357 replies to this topic

[neoshadow]

So either a mistake on Kishimoto's part or they carved Minato's head then decided they didn't like it, destroyed it and redid it later on.
Also something I always wondered prior to this chapter was if there could be genin teams not made up of boy boy girl, its nice to see a team made up of 3 boys. That being Gai's team.

Edited by neoshadow, 30 August 2012 - 12:05 AM.

[rockwill]

Here's my theory

Obito activates his Mangekyō Sharingan while the rock was still crushing him goes to the dimension materializes himself a little ways from there. He finds a zetsu clone and merges with it to restore his right arm. Heals up in his dimension which may also cause him to age as well and returns to the leaf to find out that rin was killed during a mission. he blames the world and the ninja system for taking away his love and works on a way to change it. he finds out about madara's moon eye plan and decides to continue that plan. He realizes that an uchiha would be the only one who can stop him and captures nine tales to put the blame on the uchihas for the attack while also getting revenge on the leaf village for letting rin die. he creates an alias to prevent his master from recognizing him and dons a mask. The events of naruto's birth happens and so on.

what do you guys think?

[Paptala]

I really enjoyed the chapter - the panels without any dialogue were nicely done, and it just made me adore Obito all over again. The focus on his unrequited love for Rin was too heartbreakingly adorable.

No surprise that Tobi turned out to be Obito, though I am almost certain that Obito is either being possessed by Tobi, or being manipulated/mind screwed by something, because there are just too many factors that don't add up without there being some third party having a hand in things.

Seeing the jounin generation as kids was a nice treat - Asuma looks really cute, especially with Kurenai by his side - Hayate looks exactly like Suigetsu there though

I always thought that Team Minato was the most powerful and obvious parallel to compare Team 7, even more so than Team Sannin. This chapter just confirmed and augmented my believe on it.

It was pretty heart wrenching to see Obito suffer from his one sided crush on Rin, it really took a good part of the chapter. When I began reading I thought that his love was just gonna get a quick reference in one panel, but it was really focused on in all of the chapter. Kishi wants to make it a point that Obito's love for Rin will play a role in the next chapters to come.

I'm pretty sure that, whether Tobi's memories are of Obito or not, he's disappointed that Kakashi failed to protect Rin when he vowed to do so. Whoever Tobi is probably thinks that even though Kakashi wanted to fulfill his wishes in the end the Shinobi world is a hopeless one that will fill you with despair, therefore the Moon's Eye plan is the best solution for a happy ending for all.

I really thought that the scars on Tobi's face were actually wrinkles. Goes to show how terribly wrong I was.

I have mentioned it before but it was pretty sad when I first read Kakashi Gaiden when I saw Obito's death scene. It really hurt to see him lament on not being able to confess to Rin, he looked to be filled with so much regret. And now this chapter let's us know that Obito was building up the courage to actually confess (he even wanted to do it during Sakura season, Kishi's not being subtle there) but was stopped because of Kakashi's promotion party which immediately was followed by the events of the Gaiden. I can't help but think that on their way to rescue Rin from the rock ninja Obito was probably thinking that once that whole mess was over he would surely confess to Rin properly. Now Obito's death looks even more tragic in my eyes.

So lets look at it so far. Kishi has made Jiraiya, Obtio and Naruto (which are all parallels of each other) to suffer from unrequited love through their lives. Then he kill off Obito before he gets the chance to confess to Rin and later kill of Jiraiya just when Tsunade was ready to finally return his feelings.

For the love of all please Kishi make Naruto finally succeed in getting the girl he has always loved the most. Please make him succeed where the previous two failed. The new generation most succeed where the previous failed.

I hope the whole point of Naruto surpassing them if for him to finally get Sakura and not for him to just simply confess because the other two couldn't. Well, taking into account Naruto's never give up personality I'm gonna guess it's the former.

Ultimate this.

Obito is the definition of lost hope. He found out that the only peace is to escape reality. Judging from the flashback, I can't blame him. The whole character of him is a tragic work.

