204 replies to this topic

[Onionhead Attacks]

Warning, rant ahead!

I may be in the minority, but I sometimes like to have things the "old school" way. I don't know why, but having the option to go from something classic to something more modern is an option that I'd like to have. Sort of like how windows gives customize-able options to chose the classic windows look or default windows OS look (XP, Vista, 7). It's a little nostalgic and brings back memories of the years I've been on ff.net and the changes it has gone through. Like I said, I may be in the minority for that and may be asking for too much.

That's mainly one of the reasons why I'm not that receptive of the change ff.net has made recently. I'm one of the those creatures of habit and takes a while to adapt to changes and even then I'm not even sure I'll even like the changes. Sort of like the old story and user traffic stats. I prefer the old legacy view over the newer (well, not new now!) and fancier bar graphs. When the story covers were introduced, I realized that it may be a hit or miss feature for me. Some people were dying for it and for a more artful site. The logo and site design would've sufficed imo like what they had back in the days of yore, but I guess they went the other route for adding it directly to stories. I didn't like it because in the past I've been on websites where posters, banners, gifs, and way too many images were displayed on the screen for the stories that it made scrolling through the list of stories kind of annoying. It was an explosion of sparkly, blinking, and many different sized images on the screen. When ff.net didn't have the story covers it kept the focus mainly on the text and I was quite happy with that. Now, I see images everywhere and it refracts from the joy of reading the story summary. Now, all I see are those darn images that attracts my immediate attention! (which I suppose is the point, but is a nuisance to me)

The review button... I swear that thing is constantly changing! In the past it was sort of like it was now with a form at the end of the chapter like those seen on blogs, then it was removed, a drop down choice selector was added just to review, then a review link was added, and THEN the button was added, and now they're back to the form on the bottom of the chapter! I wish that they'd just make up their mind! Note: my complaint isn't about the review form, but that they can't make up their mind!

There is one feature I'd like for the reviews to have that a lot of other sites have. I'm sure that it's been mentioned before, but it's the option to directly reply to a review in the review page for explanations if a FAQ page isn't possible to have, especially if an author must link to his/her profile page and then it gets removed and later reviews must be answered all over again. I used to reply in my story at the very bottom but rules changed, some people had replies taking up over half their stories, which caused misguided lengths, and so on and so forth. Now, not only does a PM only answer just ONE person's questions, authors will have to answer the same questions repeatedly, not answer at all, or link to their profile page. It's inconvenient.

Oh yes, the main reason I wanted to reply to the post, not for my rant, mind you, is to talk about the anonymous reviews! I haven't updated in a long while so I haven't been getting much reviews lately, just favorites and alerts and whatnot. The main reason why I don't like having anonymous reviews is because I won't be able to know just WHO that person reviewing is if I want to reply to his/her message! At least with a logged in user I can click on the link and PM him/her. There's no way in doing that especially if he/she doesn't leave an email, which I'm not too fond of doing especially if one wants to stay anonymous (keep internet and real life separate) without having to make a whole new email for that purpose---that's what the PM's or reply to each review on the review page option are for!

Also, I'm probably in the suuuuuppper minority that doesn't like social media. It's taken over our lives! Which I suppose isn't uncommon in this day and age, but having it directly linked to everything is sort of annoying. I don't fb (but I used to), tweet, use tumblr, google+ or anything so although handy to have those features available for sharing and logging in, I feel like social media is seeping into every little part of our lives. It's just... is personal space from too much social media too much to ask for? Almost every single website has a social media link or option somewhere which makes casual anonymous surfing kind of awkward. I can't even read an article I saw off of yahoo without my fb showing that I read it. It's happened with a friend and I found it strange just being able to know what they're reading without them actually posting it themselves. It's like an invasion of privacy in some way. It's creepy.

The only thing I do like, is how easy it is to use the pairing filter! I suppose it isn't handy for searching for their favorite characters (more than 2) but it works great for looking for pairings! I tried yourfanfiction.com and it was a mess... I couldn't sort out pairings even with their two character sorters that I just gave up in the end. Especially since people don't state their pairings often! The other nice feature that I found useful is the summary box that appears in each story now. It makes remembering what you clicked a lot easier, especially if one opens a few stories at a time like I tend to do. I forget which one was which and what the story was about, so it's wonderful!

The other little changes of ff.net don't bother me much, but these are the highlights that stand out to me.

RANT OVER.

Okay, like I stated earlier, I may be in the minority, but these are just what I feel and this is the only place I feel comfortable ranting. Sorry for the long rant!

[KnS]

Warning, rant ahead!

I agree with you about the images being distracting. I'm not fond of the boggling array of sparkly nonsense. Give me the text. That's what I'm there to read and present.

