277 replies to this topic

[ciardha]

Hm, Tsunade could've been pregnant. What an interesting idea, I've never given that much thought. Your second one is also plausible, because I read somewhere that in some extreme situations(extreme wish for a child for example) it is indeed possible for the body to start mimicking the side effects of pregnancy.

Yeah, I'm leaning toward Tsunade gave herself a false pregnancy. I like that theory so much a one shot fanfic with that premise just popped right into my head.

[K9ofChaos]

She was "flat-chested" when they were around 12 or so, but by 16 Tsunade was already what looked like a D cup (when Nawaki died) she was still that the when she was dating/engaged to Dan (in her twenties). We don't see her after Dan's death until shes around 37. Jiraiya alluded to her grief made her breasts bigger, but they didn't when Nawaki or Jiraiya died.

I'm very strongly suspecting Tsunade was pregnant (very early along, perhaps didn't even know for sure yet) when Dan was killed (earlier along than even Kurenai was when Asuma died- my guess Kurenai was about 2-3 months along- they both knew she was but she wasn't showing even a little bump yet- even in that tight skirt she had on at the cemetery)

A woman's breasts enlarge about a cup size during her first pregnancy and sometimes stay permanently that size. Tsunade realized she was pregnant after Dan's death, but miscarried before the baby was born, we know the grief over Dan made her a bit "off" so doing something to her body that resulted in her breasts staying permanently their pregnancy size. Or it could have been she deluded herself that she was pregnant out of her extreme grief- and being a medic-nin subconsciously altering her body to mimic early pregnancy, with the same permanent results.

Sakura's about B cup, that's her adult breast size, which is average for a Japanese woman- Sakura's build is very much like the traditional Japanese concept of female beauty. Kishimoto has emphasized all along how Sakura is supposed to be like a normal (Japanese) girl. I doubt he'll have her breasts get larger- except as maybe a permanent aftereffect of pregnancy. If so, likely only to Kushina's pregnancy size- about a C cup. (That's about what Kurenai's is too)

So you're saying Kushina was a B cup just like Sakura when she was younger, right? I ask this because it was a little difficult for me to tell since the shirt that she wore during her flashback made her seem a little more "busty" then Sakura was at that age. Or maybe it was just my perception skills being too analytical or screwing up on me. On another note I could see Sakura going from a B cup to C cup due to pregnancy (Naruto being the father of course) with a child or two. But not as large as Tsunade because that would be overkill in my opinion.


Not to mention that I hope Sakura's transition from B cup to C cup happens because it would serve to make the parallel between narusaku and minakushi even more apparent. Plus there would be the added bonus that the argument that Naruto should be with Hinata because she has bigger breast would no longer be valid as an excuse to call Sakura flat-chested. Sure Adult Hinata's breast would still be bigger but at least they wouldn't be able to claim that Sakura is flat when it would be apparent that Adult Sakura is a C cup. Though that argument was never really a strong one because a guy's love for a girl shouldn't really be determined by the girls breast size as the number one factor for the guy's attraction.


Sure it may be nice if she had big breast but a guy's affection for a girl should depend more on if she has a good personality, fun to spend time with or she's attractive just the way she is despite having small or large breast. If your a male and all your concerned about when it comes to females is their breast size then I would guess that you don't have much going for yourself. I say this because I think a guy who just cares about a girls sex appeal and breast size is a very shallow and horny person who lets lust get the better of him and dictate how his relationships (if he even has any to begin with unless he's a womanizer) are and who they are with.


Those are just my opinions of course.

[Super Boom]

She was "flat-chested" when they were around 12 or so, but by 16 Tsunade was already what looked like a D cup (when Nawaki died) she was still that the when she was dating/engaged to Dan (in her twenties). We don't see her after Dan's death until shes around 37. Jiraiya alluded to her grief made her breasts bigger, but they didn't when Nawaki or Jiraiya died.

