182 replies to this topic

[KeikoxYusuke]

Thanks guys, I appreciate it. I'm glad to see most people here understand what I'm saying. I'm not saying Sakura does not deserve respect, I'm not saying I hate her or that I don't think she deserves Naruto. All I'm saying is that the way most people try to defend her doesn't hold water. There are better ways to look at it, ways with more substance. And I would rather Sakura be respected for the fact that she grew and redeemed herself rather than being excused because she's a Tsundere. Who cares if she's a Tsundere? It's secondary to how it affects the story and the people around her, and it takes a distant back seat to her development.

I mean, really, which would you rather hear? "It's ok for me to hit you and yell at you, Naruto. After all, I'm a Tsundere. I'm supposed to." or "Naruto, I'm sorry that I treated you the way I used to. I treated you like a nuisance, but you always cared for me and loved me. I know you'll never let anyone hurt me, and so I will never hurt you. I love you, too." What matters more: the reasoning behind the writing process that fit her with her archetype, or the resulting substance and development of the story?

I am a writer, people. And I am here to tell you that you need to stop hiding behind this Tsundere argument. It's a poor argument. It doesn't matter what she is. It matters what she becomes and why, and what it means to the story and her love for Naruto.



You really have no idea what a typical fangirl you're being, do you? You're not reading anything I'm saying. I like Sakura. I think she's right for Naruto. I want them to be together, and I think they will be happy. I'm not bashing her. All I'm doing is pointing out that she did have faults, and she overcame them. I'm saying that standing behind this Tsundere argument gets her fans nowhere, because the ones against the pairing are not buying it. Nor should they. You're not a fan if you defend her every little action, because you're not allowing for the fact that she is human. She mistreated Naruto, and she's aware of it. And she's sorry for it. And she's coming to love him. Why do you not argue it from that standpoint instead of using the term Tsundere like it's an all forgiving shield?

You're attacking me because you think I'm attacking Sakura because she's like a girl who hurt me. And you're wrong. I'm saying I understand how they feel, because I've been in Naruto's shoes in that regard, and I know how it feels. I'm saying that this is a fault she had, came to realize, overcame, and redeemed herself. I like Sakura precisely BECAUSE she feels remorse for hurting him, and because she came around and started to love him. I would love to have a Sakura in my life, and I hope that I do one day.

Before you start putting your fists up to defend her, realize that I am not attacking her. I am recognizing her as a human who makes mistakes, and a noble girl who overcomes them.

awww I know you dislike Tsundere girls, but I just LOVE the way you came to like Sakura!

[Dragunov]

The matter is: does he mind being hit? I doubt it. It seems to me that he looks forward to it. Given the fact that he could easily dodge her, he decides no to.

[Jenskott]

I do not want getting dragged in this debate, but I think I need to telling one thing.

I am a writer, people. And I am here to tell you that you need to stop hiding behind this Tsundere argument. It's a poor argument. It doesn't matter what she is. It matters what she becomes and why, and what it means to the story and her love for Naruto.

It is not Tsundere is a poor argument people hids behind but it does not hold water. It is -and forgive me for being bluntly honest- that you do not know what a Tsundere is.

Tsundere is not a girl who hits a boy or ignores the nice boy as she pins for the bad boy and the audience is supposed to think it is fine. A tsundere is a character -it is not necessarily female; actually, there are a lot of Tsundere male characters, like Tetsuya Tsurugi- whose mood switches between nice or harsh depending on the situation. That is it. Hitting -or being a girl or woman- has nothing to do with being a Tsundere.

And I can tell you not only such people exists in real life but also they are not unpleasant at all. My oldest friend is dating a girl who he blatantly states she is a Tsundere. He also tells me she is one of the best persons he has ever met, and their relationship is the most stable and most long-lasting than he has got.

And honestly... everybody suffer of mood changes at any point. It is only natural.

We are not supposed to consider Sakura hitting Naruto is fine because she is a Tsundere. We are meant to regard it like comic relief and not take it seriously. I suppose you have watched Tom & Jerry, Looney Toons or other cartoons use violence like comedy. Did you take it seriously? How many times Homer Simpson has throttled Bart? OF COURSE it is terrible when a father abuses his child, but... Are we supposed to take it like a real world issue and think Homer is an horrible father that must be separated from his children right away? Or are we mean to understand it is comedy and laugh about it? And when Ichigo from Bleach hits his father? Someone thought he was a bad son or they understood it was comedic?