Also, you're not alone in disliking the inescapable social media links. I despise FB with every fiber of my being and don't use it. I'm so sick and tired of its creepy, malignant tendrils growing into everything, everywhere. As far as I'm concerned, FB should die in a fire.

[tricksie]

[color="darkorange"]And any violent contents are considered Rated MA, like your Voice In the Wind fic and like my Yellow Flash Duo Trilogy. The problem is that they have a big issue to resolve with all shonen manga and anime fanfiction that are deemed to have a significant level of physical violence. Do they realize that Shonen manga and anime are packed with gruesome, blood and gore like we've seen mangas in Naruto, Bleach and many others? Do they expect us to write High School fics now that violence in any form has been banned from their site?

Exactly. Any fics that have violent scenes fall under a possible rule-breaker category according to their vague rules. And the arbitrary purge of some, and not all, stories means that at any time they could tighten their rules and crack down on other stories. Including mine and yours.

So, I don't care what changes they make. It doesn't matter whether they are worthwhile or not. Because before all of these little changes were introduced, they rattled the foundations of their site by arbitrarily erasing content. They have undermined their users' trust in the community. And in the grand scheme of things, if a bigger/better site comes along, users will gladly jump ship to a site that offers a more user-friendly community. Period.

I am faced with a dilemma: I'd like to put in some steamy scenes later on. But this opens me up to possible deletion. So what do I do? Risk having my entire story deleted? Or post part on ff.net and part on my dA account or some other site?

See what I mean? I can't trust ff.net to honor their policies. So I'm already tacitly looking at backup options.

Which brings me to another point:

@desaix, I get what you're saying about ff.net being too big to die. I don't think it will every go away. But I do think it's days are numbered as big site it is now.

What if dA rolled out a really slick sister site for writers, encompassing fanfic and any other writing you may have, as well as integrating it with the visual arts side of their site? Imagine what legitimacy it would give to writers who write more than just ff? Imagine being able to write fanfic, keep a blog page and wrap in any artwork you might create for the fics, all in one place? And on a website that encourage you to link outside the site to other personal links (ff.net has recently stripped that ability). And imagine a site with the ability to create fangroups for certain fics or authors, and have those groups easy to see and navigate from the story?

Don't despair of there not being a better site out there. If anything, these changes are probably in response to the publicity from 50 shades. But to my eye, these surface-level tweaks wouldn't be enough to stand up to a fully integrated writer's site. And something like that — a site that will pull writers in droves, a site with a great community and is welcoming to authors and readers — won't necessarily pop up within a week or two of the purge.

So, I guarantee that some folks are already sizing up how they can build a better writer's site, a better community, a better brand, and capitalize on the dedicated fanbase and their ability to generate content. With 50 shades, fanfic is definitely moving more main stream. And someone soon is going to put out a new site that reflects that.

(I would, but I want to write. But we've seriously talked about putting out a competitor site, with member pages, text and artwork, exactly like what I envisioned above. So if I've thought about it, then I'm sure others have too.)

Also, don't ever underestimate the changing seas of the interwebs. There are plenty of huge sites that have fallen by the wayside for bigger and better things. Remeber Myspace? Perfect example. It's still there, but it's just a shadow of its former self, replaced by the more user-friendly Facebook. I predict ff.net will go that way as well. All it needs now is the new site to replace it.

And these jarring changes will only hasten the steady leak of users and open the door wider for competitors.

[Codus N]

I like the idea of dA replacing FF.net with a sister site specifically tailored for fanfiction. And let's not forget dA is definitely a BIG name out there, so it very well could be the next FF.net

[BlackBee]

Firstly, not angry at all.

Okay then mad? Annoyed? Because that's how you are coming across.

Secondly, I allow anon reviews, I don't care that much. But I know some authors receive terrible reviews and anon reviews aren't even enabled for their stories. A "deal with it" attitude isn't going to work. Sure, you can delete the review after you have already seen it's really bad and hurtful. Taking measures that prevent that are important, why take it away for people who want it? I'm on the "I don't care side" and I have never received a terrible review, but I have seen others get said reviews and I understand their situation and where they are coming from completely and so should you.

You don't kittening tell me what to do...lol I kid.

In all seriousness it's sweet that you want to defend everybody from mean reviews but as you just pointed out, blocking all non reviews isn't going to prevent those kind of 'mean' and 'hurtful' reviews. Besides when you put up a story in public you have to be able to take reviews of all kinds. And I do understand because I've been through it when I was younger and just starting out(for the record it was on a Pong story so I figured out it was a troll. It was when I decided to seriously express my creativity and look for improvement that I realized that blocking all anon reviews will hurt more than help).

But really that whole thing is personal for everyone and I can't argue my own personal experience against it. All I can argue is that objectively, this new anon review moderation thing isn't as bad as you say it is because you can still block anon reviews before they are published and still remove them if they somehow get through. And it's beneficial because now you can read the positive anon reviews.