I'm very strongly suspecting Tsunade was pregnant (very early along, perhaps didn't even know for sure yet) when Dan was killed (earlier along than even Kurenai was when Asuma died- my guess Kurenai was about 2-3 months along- they both knew she was but she wasn't showing even a little bump yet- even in that tight skirt she had on at the cemetery)

A woman's breasts enlarge about a cup size during her first pregnancy and sometimes stay permanently that size. Tsunade realized she was pregnant after Dan's death, but miscarried before the baby was born, we know the grief over Dan made her a bit "off" so doing something to her body that resulted in her breasts staying permanently their pregnancy size. Or it could have been she deluded herself that she was pregnant out of her extreme grief- and being a medic-nin subconsciously altering her body to mimic early pregnancy, with the same permanent results.

Ha ha wow, I've never even considered that sort of reason for Tsunade's large breast size. I definitely think you might be on to something though. I don't know about the 'deluding herself into a false pregnancy' idea, but I guess that's because the idea seems very foreign to me. It seems more like something I'd expect to see on House M.D. than Naruto.

I'm not necessarily discounting that idea, but I'm more leaning towards her having a miscarriage. The only thing that bugs me about this idea is why it wasn't ever mentioned. Maybe Kishi was originally going to add something else to Tsunade's tragic past, but his editor told him that'd be overkill? *shrugs* I guess her story was definitely sad enough already.
It could even be the case that Tsunade sees her unborn child in Naruto, as well as Nawaki.

Actually it IS possible that drastic changes happen, not that I want it.

Yeah, it'd be weird in my opinion, but seeing Sakura with G-cups after another timeskip definitely wouldn't be the weirdest thing I've ever seen in a manga/anime. I'd hope Kishi is above that sort of thing though, I think it's easier to call your main heroine a 'realistic girl' when the girl actually looks realistic.

Edited by Boom...Winning, 01 July 2011 - 11:28 PM.

[Phantom_999]

So you're saying Kushina was a B cup just like Sakura when she was younger, right? I ask this because it was a little difficult for me to tell since the shirt that she wore during her flashback made her seem a little more "busty" then Sakura was at that age. Or maybe it was just my perception skills being too analytical or screwing up on me. On another note I could see Sakura going from a B cup to C cup due to pregnancy (Naruto being the father of course) with a child or two. But not as large as Tsunade because that would be overkill in my opinion.


Not to mention that I hope Sakura's transition from B cup to C cup happens because it would serve to make the parallel between narusaku and minakushi even more apparent. Plus there would be the added bonus that the argument that Naruto should be with Hinata because she has bigger breast would no longer be valid as an excuse to call Sakura flat-chested. Sure Adult Hinata's breast would still be bigger but at least they wouldn't be able to claim that Sakura is flat when it would be apparent that Adult Sakura is a C cup. Though that argument was never really a strong one because a guy's love for a girl shouldn't really be determined by the girls breast size as the number one factor for the guy's attraction.


Sure it may be nice if she had big breast but a guy's affection for a girl should depend more on if she has a good personality, fun to spend time with or she's attractive just the way she is despite having small or large breast. If your a male and all your concerned about when it comes to females is their breast size then I would guess that you don't have much going for yourself. I say this because I think a guy who just cares about a girls sex appeal and breast size is a very shallow and horny person who lets lust get the better of him and dictate how his relationships (if he even has any to begin with unless he's a womanizer) are and who they are with.


Those are just my opinions of course.

Well I mostly agree if you only look for sex appeal you're not gonna find a great girl or things won't work out at all yeah but I don't think its because guys are shallow its just something with their nature..... I think on all gender sociology related books I've read all guys without exception look for physical attraction in females. Now why, i do not know... well maybe ii do buts lets not go there okay? Anyways its actually based on their preferences Not every guy is looking for the stereotypical "model or super star" type and they do care about personality and connecting besides I've seen girls be picky about how a guy looks too now back on topic. Guys say its not only physical attraction they say that if the girl is similar to them and they connect easily they'll go for it> SO bottom line is its not about being shallow unless You ONLY concern your self with a girl or woman's appearance then you'll be shunned.

[tricksie]

Meanwhile, back on topic....