When I read or watch City Hunter, Kaori slams Ryo with one-hundred-tons mallets. Ryo is perfectly fine and healthy in the next panel. No broken bones, no bruised organs, no bumps. How can nobody take that seriously? Specially considering Ryo is capable to dodge BULLETS, and he tells for some reason he is unable dodge Kaori's attacks and it feels like if his body does NOT want to dodge them?

The answer is simple. It must NOT be taken seriously. We are not supposed to.

When violence must be taken seriously in one story, then? The answer is likewise simple. You have to look to the context and the mood of the setting. When Sasuke nearly killed Naruto, Naruto spent several days in the hospital. It was not forgotten in the next panel. It was not treated like if it was nothing.

Have you watched Ranma 1/2? Several times Akane slams Ranma in orbit. Still Ranma never gets harmed and never seems minding. However, in one story she slapped him (it was understandable in the context. He was picking one fight with someone he did not knew was sick. She was trying to stop him, and that was the only way she could think of). Ranma got a shocked -and then sad- face and left quielty, and Akane felt awfully guilty about it. It was not played out for laughs in that situation, and reactions of the characters showed that clearly.

Please, forgive me for being frank, but... you are mixing your real life experiences with the happenings of a fictional story, and using the former for judging the later. And that is never good. Sakura is not the girl hurt you (and that girl was not a Tsundere, either). Naruto is not you. And both situations are completely different. I do not intend to remind you of old pains, but that is the truth.

And to be honest, when I read Naruto for first time, Sakura never came across me like unlikeable or detestable. She was a tad bratty and annoying at the beginning, but: everybody -including Naruto, Sasuke and their classmates- were; and she was twelve. Of course she could act inmature. I was shocked when I found out about what some people thought about her. Her early childish behaviour was completely overblown to ridiculous levels. And her comedic actions were regarded like if it was a serious matter.

And not, I am not accusing you of not reading the manga or hating Sakura. I am stating how it felt to me when I met people did not like Sakura and even detested her deeply (again, I am not telling you did it).

And I am not a Sakura fanboy can not stand when she is criticized, either. But I think often she is criticized unfairly. And if I think that, then I say it. I do not like Sasuke AT ALL, but when I see someone is exaggerating his flaws -or making them up- I think that criticism is overblown and unfair.

And maybe you think I am hypocrite, advicing you not mixing your personal life with the manga storyline right after talking about my friend. However that is not what was doing at all. Someone stated if Tsundere existed in real life, they would be very unpleasant people, and I was using an example to point out that is not necessarily true. However, it has nothing with my opinion about Sakura or other Tsundere characters, so I am not getting both situations mixed.

That is all. I do not expect convince someone or change any minds, and I do not wish getting dragged into a discussion, so that is my last word in this topic.

The matter is: does he mind being hit? I doubt it. It seems to me that he looks forward to it. Given the fact that he could easily dodge her, he decides no to.

He has never expressed he minds it, whereas he has very clearly and repeatedly stated he hated being ignored like if he did not exist, so... No, he does not mind.

[redragon88]

And I can tell you not only such people exists in real life but also they are not unpleasant at all. My oldest friend is dating a girl who he blatantly states she is a Tsundere. He also tells me she is one of the best persons he has ever met, and their relationship is the most stable and most long-lasting than he has got.

And honestly... everybody suffer of mood changes at any point. It is only natural.

When you put it that way it seems everybody becomes a Tsundere once in a while.

I get that people change moods in real life now and then, but that just how people are. Our emotions and circumstances are way to complex to be categorized as just a Tsundere, I believe people can be more than just that. That's why I say that Tsunderes only work in fiction since it's a controlled environment.

[Konoha'sCrimsonFox]

In other words, most of the time he loves to get beat, which was proven in the begging of part 2 when he saw Sakura punched the earth with a chakra enhancement punch, and he decided not to act stupid around her anymore.

[PachucoDesigns]

You know, this is a response I truly get tired of. Whenever Sakura is criticized in any way, many of her fans are willing to hold up the Tsundere argument. And when someone says that they do not like the Tsundere archetype, that person gets accused of not knowing what a Tsundere is. I know exactly what a Tsundere is. But to satisfy and address this accusation once and for all, let's break it down, shall we?

Tsundere:

"a Japanese character development process that describes a person who is initially cold and even hostile towards another person before gradually showing their warm side over time."