But if personal advice is needed then all that can be said is grow thicker skin or try reading the reviews from a different perspective.

One bad anon review. Is it helpful?
-No? Don't let it be published. Or if it is published because you couldn't get to it in time, delete it. Or ignore it.

Yes? Then you can still delete it but the best thing to do would be to publish it, listen to whatever helpful advice it gives, and respond to the concerns or whatever it raises in the A/N of the next chapter.

Several bad reviews. Are they helpful?
-No? Ask yourself if you have pissed anyone off lately. You might be the target of a revenge raid. Or hell you might just be the unlucky target of bored trolls. Either way, they are attacking you for you and for a petty reason and not your story so what does their opinion matter?

-Alternatively, look back on your behavior on the site. Some authors are arrogant/mean/have a HUGE sense of entitlement. Obviously that can rub people the wrong way so you may need to adjust how you respond to reviews and/or not hold chapters for hostage(like demand 30 reviews before you post another chapter) or whatever bad behavior you have lol.

-Yes? Then something is apparently wrong with your story and unless you want to give up you need to take the steps to fix it. Find a beta reader. Look up writing guides online. Find a writer's community. Do whatever you need to improve.

I work in the IT department at my university, it is NOT that hard to create some of the features that I suggested. Adding the ability to leave a reply on a review in theory is much easier than creating an entirely new feature that involved uploading images to a server and applying said images to only certain stories that a given user might have while at the same time limiting the amount of images they can have based on how many stories they have. It does not take an entire IT department to add simple things, nor does it cost a lot of money.

Dammit I saw this reply coming. Okay then maybe it's just me who would find it hard.

-They already have a feature that will email/alert users if they subscribe to you period. A simple solution would be to add something that is similar to how a story or community works, but for alerts. For example, you can have a "story" that is simply for author notes or blogs right now, but that is against the rules. But essentially, that is all they would need to do to create a feature like that, or something similar. This is just the simplest way I believe it can be applied.

Yeah but how can you guarentee everyone who reads your stories will subscribe to that? And what about people who fav you or your stuff instead of subscribing? What about people who keep an eye on your stuff but haven't faved/reviewed/subscribed yet? what about anon readers? If you want ALL of your readers to be aware of something going on with your story the best way to let them know I think, is to put it in one of the A/Ns of your story.

Or in case of a surprise setback, then let people know ahead of time to check your profile or your forum(s) for any kind of RL updates that would affect the progress of your stories(I have to start doing that actually...).

I think it's a good idea and all but I just don't see it as being that simple . I'm personally hoping for a feature attached to the profiles that allows you to let readers know the progress of your story(like a table of sorts that lists the story and next to it the progress of the next chapter or something. When you are writing the draft or when you are editing or when you are still planning, etc.). Because I use my profile right now and it just looks so cluttered lol. But despite that using my profile still works for me so I just told my readers in one of my A/Ns to check my profile for story updates.

-For comments, they are already similar to how PM's work. Not too difficult to further merge the two.

I guess not.

36 hours is still not impressive at all. There shouldn't be a time limit on those sorts of things. Period.

I was correcting you . But why shouldn't there be a time limit? Just how long do you need to decide whether you want an anon review published or not? I think 36 hours is plenty of time to think 'hmm this review is kind of mean and it isn't helpful at all. I better not let it be published.' or 'this review is really nice and/or helpful! I should let it be published!'.

And let's say you are in a situation where you can't have internet for more than 36 hours. Then again, just go to 'reviews', click on 'remove review', and remove the offending review. Or ignore it.

Whether you broke a rule or not, you STILL need to alert the user of their crimes before getting rid of it. Some authors do not keep copies of their work once they upload it because they assume it's safe. They assume the owners will take care of their property and won't do something as rash as delete it right away.

I get that warnings are needed(and I really do think they should be), but again if you break the rules they are not obligated to be nice to you. You are using their services for free after all. The best I can hope for to combat that is a place dedicated to disputing reports on your story and a much more detailed explanation of the rating system/guidelines(since that is the most unfair way to be reported. So many things can fall under an 'M' rating and as stated, a lot of the works fanfiction is based on could be considered N-17 anyway).

I'm sorry but assuming that something is safe on the internet is dumb. Would you trust this site with important school work or career work? Not to mention it doesn't even hang onto all of your stuff since Doc manager only allows you to upload a certain amount of things for a certain amount of time. One of the first rules of computers is to ALWAYS have a back up for the things you care about.

So I'm sorry but that kind of responsibility falls on the writers, not FF.net.

I did not say the image thing is a problem. What I am saying is, many people requested something like story covers on FF for a very long time. They finally added that and people were very satisfied. They should focus on the things the community wants rather than change up other features that take away permissions from the user.

Oh okay. Sorry I misunderstood your comment.

