216 replies to this topic

[CloudMountainJuror]

Exactly. Therefore, this thread didn't even need to exist.

Whether that's true or not, it does exist, and I don't see what good closing it would do really. I'm one of the people that finds closing every single thread that has been resolved excessive. So, whether this thread requires existence or not, here it is.

[PachucoDesigns]

Because in case you haven't noticed, there is a lot that Kishimoto DOESN'T say. There is a lot in literatue, in life, in anything that can be interpreted every which way, but we need something to fall back on that isn't mass wild guessing. What else would we use outside of the manga or any other Naruto canon? Fanfiction? Fans get together and speculate things, and they argue in favour of for or against whatever the topic is. Go on other sites and I'm sure you'll find people who favour Hinata and have their opinions on it. I find it funny how you argue so much about her place, but when you see that Neji is on top it's all "of course!" and you accept that most of us have figured Neji is somewhere on the top. Where do you get your ideas that he's the most balanced character? It's the same way we came to our conclusion that Sakura is also a stronger character than the others. There would be no discussion about anything if we didn't have these grey areas. Derock pulled up the database because that's the closest we have to what the canon material says about who is who, but look, even now we're contesting it and trying to figure it out. It's what active readers do. I don't understand why this is something new to you.

So, then, what you're basically telling me is that Kishimoto himself is a shaky source at best, because what he doesn't say is perfectly capable of either contradicting or redirecting what he does say? And he clearly had something to say about this. Clearly, he has it set in stone that Sakura is stronger than Hinata on all fronts. So, again, what is the point of discussing this if you're against second-guessing Kishimoto's opinion on his own work? And if you're going to end up holding the data book in the highest regard as the final opinion, then doesn't that basically mean that every fan's opinions and speculations are completely irrelevant?

[FoolishYoungling]

Exactly. Therefore, this thread didn't even need to exist.

umadbro? :<

[PachucoDesigns]

umadbro? :<

Annoyed.

[CloudMountainJuror]

So, then, what you're basically telling me is that Kishimoto himself is a shaky source at best, because what he doesn't say is perfectly capable of either contradicting or redirecting what he does say? And he clearly had something to say about this. Clearly, he has it set in stone that Sakura is stronger than Hinata on all fronts. So, again, what is the point of discussing this if you're against second-guessing Kishimoto's opinion on his own work? And if you're going to end up holding the data book in the highest regard as the final opinion, then doesn't that basically mean that every fan's opinions and speculations are completely irrelevant?

Here's something that we can discuss in this thread that Kishi hasn't set in stone (and neither has the data book): who will be the strongest of the K-11 by the end of the series?

[Derock]

There is one thing I will have to add on: and it includes Naruto's placement.

If I add him in, the list changed on the top. And its another draw, but guess who? On the second placement, Naruto and Sakura are tied because both have the overall stat rating of 26 (Neji is 27). Alphabetical order, Naruto is second while Sakura is third.

But whenever databook 4 comes out, I highly expected Naruto's stats will increase dramatically.

[Darth Krypt]

Exactly. Therefore, this thread didn't even need to exist.

Right and all the other threads in this site. Its called speculation Pachuco. An exchange of opinions but with support from the manga. It may or may not be true but its not baseless points like what you've been giving all this while. You gave opinions but you didn't give support to them. If there's no support, then basically anything can be claimed. I'm still waiting for you to support your claim that Hinata can beat Sakura. Anything will do Pachuco. I just want to see at least one so I know your claims aren't baseless.

By the way you said it is obvious Neji is the strongest in K11. Why? He didn't fight every single one of them. So how did you come to that conclusion? Based on your iron logic, we aren't able to say Neji is the strongest because he didn't fight Shino, Kiba, Shikamaru etc. Do you get what I'm trying to say?

Edited by Darth Krypt, 30 March 2012 - 04:13 AM.

[FoolishYoungling]

There is one thing I will have to add on: and it includes Naruto's placement.

If I add him in, the list changed on the top. And its another draw, but guess who? On the second placement, Naruto and Sakura are tied because both have the overall stat rating of 26 (Neji is 27). Alphabetical order, Naruto is second while Sakura is third.

But whenever databook 4 comes out, I highly expected Naruto's stats will increase dramatically.

Neji is talented, kinda wanted Shikamaru to beat him though.. *tear*

[Broken Figurine]

So, then, what you're basically telling me is that Kishimoto himself is a shaky source at best, because what he doesn't say is perfectly capable of either contradicting or redirecting what he does say? And he clearly had something to say about this. Clearly, he has it set in stone that Sakura is stronger than Hinata on all fronts. So, again, what is the point of discussing this if you're against second-guessing Kishimoto's opinion on his own work? And if you're going to end up holding the data book in the highest regard as the final opinion, then doesn't that basically mean that every fan's opinions and speculations are completely irrelevant?

