaara or anyone, naruto would have been very pleased to hear such consoling words.

and naruto is not really good with women (as you know in the first ep of naruto shippudden when he returns home after 3 years and sakura asks if she is more womanly and he says not to worry, she looks the same). he probably doesnt even realize that holding a girl's hand, especially a girl who confessed to him, is a romantic gesture. he holds hands like kids. i mean he even holds hands with sasuke lol
tho from hinata's point of view, i say it must be a very bold statement to her.



until and unless naruto himself says he loves hinata too (in that way!) then it cannot be a canon....
but naruto has always said how he loves sakura (yes in that way!) all the time.....

to go back now on his word....oh boy...thats one way to kill the main character you have built all these years (o.o)
i know kishi is sometimes awkward but lets just hope he isnt that dumb to make a character lose his feelings in a single moment!
that would be ridiculous....

[merryGOflava]

I sure hope kishi isn't a people pleaser (which i'm sure he isn't)

but people pleasing will not help anyone.....for long, maybe for a while.

IT REMINDS ME OF AVATAR.

alot of people wanted katara and zuko to get together even though, there was no evidence or proof that they even liked each other that way.......in fact for some time they disliked each other.

katara always cared for aang the most, there was tons of development and it made too much sense.

well when kataraXaang happened zukoXkatara fans were upset.


so legend of korra comes around (the new avatar series) and the creators practically make a zukoXkatara 2.0 pairing with korra(the heroine) and mako (the love interest) and just made it happen at the end of the season.

problem is....it was way to fast....seemed forced....and they had to break 2 characters hearts and cheat just to make it. it still doesn't make much sense to me......mako literally had to dump an awesome girlfriend who he had no trouble and was happy with...and korra had to reject a nice, fun guy who liked her for herself and didn't try to change her. (and i didn't even ship anyone, thats how i saw it)


reason??? i felt it was because the creators were trying to please those zukoxmako fans........but it ended up horrible...

now the majority hate the mako and some even hate korra because of it......all for love.

sorry for all those makkora shippers here (didn't mean to point fingers)


I just hope this won't happen to Naruto......I'm sure it won't be, but crazy things can happen.

[CloudMountainJuror]

I sure hope kishi isn't a people pleaser (which i'm sure he isn't)

but people pleasing will not help anyone.....for long, maybe for a while.

IT REMINDS ME OF AVATAR.

alot of people wanted katara and zuko to get together even though, there was no evidence or proof that they even liked each other that way.......in fact for some time they disliked each other.

katara always cared for aang the most, there was tons of development and it made too much sense.

well when kataraXaang happened zukoXkatara fans were upset.


so legend of korra comes around (the new avatar series) and the creators practically make a zukoXkatara 2.0 pairing with korra(the heroine) and mako (the love interest) and just made it happen at the end of the season.

problem is....it was way to fast....seemed forced....and they had to break 2 characters hearts and cheat just to make it. it still doesn't make much sense to me......mako literally had to dump an awesome girlfriend who he had no trouble and was happy with...and korra had to reject a nice, fun guy who liked her for herself and didn't try to change her. (and i didn't even ship anyone, thats how i saw it)


reason??? i felt it was because the creators were trying to please those zukoxmako fans........but it ended up horrible...

now the majority hate the mako and some even hate korra because of it......all for love.

sorry for all those makkora shippers here (didn't mean to point fingers)


I just hope this won't happen to Naruto......I'm sure it won't be, but crazy things can happen.

I agree 100% with you about the Korra and Mako relationship. Looking back on the first season altogether, Korra was a huge disappointment with the exception of a few characters (two of which died by the end). The incredibly rushed/forced MaKorra ending was another reason the show suffered. In fact, I spent quite a bit of time ranting about it. I uploaded a 14 minute rant on YouTube about the ending of Korra season 1 a long time ago. XD

Edited by zacrathedemon5, 29 December 2012 - 09:02 AM.

[Namaenash]

I got it.


I'll be honest, I wasn't interested in the Naruto vs Sasuke fight in the first place because...well we know how it is going to end. Sasuke will get 100% redeemed and 100% forgiven. He won't die and won't get punished in anyway. If something else different happens then I will happily surprised. Seeing how we know how the fight is going to end up, I never found interest in it.

What got me interested was the possible NS pairing scenes we were going to get or NS interaction. It's shallow, but still I can't lie. If Kishi decides to not do that and decides to go with NH instead, then now I lost all interest in the ending to the manga. Seems like nothing matters after that point. This is still a big case of if and why.

Lol. I see what you did there.
Exactly, people would loose interest wouldn't it? Nothing matters anymore since most of the questions have been answered now. Most likely Sasuke will be redeemed. If he does, most likely Sakura will be there to take care of him --God forbid. Naruto and Sasuke will both survive their fight, if not, what's the point of cementing NH now, if the main character is about to die later. The point is, I foresee a lot of people will lost interest if Kishi's keep going like this..

[merryGOflava]

I agree 100% with you about the Korra and Mako relationship. Looking back on the first season altogether, Korra was a huge disappointment with the exception of a few characters (two of which died by the end). The incredibly rushed/forced MaKorra ending was another reason the show suffered. In fact, I spent quite a bit of time ranting about it. I uploaded a 14 minute rant on YouTube about the ending of Korra season 1 a long time ago. XD

dude....i dont want this to happen to narusaku

Edited by merryGOflava, 29 December 2012 - 09:07 AM.

[CloudMountainJuror]

dude....i dont want this to happen to narusaku

Asami... T_T Such a better character than both Mako and Korra.