The "review" situation was changed back from "comment" either late last night or earlier today. Good thing we know that there are humans working behind that website. And that they can read.

No...it was like that way before.

Hmmm....

I think you're missing the big picture, honey. When a site that is kept afloat by user-generated content betrays it's own policies and arbitrarily erases content, it doesn't matter what paltry throw-the-users-a-bone changes they make after the fact.

When users are betrayed, it is very hard to continue being part of that site's community. And on that note, there is no governing body on ff.net, there is no ombudsmen or way to seek recourse if you or your story runs into trouble. It's just a searchable database. It could be so much more....so much more of a resource for writers, not just a site that is built for readers. And hopefully one of the new sites that springs up as a result of ff.net's misstep will be that next generation fanfiction site.

You can debate every point you want. But you're missing the bigger picture of why writers are upset.

What was your ff.net username again? I'd love to read some of your stories. I'd hate to think you signed up for a new account on H&E just to argue about ff.net if you haven't really invested yourself in that site as an author.

Are you sure there's no governing body? One time I sent them an email and I got a personal reply so I'm pretty sure there are people behind the scenes there.

Is the bigger picture that they are upset because they feel screwed over because of the purge and are now attacking every new thing FF.net does because they feel the site is avoiding their questions and concerns over the whole thing?

If not then yeah I guess I am missing it. But I don't understand why attacking the good changes will change one bad decision. If you are unsatisfied with how they handled the purge, let them know you are unsatisfied with that. I don't really understand how the new changes are detreimental since you can still write and upload stories and read/respond to/write reviews like normal. The only thing you can't do anymore is block all anon reviews automatically. But you can still block them or remove them if needed.

But uh, I'll just leave the bigger picture alone and focus on defending the small stuff if that's okay. Because the reason I started posting in this thread is because Sakura Blossoms was talking about getting FF.net to remove all of the new changes.

About my ff.net account...I've actually been here before. I was BabyVee. I even started a thread for my stories. But I can't tell if no one looked at them or gave me help or maybe they did and I just can't recognize them under their FF.net usernames. So...I dunno I'll just save you and everyone else the trouble and say my username here is now different from my username there, but if no one was interested then they probably won't be interested now haha.

Edited by BlackBee, 03 July 2012 - 03:45 AM.

[Sakura Blossoms]

Because the reason I started posting in this thread is because Sakura Blossoms was talking about getting FF.net to remove all of the new changes.

For goodness sakes! Did you even properly read what I had written. At no point did I say I wanted FFnet to remove ALL the new changes. In fact at no point did I say I wanted them to remove anything. I wanted the writers to have the OPTION to opt-in/opt-out of something. Because you know, giving people options makes them feel like they actually have a say in changes that get put in place.

Why are you so angry?

Angry no. Getting increasingly annoyed, yes. My biggest problem with you right now is that you seemed to sign up with H&E just to argue for people to be all honky dory with FFnet's changes. And what's really annoying is the fact that you can't seem to just let people like what they like, or not like what they like. You saw no one here before you started posting, telling anyone else that they shouldn't like FFnet's new changes. If you like the majority of the changes that's fine. In fact that's great, as that's how you feel about it all. Continuing to post these massive posts answering back to each and every little thing someone says, and continually questioning why people don't like certain changes is actually quite arrogant. Just leave it be. You aren't going to change people's minds if they don't like something, and no one here was trying to change anyone else's minds if they do. So, you can point out all day if you so choose why you like the changes, but really stop quoting everyone and trying to force the issue of why we should like them.

[BlackBee]

For goodness sakes! Did you even properly read what I had written. At no point did I say I wanted FFnet to remove ALL the new changes. In fact at no point did I say I wanted them to remove anything. I wanted the writers to have the OPTION to opt-in/opt-out of something. Because you know, giving people options makes them feel like they actually have a say in changes that get put in place.

We have to voice out against these recent badly-made changes. I've seen all over the internet where people say they are now turned off from leaving reviews, because it's such an inconvenience to have to opt-out or deselect the pre-selected 'author/story' alerts for every chapter/story you read. So, if it's a 50 chapter story and you are generally a reader who likes to review as many chapters as you like, that's essentially fifty different times you have to go through the highly annoying process of deselecting all those alerts. Maybe with enough people writing in to the support email complaining, and stating how much these new 'features' which includes 'moderating anon reviews', are actually hurting the writers themselves FFnet will repeal these idiotic new features. I have some small hope despite the fact that ffnet is notorious for completely ignoring its user base complaints, because the new 'comment' email alerts feature lasted only one day, before readers and writers all over the 'net rose up and demanded that the stupid 'new comment alert' be switched back to 'new review alert'. And it was. So, hopefully again with enough of us voicing out and voicing our displeasure with this latest bad stunt ffnet has pulled, they'll repeal all the dumb crap they've done in the last few days. I've sent an email myself this morning, and plan to send one again later tonight or tomorrow if ffnet looks like they still need a bit more 'persuasion' to change their minds.