Now I am convinced. Naruto MUST surpass the old generation. I am solid on NaruSaku now. Kishi really plays romance into a serious factor now if Obito's one of the reason is Rin. It amazes me to see how much his life with her plays a lot in the flashback. I know Naruto might hear them talking and if Rin comes to the subject, I bet Naruto might think Sakura at one point. Naruto will be the first to accomplish this. Moving on to Hinata is a scapegoat and has no impact whatsoever. Sakura has a huge impact because she is a "impossible" task to deal. She loves Sasuke while Naruto loves her. It's one-sided love (to his view), so having together will be hard, especially if the girl's love seems "strong." Obito didn't give up, but he was in pain. The sad truth is that he never got to tell Rin. Jiraiya gets rejected everytime, but there was a chance, which unfortunately dies before he knows it. Naruto is holding his feelings to the end, but it is scary for him that the chance of him dying is there and could end up the same as them. Their glory romance moments were never seen. Naruto is the only one left.

Yeah, I can't wait for next week. I am so hyped.

I would be a pretty sad ending if all three boys ending with unrequited loves.

That would be like saying that even if you become a determined person like Naruto you'll never be able to get the girl you like. And that the only way to get her attention is to be born a handsome talented genius.

If Sakura ended with Sasuke that would be like saying that hard work and determination will never get you anywhere because even though that's how Jiraiya, Obito and Naruto are in the end the girl they liked never liked them back.

Worst ending ever!

These posts convey my thoughts on the chapter extremely well, especially regarding the parallels - and the parallels are just too blatant to overlook or dismiss here, imo. Kishi isn't even being subtle about the pattern he is setting up here.

I completely agree that it really wouldn't make sense to have Naruto also fail like Obito and Jiriya before him. Even getting Hinata will feel like a consolation prize. It's about winning over the heart of someone whom you loved with all your heart, not about ending up with the girl you barely interacted with before she confessed her love for her, and definitely not about the object of those unrequited affections getting her cool and genuis ninja.

Especially given that Tobi is saying that dreams are completely unattainable in the end, and being completely pessimistic - Naruto is going to prove him wrong, and is going to succeed where those before him failed - it just would not make sense otherwise.

Edited by Paptala, 30 August 2012 - 12:14 AM.

[TerrorKing]

Great chapter! I loved the flashbacks and like others have already pointed out, the fact that Kishi chose to convey them without speach just made them all the more powerful. It's almost scary how similar ObiRin and NaruSaku is, which only serves to make the whole thing even more tragic.

As for Tobi being Obito. Well, it's already been heavily hinted at in the previous chapters. I don't really know how to feel about it yet. It both intrigues and puzzles me.

It intrigues me because of how good natued Obtio was, so I am now very eager to find out exactly why he became evil. Also I wan't to see how Rin could possibly fit into all of this. However, it puzzles me because it just doesn't seem to add up in terms of power levels and just the overall timeline.

So right now I'm just waiting for Kishi to explain exactly how all this fits together. Personally, I think this is some sort of FrankenObito. Twisted and mad from experimentation and driven by an external power.

Very much looking forward to chapter 600!

[Hiraishin]

Seeing the jounin generation as kids was a nice treat - Asuma looks really cute, especially with Kurenai by his side - Hayate looks exactly like Suigetsu there though

I agree! Asuma looked adorable.
And I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought Hayate looked like Suigetsu! For a moment there, I was like, "Suigetsu!?" Aha...

This chapter gave me so many feels. I just love Obito, okay? ;_;

[Toasty Warrior]

I think Kishimoto may have tried to put a genjustu on us, but I was able to break through it and find out who Tobi really is:

The Truth --Click here to view--

SMASHING!

Edited by Toasty Warrior, 30 August 2012 - 02:20 AM.

[neoshadow]

I think Kishimoto may have tried to put a genjustu on us, but I was able to break through it and find out who Tobi really is:

The Truth --Click here to view--

SMASHING!

Well at least that clears up all the confusion about the timeline now

[catsi563]

I agree! Asuma looked adorable.
And I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought Hayate looked like Suigetsu! For a moment there, I was like, "Suigetsu!?" Aha...