Thought more about Hinata's character today, and I think what is frustrating to me about her and her fanbase is that I see Hinata as a completely necessary, role-fulfilling character, but not a main character worthy of development. She is a trope, a tool, a means-to-an-end. She was inserted into the story by the author to increase the suspense around the main character.

But the fanbase has taken her role to another level, hoping, wishing that she will overtake Sakura in importance.

However, I also think that b.s. about Kishimoto not being able to write romance is just that. B.S. He doesn't write lovey-dovey stuff but he nows how to inject suspense into the storyline. And to do that he needs Hinata. I can see why he'd be irritated with the outright worship of her, yet he must be pleased that his secondary character has paid off so well. And he brings her out just enough to keep her memory alive for her fans.

To me, her most important role in the manga is as a means of reflecting development back on the main characters. And that's why she's had none. She doesn't need any. It's not in her job description as shrinking violet.

Another interesting snippet from tvtropes:

Ms. Fanservice: Oddly enough, Hinata is used this way by the anime, more than once. Few can forget the debut of sparkly Magical Girl Sailor Hinata, supposedly 13, dancing naked on top of a waterfall in the filler Bikochu arc. She's also been sighted wearing revealing Christmas-bunny outfits in omakes. And she had her jacket pulled open twice to perform some medical stuff on her (the second is actually from the manga), showing her larger-than-expected breasts (and that she's wearing a Spy Catsuit / some chainmail). Not bad for a girl who never wears skirts or anything even slightly revealing.

Think about it: Her boobs are the only thing holding her up. If you took those away, made her flat chested, I bet the fan-base would deflate too. In making her a character solely to worship the hero, it makes perfect sense to give her big curves. It is another device to make a negligible character noticeable.

Edited by tricksie, 02 July 2011 - 03:21 AM.

[Phantom_999]

I've got nothing to add to that

[ciardha]

So you're saying Kushina was a B cup just like Sakura when she was younger, right? I ask this because it was a little difficult for me to tell since the shirt that she wore during her flashback made her seem a little more "busty" then Sakura was at that age.

We don't see her after about age 11- when she was still flat chested. (although the scene with Mito appears to possibly be somewhat later, and there's possibly a hint of maybe around A cup breasts and the beginning of a hip curve- like Sakura at the end of part 1), until she was in late pregnancy with Naruto in her 20's, but based on her breasts being around C cup size in pregnancy it's likely pre pregnancy she was B cup.

[catsi563]

I've got nothing to add to that

I do.

specifically it pertains to this notion

I see Hinata as a completely necessary, role-fulfilling character

She is not even remotely necessary as a side character. one thing I keep having to remind hinata fans of repeatedly. There is not a single appearance shed made that could not be done with any other character in the manga. She as a whole is entirely irelevant to the plot. Hell even her big moment in the chunin exams could easilly have been replace dby Rock Lee with the underdog angle being the focus rather then the branch/main household rivalry, and Gaara could have absolutely obliterated Dosu as an out right display of power.

remove Hinata from any scene shes in and I all but guarantee you you can find another character who fills the scene in as well if not better.

[Derock]

She is not even remotely necessary as a side character. one thing I keep having to remind hinata fans of repeatedly. There is not a single appearance shed made that could not be done with any other character in the manga. She as a whole is entirely irelevant to the plot. Hell even her big moment in the chunin exams could easilly have been replace dby Rock Lee with the underdog angle being the focus rather then the branch/main household rivalry, and Gaara could have absolutely obliterated Dosu as an out right display of power.

remove Hinata from any scene shes in and I all but guarantee you you can find another character who fills the scene in as well if not better.

Yep. This statement backups with my earlier statement of what would've happen if Kishimoto went to his original purpose for Hinata, as a very minor character (civilian). But then again, it will radically change everything, especially with the main/branch rivalry, cause that would be nonexistant to the plot, not to mention Neji's purpose and personality whenever he fights Naruto in the final rounds.

[Greed-Sama]

Yep. This statement backups with my earlier statement of what would've happen if Kishimoto went to his original purpose for Hinata, as a very minor character (civilian). But then again, it will radically change everything, especially with the main/branch rivalry, cause that would be nonexistant to the plot, not to mention Neji's purpose and personality whenever he fights Naruto in the final rounds.