I don't see 'opt-out' at all there. Except when you say it's annoying to have to 'opt-out' of subscribing or favoriting a story on each chapter.

Angry no. Getting increasingly annoyed, yes. My biggest problem with you right now is that you seemed to sign up with H&E just to argue for people to be all honky dory with FFnet's changes. And what's really annoying is the fact that you can't seem to just let people like what they like, or not like what they like. You saw no one here before you started posting, telling anyone else that they shouldn't like FFnet's new changes. If you like the majority of the changes that's fine. In fact that's great, as that's how you feel about it all. Continuing to post these massive posts answering back to each and every little thing someone says, and continually questioning why people don't like certain changes is actually quite arrogant. Just leave it be. You aren't going to change people's minds if they don't like something, and no one here was trying to change anyone else's minds if they did. So, you can point out all day if you so choose why you like the changes, but really stop quoting everyone and trying to force the issue of why we should like them.

Well I'm not saying everyone should love the changes like I do. I'm just debating points and pointing out the benefits. Maybe you guys will be happier if you see the positive side of the changes instead of focusing on all the negative. And maybe you'll enjoy the site more(at least until you migrate like I see some of you are intending to do) as well.

I think you are angry. I mean your using exclamation marks, calling me arrogant, and such. If you have a problem with my points just debate ! I really like doing it and I'm not being rude here. I'm not calling anybody names or saying people are stupid for disagreeing with me. The only people I replied to is kirabook(who called my point ridiculous lol), tricksie, and whoever else responding to me. I left the rant up there alone and really none of this is really personal so...

Why are you so angry with me?

Am I gonna get banned for this?

Edited by BlackBee, 02 July 2012 - 06:21 PM.

[Sakura Blossoms]

This was my email to FFnet. No 'rallying the troops'. No remove all features. Just a simple plea to not force people to OPT-OUT of something they didn't need to be opt-ed into in the first place -

(Readers have threatened to stop reviewing our stories because it is INCREDIBLY *frustrating* to have to deselect these forced author/story alerts for *every* chapter they read. The open comments box was a great idea for encouraging reviews, but it is absolutely killed by this forced opt-in. PLEASE set the the default to no selected options. Every reader/writer should have the option to choose for themselves whether they want to be alerted for a story/author. Please. Readers have stated all over the internet like FB, Twitter, Forums, etc that they will stop reviewing stories because of issue. Reviewers are a writers bread and butter. Please don't aid in taking that away from us for something as easily fixed/resolved as no forced alert default setting.)

I'm not saying anything further. It's pointless saying anything else to you. Unlike you, I'm letting it be. You like what you like, I'll not like what I don't like about the changes, and move on with my life and not waste it dithering back and forth, over something that FFnet will not change in either case.

[BlackBee]

I'm not saying anything further. It's pointless saying anything else to you. Unlike you, I'm letting it be. You like what you like, I'll not like what I don't like about the changes, and move on with my life and not waste it dithering back and forth, over something that FFnet will not change in either case.

Okay...? But next time if you want to let something go please try not to subtly insult me/the person you want to stop debating with. It's kind of rude.

EDIT: Thought you were letting it go lol ;P.

But okay I couldn't see that before so I responded based off of the post you made here. Soooo you can't really get angry with me for that. But thanks for showing what you actually said.

Edited by BlackBee, 02 July 2012 - 07:02 PM.

[Madz]

Jumping very very late in the wagon!
Have signed the petition - hope something has come out of it! I am very much concerned because three of my big work is M rated with lemons, so they are at big risks.

The things that annoy me is that:
Firstly, the interpretation of the limits of the M rated can be VERY objective. I remember when I started it was some about the target age being at least 17 years old (have not checked the rules again lately), and honestly, I find it very amusing and naive to believe that at this age, 17 years old are not aware about about 'lemons' or not reading it avidly elsewhere. I partly understand the aim behind the purging actions, but it's a million times worse to just destroy such hard work overnight ... in the name of what? Sheltering 17 years old from reading lemons?? I really believe that those who so easily delete stories have never written anything themselves.

Secondly - about the anonymous reviews...I don't really mind. My anonymous reviews option was active anyway. But I understand that not all may like this new rule, as it takes away the writers right to chose.

Anyway, I must really save my works....

[tricksie]

Are you sure there's no governing body? One time I sent them an email and I got a personal reply so I'm pretty sure there are people behind the scenes there.

Is the bigger picture that they are upset because they feel screwed over because of the purge and are now attacking every new thing FF.net does because they feel the site is avoiding their questions and concerns over the whole thing?