"The Japanese term tsundere refers to a character who "runs hot and cold", alternating between two distinct moods: tsuntsun (aloof or irritable) and deredere (lovestruck)."

"a word to describe the nature of female anime or game characters. Tsundere is a word combining two words, "Tsun Tsun" and "Dere Dere". Both terms describe attitudes of a person. "Tsun Tsun" is used for cold/blunt/curt attitude, while "Dere Dere" is used when a person becomes spoony in front of his/her lover."

Now, cross referencing these definitions, the important characteristic to note is the shifting personality or unstable demeanor, swaying from hot-tempered and hostile or irritable (TsunTsun) to love-struck, caring, or otherwise affectionate in some fashion (DereDere).

Given that this is often in relation to the hero of the story, her dismissive, angry, irritable disposition toward Naruto (including the "comical" violence) is eventually counterbalanced by her growing affection for him down the line.

I am fully aware of what a Tsundere is, among all of the other archetypes and their examples. Though it is only a small factor of her Tsundere nature, her hitting him is included. I accept that and I do not take issue with it. Here are my concerns:

1) Her violence toward him is often dismissed as comical, not to be taken seriously. But that's exactly the problem. Why is it funny? Why should I laugh? Why is this behavior acceptable? I don't care that it's because it fits in with the Tsundere archetype if used properly. Why is this behavior acceptable at all, from anyone, regardless of their archetype?

2) You're basically telling fans who dislike her early actions to accept them, or even like them, because she is a Tsundere. So what? Why does this justify anything? Characters are created on these archetypes precisely because they are meant to evoke an emotional response of some kind from the audience. But as soon as someone does not like the character type, they're told not to be upset because this is what she is supposed to do based on her definition.

This is absurd. If you're arguing why she should be liked from a character standpoint, then you should do so from the context and content of her character instead of the mechanical processes used to create her.

By that logic, no one should be upset by Sasuke abandoning the Leaf and stomping on Sakura's heart, because his roles trade off between Antihero/Villain.

No one should be upset with Orochimaru killing the Third or causing so much emotional strain between our main characters, because he is a Villan and a Threshold Guardian.

No one should be upset by Kabuto's constant betrayals and back stabbing behavior, because he is a Shapeshifter.

You wouldn't accept this for any of the other characters, would you? And it's because you're judging their behaviors based on their content of character and the context of their actions. You're not reasoning it based on what Kishimoto intended their role to be, because you understand that it's a matter of why, not what.

I know what Sakura is. I know how she is a Tsundere, and I know why. But I repeat, who cares? Why does it matter? What she does and why she does it based on the specifics of her character and the context is more important than the wireframe definition of her character type. It does not excuse or justify anything.

"Don't get upset. I was supposed to stuff this little nerd into his locker. I am a no-neck jock/high school bully. I'm supposed to do that." Would you accept this? Then why would you accept it in Sakura's case?

If you're going to defend her actions, then do so based on who she was and how she grew to because who she is. Do so based on the plot points of the story, justification and redemption, not on the skeletal guidelines of her character.

The answer is simple. It must NOT be taken seriously. We are not supposed to.

When violence must be taken seriously in one story, then? The answer is likewise simple. You have to look to the context and the mood of the setting. When Sasuke nearly killed Naruto, Naruto spent several days in the hospital. It was not forgotten in the next panel. It was not treated like if it was nothing.

Please, forgive me for being frank, but... you are mixing your real life experiences with the happenings of a fictional story, and using the former for judging the later. And that is never good.

He has never expressed he minds it, whereas he has very clearly and repeatedly stated he hated being ignored like if he did not exist, so... No, he does not mind.

I don't understand how you don't see why I take issue with this. Why is the violence supposed to be funny? Why does the context make it funny? Would you find it funny if it was a girl getting punched, even if it was the same context? Of course Naruto doesn't mind. He doesn't exist. Kishimoto doesn't mind him being hurt for the sake of humor.

The context is comical, not serious, so I'm sure this man getting hit by the car doesn't mind, either:

Hilarious, right?

I'm sure this guy has no problem at all getting ruthlessly assaulted for no reason at all. I mean, it's comedy. It's all in good fun, right?:

Ha ha ha! That'll teach him to...uh...not ask for directions?

Why is this funny? Can you please tell me? Because I don't see a reason. And I don't see a reason to call Sakura's violence against Naruto funny, either. "He got punched in the face. Ha ha ha. He tried to hug her. He deserved it. She's a Tsundere after all."