Might change a few things, but as catsi said. As a whole the majority of the manga would be left unscathed. Even without the Hinata/Neji fight. Neji could have still explained the branch/family thing during the final round and that one can't change his or her fate still resulting in a very similar conclusion.

[tricksie]

She is not even remotely necessary as a side character. one thing I keep having to remind hinata fans of repeatedly. There is not a single appearance shed made that could not be done with any other character in the manga. She as a whole is entirely irelevant to the plot. Hell even her big moment in the chunin exams could easilly have been replace dby Rock Lee with the underdog angle being the focus rather then the branch/main household rivalry, and Gaara could have absolutely obliterated Dosu as an out right display of power.

remove Hinata from any scene shes in and I all but guarantee you you can find another character who fills the scene in as well if not better.

Wrong, and completely sidestepping the point of my post.

Hinata's role is to worship the hero and fan the flames of the pairing. That role is crucial to the story as Kishi has written it. it cannot be dropped or replaced.

In the same way Sakura is the vehicle for a "real girl" viewpoint, Hinata is the vehicle for the hero's adoration in the manga. She represents all the villagers, all the people who will come to love him from afar. But her most important function is to sharpen the suspense around Naruto's love life. No other background character could do that. You could not swap out another and get the same effect. Hinata was created for that.

I don't care about the tasks she's performed in the manga, and it's not relevant to the point. Because even as a civilian, as he originally intended, Hinata could have had the same impact on the main characters. Her role is to worship the hero and make waves for the main pairing. In that, she cannot be replaced.

[Gravenimage]

Wrong, and completely sidestepping the point of my post.

Hinata's role is to worship the hero and fan the flames of the pairing. That role is crucial to the story as Kishi has written it. it cannot be dropped or replaced.

In the same way Sakura is the vehicle for a "real girl" viewpoint, Hinata is the vehicle for the hero's adoration in the manga. She represents all the villagers, all the people who will come to love him from afar. But her most important function is to sharpen the suspense around Naruto's love life. No other background character could do that. You could not swap out another and get the same effect. Hinata was created for that.

I don't care about the tasks she's performed in the manga, and it's not relevant to the point. Because even as a civilian, as he originally intended, Hinata could have had the same impact on the main characters. Her role is to worship the hero and make waves for the main pairing. In that, she cannot be replaced.

I agreed with you tricksie but there is a limit one can take Kishimoto did at the 2009 Jump Fiesta interview when he read those angry NH fan letters bashing Sakura till no end. Hianta is just another minor character to worship the protagonist and add more drama to the series but the fans take it the wrong way and they overdo it. For example thinking that Hinata is really the heroine of the manga and she's destine to be with the protagonist not caring how little interaction she has had with him, some think that she's really the protagonist and the manga is really called "Hinata" others are brainwashed by the fan made doujins they read online (aka NH chronicles) and they eventually believe themselves that they are reading the official manga written by Kishimoto and that's what leads them to believe it's going to be 100% NH in the end.

In addition with her sex appeal with the purpose to increase fan service (her big boobs) this is why people worship the fictional ground Hinata walks on and they treat her like a goddess (I am not kidding they really do see her as Jesus Christ).

[tricksie]

I agreed with you tricksie but there is a limit one can take Kishimoto did at the 2009 Jump Fiesta interview when he read those angry NH fan letters bashing Sakura till no end. Hianta is just another minor character to worship the protagonist and add more drama to the series but the fans take it the wrong way and they overdo it. For example thinking that Hinata is really the heroine of the manga and she's destine to be with the protagonist not caring how little interaction she has had with him, some think that she's really the protagonist and the manga is really called "Hinata" others are brainwashed by the fan made doujins they read online (aka NH chronicles) and they eventually believe themselves that they are reading the official manga written by Kishimoto and that's what leads them to believe it's going to be 100% NH in the end.

In addition with her sex appeal with the purpose to increase fan service (her big boobs) this is why people worship the fictional ground Hinata walks on and they treat her like a goddess (I am not kidding they really do see her as Jesus Christ).