This chapter gave me so many feels. I just love Obito, okay? ;_;

Interesting you mention that. When you look at it doesnt Asuma look like Sasuke and Kurenai look like Karin and theres a guy in the back who looks like Juugo.

[harry4e]

NOOO DONT SAY THAT!!!......dont....awww my feels they are being stomped on......

rin....
tsunade..
saura...

why.....plz....sakura stop this friendzone madness!! STOP it!!! its killing boys!!....literally!!!!

Actually if anything this works more in favour of NaruSaku pairing than anything else, Jiraiya/Tsunade, Yahiko/Konan, (or maybe it's Negato/Konon?) Rin/Obito, are all about boys who loved a girl but never got their happy ending, Tsunade never looked beyond the pervert to see who the man infront of her until it was too late, Rin only looked at Kakashi until it was too late, Yakito had a war to fight, to give his relationship with Kanon a chance. Now what is the main plot of Naruto? It's carrying the burdens of his peers and getting right the things the things they couldn't.

He won't die before his dream is achieved like Yahiko, he won't give up his dream for world peace like Jiraiya did after Minato died, he won't give into the darkness like Obito, (Which is why Kishi probably made Obito the villain, to give us an idea what would happen if Naruto gave up) he will save his best friend unlike Jiraiya, AND he will get the girl he loves unlike Obito, Jiraiya and Yahiko.

yes it was pointed out earlier there is no definitive answer in either way from the manga it was just assumed that he was not Hokage yet but he might have been

maybe Kishi will edit it out though compare this



to here



yondaime's head is not there

Yeah this chapter is full of plotholes, from Kakashi getting promoted too late (he was originally promoted when he was seven or something) to Minato being Hokage (he was made Hokage for his exploits during the third ninja war, with the pivotal moment actually being just after Obito died with the distruction of the bridge.)

[Dreamer]

It was etched in stone from the beginning >Ch. 16<

[James S Cassidy]

Can I ask something?

Why do people keep thinking Obito's body was merged with a Zetsu-clone? I know the relationship between Zetsu and Tobi (Look I know it is Obito, but I am going to keep calling him Tobi. Zetsu continued to call him Tobi too) was a close one, but I am nt understanding where this theory came from. Can anyone explain this one to me?

[harry4e]

Can I ask something?

Why do people keep thinking Obito's body was merged with a Zetsu-clone? I know the relationship between Zetsu and Tobi (Look I know it is Obito, but I am going to keep calling him Tobi. Zetsu continued to call him Tobi too) was a close one, but I am nt understanding where this theory came from. Can anyone explain this one to me?

Well it's the fact that even though he is scarred his body isn't crushed, the way his arm fell off after getting hit by Minato's Rasengan was not natural, and the fact he constant uses the MS's Kamui power yet he doesn't bleed or go blind. (yet he doesn't have EMS) So it would suggest he must have been altered somehow, that allows him to regrow limbs and use the MS without the drawbacks,having the first Hokage's DNA could possably negate the negative effects of the MS, ie the body and the eyes of the Sage of the six paths.

Edited by harry4e, 30 August 2012 - 03:52 AM.

[Derock]

You know what's funny? If you looked back into this chapter, you noticed that Guy BEATEN Obito twice. TWICE!!! Don't you think he was resurrected to defeat Guy once and for all? (I know its silly, but still).

[James S Cassidy]

Well it's the fact that even though he is scarred his body isn't crushed, the way his arm fell off after getting hit by Minato's Rasengan was not natural, and the fact he constant uses the MS's Kamui power yet he doesn't bleed or go blind. (yet he doesn't have EMS) So it would suggest he must have been altered somehow, that allows him to regrow limbs and use the MS without the drawbacks,having the first Hokage's DNA could possably negate the negative effects of the MS, ie the body and the eyes of the Sage of the six paths.

Okay, but if that were true, then how come the other Zetsu-clones do not do the same thing? That whole regenerating thing and such. I don't recall any moment of the clones doing any such a thing. Tobi seems to be able to take a beating and regenerate, the others seem a little more fragile with one being taken out with only one Sakura punch.