[Codus N]

I honestly doubt it would get to his desk. Even though it's a nice thought, the fandom still shouldn't influence a series like this.

I agree. But I kinda sometimes wish Kishi had twitter or something, like Mashima and Kubo. Woul'd've been nice. Not only that, getting to be able to interact with your mangaka is a great feeling, it also makes them aware they have other fans, not just in Japan. Our very own LadyGt and zippi from DA had the honor to be complimented for their drawings by Mashima too. Something simple like giving your drawings as a gift to your favorite mangaka and being replied to is a very precious feeling. That's what I kinda wish would happen with Kishi.

I think what my biggest problem with Kishi's writing has been lately is connected to a quote I posted in the 615 thread.

“I don’t know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody.” – Bill Cosby

I believe Kishi doesn't understand this, he's built up such a large cast of characters that translate to a massive and incredibly varied fanbase that he wants to give everyone the spotlight, he wants every hero to achieve their goals even if those goals are in direct conflict with another characters goals that he will take any opportunity to give the character what he feels they deserve, and most of the time as is 615 it comes off as incredibly rushed, incredibly forced and is often out of place in the larger context of the plot or in the case of 615 steps over a beloved character just to force development of another.

There's also the problem of how characters have to develop and how it affects those around them, it's been brought up a lot over the last few days but its true Naruto regressed as a character, what happened to his conviction, it simply dissapeared, whats worse as he started to believe in Obito's words which he shouldn't, Pain destroyed Konoha, killed Kakashi and Jiraiya (characters with much greater importance to Naruto) and countless others, plus seemed to kill Hinata as well as directly oppose and refute Naruto's belief. But with all that Naruto still did not falter, he didn't forgive Nagato but he wouldn't kill him, he would not create more pain. In 615 all that is gone, replaced with a weak willed boy who would drop his beliefs at the slightest chance of failure just to give Hinata her moment. It destroys one character to empower another, but it isn't just any character being destroyed, its the titular character.

And the problem is it's easy to see why he does this. Why wouldn't you try to please everybody? It happens a lot with popular stories that have large fanbases, you've built up such good will that you wish to reward the fanbase that it often blinds you to your original goals. I don't believe its editorial mandate or Kishi folding to fan pressure or anything, its simply one man trying to please everybody when its detrimental to the overall quality because you simply cannot please everybody.

I think this post is a very good assessment of what's going on so far in Kishi's mind.

[Chucky-kun]

Kishi has dug himself a hole, and we will come out of this either amazed, or disappointed.

[James S Cassidy]

Kishi has dug himself a hole, and we will come out of this either amazed, or disappointed.

You know what the best part about being in a hole? There is no where to go, but up, unless you are dumb enough to dig deeper.

[Namaenash]

You know what the best part about being in a hole? There is no where to go, but up, unless you are dumb enough to dig deeper.

Yup, let's wait and see. I hope Kishi will be able to fix his consistency. Sakura has been the one keeping Naruto on the line all the while now, even in RtN movie, she still has her role. Now, out of sudden it's been taken away ;( that or Kishi is planning something bigger for her. She isn't perfect, that's for sure, unlike the other girl... But surprisingly, that imperfection is what makes her character attachable.

I'll keep my expectation low though... If Kishi could pull something as grand as RtN, in terms of Sakura's role, I'd be more than pleased...

Edited by Namaenash, 29 December 2012 - 10:40 AM.

[Weltall]

Ah, so it was you. I've been right about a number of things in this story as well (Orochimaru's return is my favorite, since I had big arguments with some of my friends over my certainty, lol), and in all the fandoms I've followed over the years I've been right about every final pairing so far. So I am very keen to see if Kishimoto will ultimately break my winning streak.



As Spock (Prime) said in Wrath of Khan, "A distinct possibility." Fans are so swayed by their emotions. When we feel threatened or don't get what we want the way we want it, there is often an overwhelming temptation to say everything sucks. But when the pendulum swings back the other way -- assuming it does -- much, if not all, is forgiven. Or at least it doesn't seem as ugly and sucky.

We shall see.



I have to admit I agree with this. Anyone who reads my posts here knows I don't care for Hinata at all. She makes me want to go HULKSMASH. We can only hope that Kishimoto has a good reason for what he's doing, not an insane one.

I have been in the same boat before when all hope was lost for tobi to be Obito, he was Madara or Izuna or any other Uchiha other than Obito and me arguing the contrary, it's just that now I have stopped the arguing since I know for a fact it leads to nothing and you can't change people's minds and beliefs when they are already made and yeah Oro's return was pretty obvious I may not like everything he does but he's quite good at foreshadowing future events.

You know how it is people live in the "now" what matters is what is happening right now not what has happened before or what has been foreshadowed a long time ago.

What Hinata is doing right now has been foreshadowed not too long ago so I don't see why people are surprised there's so much focus on her right now, it has been just 2 chapters and only one of them was really Hinata centric, but contrary to you as forced as it was I enjoyed her this chapter and I think Kishi did a good job since a long time with her character.

I just want him to fix it. That's all I am asking. I don't think I can see him as a "great" writer anymore unless he does something that really wows me.

What do you want him to fix exactly ? Personally I think it's too late for him to fix anything I have lost interest a long time ago I could care less if NH and SS happen I'm just 100% sure NS is the endgame, it's the same pattern over and over again Kishi makes something obvious then later on he throw things here and there to mislead people while still making things ambiguous enough so that people keeps on guessing just to come back to the most obvious choice all along.

Edited by Weltall, 29 December 2012 - 10:50 AM.