I know what a Tsundere is. I know it quite well. I just don't like it. I know violence doesn't have to be part of the definition, but it's often associated, and I especially don't like that fact.

Edited by PachucoDesigns, 25 March 2012 - 08:49 PM.

[Soul]

One word: Opinions.

Everyone has thier own point of view, It's different then other, But sometimes it's alike. If you find a tsundere funny or not funny, No one will change your mind. If someone takes it seriously or don't like it, Again no one will change your mind. It's all about points of view and opinions.

[Madz]

^^
Pachuco....We really seem to be skirting around the points here.
I'm sorry, but from my point of view, I feel you take this "punching' thing too much literally, and if you are already comparing actual bullying to it, if you are calling it "violence", then you are completely besides the point. And honestly, it will be useless to argue the pojnt endlessly.
I would say we better agree to disagree here.

I really believe you are unused to Japanese manga (City hunter- Kaori's actions to Kyo? Karin punching her dad in Bleach?)

And how do you take the pink/mauve/blue hair of Japanese mangas?

[PachucoDesigns]

^^
Pachuco....We really seem to be skirting around the points here.
I'm sorry, but from my point of view, I feel you take this "punching' thing too much literally, and if you are already comparing actual bullying to it, if you are calling it "violence", then you are completely besides the point. And honestly, it will be useless to argue the pojnt endlessly.
I would say we better agree to disagree here.

I really believe you are unused to Japanese manga (City hunter- Kaori's actions to Kyo? Karin punching her dad in Bleach?)

And how do you take the pink/mauve/blue hair of Japanese mangas?

I've been a manga fan for years. How often do you see naturally occurring blue/pink hair in reality? But then again, how often do you see violence against men in reality? How many times do you hear jokes about it in reality? I don't suppose you recall the Lorena Bobbitt incident, and all of the jokes that followed? When was the last time you saw a man being beaten by his wife taken seriously by society, let alone awareness messages spread about it?

We're not skirting around the points at all. People say how she treated him was justified because she is a Tsundere. I don't care if she's a Tsundere, it doesn't excuse her actions back then, because I wouldn't justify Orochimaru's murder of the 3d based on the fact that he's a villain. She isn't harsh to him because she is a Tsundere. She is a Tsundere because she is harsh to him. Something isn't given its definition before it is observed.

People say that I shouldn't take the hitting seriously, because it's just for comedy. I don't see how it's funny. And I don't see why anyone should find it funny.

awww I know you dislike Tsundere girls, but I just LOVE the way you came to like Sakura!

Well, you were the one who made me change my mind, ladybug. xD lol

Edited by PachucoDesigns, 25 March 2012 - 09:38 PM.

[ciardha]

I do not want getting dragged in this debate, but I think I need to telling one thing.



It is not Tsundere is a poor argument people hids behind but it does not hold water. It is -and forgive me for being bluntly honest- that you do not know what a Tsundere is.

Tsundere is not a girl who hits a boy or ignores the nice boy as she pins for the bad boy and the audience is supposed to think it is fine. A tsundere is a character -it is not necessarily female; actually, there are a lot of Tsundere male characters, like Tetsuya Tsurugi- whose mood switches between nice or harsh depending on the situation. That is it. Hitting -or being a girl or woman- has nothing to do with being a Tsundere.

And I can tell you not only such people exists in real life but also they are not unpleasant at all. My oldest friend is dating a girl who he blatantly states she is a Tsundere. He also tells me she is one of the best persons he has ever met, and their relationship is the most stable and most long-lasting than he has got.

And honestly... everybody suffer of mood changes at any point. It is only natural.

We are not supposed to consider Sakura hitting Naruto is fine because she is a Tsundere. We are meant to regard it like comic relief and not take it seriously. I suppose you have watched Tom & Jerry, Looney Toons or other cartoons use violence like comedy. Did you take it seriously? How many times Homer Simpson has throttled Bart? OF COURSE it is terrible when a father abuses his child, but... Are we supposed to take it like a real world issue and think Homer is an horrible father that must be separated from his children right away? Or are we mean to understand it is comedy and laugh about it? And when Ichigo from Bleach hits his father? Someone thought he was a bad son or they understood it was comedic?