Forgive me, but I am not seeing the connection.

[Darth Krypt]

It has been confirmed that he has Senju DNA when he explained the use of Izanagi after killing Konan.

[Konohakitten]

I cant believe that the rumor that started when Tobi first appeared in Akatsuki about him being Obito turned out to be true. I wasn't shocked that Tobi is Obito, I think what I'm more focused on is a good reason why. I'm sorry but if his whole reasoning for taking over the world is over Rin's death is going to be stupid. He needs to have one damn good reason, and not getting the girl in the end isn't good enough. That and I want to know if its really Obito, like with his original soul, or if someone is just using his body.

One thing I found funny was how many times Guy kept kicking his ass. It makes the comment that Tobi told Guy a few chapters ago even better XD I knew if Tobi wasn't Obito he had to be someone very close. Especially when Tobi told Guy that revealing his identity wouldn't do any good since Guy is horrible with faces. So for now we wait for next week, I just hope Kishi does a flash back instead of going back to Sasuke.

[Transformers03]

Unlike some people, I was never against the idea of Tobi being Obito, but when I first heard it I thought it didn't make sense. Why I didn't think it made sense was because of the reasons that we listed on this thread, and it was mainly timeline thing. But like I said, I was never against the idea.

Having skimed/skipped a lot of the war arc, I still have to say that this probably one of the best chapters in the entire series....no joke. I say that because I'm mostly a fan of the anime, as the action scenes in the manga are hard to follow at times and I believe the anime improves on certain events in the manga (i.e. the Team 7 reunion, Naruto meeting Kushina, etc...). That's, of course, just my preference, and I haven't read all the chapters of the manga, so there maybe more gold among those chapters. But this chapter completely benefited from being on page, because I don't think the silent treatment will work in the anime version. I believe they will ad voices and music to the anime, which will get rid of the main emotional appeal of the chapter. While I do admit knowing some dialogue will be helpful, especially in learning of what the hell Rin whispered to Obito, but it wouldn't be as emotionally appealing as it was in the manga.

I just want to say this now, I never really cared for Obito beforehand. I just saw him as a Naruto clone, and while his death scene was sad (an other moment that I thought the anime improved), I didn't really care that much because I knew he was going to die in the end. Admittedly my two favorite parts of the Kakashi Gaiden episodes/chapters was Obito's death scene, and when he called Kakashi trash for abandoning Rin. So you could say he was my favorite part of those Gaiden episodes, but then again I really didn't care for those episodes/chapters that much. Besides the main focus of those episodes was to explore more Kakashi's back story, it didn't really develop Obito too much nor did it give Rin much of a personality or any development. In fact, cause we knew so little about those two characters, that when Obito was dying and saying that he wished he could've told Rin that he loved her I was like "Wait.....I thought you were just friends..." Of course it makes sense, as he was the one who wanted to save her, and it kind of echoed of what I thought of Naruto's promise of the lifetime; I was surprise by it, but I still thought it made sense. I think it's that parallel to Naruto that makes him more appealing to others, but to me I never really cared about that.

However, in this fifteen page chapter, not only did I started liking his character (a lot in fact), but now I want to see him redeemed. Having the story start off in flashback, with Obito, was genius in my opinion in how to reveal Tibo's identity. When I found out that the previous chapter ended with Tobi's mask shatter, but didn't reveal his identity, I thought one of two possibilities will happen. 1) That they were going to pad things out, until they reveal his identity at the end, which would have made it a filler chapter, and ultimately a wasted chapter, or 2) They reveal in the first page, and then they will show us his "tragic" back story, which will just come off as "Look, and feel sorry for me." However the chapter did something even better. Not only did it still reveal Tobi's identity in the first page, it also hold off the actual 'unmasking' until the very end. Also, instead of seeing a bad guy recalling his past to reveal how he become bad, it showed the character's back story before the reveal, and they made us like him (for some, it made them like him again, or reminded them why they like him).