If not then yeah I guess I am missing it. But I don't understand why attacking the good changes will change one bad decision. If you are unsatisfied with how they handled the purge, let them know you are unsatisfied with that. I don't really understand how the new changes are detreimental since you can still write and upload stories and read/respond to/write reviews like normal. The only thing you can't do anymore is block all anon reviews automatically. But you can still block them or remove them if needed.

But uh, I'll just leave the bigger picture alone and focus on defending the small stuff if that's okay. Because the reason I started posting in this thread is because Sakura Blossoms was talking about getting FF.net to remove all of the new changes.

About my ff.net account...I've actually been here before. I was BabyVee. I even started a thread for my stories. But I can't tell if no one looked at them or gave me help or maybe they did and I just can't recognize them under their FF.net usernames. So...I dunno I'll just save you and everyone else the trouble and say my username here is the same as it is there(BlackBee), but if no one was interested then they probably won't be interested now haha.

One email does not a governing body make. What I meant are mods or admins who are available for whole the community and accessible at a static helpdesk/faq area. FF.net has none of that.

I'll just repeat what I said earlier. The minor tweaks don't make much difference after the much larger issue of betraying their own policies.

Personally, I'm not going to waste my time emailing them about changes. They've had plenty of time to do right by their content creators (the users). If this is how they treat them now, in the face of greater public scrutiny due to fanfic going more mainstream, then it's high time for a new, more author- and reader-friendly site.

As far as your account here and there, I do remember you and your writing. It lends credibility to your argument if you're a writer and not just someone trolling, so I wanted to be sure you were actually an author before taking you seriously. But logging in as a new person on H&E, just for purposes of debate, certainly gets everyone's hackles up.

edit: *waves at madz!!!*

Edited by tricksie, 02 July 2012 - 06:52 PM.

[GoNeKr@zY]

@blackbee. Stop antagonizing the other members.
you like the changes. we get it. end of discussion.

[BlackBee]

Antagonizing how? I don't understand because I was trying to be as polite as possible and I was also correcting some of the wrong facts.

EDIT: Deleted because it I sounded like I was fishing for sympathy.

Edited by BlackBee, 02 July 2012 - 07:21 PM.

[Onionhead Attacks]

Antagonizing how? I don't understand because I was trying to be as polite as possible and I was also correcting some of the wrong facts.

Polite or not, the way way you went about responding to our comments gave off the impression that you were trying very hard to persuade us to like the changes when we don't in a debate styled response. IMO you could've just stated why you like the changes and end it there instead of arguing against everyone who stated (or in some cases complained) about why they didn't like the changes. There are some changes we liked and we stated them too, not just complaints! After all, it's not like we were trying to convince YOU to hate the changes ff.net has made. We merely stated why we didn't like it and the effects it has on our reading experience.

But okay I'll just stop posting. I see my user rating is one star so I guess I'm not wanted here anyway lol.

You're technically free to voice your opinions and continue to do so. It's just that you felt a bit forceful trying to persuade us to accept the changes of ff.net when some of their upgrades would've been better if they were made as options rather than default settings.

[BlackBee]

Polite or not, the way way you went about responding to our comments gave off the impression that you were trying very hard to persuade us to like the changes when we don't in a debate styled response. IMO you could've just stated why you like the changes and end it there instead of arguing against everyone who stated (or in some cases complained) about why they didn't like the changes. There are some changes we liked and we stated them too, not just complaints! After all, it's not like we were trying to convince YOU to hate the changes ff.net has made. We merely stated why we didn't like it and the effects it has on our reading experience.


You're technically free to voice your opinions and continue to do so. It's just that you felt a bit forceful trying to persuade us to accept the changes of ff.net when some of their upgrades would've been better if they were made as options rather than default settings.

Oh. Okay then. Like I said I love debating so sometimes I just naturally get into it. Thank you for explaining it to me!

Edited by BlackBee, 02 July 2012 - 07:38 PM.

[Nate River]

Jumping very very late in the wagon!
Have signed the petition - hope something has come out of it! I am very much concerned because three of my big work is M rated with lemons, so they are at big risks.

The things that annoy me is that:
Firstly, the interpretation of the limits of the M rated can be VERY objective. I remember when I started it was some about the target age being at least 17 years old (have not checked the rules again lately), and honestly, I find it very amusing and naive to believe that at this age, 17 years old are not aware about about 'lemons' or not reading it avidly elsewhere. I partly understand the aim behind the purging actions, but it's a million times worse to just destroy such hard work overnight ... in the name of what? Sheltering 17 years old from reading lemons?? I really believe that those who so easily delete stories have never written anything themselves.

It's likely tied to laws regarding adult entertainment. 18 is the age of majority and is most places (in the US anyway) and that includes the laws related to adult oriented business/porn. You cannot establish a porn site and say, come one, come all. You have to at least pretend to try to limit access to minors (not sure what the minimum is off hand). That's true for porno sites, us here at H&E, and ff.net.