When I read or watch City Hunter, Kaori slams Ryo with one-hundred-tons mallets. Ryo is perfectly fine and healthy in the next panel. No broken bones, no bruised organs, no bumps. How can nobody take that seriously? Specially considering Ryo is capable to dodge BULLETS, and he tells for some reason he is unable dodge Kaori's attacks and it feels like if his body does NOT want to dodge them?

The answer is simple. It must NOT be taken seriously. We are not supposed to.

When violence must be taken seriously in one story, then? The answer is likewise simple. You have to look to the context and the mood of the setting. When Sasuke nearly killed Naruto, Naruto spent several days in the hospital. It was not forgotten in the next panel. It was not treated like if it was nothing.

Have you watched Ranma 1/2? Several times Akane slams Ranma in orbit. Still Ranma never gets harmed and never seems minding. However, in one story she slapped him (it was understandable in the context. He was picking one fight with someone he did not knew was sick. She was trying to stop him, and that was the only way she could think of). Ranma got a shocked -and then sad- face and left quielty, and Akane felt awfully guilty about it. It was not played out for laughs in that situation, and reactions of the characters showed that clearly.

Please, forgive me for being frank, but... you are mixing your real life experiences with the happenings of a fictional story, and using the former for judging the later. And that is never good. Sakura is not the girl hurt you (and that girl was not a Tsundere, either). Naruto is not you. And both situations are completely different. I do not intend to remind you of old pains, but that is the truth.

And to be honest, when I read Naruto for first time, Sakura never came across me like unlikeable or detestable. She was a tad bratty and annoying at the beginning, but: everybody -including Naruto, Sasuke and their classmates- were; and she was twelve. Of course she could act inmature. I was shocked when I found out about what some people thought about her. Her early childish behaviour was completely overblown to ridiculous levels. And her comedic actions were regarded like if it was a serious matter.

And not, I am not accusing you of not reading the manga or hating Sakura. I am stating how it felt to me when I met people did not like Sakura and even detested her deeply (again, I am not telling you did it).

And I am not a Sakura fanboy can not stand when she is criticized, either. But I think often she is criticized unfairly. And if I think that, then I say it. I do not like Sasuke AT ALL, but when I see someone is exaggerating his flaws -or making them up- I think that criticism is overblown and unfair.

And maybe you think I am hypocrite, advicing you not mixing your personal life with the manga storyline right after talking about my friend. However that is not what was doing at all. Someone stated if Tsundere existed in real life, they would be very unpleasant people, and I was using an example to point out that is not necessarily true. However, it has nothing with my opinion about Sakura or other Tsundere characters, so I am not getting both situations mixed.

That is all. I do not expect convince someone or change any minds, and I do not wish getting dragged into a discussion, so that is my last word in this topic.



He has never expressed he minds it, whereas he has very clearly and repeatedly stated he hated being ignored like if he did not exist, so... No, he does not mind.

In fact, as we see in the latest chapter special illustration- he not so secretly enjoys pranking her hot temper to come out. He loves her passionate nature in all it's manifestations. That was also part of why Jiraiya would deliberately stir Tsunade's temper up- the smirk on his face shows it. Minato loved Kushina- the "bloody red habanero"- even with them, there's a hint of his provoking her tsundere temper with arguments- just so he could concede every time. Passion in one area is meant to suggest to the readers passion in others.... Notice how Kshimoto also plays it out with Omoi and Karui and she reacts exactly in tsundere pattern. It's not shown but alluded to by Shikaku about Yoshino when he talks to Shikamaru about how great relationships with strong- meaning tsundere, women are and how men should seek them out.

That was Kishmoto talking to his readers through a character... to make the point even clearer, we see this same message said multiple times in the manga.) Misreading Sakura in such a grossly negative way is the exact opposite of what Kishimoto wants you to do. He spells it out so many times, yet some readers are bound and determined to do what sure does come across as a deliberate misreading of the manga, no matter what the writer outright says in the manga and in interviews. This is mostly in the west. And even the minority of Japanese readers who don't care for Sakura's character know inside and out tsundere temper=a comic way of showing the girl is strong willed, no one's doormat. It's not in the least a reflection of anything negative about the character. It's been a dominant type for the romantic interest main female character type in manga and anime since the 80's- the era of City Hunter, and Ranma 1/2 (amongst numerous others with a main tsundere girl as the true romantic interest of the main male character.)