Also, starting the chapter in flashback, and showing Obito's story before his big reveal at the last page, was a smart move for numerous reasons. 1) Since it has been like five or six years since those Gaiden chapters came out, this was a great reminder of who Obito was, and it developed him more properly. 2) The uncanny resemblance between him and Naruto already establishes an emotional connection between the audience and him. 3) It made him a very likable character, and very sympathetic, that by the end, even though you already know how it's going to end, it still makes you feel a little upset of how he turned out. 4) Now that the character has been sympathetic through the viewer's eyes, we now want to see the character not only stopped, but redeemed. In only fifteen pages, Obito is already a lot more sympathetic villain(or anti-hero) than Sasuke is, because, well, he was good person before he became a bad guy. Not emo duece who had his moments.

Obito's story in this chapter was surprisingly very sad, and emotional. While in comparison with other character's back story, his is probably not as tragic (well, not at least until got smashed by a giant rock, and 'died'). Sure he was a loser, and he couldn't get the girl he always liked, but compared to some more tragic back stories (like Sasuke's and Nagato's) his is not that bad. What made it work was 1) there was no dialogue, so everything conveyed in action which was done well, 2) Obito and Rin's friendship was really well established, and it was very reminiscing of Naruto and Sakura's friendship (I swear in the panels where they are smiling at each other near the bench (benches like those keep coming up) that Kishi used an original drawing of Naruto and Sakura, and just inked it differently), and 3) you grew to like Obito because of the connections he has with Naruto, and, just like Naruto, we genuinely wanted to see him succeed. You wanted to see him to get with Rin, because you could tell that was the goal he was aiming for, to win her over. Like I said, their friendship was well establish, but to see Rin liking an other guy while Obito just watches is truly heart breaking. At least Rin's crush on Kakashi was as annoyingly distracting as Sakura's crush on Sasuke.

While I didn't really mind some of the continuity problems, my only real problem is that the Team 7 parallel feels to much on the nose. It was pretty obvious beforehand, but when you start swearing that the characters not only look like them (excluding Kakashi), they also act like them (talking about Naruto and Sakura here), that's when you stop having any resemblance of subtlety. But I don't care, this is probably one of the most emotional flashback chapters in the entire series.

[Nefertieh]

disappointing --Click here to view--

How did Obito even survive getting crushed, I'm pretty sure he would have at least gotten some brain damage, come to think about it that might be why he lost it.

Science: --Click here to view--

There have been reports where in real life, some children have to have had large parts of their brains removed due to rare medical conditions. However, those children have been able to cope relatively well in life because their brains have been able to adapt to it. There is also Phineas Gage, who managed to survive for several years after a pole impaled a huge section from his brain.

Edited by Nefertieh, 30 August 2012 - 07:54 AM.

[Nefertieh]

Tobi's motivation... --Click here to view--

I think it's too simplistic to base all his world-domination ambitions on jealousy and thwarted love. Especially when he and Kakashi made their peace at the end of the Kakashi Gaiden arc. Obito gave him his eye. There was resolution in his story. It doesn't make sense for him to go off and be mad about it later.

Tobi's motivation... --Click here to view--

No, but it is possible that he is upset that Kakashi failed to protect Rin. I think Kishimoto probably thought having Obito (and possibly Rin) alive was far more interesting than just Kakashi's background filler. He did always promise another Kakashi story arc.

Haha, I wasn't really expecting it to be Obito! Of all people, it had to be the most obvious..... Kinda confused about how it is him, and I hope we get to see that in the next chapter.

When I was reading the chapter I kinda skipped ahead a couple 10 pages, and I saw Obito and Rin..... is it just me, or do they really resemble Naruto and Sakura? Even the facial gestures. Anyways, I found this chapter pretty sad. Poor Obito.....

They do look similar, especially if you look at how Kishimoto draws Sakura's eyes, with a double fold and all. But I had always thought it was strange how Rin was adamant to confess her love to Kakashi when Obito had just died. >_>

Edited by Nefertieh, 30 August 2012 - 09:27 AM.