Exactly. And the fact the Kishimoto keeps inserting her into the manga, and linking her blatantly to Naruto illustrates my point. If he were truly finished with her, then he wouldn't feature her in the manga anymore (or only show her as he did in Naruto's reflection on his friends, when Hinata has her back turned).

But he is still sticking her in there, with the prime focus being her thoughts of Naruto. This is from the author, not the fanbase. The last chapter with Sakura thinking of Sasuke and Hinata thinking of Naruto was only pandering to shipping. It was wisely left open to interpretation, so the fans can assign any emotion they choose to the moment.

So the fact the he's come out and implied he doesn't like her, but continues to put her in the manga, says to me that she is a character created to fulfill a specific role in the manga. She keeps the pairing suspense alive. That is her assigned slot in the manga. She is simply a creator's device.

What I'm saying, in a nutshell, is that Kishimoto knows what he's doing. And he may hate the way the fans idolize her, but he's not going to stop it now. She's good for business.

[Gravenimage]

Exactly. And the fact the Kishimoto keeps inserting her into the manga, and linking her blatantly to Naruto illustrates my point. If he were truly finished with her, then he wouldn't feature her in the manga anymore (or only show her as he did in Naruto's reflection on his friends, when Hinata has her back turned).

But he is still sticking her in there, with the prime focus being her thoughts of Naruto. This is from the author, not the fanbase. The last chapter with Sakura thinking of Sasuke and Hinata thinking of Naruto was only pandering to shipping. It was wisely left open to interpretation, so the fans can assign any emotion they choose to the moment.

So the fact the he's come out and implied he doesn't like her, but continues to put her in the manga, says to me that she is a character created to fulfill a specific role in the manga. She keeps the pairing suspense alive. That is her assigned slot in the manga. She is simply a creator's device.

What I'm saying, in a nutshell, is that Kishimoto knows what he's doing. And he may hate the way the fans idolize her, but he's not going to stop it now. She's good for business.

Right keep the fandom guessing what pairing will be in the end but with the big development between Naruto and Sakura in the entire manga it is not necessary to guess which it's going to be the pairing.

[Phantom_999]

And that tricksie, though it is effective, is what's getting Sakura bashed in the first place well one of Many reasons but this is the most recent fuel for her bashing WHICH is what Kishimoto was trying to REVERSE or prevent. he HATED how a lot of fans were viewing his heroine negatively while adoring and applauding Hinata who wasn't even supposed to be a kunoichi in the first place so you'd have to wonder WHY? even if its to keep the readers guessing about the pairings he should have foreseen that Sakura would be portrayed even more negatively and is now being bashed on more than ever and NH/SS fans are Cha-Cha-Chaing in their rooms and it DEFINITELY was devastating for NS fans remember ( I went into cardiac arrest )? When I think about it probably Sakura is being hated on so much is because of her fan girl personality with Sasuke I bet it was annoying to fans to see her like that because they always found it so superficial and and annoying while also giving Naruto such a hard time at first, that they wanted wanted to ram their fist in her throat and became haters. Now this just is my theory and I know that she has a hate base because she's a tsundere but I'm guessing that her Sasuke Fan girl phase is the other side of why she is so negatively received and why many people don't want to accept NS because they are constantly reminded of her crush on Sasuke because of her thinking about him and they probably scream in their minds " IF YOU'RE SO OBSSESSED WITH SASUKE THEN GET WITH SASUKE AND LEAVE NARUTO ALONE BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT WORTH TO HIM FOR ALL THE YOU DID TO HIM YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i'm pretty sure thats the gist of it Of course though that is the impression that they got from the ANIME

Edited by Phantom_999, 02 July 2011 - 09:16 PM.

[Super Boom]

What I'm saying, in a nutshell, is that Kishimoto knows what he's doing. And he may hate the way the fans idolize her, but he's not going to stop it now. She's good for business.