Thanks Jenskott for expounding on the points I made, I don't know if it will do any good with someone that determined to conflate the girl who rejected him with Sakura (and who was absolutely nothing like Sakura as you and I both said), but other people in the thread that may still just be a bit confused about the tsundere concept should get a nice clear picture from your great post. For you and I, who saw all those great anime in the 80's when the tsundere type was first being fully fleshed out, and have numerous years of anime watching and manga reading behind us (now 41 years of anime watching and just about exactly 30 years of manga reading for me- this fall it will be exactly 30 years since I read my first translated manga, and in February I marked 41 years as a fan of anime. I was almost 4 1/2 when I first saw "Speed Racer".) it's basically inexplicable that anyone would so misread what the tsundere character type is.

Then again, I knew exactly what was going the first chapter I read of Ranma 1/2, the first episode I watched of City Hunter when I was in my 20's and coming from a strongly feminist background, with a mother who was also a feminist. Mom also knew what was going on and was amused by the romances in the anime my sister and I watched in the 80's-2005 (she passed away in 2005 of a blood clot to her heart) She often sat in on my sister's and my "anime nights"- not a fan like my sister and I, but just casually for some good entertainment. She liked that we were into shows where the female characters were strong, rather than the American sitcoms and soap operas. [which just aggravate me more and more as the years go by for the outright sexist way female characters are depicted- I find them completely unwatchable] I find most anime far less sexist, even with the fanservice in most shonen manga- although I have my limits on that too, Kishimoto comes nowhere near that line and even tends to fanservice male characters maybe slightly more than female characters, while Oda and Mashima cross that line with female characters, and Kubo does at times. Mashima didn't start off Fairy Tale that way, but it got so excessive that I stopped reading and watching it- like I said, I do have my limits... My paternal uncle and his wife (he was then 63, she was then 70), neither who have watched any anime both immediately got what was going on when I showed them episodes 1-2 of Shippuden in 2008. They laughed and laughed at Sakura's tsundere temper at Naruto's going to show his new "more perverted jutsu" and immediately got Sakura was in love with Naruto. So I have to wonder at the current teens and twenty-somethings in the west that don't get what is going on, and refuse to get what is going on even when it is repeatedly explained to them. If they don't get it after a few attempts I ignore them from then on. I'm seriously thinking about cutting that down to one chance if the person is clearly doing it on purpose not just cultural ignorance. (like the 10th Dr. Who- "no second chances"

[PachucoDesigns]

ciardha, you are dead set on not reading anything I write. You have it set in your mind that I am equating her to some specific girl who hurt me, and you're wrong. You think I'm culturally ignorant, and I'm not. You think I don't know what a Tsundere is, and I do. You think I hate Sakura, and I don't. You're being unreasonable.

If you were really a fan of Sakura, then your points of debate wouldn't be so copy and paste.

[redragon88]

ciardha, you are dead set on not reading anything I write. You have it set in your mind that I am equating her to some specific girl who hurt me, and you're wrong. You think I'm culturally ignorant, and I'm not. You think I don't know what a Tsundere is, and I do. You think I hate Sakura, and I don't. You're being unreasonable.

If you were really a fan of Sakura, then your points of debate wouldn't be so copy and paste.

Look violence in any shape or form is not alright. We find it funny in fictional stories because they are not real. When people are killed in works of fiction sometimes is portrayed as cool and awesome, right? But if it happened in real life it would be a terrible thing, don't you think?

The same concept applies when a girl gets violent with a guy and generally he's fine by the next minute so there isn't even time to give it much thought. This work because the situation is not real, no one in real life is affected, that's why no one sees it as such a big deal.

If a girl goes to hit you in real life then she's just plain rude, mean, and not worth your time. If a girl gives you grieve then ignore her, don't let her be in your life, not even for a second. Something done in a work of fiction does not justify it in real life.

Edited by redragon88, 25 March 2012 - 11:15 PM.

[Gravenimage]

Look violence in any shape or form is not alright. We find it funny in fictional stories because they are not real. When people are killed in works of fiction sometimes is portrayed as cool and awesome, right? But if it happened in real life it would be a terrible thing, don't you think?

The same concept applies when a girl gets violent with a guy and generally he's fine by the next minute so there isn't even time to give it much thought. This work because the situation is not real, no one in real life is affected, that's why no one sees it as such a big deal.

If a girl goes to hit you in real life then she's just plain rude, mean, and not worth your time. If a girl gives you grieve then ignore her, don't let her be in your life, not even for a second. Something done in a work of fiction does not justify it in real life.