I don't think it is in the interest of anything other than not wanting to get shutdown or worse.

[kirabook]

Okay then mad? Annoyed? Because that's how you are coming across.

Seriously, nothing at all unless my depression has begun to seep into my posts. *completely unrelated depression*

But if personal advice is needed then all that can be said is grow thicker skin or try reading the reviews from a different perspective.

One bad anon review. Is it helpful?
-No? Don't let it be published. Or if it is published because you couldn't get to it in time, delete it. Or ignore it.

Yes? Then you can still delete it but the best thing to do would be to publish it, listen to whatever helpful advice it gives, and respond to the concerns or whatever it raises in the A/N of the next chapter.

Several bad reviews. Are they helpful?
-No? Ask yourself if you have pissed anyone off lately.

As I said, "Grow thicker skin and deal with it" is not the appropriate way to ago about things. Deleting a bad review does nothing. People turned it on to avoid having to read/receiving them period. Really, some people just can't handle that. And what will they do if many anon's come and troll their story? They may just give up all together.

It would be nice for people to grow a pair and just handle it, but that's not realistic. It makes no sense to take away a permission from a user because someone behind the scenes feels it will help them.

Dammit I saw this reply coming. Okay then maybe it's just me who would find it hard.



Yeah but how can you guarentee everyone who reads your stories will subscribe to that? And what about people who fav you or your stuff instead of subscribing? What about people who keep an eye on your stuff but haven't faved/reviewed/subscribed yet? what about anon readers? If you want ALL of your readers to be aware of something going on with your story the best way to let them know I think, is to put it in one of the A/Ns of your story.

Or in case of a surprise setback, then let people know ahead of time to check your profile or your forum(s) for any kind of RL updates that would affect the progress of your stories(I have to start doing that actually...).

I think it's a good idea and all but I just don't see it as being that simple . I'm personally hoping for a feature attached to the profiles that allows you to let readers know the progress of your story(like a table of sorts that lists the story and next to it the progress of the next chapter or something. When you are writing the draft or when you are editing or when you are still planning, etc.). Because I use my profile right now and it just looks so cluttered lol. But despite that using my profile still works for me so I just told my readers in one of my A/Ns to check my profile for story updates.



I guess not.

If someone were to spend a few hours on this alone and not be lazy *coughcoughmyself*, then this could all be done fairly quickly(1 to 2 days, if that). FF.net hadn't had any major changes for years, so it's safe to say they've been sitting on their butts for a long time and only just recently tried to push out changes. They're rushing essentially, and stomping on people with new unwanted features. Not everything, but a majority of it.


As for the author blogs, again, they would only be similar to stories and whatnot. If you subscribe to an author, you would automatically receive this service. If you subscribe to a particular story, the author could have the option to have an author's blog specifically catered to people subscribed to a certain story, only people subscribed to Story B and the author would receive an inbox message.

"What if a user only has the story favorited?" Well, there would simply be another route to go about this. You can have Story Alerts, Favorites, and lastly, Author's Notes. The option would be completely independent from Story Alerts and favorites, but still automatic if you happen to be subscribed to the author or have them favorited.

I was correcting you . But why shouldn't there be a time limit? Just how long do you need to decide whether you want an anon review published or not? I think 36 hours is plenty of time to think 'hmm this review is kind of mean and it isn't helpful at all. I better not let it be published.' or 'this review is really nice and/or helpful! I should let it be published!'.

And let's say you are in a situation where you can't have internet for more than 36 hours. Then again, just go to 'reviews', click on 'remove review', and remove the offending review. Or ignore it.

Personally, I do not have time to go on FF everyday and check in on things, even if I receive a FF review alert, it might take me a day or two to read it. Not everyone can be on so often due to various circumstances, like not having a computer at home and only able to check up while at school or in a workplace. If they get a review over the weekend they're screwed.

If people get super dramatized by others leaving bad reviews now *as in, other reviewers getting pissed and whatnot when they see others leaving a bad review or trolls*, it can only get worse from here.

I get that warnings are needed(and I really do think they should be), but again if you break the rules they are not obligated to be nice to you. You are using their services for free after all. The best I can hope for to combat that is a place dedicated to disputing reports on your story and a much more detailed explanation of the rating system/guidelines(since that is the most unfair way to be reported. So many things can fall under an 'M' rating and as stated, a lot of the works fanfiction is based on could be considered N-17 anyway).

I'm sorry but assuming that something is safe on the internet is dumb. Would you trust this site with important school work or career work? Not to mention it doesn't even hang onto all of your stuff since Doc manager only allows you to upload a certain amount of things for a certain amount of time. One of the first rules of computers is to ALWAYS have a back up for the things you care about.

So I'm sorry but that kind of responsibility falls on the writers, not FF.net.