I actually agree with this. As far as her backstory and clan conflict goes, Hinata's role in the plot could easily be filled by any any other character, but her 'crush on the hero' status is something that basically defines her. Admittedly, it's a pretty shallow character aspect, but it definitely has a certain appeal to many fans. It also makes her a definite foil to Sakura, the actual romantic interest of the series. Sakura's initial dislike for Naruto is very easily contrasted with Hinata's static feelings for him throughout the series. Again, this has an appeal to many fans, but as we've seen in several relationships throughout this series, the best example being the Minato/Kushina pairing, Kishi seems to prefer dynamic romantic development over static development (I think that might be an oxymoron, LOL). If Kishi was really going to use Hinata for anything more than building romantic tension, he would have fleshed out the NaruHina pairing a little more than what he has already.

Even her confession, which would have been the perfect time to increase the character's role as a love interest, proved to be basically a dramatic scene prior to the typical "pain of loss" moment. Plus, the whole thing seemed to revert back to NaruSaku in the end, at least from my perspective. Sakura was shown to be visibly upset with the fact that Hinata loved Naruto (I've seen multiple translations, but I believe that Sakura realizing Hinata's feelings was the main implication). And of course, even after the dramatic confession, the arc ended with one of the most romantic hugs this series has had so far. So it doesn't seem to me that Hinata's role in the plot, at least from a shipping perspective, is to be anything more a tool to create drama and point out the true pairing of the series.

On that note, I'd love to see Hinata play cupid for Naruto and Sakura in the end. I wonder how many people on this site would become Hinata fans overnight, LOL.

Edited by Boom...Winning, 02 July 2011 - 04:34 PM.

[ShippudenGirl]

I still wouldn't be a Hinata fan... Just like how Hinata fans will never be Sakura fans (they see her as a threat to their pairing). It's not about NaruHina or whatever, Hinata's character just annoys me. I admire her confidence against Pain, though, but that was another (obvious) fail. I just don't like shy characters; I like the outgoing, confident (and a little innocent) characters ;P

[Darth Krypt]

I think Hinata fans are people who sympathizes with her. They saw this cute(?), shy girl deeply in love with Naruto and found it cute the way she blushes around him. And so they started to support her and emotionally encouraged her thinking things like "cmon Hinata, go for it!" and rooted for them to be together. They become attached to her character. But unfortunately, they didn't even think about how Naruto feels and that is why I see them as selfish. Its like your close friend like this boy and so you tried to set them up but when the boy rejects her, you'll be mad and say things like "why won't you like her??!" and insists the boy should return her feelings. So they'll hate anyone who'll be the obstacle which is Sakura. They start bashing her and hoping that NaruSasu will happen. That's why I find NH is more to personal feelings rather than story logic. So there is no use trying to convince a NH fan unless they change their personal feelings.

I hope I made my point clear enough to understand.

Edited by Darth Krypt, 02 July 2011 - 06:40 PM.

[Gravenimage]

Yeah, I still wouldn't be a Hinata fan. But I strongly hope she won't play cupid. Sure she can come to terms with them together and even be happy for them, but giving then a push would be just wrong. Don't like the idea.

As a NS fan I don't see Hinata as a threat because we all know Naruto would never love her. He has proved it dozens of times that he will always love Sakura he has shown it since ch 3 to this very day.

[Phantom_999]

I think Hinata fans are people who sympathizes with her. They saw this cute(?), shy girl deeply in love with Naruto and found it cute the way she blushes around him. And so they started to support her and emotionally encouraged her thinking things like "cmon Hinata, go for it!" and rooted for them to be together. They become attached to her character. But unfortunately, they didn't even think about how Naruto feels and that is why I see them as selfish. Its like your close friend like this boy and so you tried to set them up but when the boy rejects her, you'll be mad and say things like "why won't you like her??!" and insists the boy should return her feelings. So they'll hate anyone who'll be the obstacle which is Sakura. They start bashing her and hoping that NaruSasu will happen. That's why I find NH is more to personal feelings rather than story logic. So there is no use trying to convince a NH fan unless they change their personal feelings.

I hope I made my point clear enough to understand.

That AND they just HATE Sakura's guts for being an "obnoxious Sasuke Fan Girl" as they see I think That's the defining view of many Sakura haters and NH fans I bet