Thank you for saying this I didn't know how to respond to him. Besides another reason we find funny in violence of a tsundere towards the protagonist in a manga is their facial expressions looking all wacky and goofy. I find his opinion biased because if he's bothered by violence of a girl hitting a boy in manga then the same context can be say in western cartoons like "Family Guy" for example how many times has Louis hit Peter? In this episode I don't remember Peter starts tickling her and she warns him to stop but he kept on tickling her and she ended up hitting him with a frying pan (it must hurt a lot if your girlfriend hits her boyfriend with one). Peter broke his nose with blood all over it that's not nice either but guess what it's funny because it's a cartoon and everyone in this forum knows the concept of fiction and reality. I get your point it's not nice but in fiction like manga, cartoons, movies, t.v series considering the situation it can be awesome, tragic, or just comical.

[shadow_Uzumaki]

Well, they're still teenagers. You know how we were at that age? Our emotions were all over the place. Heck, I barely got out of that age and I still feel wacky about girls.

Edited by shadow_Uzumaki, 26 March 2012 - 12:51 AM.

[merryGOflava]

soo.......agree to disagree?????

sakura is a tsundere and will always be a tsundere.

love it or not? its up to you.

but thats just part of her character.

[catsi563]

My only additon to the argument

slap·stick (slpstk)
n.
1. A boisterous form of comedy marked by chases, collisions, and crude practical jokes.
2. A paddle designed to produce a loud whacking sound, formerly used by performers in farces.
1. (Performing Arts / Theatre)
a. comedy characterized by horseplay and physical action
b. (as modifier) slapstick humour
2. (Performing Arts / Theatre) a flexible pair of paddles bound together at one end, formerly used in pantomime to strike a blow to a person with a loud clapping sound but without injury


Adj. 1. slapstick - characterized by horseplay and physical action; "slapstick style of humor"
humorous, humourous - full of or characterized by humor; "humorous stories"; "humorous cartoons"; "in a humorous vein

for futher education see These guys

[Anguyen92]

Well, they're still teenagers. You know how we were at that age? Our emotions were all over the place. Heck, I barely got out of that age and I still feel wacky about girls.

I hated my life as a teen. I made so many regrettable mistakes, in that time period, that either I wanted to punch my 14 year old self or beat him badly in heads-up poker. So if that would were to happen to an average Joe like me, then the aftermath of a person's actions from either Naruto or Sakura is multiplied by a certain amount.

Edited by Anguyen92, 26 March 2012 - 01:53 AM.

[tricksie]

The tsundere thing is just a gimmick. I can understand why some people can find it offensive or off-putting. But it's just a gimmick for the character's creation. Like Naruto being the prankster or Sasuke being the emo. Hinata as super shy or Ino as super flirty. (If Sakura were being written in a western creation, I don't think we'd necessarily assign these character classifications. I can't think of western terms that carry the same meaning.) But ultimately, the tsundere thing is a formulaic gimmick to let readers easily wrap their heads around her personality, what she's going to do and why.

Comedic, feisty, slapstick or any other term is just a description of the gimmick. At the heart of it, tsundere is a well-trod formula. It works, quickly and easily, so that's why it's used over and over again, especially in manga where the character delivery has to be swift.

Edited by tricksie, 26 March 2012 - 01:55 AM.

[PachucoDesigns]

Nevermind. Agree to disagree, I suppose.

Bottom line, I do not like the Tsundere archetype, nor do I accept it as a defense fow why she treated Naruto the way she did. However, I do like who she has become, I do think she has grown in a very noble way, and I do want to see her with Naruto in the end.

Edited by PachucoDesigns, 26 March 2012 - 02:23 AM.

[merryGOflava]

Nevermind. Agree to disagree, I suppose.

Bottom line, I do not like the Tsundere archetype, nor do I accept it as a defense fow why she treated Naruto the way she did. However, I do like who she has become, I do think she has grown in a very noble way, and I do want to see her with Naruto in the end.

actually ....when sakura was little...i think she was more of a brat than a tsundere.

she wanted what she wanted and didnt like naruto getting in her way. though her and naruto became good friends even in part 1.

they just had too much in common, and even though sakura didnt want to admit it, she acted more like naruto than she wanted to.

later in part 2, i think she became more of a tsundere. she put naruto in his place while still caring for him. (so maybe you do like tsunderes since part 2 sakura acts like one more)

i liked when she was both bratty and a tsundere XD shes so refreshing X3