Alerting a customer/user that you're about to delete your story from their site is not being "nice". That's like saying sending an eviction notice to someone is just a nice little gesture telling someone you're kicking them out of their home.

It's not a "nice" thing to do, it's an alert. A warning, a "fix it up or else" or even a "there's nothing you can do, we're going to delete this story in X amount of time".

Any professional establishment would understand that they HAVE TO, I mean HAVE TO alert their users of such things!
What they did with that purge is the equivalent of what some admin might do on a fanclub forum. Delete all the posts that oppose them and ignore any user anger. Completely unprofessional. Or a bank withdrawing all your money without sending you a notice.

Writers should not be concerned about whether their stories will disappear save under the circumstance the entire website goes down and is to never return. They should not be scared that their story will be deleted without warning or without knowing a real reason why. They shouldn't be wondering if their story is on the line or not and if it'll be deleted because it has a curseword in the title.

What kind of website and community is it to be in constant worry your story will disappear based on the whim of people that won't talk to the community as a whole other than vague "News" updates on the front page?

Edited by kirabook, 02 July 2012 - 09:50 PM.

[Nate River]

Alerting a customer/user that you're about to delete your story from their site is not being "nice". That's like saying sending an eviction notice to someone is just a nice little gesture telling someone you're kicking them out of their home.

It's not a "nice" thing to do, it's an alert. A warning, a "fix it up or else" or even a "there's nothing you can do, we're going to delete this story in X amount of time".

Any professional establishment would understand that they HAVE TO, I mean HAVE TO alert their users of such things!
What they did with that purge is the equivalent of what some admin might do on a fanclub forum. Delete all the posts that oppose them and ignore any user anger. Completely unprofessional. Or a bank withdrawing all your money without sending you a notice.

Except that I wouldn't consider ff.net a professional establishment and I don't get the feeling they are trying to be one. Stories aren't getting purged because authors are critical of management. If stories are being deleted in retaliation for the purge nobody has said so or offered proof of it.

And the consequences of getting kicked out or a bank withdrawing your money are much more severe. If I'm evicted without notice I have no where to live and I'm suddenly not allowed to enter the property where all my stuff likely is. If a bank simply withdraws money out of my checking account that's theft.

A deleted fic does not result in you suddenly being homeless without knowing why or a bank suddenly taking money from you need to buy food or pay the rent. I don't care how many hours are poured into it, it's not the same.

That said, I think trixsie's reason is the best argument for why notice should be given. When you post there you are taking something you spent a lot of time and work one (well some people, there is a lot crap that couldn't have taken more than five minutes to write) and when you post it you want to have some certainty what the rules of the game are so that they don't render all that work worthless. If you can't trust that the rules will be consistently and fairly enforced how can you depend on the site not to make all that work a waste of time? Would you risk putting up your work on a site who you couldn't trust?

The other reason I think notice is important is because certain rules, particularly the violence one, don't lend themselves to bright line interpretations. As to sex, lemons are easy, but what about a step below that? Will that survive an M rating? If so, how far below do you have to be? What if wrote a lime with some violence that got purged? Was it the lime? Was it the violence? Both? Purges without notice or explanation deprive the user of knowing where those lines are. You'll never get a perfect line with absolute certainty, but at least you can have an idea where it is. ff.net will never be able to say this act in this act out for violence because the list would be endless, but if you at least provided notice and explanation you could see what they are calling in and out and adjust accordingly.

I still think they ff.net was given a "oh crap" moment and once that happened they no longer cared what users thought because their other concerns were on other matters. As I said before, when faced with a choice between the negative publicity and possible liability for allowing minors unobstructed access to literary porn and pissing off my users, I'm pissing of my users. It's not a hard choice.

Of course, the counter is (1) they never should have let it get that far (i.e. should have had better enforcement practices to prevent the "oh crap" moment) and (2) it's not excuse for the behavior desaix describes. While mass purges don't happen all the time, the deletion method used in it is not supposed to be the norm (deleting based solely on report and without explanation), but that's their reputation is that method is standard operating procedure.

I still wonder if the site is too big for it's own britches so to speak. That there is not enough people with enough time to what really needs to be done. The thought of moderating there....noooo way. Sounds like a nightmare. I couldn't take reading a bunch of poorly written stories or well written stories where I had no interest in the subject matter. A 100,000+ NaruSasu? Due diligence says I should at least glance at it those on occasion to make sure it complies with the ratings. But the reader in me says, "Do I really want to read a lengthy Naruto yaoi fic? No, I don't."

[Codus N]

But the reader in me says, "Do I really want to read a lengthy Naruto yaoi fic? No, I don't."

Best quote of this thread. I'm keeling over. Seriously.

[Gravenimage]

Best quote of this thread. I'm keeling over. Seriously.

That makes two of us lol.