No, I am not saying that. I'm saying that he doesn't come out and answer every question out of the blue like "HEY, BTW, THIS COUPLE IS GOING TO BE CANON" or "YES, SASUKE WILL BE REDEEMED". He doesn't set things in stone. When he does, there usually isn't discussion, like now nobody will contest that Minato is Naruto's father even though some people did before it was revealed. Then, you have people who DISAGREE with Kishimoto's decisions, and don't like that. Everyone has opinions, but it is how they support those opinions that matter of convincing me and others about it.

Again, this is how any discussion works. If you feel that way, why join a forum? Why talk to anyone? It seems to me you don't know how conversations work.

I also didn't say that I hold the data book in the highest regard, but some people will. You might not. Most people want some substance, and that usually comes from the canon material, but sometimes it does not. The fan opinions and speculations that are relevant are the most compelling ones. You will find this everywhere. Learn.

[PachucoDesigns]

Here's something that we can discuss in this thread that Kishi hasn't set in stone (and neither has the data book): who will be the strongest of the K-11 by the end of the series?

Oh, he has it set in stone as to how the story will end. So I'm pretty sure he has it set in stone as to who will be the strongest, as well. And I'm sure we all know that it's going to boil down to either Sasuke or Naruto, so we can just sweep the others off of the board right now.

[CloudMountainJuror]

Oh, he has it set in stone as to how the story will end. So I'm pretty sure he has it set in stone as to who will be the strongest, as well. And I'm sure we all know that it's going to boil down to either Sasuke or Naruto, so we can just sweep the others off of the board right now.

Ok, so Sasuke or Naruto. It's still not guaranteed. He hasn't stated who it will be, and it hasn't been made clear in the manga, data books, or interviews. So there's something that can be discussed, speculated, etc.

[PachucoDesigns]

No, I am not saying that. I'm saying that he doesn't come out and answer every question out of the blue like "HEY, BTW, THIS COUPLE IS GOING TO BE CANON" or "YES, SASUKE WILL BE REDEEMED". He doesn't set things in stone. When he does, there usually isn't discussion, like now nobody will contest that Minato is Naruto's father even though some people did before it was revealed. Then, you have people who DISAGREE with Kishimoto's decisions, and don't like that. Everyone has opinions, but it is how they support those opinions that matter of convincing me and others about it.

Again, this is how any discussion works. If you feel that way, why join a forum? Why talk to anyone? It seems to me you don't know how conversations work.

I also didn't say that I hold the data book in the highest regard, but some people will. You might not. Most people want some substance, and that usually comes from the canon material, but sometimes it does not. The fan opinions and speculations that are relevant are the most compelling ones. You will find this everywhere. Learn.

Disagree with Kishimoto's decisions? In the Naruto universe, Kishimoto is god. They may be upset by it, but they are in no position to disagree. The characters, the world, the concepts, all of them belong to him and bend to his will.

If the databooks are not an absolute authority, then why are they to be trusted? If they are, then why is there a discussion at all? For fun? For unity? Clearly not. Because if anyone so much as suggests anything against the favored character, then that person will be shot down.

And I think it goes without saying that the most substance is going to be taken from the canon material. Even if that wasn't care, it wouldn't matter, because I've yet to see a hard core fan who will accept any reasoning from the fillers at all. As far as most of them are concerned, the fillers simply don't exist and shouldn't be given the time of day.

Edited by PachucoDesigns, 30 March 2012 - 04:21 AM.

[CloudMountainJuror]

Disagree with Kishimoto's decisions? In the Naruto universe, Kishimoto is god. They may be upset by it, but they are in no position to disagree. The characters, the world, the concepts, all of them belong to him and bend to his will.

By "disagree", he means "criticize", I think.

[Broken Figurine]

Disagree with Kishimoto's decisions? In the Naruto universe, Kishimoto is god. They may be upset by it, but they are in no position to disagree. The characters, the world, the concepts, all of them belong to him and bend to his will.

If the databooks are not an absolute authority, then why are they to be trusted? If they are, then why is there a discussion at all? For fun? For unity? Clearly not. Because if anyone so much as suggests anything against the favored character, then that person will be shot down.

Missing. my. point. You can apply this to anything. Yes, for fun. Yes, for unity, sometimes for opposition and yes, typically if you hold the minor opinion, you will face a lot of opposition from the majority view, but this is LIFE. People like expressing their opinion, and you know what? People are allowed to disagree with Kishimoto. He is not God, but he certainly is an authority on the subject. People don't always agree with things. But you know, I can say whatever the heck I want. I could say right now Naruto doesn't exist, and this manga is all a dream about some other character named Joe. I can make a thread, and I can say that, and people will ask me why I think that, and some people will tell me why that is absolutely ludicrous. Some people will say "hey, why not?". That's just how it works.

Oh my gosh. XD

[PachucoDesigns]

By "disagree", he means "criticize", I think.

They can criticize all they want, it won't amount to anything. And it is a double standard to criticize Kishimoto's direction on some points, yet use the data books as a crutch to defend others. It basically says that you only trust his judgment on points with which you agree or like. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. You either trust him as an author, or you do not.

[PachucoDesigns]

Missing. my. point. You can apply this to anything. Yes, for fun. Yes, for unity, sometimes for opposition and yes, typically if you hold the minor opinion, you will face a lot of opposition from the majority view, but this is LIFE. People like expressing their opinion, and you know what? People are allowed to disagree with Kishimoto. He is not God, but he certainly is an authority on the subject. People don't always agree with things. But you know, I can say whatever the heck I want. I could say right now Naruto doesn't exist, and this manga is all a dream about some other character named Joe. I can make a thread, and I can say that, and people will ask me why I think that, and some people will tell me why that is absolutely ludicrous. Some people will say "hey, why not?". That's just how it works.

Oh my gosh. XD

In the world that is solely of his creation and completely directed at his discretion, where his every desire is law, yes, he is God. There is only one true authority on this subject, and that would be Kishimoto, whether you like it or not. Only he knows what will happen, only he knows why. If you don't like it, tough rocks. It's his world, not yours. Not everyone stays a fan. If you're going to base your arguments on the reasoning of his world, then you are bound by that reasoning. Plain and simple. Because, in the end, the world of Naruto is anything he wants it to be.

If Kishimoto wanted Naruto to gut Sakura with a kunai in a blind rage, deciding that he never loved her and always wanted to see her die, who could stop him? He won't, I'm sure. He didn't work things out this way for nothing. But my point is, he can, and there's nothing the fans can do about it. If you acknowledge him as the only authority of what happens in his world, and if you acknowledge that the data books are his final word, then there is no discussion to be had. Any question like this, then, is a loaded one, and it's only put there to celebrate the favorite character.

Edited by PachucoDesigns, 30 March 2012 - 04:32 AM.

[Darth Krypt]

Going to ignore my post I see. I expected better things from you Pachuco seeing that you're an intelligent guy. I'm disappointed.

[PachucoDesigns]

Going to ignore my post I see. I expected better things from you Pachuco seeing that you're an intelligent guy. I'm disappointed.

Darth Krypt, don't patronize me. I think we both know that you had formed your opinion on me quite a while ago. So let's save ourselves the trouble and end our replies to one another here, shall we?

I'll tell you what, I will address your post. But not on the topic of Sakura versus Hinata, because I would say that moment has passed. Both approaches, appeal to authority and fan speculation, have a purpose. But you cannot mix and match, otherwise it's pointless. You cannot ask "Who do you think is strongest," expecting a discussion based on opinion, and then run to the data books to put an end to it. It defeats the entire purpose. So pick a path and stick to it, or don't bother. Kishimoto says Hinata is the weaker of the two. What difference do my opinions make now?

Edited by PachucoDesigns, 30 March 2012 - 04:41 AM.

[Broken Figurine]

I'm not really bothering any further beyond this, but if you want to really talk to anyone on anything you can't have that point of view. According to you, sites like this, and everyone's opinion, is moot point. I don't know how many times I need to tell you it is about how you support your argument that matters in a discussion. The bottom line is, you're expecting something out of this that others don't. I don't even know what you want anymore, and frankly, I don't care anymore. You have your opinions, and I'm done trying to share mine with you. It's the only respectful way to conclude this.

[PachucoDesigns]

I'm not really bothering any further beyond this, but if you want to really talk to anyone on anything you can't have that point of view. According to you, sites like this, and everyone's opinion, is moot point. I don't know how many times I need to tell you it is about how you support your argument that matters in a discussion. The bottom line is, you're expecting something out of this that others don't. I don't even know what you want anymore, and frankly, I don't care anymore. You have your opinions, and I'm done trying to share mine with you. It's the only respectful way to conclude this.

No one's opinions are a moot point. But if you're going to run to the data book to prove something, then they might as well be. Because by doing so, you're basically saying "I don't care what you say, cuz Kishi says..." That's fine. If you don't want to discuss this anymore, no one is twisting your arm.

Edited by PachucoDesigns, 30 March 2012 - 04:43 AM.